Corvus Belli

Member
Nov 25, 2017
188
370
While you are right, in this case, the guy in charge of the whole system owes us a bit of a favor
Indeed he does, and Runey is absolutely moving things towards a resolution in lines with what you're thinking. It's just not "realistic" in any way. One person, no matter their position in government, cannot change an entire cultures or legal system to their whim. If we were asking for the MC and his elves to get special treatment, that'd actually be pretty feasible (ignoring the fact that we'd have to hide who some of those elves are, as Cromwell doesn't know we have Sylvia, who ran away from him, and he wouldn't be okay with us keeping his very rare stolen property); changing the lot for all elves is a lot less feasible.

Also, at some point in the future, we will be taking over Kali's dad's company, and that will make us a very powerful man.
Indeed, we'd be the HH equivalent of Jeff Bezos. A wealthy, powerful individual, certainly, with great influence, but nowhere near enough to make an entire legal system suddenly declare a slave species to qualify for human rights, and end that slavery, especially when the cultures entire economy and technological development has been facilitated by that slavery, which Runey has said is the case. To use a real world analogy; is Warren Buffett wealthy enough to make the Russian government repeal all it's homophobic laws? That'd be a very easy thing to do, in comparison to what we're discussing.

Again, to be clear, I agree with you on what is likely to occur in the game, it's just not very realistic, and that's fine.
Runey's story thus far hasn't really been constrained by what's likely, just what he wants. He's been honest about that from the get-go. How did Lin remain a virgin for three hundred years in a society in which she was viewed as property? Because Runey said she did, because he thinks virginity is hot, and realism be damned. That's it; he's not hidden that fact when asked, and I for one appreciate the honesty. There are other examples, but they're points of contention which have already been discussed ad nauseam, and I have no desire to rekindle that fire. I do not agree with some of Runey's decisions in the story, but it's his narrative; I'm just having a discussion about the plausibility of some potential future events.
 
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TheDevian

Svengali Productions
Game Developer
Mar 8, 2018
13,760
32,327
Indeed he does, and Runey is absolutely moving things towards a resolution in lines with what you're thinking. It's just not "realistic" in any way. One person, no matter their position in government, cannot change an entire cultures or legal system to their whim. If we were asking for the MC and his elves to get special treatment, that'd actually be pretty feasible (ignoring the fact that we'd have to hide who some of those elves are, as Cromwell doesn't know we have Sylvia, who ran away from him, and he wouldn't be okay with us keeping his very rare stolen property); changing the lot for all elves is a lot less feasible.


Indeed, we'd be the HH equivalent of Jeff Bezos. A wealthy, powerful individual, certainly, with great influence, but nowhere near enough to make an entire legal system suddenly declare a slave species to qualify for human rights, and end that slavery, especially when the cultures entire economy and technological development has been facilitated by that slavery, which Runey has said is the case. To use a real world analogy; is Warren Buffett wealthy enough to make the Russian government repeal all it's homophobic laws? That'd be a very easy thing to do, in comparison to what we're discussing.

Again, to be clear, I agree with you on what is likely to occur in the game, it's just not very realistic, and that's fine.
Runey's story thus far hasn't really been constrained by what's likely, just what he wants. He's been honest about that from the get-go. How did Lin remain a virgin for three hundred years in a society in which she was viewed as property? Because Runey said she did, because he thinks virginity is hot, and realism be damned. That's it; he's not hidden that fact when asked, and I for one appreciate the honesty. There are other examples, but they're points of contention which have already been discussed ad nauseam, and I have no desire to open rekindle that fire. I do not agree with some of Runey's decisions in the story, but it's his narrative; I'm just having a discussion about the plausability of some potential future events.
I never said change policy at a whim, none of this is or has been quick. It has been a slow process... Sylvia was not stolen from him, she ran, got captured again, and we legally bought her.

I never said we could use our power to suddenly declare elves have full rights, but we have enough pull to get Ren, which is all I ever said, not sure where you are getting there rest of this.

As for changing the rights of the elves, that is a slow process that could take many years, but it is due to his influence that it happened. If you don't think so, go read the side story.

How did Lin remain a virgin? A combination of luck and cute looks (I know I could never rape her). The people who owned her before either wanted her for other things, or just were not into loli elf maids. Maybe they were women, gay, only into busty women, who knows? Unlikely as it is, it's far from impossible.
 

Corvus Belli

Member
Nov 25, 2017
188
370
I never said change policy at a whim, none of this is or has been quick.
No, you did not say at a whim, I did. Because that's what it would be; when you met Cornwall in the street, he was very clear that his way was the right way. Totally unsolicited, he called Lin "pitiful", presumed that you'd make her get breast implants if only you weren't too poor to afford them, and was legitimately horrified that she spoke without being spoke to. In point of fact, he assumes she's mentally challenged; it was just before the choice to punch him that you're not allowed to follow through on. Going from that attitude to instituting full rights for elves after only a few in-game months is essentially acting on a whim.
You said none of this has been quick, but it actually has been. For three hundred years, elves had no rights at all; Cornwall is the one who gave them their current grab-bag of rights, according to Runey. Cornwall is in his mid fifties, and there is no way he was in a position to give the elves rights when he was in his twenties; let's be really generous and say he was mid-thirties. A species going from "no rights at all" to "full rights on par with humans" in twenty years is shockingly quick.

Sylvia was not stolen from him, she ran, got captured again, and we legally bought her.
I didn't say she was stolen from him; I said she is stolen property. There's an important distinction between the two, legally speaking, though I acknowledge that the distinction might be a little unclear for people without a legal education, and I probably should have been more clear. Mea culpa. Stolen property is property unlawfully taken from its rightful owner; Cornwall is her rightful owner, and she unlawfully fled from him.
Cornwall never gave up his ownership of Sylvia; she was a slave, who ran away from her legal owner. That means he remains her legal owner. No half-way sensible legal system would say "your slave ran away, so it's not yours anymore, so we're going to re-sell it" - that would be absurd. The MC gave the government money in exchange for Sylvia, yes, but only because no-one knew she was an escaped slave; the MC did not legally purchase her, because she wasn't in a position to legally be sold.
Remember the kidnap event? Their plan involves the HHI, a program for unclaimed elves; only they're not unclaimed elves, they're runaways. Not the same thing, and they know it; they presented themselves to the HHI under false pretenses. Nia literally says "Once Cornwall finds us, it's over".
Think of it this way; if your pet runs away, gets picked up and re-sold, and you can prove it was yours, guess who gets to keep the pet. Now imagine that was a one-of-a-kind pet, and the property of an important government official. Who do you think the law would side with in that situation?
The problem, of course, is that Runey hasn't actually explained how this system works, and hasn't thought it through all that well. As an example, an elf goes to the HHI, says they're unclaimed, and the HHI doesn't check they're telling the truth? Sylvia was absolutely claimed, by Cornwall, but no-one thought to verify her story? Nia also says "The HHI keeps everything a secret, so he won't know we chose you," but how exactly do they keep the elves owner secret, while also requiring all elves to have a registered owner?

As for changing the rights of the elves, that is a slow process that could take many years, but it is due to his influence that it happened.
I'm well aware of that, and I think I may have even mentioned it during this discussion. But he pushed for legislation for the rights he thought appropriate, that doesn't mean he'd push any further. There is a world of difference between "they're living things which shouldn't be needlessly abused" and "they're a sapient species equally worthy of respect and rights as humans". Again, go play Lin's story event where you first meet him, and then ask yourself if that person deciding that elves deserve to be included under HH's equivalent of the UDHR seems plausible? Is it possible it'll happen in the game? Absolutely, but it'd be a shockingly sudden change of opinion on his part.

I never said we could use our power to suddenly declare elves have full rights, but we have enough pull to get Ren, which is all I ever said, not sure where you are getting there rest of this.
My apologies if I misunderstood you, but what you said was "This is exactly why, as they gain more rights, her best interests should be considered as well". Who is the "they" in that scenario, who you expect to gain more rights, if not elves in general? If you meant some other hypothetical group gaining more rights, please correct me, but I think my conclusion that you were referring to elves gaining more rights was a reasonable one. And you clearly expect it to happen in the timeframe of the game, or you wouldn't bring it up in a discussion on how to get Mrs. Rin.

How did Lin remain a virgin? A combination of luck and cute looks
A nice theory, but also not true. Lin remained a virgin because Runey said she did. The end. Runey has said, blatantly, that it's not a realistic idea, it's just the one he wanted, because he thinks virginity is hot. That's not supposition on my part; he has literally said that.
I'm not sure you've understood my point, and perhaps I'm not being as clear as I think I am. I'm not saying these things cannot be included in the story; I'm saying they're not realistic. Can they happen in Runey's story? Of course they can, because he controls the narrative. But he cannot change how plausible they are. In the same vein, the MCs grandfather was apparently able to accidentally create a sentient robot, despite having no real technical aptitude, but no-one else in the entire world has? One individual managed it, while the rest of the entire robotics industry on the planet hasn't, in nearly thirty years? Is it what happened in HH? Yes, it is. Is it realistic? God, no. Did it make for a touching story? I'd say so, yes.

Unlikely as it is, it's far from impossible.
I didn't say it was impossible, I said it wasn't very realistic, and it sounds to me like you agree with me. Though we disagree that it's "far from impossible"; personally, I'd say it's pretty close to impossible. It's tremendously implausible that someone could go three hundred years in the slave trade without being abused by someone; perhaps not one of her owner, but certainly someone involved in the trade. Women in the real world slave trade, either the modern one or the one centuries ago, would be lucky to go a year without it happening, because people are terrible, and slavers are especially so.
 

Havik79

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2019
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Yep, I'd buy that for a dollar, hell what man wouldn't want a virgin to teach and train, who wants to throw a kabana up a hallway.
 
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TomberryDude

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
1,459
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Yeah, that's my fault. I like to wonder how things in fiction would work if they were real, or wouldn't work, as the case may be; it's a rather aggravating tendency, and makes me an absolute nightmare to watch TV shows with.
I think it's cool, I do it too. I like thinking about how things work and I like when a world makes sense in its own context. It helps immersion and shit.
 

HSHS1111

Active Member
Feb 8, 2019
888
1,395
Yeah, that's my fault. I like to wonder how things in fiction would work if they were real, or wouldn't work, as the case may be; it's a rather aggravating tendency, and makes me an absolute nightmare to watch TV shows with.
Haha. Don't worry about it. That was meant to be tongue in cheek. This thread is about discussing HH after all.

Originally all I wanted to say there's an in game reasons why we as MC don't just buy Ms Ren and there are out of game reasons why it's unlikely Runey will add her in the near future.

If/When he decides to let it happen there's plenty of ways it can go down. The easiest being that the government program gets cancelled and she ends up on the open market. Of course there's also plenty of opportunity to involve other characters, flesh out relationships or do some more world building around it.
 

TheDevian

Svengali Productions
Game Developer
Mar 8, 2018
13,760
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No, you did not say at a whim, I did. Because that's what it would be; when you met Cornwall in the street, he was very clear that his way was the right way. Totally unsolicited, he called Lin "pitiful", presumed that you'd make her get breast implants if only you weren't too poor to afford them, and was legitimately horrified that she spoke without being spoke to. In point of fact, he assumes she's mentally challenged; it was just before the choice to punch him that you're not allowed to follow through on. Going from that attitude to instituting full rights for elves after only a few in-game months is essentially acting on a whim.
So, you are putting words in my mouth, and arguing with a strawman, got it.

Yes, that was his original idea, but he has an advisor who is arguing against that idea, and our actions at the contest showed him that he was wrong! Again You are the only one saying INSTANT, I have been saying gradual the whole time.
You said none of this has been quick, but it actually has been. For three hundred years, elves had no rights at all; Cornwall is the one who gave them their current grab-bag of rights, according to Runey. Cornwall is in his mid fifties, and there is no way he was in a position to give the elves rights when he was in his twenties; let's be really generous and say he was mid-thirties. A species going from "no rights at all" to "full rights on par with humans" in twenty years is shockingly quick.
It doesn't take 20-30 years to not be instant! 2-10 years is still gradual. Again, my only point was that he could get Ren, not get all elves full rights any time soon, please stop arguing with a strawman.

Also, you are ignoring the fact that just because the laws change, that will not change people's attitude, that will take even longer.
I didn't say she was stolen from him; I said she is stolen property. There's an important distinction between the two, legally speaking, though I acknowledge that the distinction might be a little unclear for people without a legal education, and I probably should have been more clear. Mea culpa. Stolen property is property unlawfully taken from its rightful owner; Cornwall is her rightful owner, and she unlawfully fled from him.
Cornwall never gave up his ownership of Sylvia; she was a slave, who ran away from her legal owner. That means he remains her legal owner. No half-way sensible legal system would say "your slave ran away, so it's not yours anymore, so we're going to re-sell it" - that would be absurd. The MC gave the government money in exchange for Sylvia, yes, but only because no-one knew she was an escaped slave; the MC did not legally purchase her, because she wasn't in a position to legally be sold.
Remember the kidnap event? Their plan involves the HHI, a program for unclaimed elves; only they're not unclaimed elves, they're runaways. Not the same thing, and they know it; they presented themselves to the HHI under false pretenses. Nia literally says "Once Cornwall finds us, it's over".
Think of it this way; if your pet runs away, gets picked up and re-sold, and you can prove it was yours, guess who gets to keep the pet. Now imagine that was a one-of-a-kind pet, and the property of an important government official. Who do you think the law would side with in that situation?
The problem, of course, is that Runey hasn't actually explained how this system works, and hasn't thought it through all that well. As an example, an elf goes to the HHI, says they're unclaimed, and the HHI doesn't check they're telling the truth? Sylvia was absolutely claimed, by Cornwall, but no-one thought to verify her story? Nia also says "The HHI keeps everything a secret, so he won't know we chose you," but how exactly do they keep the elves owner secret, while also requiring all elves to have a registered owner?
If she wasn't 'stolen from him' then she was not stolen, if he was her rightful owner. Again, WE BOUGHT HER FROM HIM! NOT STOLEN! She ran away, was recaptured, and then sold once he got her back. He must have thought she was more trouble than she was worth, and let her be sold.

I'm well aware of that, and I think I may have even mentioned it during this discussion. But he pushed for legislation for the rights he thought appropriate, that doesn't mean he'd push any further. There is a world of difference between "they're living things which shouldn't be needlessly abused" and "they're a sapient species equally worthy of respect and rights as humans". Again, go play Lin's story event where you first meet him, and then ask yourself if that person deciding that elves deserve to be included under HH's equivalent of the UDHR seems plausible? Is it possible it'll happen in the game? Absolutely, but it'd be a shockingly sudden change of opinion on his part.
Again, Autumn's father and other groups are pushing for more and more rights, lobby groups. The player show Cornwall that not being an asshole works well, if not better.
My apologies if I misunderstood you, but what you said was "This is exactly why, as they gain more rights, her best interests should be considered as well". Who is the "they" in that scenario, who you expect to gain more rights, if not elves in general? If you meant some other hypothetical group gaining more rights, please correct me, but I think my conclusion that you were referring to elves gaining more rights was a reasonable one. And you clearly expect it to happen in the timeframe of the game, or you wouldn't bring it up in a discussion on how to get Mrs. Rin.
They, is the elves, they started gaining more rights long before the game started, and they will continue to to gain more rights long after it is over. Cornwall is starting to surround himself with more people who are pro-elf, and that seems to be a continuing trend. It will not be fast, but it has been happening, and the actions in the game show that it is continuing to happen, and will continue to happen into the future. More rights all the time, and our actions in the game, have helped to push for that, as that web comic showed.
A nice theory, but also not true. Lin remained a virgin because Runey said she did. The end. Runey has said, blatantly, that it's not a realistic idea, it's just the one he wanted, because he thinks virginity is hot. That's not supposition on my part; he has literally said that.
Yes, it was because he wanted it, but he as the writer did not go back to her old owners and stop them as their world's god, so there has to be an in-story reason! FFS!
I'm not sure you've understood my point, and perhaps I'm not being as clear as I think I am. I'm not saying these things cannot be included in the story; I'm saying they're not realistic. Can they happen in Runey's story? Of course they can, because he controls the narrative. But he cannot change how plausible they are. In the same vein, the MCs grandfather was apparently able to accidentally create a sentient robot, despite having no real technical aptitude, but no-one else in the entire world has? One individual managed it, while the rest of the entire robotics industry on the planet hasn't, in nearly thirty years? Is it what happened in HH? Yes, it is. Is it realistic? God, no. Did it make for a touching story? I'd say so, yes.
Which is my point, you are wrong, it is very realistic. Nothing about this has been fast, it's been going on for years, and will take many more years to get done. You are just ignoring that fact and pretending that it all takes place during the game, so that in one year or two we go from inhuman slaves to full equals. You are the only one saying this. I am only saying things are improving for them, and they will continue to do so. If you think anything else, you are not paying attention.
I didn't say it was impossible, I said it wasn't very realistic, and it sounds to me like you agree with me. Though we disagree that it's "far from impossible"; personally, I'd say it's pretty close to impossible. It's tremendously implausible that someone could go three hundred years in the slave trade without being abused by someone; perhaps not one of her owner, but certainly someone involved in the trade. Women in the real world slave trade, either the modern one or the one centuries ago, would be lucky to go a year without it happening, because people are terrible, and slavers are especially so.
No one said Lin wasn't abused, she was, many times, she was so abused that she was scared of us at first, but not every slave in history was raped. Not every person wants to fuck every woman they see, and many people in that world didn't see elves as people, so having sex with them would be the equivalent of bestiality (or even Pedophilia with her build). Also, not every slave owner in this world is male or straight, some are even too old to get it up.

But even she has said, that in that one regard, she got very lucky. Even if the odds are 0.000000000001% it is possible, no matter now 'unrealistic' you personally think it is.
 
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Corvus Belli

Member
Nov 25, 2017
188
370
Haha. Don't worry about it. That was meant to be tongue in cheek.
I interpreted it as such, chief, but I do have to acknowledge my tendency to ramble, and go off on a tangent.
As an unrelated example, "Measure of a Man" is one of the best regarded TNG episodes, and I love it, but it makes no legal sense, despite the entire episode being about a legal dispute.
I also tend towards self-deprecating humour.

Originally all I wanted to say there's an in game reasons why we as MC don't just buy Ms Ren and there are out of game reasons why it's unlikely Runey will add her in the near future.
I actually do expect her to be added at some point, in much the same way Lin got Jin, Kali got Lucia, and Maria now has Hana.

If/When he decides to let it happen there's plenty of ways it can go down. The easiest being that the government program gets cancelled and she ends up on the open market.
Yup, or the MC will ask Cornwall for a favour, as Devian (the person, not the metal band) said, or she'll be rescued/liberated by Nia, or the fairies will use magic to teleport her to the hotel where she'll immediately fall in love with the MC (as all women invariably do) or something even less feasible; ultimately, I'd say the realism of the scenario is of less importance to Runey than the story he wants to tell, and I'm fine with that. It's just not how my brain works.
 

Corvus Belli

Member
Nov 25, 2017
188
370
So, you are putting words in my mouth, and arguing with a strawman, got it.
I didn't put words in your mouth at all. I defined Cornwalls theoretical tremendous change of heart in a very short span of time as "on a whim", as a rhetorical device highlighting just how quick a change it is, and I never claimed you called it that, did I? Note the important difference between that and putting words in your mouth.
Tell you what, chief. I'll reply to the rest of your post in a PM, so as not to clog up the thread.
 

TheDevian

Svengali Productions
Game Developer
Mar 8, 2018
13,760
32,327
I didn't put words in your mouth at all. I defined Cornwalls theoretical tremendous change of heart in a very short span of time as "on a whim", as a rhetorical device highlighting just how quick a change it is, and I never claimed you called it that, did I? Note the important difference between that and putting words in your mouth.
Tell you what, chief. I'll reply to the rest of your post in a PM, so as not to clog up the thread.
That change of heart has been going on for some time, that is the whole point. We were just one of the main straws that broke the proverbial camel's back. That contest was the last push he needed to show that he might be wrong. He hasn't had a total change of heart, you are the only one saying that, but the cracks are forming, and one of these days, it will shatter.

I don't see why this needs to be a big thing, all I originally said was that Cornwall owes us a favor, and we can use that to get Ren, and the fact that he is starting to see elves as more than slaves (thanks to Autumn's dad, others, and our wining the contest), means that Ren's well treatment 'could' play a factor, if anything. Since you had said that they were not the same as a manufactured product, they were living beings, I figured that as living beings, their well being should then be considered, if that plays in at all.
 

icesun

Be nice! Until it's time to not be nice...
Former Staff
Nov 2, 2018
893
2,403
Without quoting anything (wanna avoid a giant wall of text here):
Let's just say that whatever Cornwall is up to / however this turns out in the long run, we all hope that saving Ren (and thus making Ashley extremely happy) is on Runey's agenda anyways... ...and we hope that it's not part of her ending... ;)
 

voyeurkind

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2018
1,195
1,700
Considering that the very first video game I played as a kid was Pong, I remember BTO in the '70s. My roommate and I were reminiscing about View-Masters just a couple of days ago. Imagine playing HH on that instead of Android back then.
Cutting edge graphics, just like Custer's Revenge. Kali would've liked it.

Also. there would've been a whoe bunch of paddles, with the MC as the ball, moving back and forth between them.
 
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