VN Ren'Py Harem Hotel [v0.18.2] [Runey]

[Runey]

The areas I'm concerned about are the world and the overall tone of the game.

Your world isn't shallow. You've done a lot to develop a history, power structure, and a couple competing factions. However, all that depth and the overall seriousness of it leaves some aggressively glaring plot holes. That was fine when the game was mostly a comedy/porn game, but if you're going for a more serious tone, that's no longer the case. The main questions that stumped me when I was playing were:

As a writer, I take plot holes very seriously. I don't believe there are any plot holes, just things that have yet to be explained. And I will happily answer your questions.

1. Why are elf slaves necessary in a world with an android work force? Since Kali's college class is programming construction droids, they don't seem ludicrously rare or new. As such, how have slaves not been replaced by bots already? The best explanation I could come up with is momentum, but shouldn't the easy availability of manual labor have caused either slaves or androids to become dominant or isolated to certain sectors of the economy? Maybe that's happened off screen but...

Androids are very expensive, especially in comparison to the price of a slave. When converted to USD, cheap slaves cost around $4,200 each. Androids on the other hand will cost closer to $70,000 each. They're very complex and delicate, but are not suited for actual work. For example, if someone wants to build a car factory, they don't build androids to build a car, they build car building robots (I'm sure you know what they look like already). The human form isn't the most efficient form for any of the work we do. So those jobs would be replaced with the right type of robot, or just a cheap expendable slave.

2. Are there people who desire abolition? Outside of Nia of course. We've seen some pretty horrific racism in a lot of different scenes throughout the game, but I think Vanessa, the hipster/rebel, is the only non-elf abolitionist we've ever met. There's an implication there that abolition is not something desired by the majority of society simply because of who Vanessa is. I guess this isn't a plot hole, but damn if it doesn't make for a dark setting. Racial slavery and no groups who find that morally reprehensible?

There are definitely abolitionists, as you probably saw in Vanessa's latest events. But their voices are actively suppressed and mocked. Syl'anar doesn't just have laws that allow for slavery, Syl'anar has a slavery culture. Anyone who speaks against it will most likely be shamed. So that also lowers the amount of abolitionists in Syl'anar. IIRC it was close to 10% of the country is an abolitionist. The second biggest ideology are the technocrats, who want to replace the government with an ultra efficient AI. The abolitionist's only goals are to make slavery illegal, if that were to happen, the movement would dissolve into other things.

3. Is the high elf queen an idiot? The high elf queen's "plan" probably irritated me more than anything else in the game. She apparently has invisible spies capable of infiltrating nearly anything and she can't get blueprints for a gun on her own? Is no fairy capable of watching a person use the internet and learning? Worse yet, wouldn't she know how pointless a gun would be at this point in history? Even if the fairies couldn't use the internet, shouldn't they have some idea what a jet is? What exactly are the fairies telling the elf queen? That entire sequence felt like the idiot ball was being passed around.

I guess what I'm saying overall is that just because you've got a world with a history, doesn't mean that history makes sense.

There have been some very recent real world conflicts in which a relatively small group of poor people defeated the world's biggest and most advanced military in history. So just having guns, rocket launchers, vehicles, etc, are a big advantage, especially over bows and spears.

The fairies can be seen by high tech military security cameras, she and the fairies know where to avoid. Most of their spying is on the citizens so information is limited.

I believe they do know what a jet is? I can't recall a point in the story where she didn't know what a jet was.

As for tone, that should be pretty straight forward. Regardless of the characters or story, the early parts of the game were bright and happy. The problems were small, the solutions were simple and everything stayed happy throughout the scenes. Over time, the problems grew more complex and less concrete. I was completely okay with that as well. I liked Maria's soul searching over whether camming was really healthy for her and what she wanted from her life. Kali had similar issues with a similar change in direction. I felt like the player character acted as something of a rock for the girls through those turbulent times; a constant as they changed their world around it.

But some of the current scenes? They're dark. Not funny haha 40k grim dark, but dark dark. Android and Maria are experiencing the kind of things people prefer to pretend don't exist: existential horror of a type humans don't get to experience and dead serious, no joke, slavery. How different is that from where the game started? I guess I'd liken it to walking into a kids movie only to have it interrupted by a chainsaw massacre halfway through. It doesn't matter whether the kid's movie or the horror movie were actually good, it's the sudden tone switch that would throw people off.

It's very possible that I'm the exception to the rule on this one. Doki Doki Literature Club was wildly popular and I'm pretty sure this very thing I'm complaining about is a large part of that reason. In fact, I feel like there's a lot of recent anime that do the same thing, dropping a horrific murder into the stereotypical shonen opening. Maybe people out there like a sudden tone switch in their stories to keep things surprising and dramatic. Then again, don't all those examples follow the tone shift? While the shift in Doki Doki is surprising, it never goes back to VN after the horror is revealed. The shonens stop shonening after the sudden horrific murder, don't they? Feel free to ignore me on this one if you feel I'm off-base.

I think comparing the shift in focus in HH to doki doki is a bit of a stretch. When you meet a person, you typically don't hear about their deepest insecurities at the beginning. You typically see the person they want you to see, not their truest self. Once you get to know them, you learn more about them, and it happens to be that HH's cast is full of broken people. What happens in Harem Hotel is progression and development. Lin was introduced as a slave, had slave related insecurities, slave related background, etc etc. Her theme is slavery, and that's never replaced.

And it was always my intention to draw real world issues into HH's story. It was always my intention to make this a fairly serious story, but that doesn't mean wacky things can't happen from time to time as they do in real life. I think you simply got a wrong first impression and didn't pick up on the subtler themes. When you meet Kali for example, she tells you she's trying to escape from reality, this wasn't a joke or a passing comment, that was real, and you later learn why she doesn't want to think about reality.

Honestly, I think Android is over-reacting a decent bit, though I can sympathize with where she's coming from. Imagine a child abducted by aliens. She grows up with them, but knows they're different. As she gets older, she realizes just how much so, and worse yet how inferior they are to her. I can sympathize with the desire to know an equal in that setting, to meet someone just like you. However, shouldn't it be a important how hard the people around her are trying to understand and care for her? I feel like even in that scenario, that should make a dramatic difference. To me, Android's breakdown feels a decent amount like teenage angst to me, though that doesn't quite cover all of it. Given her age, teenage angst isn't even entirely unreasonable.

Yes, it is important to know the people around you care and want to help, and that will make a dramatic difference. It's actually what snapped her out of it in her latest content, and she will grow closer to the people around her. Ashley and Kali helping Android during the last event was me setting this up.

Android is a very intelligent but very unwise character, she has to learn things in the same way humans do, but at a very accelerated pace. She has the same sort of "soul" as we do, but without the same limits.

I think the direction I'd want to see her story go is her attempting to create immortality for those close to her. Rather than killing herself to make others like her, why not try to make those close to her like her instead? I also think that having split herself to make others isn't likely to be as rewarding as she imagines it. Imagine meeting yourself after all. There'd be no surprise; you could call all of the other you's shots. Maybe Android is capable of creating a little more differentiation though, so I'm off base.

There is unfortunately no immortality pill the characters can take. If that were possible, that would more than likely be a huge theme in the plot.
Android also isn't creating clones of herself. Her partitions will learn from their environment in the same way Android does, so depending on time/place/exposure they would develop unique personalities, just like Android has.

As for Maria... god her story is dark. I'm trying to imagine what the time she spent after she was abducted and forced through training was like and it seems quite possibly the most horrific thing imaginable. What if Ellen hadn't come through and managed to purchase her? She'd have been bought by who the hell knows who based off of what, solely a picture of her, maybe a list of skills? She'd have spent every moment of her captivity wondering if she was going to be sold as an honest to god sex slave.

This shit happens in real life and it's the darkest thing I can imagine. I don't want to imagine it. I don't want to imagine that humans are so depraved that they would want something like that. Worse yet, you've created a world in which not only is this something that happens, it's been NORMALIZED. There's an honest to god website in your world, not on the dark web or something, but a GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED WEBSITE in which girls are sold as sex slaves. You have created Rapebook. What the fuck man.

I think typing this out really helped me get to the crux of my issue with the story currently. It's not that the story got dark; it's the fridge horror that it was this dark all along. You've pointed out that the world this story is taking place in is not only not our world, but just possibly one of the most fucked up worlds imaginable. The world in which I was amassing a harem of cute girls and getting to know and love them, had something like Rapebook sitting in the background. That was going on; all the characters knew about it; all of the characters didn't think twice about it.

Hell, it was even quietly there from moment one, but I never thought about it because it was "just elves" or out of sight, out of mind. It was only when it was rubbed in my face that I even considered the ramifications of everything. Even as I'm absolutely horrified by all this, I can't help but be impressed by how you presented it. I can only imagine that the MC and all the rest of the girls got the exact same rude awakening that we did... though they have less of an excuse for not realizing it. After all, they can visit Rapebook anytime they want.

Exactly! But I would like to quickly clarify that this story doesn't take place in our world, but a twisted mirror to it.

Things happen, or have happened in history, where most people were born into a world where bad things are considered normal, you don't think twice about it. "It's just them". But it's not them, it's us. And there are many parallells in our world that make perfect sense for the horror dystopia in HH, it might not even be too hard to see this world becoming somewhat of a reality, and that should be the scariest part to imagine.

Kali is actually not a native to Syl'anar at all, only recently moved, but her father essentially funds slavery, yet has the money to give all slaves a happy free life if he chose to. This isn't something that's very obvious unless you think about it, or unless you read it later in the story.

Anyway, keep in mind that it doesn't really matter in the slightest what I think of things. My critiques are meant to be constructive and if I've come off as too harsh, I apologize. The important thing in all of this is that you're finding your work to be fun and/or fulfilling. I can definitely sympathize with watching a movie and considering how they decided to present the story. After all, the same story can be told a million different ways without changing the actual subject matter. I'm glad you have a plan and I truly do like the way you've developed your characters. It's just your world man... it's so fucking dark. Maria's story has skewed how I'll ever be able to look at the rest of the game. It all seems dirty and corrupted. I'm not sure if that was your plan, but damn if it didn't succeed.

It was absolutely my plan. The world appears and acts normal on the surface, but deeper down, it isn't at all. And it isn't my goal to show you these dark things to make you feel dark, the goal is to make the light brighter when it comes. To give you a reason and desire for justice so when it comes, it tastes sweeter.

 

[Runey]

Mostly yes, although I would like to add that even IF elves were actually necessary for the economy, they wouldn't necessarily be treated more humanely. Although killing them would certainly be illegal (which it probably is in Syl'anar as well, but still) it would be similar to destruction of private property and lost revenue, which would be considered a pretty serious crime if you did it to someone else's slave. But part of extreme hierarchical thinking that facilitates slavery is the idea that the feelings and well being of those "below you" don't matter, and that it's your innate right to hurt and humiliate them as their superior. Often justified as "putting them in their place".
Like in my comment before, compare it to the South in times of slavery where mistreatment of slaves was simply part of daily lives despite the South's economy being pretty heavily dependent on those slaves.

I do indeed agree though that what's happening to slaves behind the scenes is probably a lot worse than it would appear to be outwardly, even with the Happy Home Initiative. Though I do believe that Cornwall genuinely is better than the alternatives could be in that he does seem to care about at least the basic care of elves as seen when

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, although he still clearly endorses and takes part in sex slavery, even if he has his limits, so he's still ok with the institution still. Still given the circumstances, he's probably the best the elves could hope for given the current public sentiment, and somehow getting rid of him, voluntarily or not, would probably hurt the cause of freeing the elves and granting them full human rights (or elven rights) more than it would help it.

Slavery is a huge part of Syl'anar's economy. Nearly 1 billion elves are slaves, and it is the only legal region in the world you can own slaves. They enjoy this monopoly and is a part of why they try so hard to prevent elves from leaving Syl'anar.
The industrial revolution even happened a bit differently in this world than in ours. In Syl'anar, production and innovation were much greater because of the vast amounts of slave labor. Slavers were throwing money everywhere, seeing what stuck, all while letting the elves test it out first. There were not safety precautions. This is why Syl'anar had mechs and flying machines even back then, but this also had much more drastic effects on the world, and is why it doesn't snow in Syl'anar anymore, except for the southern-most island.

Slaves currently take up every entry level and simple job our world would have. Fast food workers, farmers, tedious office work, call centers, maids, electronics manufacturing, etc. Humans take higher positions, or are artists. This situation is one where the working class is enslaved. Without them, the economy would begin to crumble.

 

[TheDevian]

Slavery is a huge part of Syl'anar's economy. Nearly 1 billion elves are slaves, and it is the only legal region in the world you can own slaves. They enjoy this monopoly and is a part of why they try so hard to prevent elves from leaving Syl'anar.
The industrial revolution even happened a bit differently in this world than in ours. In Syl'anar, production and innovation were much greater because of the vast amounts of slave labor. Slavers were throwing money everywhere, seeing what stuck, all while letting the elves test it out first. There were not safety precautions. This is why Syl'anar had mechs and flying machines even back then, but this also had much more drastic effects on the world, and is why it doesn't snow in Syl'anar anymore, except for the southern-most island.

Slaves currently take up every entry level and simple job our world would have. Fast food workers, farmers, tedious office work, call centers, maids, electronics manufacturing, etc. Humans take higher positions, or are artists. This situation is one where the working class is enslaved. Without them, the economy would begin to crumble.

It is interesting to think about what would happen if they did outlaw slavery. Most of these jobs would still need to be done after all.

My first thought would be that the kids would have to get jobs, but the more I think about it, the less I think would change, other than the elves getting a minimum wage and no benefits, while having to pay their own expenses, creating ghettos and other disparities, with the elves still being a 2nd class citizens. Some of them would finally be able to improve their lives, while others who lived like Ann and Jin before, would either find work as a sex worker or fall into despair with few other skills to fall back on.

I can even see some ex-slaves protesting being freed for various reasons, from not wanting/knowing how to care for themselves any longer, to Stockholm Syndrome.

Odds are, the best way to do it, would be gradual, from granting them and half-elves more rights, to paying them, and eventuality freeing them.

 

[alex2011]

Yeah, it boils down to 'elves are cheap, androids are not'.

Basically, as has most real life slavery.

Mostly yes, although I would like to add that even IF elves were actually necessary for the economy, they wouldn't necessarily be treated more humanely. Although killing them would certainly be illegal (which it probably is in Syl'anar as well, but still) it would be similar to destruction of private property and lost revenue, which would be considered a pretty serious crime if you did it to someone else's slave. But part of extreme hierarchical thinking that facilitates slavery is the idea that the feelings and well being of those "below you" don't matter, and that it's your innate right to hurt and humiliate them as their superior. Often justified as "putting them in their place".
Like in my comment before, compare it to the South in times of slavery where mistreatment of slaves was simply part of daily lives despite the South's economy being pretty heavily dependent on those slaves.

I do indeed agree though that what's happening to slaves behind the scenes is probably a lot worse than it would appear to be outwardly, even with the Happy Home Initiative. Though I do believe that Cornwall genuinely is better than the alternatives could be in that he does seem to care about at least the basic care of elves as seen when

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, although he still clearly endorses and takes part in sex slavery, even if he has his limits, so he's still ok with the institution still. Still given the circumstances, he's probably the best the elves could hope for given the current public sentiment, and somehow getting rid of him, voluntarily or not, would probably hurt the cause of freeing the elves and granting them full human rights (or elven rights) more than it would help it.

I mean, why would they be treated in a way that could ultimately kill them before their time if they are that vital? It isn't like elves are an infinite resource, they WILL die out completely eventually, sooner rather than later with that treatment. Because of their much longer lifespans, they would be better suited to a level of treatment that allowed that lifespan to play out in its entirety to maximize their usefulness. Once they are no longer useful, then it would no longer impact their ability to serve the economy. It would be more economical to squeeze as much time as they can out of the elves.

 

[TheDevian]

Basically, as has most real life slavery.



I mean, why would they be treated in a way that could ultimately kill them before their time if they are that vital? It isn't like elves are an infinite resource, they WILL die out completely eventually, sooner rather than later with that treatment. Because of their much longer lifespans, they would be better suited to a level of treatment that allowed that lifespan to play out in its entirety to maximize their usefulness. Once they are no longer useful, then it would no longer impact their ability to serve the economy. It would be more economical to squeeze as much time as they can out of the elves.

Sadly, far too many humans don't think long term, they only care about the here and now, and what they can get out of it personally.

 

[mo_02]

android?

 

[TheDevian]

android?

Joiplay.

 

[Corvus Belli]

I mean, why would they be treated in a way that could ultimately kill them before their time if they are that vital?

You might as well ask the same of real-world slavery, or any corporation that exists; every company or corporation in human history requires employees to function, and yet those companies and corporations couldn't care less about the health or well-being of their employees.
Every workplace health and safety initiative was the creation of labour union organizations advocating for the benefit of their members, and are enforced by the government, because no corporation follows those guidelines out of the goodness of their heart; if governments didn't enforce those programs, corporations wouldn't follow them.

 

[alex2011]

Sadly, far too many humans don't think long term, they only care about the here and now, and what they can get out of it personally.

Which is a terrible mindset for thinking about an entire society's economy. It's fine for an individual, but when dealing with something as long term, and that can have very drastic long term effects on future generations, as the economy, they do need to think long term. If not for the elves, as if they would, then for their own future generations.

You might as well ask the same of real-world slavery, or any corporation that exists; every company or corporation in human history requires employees to function, and yet those companies and corporations couldn't care less about the health or well-being of their employees.
Every workplace health and safety initiative was the creation of labour union organizations advocating for the benefit of their members, and are enforced by the government, because no corporation follows those guidelines out of the goodness of their heart; if governments didn't enforce those programs, corporations wouldn't follow them.

Even the real world slavers and corporations know better than to treat the labor in a way that will lead to death and waste said labor. Slave labor is an asset that cannot be so easily replenished, even with the labor force of Syl'anar, the elves, being in the billions. Once they die out, so does Syl'anar. That makes the labor much more valuable than what the labor is used for with only one exception, breeding more into the labor force, but because of how that works, the offspring would live shorter lives from the start and would be even more valuable alive. Dead bodies don't contribute to the economy.

 

[c3p0]

Which is a terrible mindset for thinking about an entire society's economy. It's fine for an individual, but when dealing with something as long term, and that can have very drastic long term effects on future generations, as the economy, they do need to think long term. If not for the elves, as if they would, then for their own future generations.

Even the real world slavers and corporations know better than to treat the labor in a way that will lead to death and waste said labor.

Not really. The "world" or more most of huminity only have short time goals. For a manager this would be next financial year. If he had high numbers he get praised, a bonus and so on. Usually the higher the profit the better is it for the manager. What comes in a few years later, because eg. he had sold the cash cow for short time profit doesn't intrest many.
So he would be in many eyes a better manager than one that planned long term because you can't make the same profit.

Also humanity has proven again and again that the usually don't think for themselves in long term. Factories had disposed their waste in a manner that leads to the poison of the environment and people. To avoid to much connection between the disposal of their waste and the poison of the environment and people they only carry it to the next town or so, that it isn't that clear anymore what they really do.

Most of regulations for people and environment doens't come from the industrialist but from the country and worker class people.
Also it doesn't make that of a difference if you are in a developed country or developing country, because even in a developed country this happens - sure in a developing country even more.

So, in my eyes, humans usually are very short sighted and don't care about a lot what they don't affect themselve obviously.

 

[alex2011]

Not really. The "world" or more most of huminity only have short time goals. For a manager this would be next financial year. If he had high numbers he get praised, a bonus and so on. Usually the higher the profit the better is it for the manager. What comes in a few years later, because eg. he had sold the cash cow for short time profit doesn't intrest many.
So he would be in many eyes a better manager than one that planned long term because you can't make the same profit.

Also humanity has proven again and again that the usually don't think for themselves in long term. Factories had disposed their waste in a manner that leads to the poison of the environment and people. To avoid to much connection between the disposal of their waste and the poison of the environment and people they only carry it to the next town or so, that it isn't that clear anymore what they really do.

Most of regulations for people and environment doens't come from the industrialist but from the country and worker class people.
Also it doesn't make that of a difference if you are in a developed country or developing country, because even in a developed country this happens - sure in a developing country even more.

So, in my eyes, humans usually are very short sighted and don't care about a lot what they don't affect themselve obviously.

But then, when the cash cow lies dead on the floor, no more money, short term or long. Profit for a single individual or company is one thing, supporting an entire economy is another entirely. Thinkiing in the short term works for the former, but try that with the latter and the society the economy is for will end up either indebted to another or dead in the water.

 

[Rex Blue]

Androids are very expensive, especially in comparison to the price of a slave. When converted to USD, cheap slaves cost around $4,200 each. Androids on the other hand will cost closer to $70,000 each. They're very complex and delicate, but are not suited for actual work. For example, if someone wants to build a car factory, they don't build androids to build a car, they build car building robots (I'm sure you know what they look like already). The human form isn't the most efficient form for any of the work we do. So those jobs would be replaced with the right type of robot, or just a cheap expendable slave.

Good answer. I think Android gave me a false impression as to how capable Androids are in the setting. There were also the police bots that abducted Maria. It seemed like most of the androids are physically as capable as humans, though not as capable at innovating. The price is something I should have considered. I guess that I'd include enslaving a sentient being in the price, which is something the majority of Syl'anar would not.

There have been some very recent real world conflicts in which a relatively small group of poor people defeated the world's biggest and most advanced military in history. So just having guns, rocket launchers, vehicles, etc, are a big advantage, especially over bows and spears.

The fairies can be seen by high tech military security cameras, she and the fairies know where to avoid. Most of their spying is on the citizens so information is limited.

There are a couple conflicts you could be referring to here, but I'm pretty sure defeated would be a fairly strong word in most of those instances. First world countries have a fairly poor track record when it comes to invading third world countries and attempting to establish governments for them. Guerrilla actions tend to sap the will of those first world countries to fight, but I wouldn't call it a defeat. In addition, Syl'anar not seeing elves as people would hurt any counter insurgency. Collateral damage against elves? If Syl'anar held back, it would only be the loss of potential slavery capital that made them do so. Unless magic is much more powerful than we've seen, the elves don't stand a chance, regardless of weapons. The population discrepancy lends that even more weight.

I should have realized that fairies could be seen by some IR after Android saw them. Still, seems a little ridiculous that their spying could be replicated and superseded by a single computer with internet access. Has a fairy ever recommended that to the elf queen? I guess they might never have wanted to seeing as she's a raging bitch.

There is unfortunately no immortality pill the characters can take. If that were possible, that would more than likely be a huge theme in the plot.

I wasn't thinking a pill. Android bodies are immortal and Android (the individual) proves that code can evolve and think. It would be a long step to convert a living human's thoughts into code, but with Android as an example, it seems like a path that could maybe be explored. Then again, she's apparently a buggy mess, so maybe that's unreasonable.

It was absolutely my plan. The world appears and acts normal on the surface, but deeper down, it isn't at all. And it isn't my goal to show you these dark things to make you feel dark, the goal is to make the light brighter when it comes. To give you a reason and desire for justice so when it comes, it tastes sweeter.

I hope that's the way it works out. People are just so small against the weight of governments and corporations, especially as you've stated that abolitionists are being repressed. I'm looking forward to how you plan to confront such a massive city and system with a handful of cute girls and one true AI. Sounds like a bumpy ride, but I have faith in you as a writer.

 

[Corvus Belli]

If not for the elves, as if they would, then for their own future generations.

Are you a new visitor to our world? It might be different on your planet, but I'll give you a hint about humans; we're generally, on both an individual and a societal level, terrible at thinking about the long-term.
Humans tend not to limit their behaviours because of future consequences, and appeals to "oh, but think of the future generations" are laughably useless. As an example, you might want to take a quick peek at the environment, and consider that we've ravaged the one and only ecosystem that can support human life, by dumping a truly shocking amount of pollutants and plastics into the air and the water and the soil. You breath in micro-particles of plastic with every breath you take, and consume a plethora of toxins in your drinking water (the filtration systems don't get everything). We've been warned that this behaviour isn't sustainable since before I was born, and yet, we haven't even slowed down.

Even the real world slavers and corporations know better than to treat the labor in a way that will lead to death and waste said labor.

No, they really don't. Slave owners abused and killed slaves fairly regularly, all things considered, with the logic of "we can always get more slaves." It happened often enough that laws had to be enacted to limit it (with varying degrees of success), from Mesopotamia, to Ancient Rome, to Zhou Dynasty China, to the American South.
Companies and corporations have had their employees working in conditions inimicable to human health and longevity since the very inception of "companies"; factory conditions in the Industial Revolution were deplorable, because it was cheaper to replace employees who died than it was to implement safer working conditions. Same reason corporations break environmental safety laws with such regularity; if the cost of getting caught breaking the law is $50 million, but obeying the law costs them $250 million, what do you think the average corporation will do?

Slave labor is an asset that cannot be so easily replenished, even with the labor force of Syl'anar, the elves, being in the billions.

Of course it can. As long as the elvish population growth stays roughly comparable with their death rate, they're a renewable resource, same as humans are. If they've got a birth rate comparable to humans (which seems likely, if they number over a billion of them in only a few centuries), then they're giving birth to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 18.5 million offspring per year (average birth rate is 18.5 per 1,000). That means, even if 50,000 of them are being killed every single day of the year, their population will still remain constant. It's also worth noting that'd be a murder rate over 350 times greater than that of the modern-day US, and over 1,750 times greater than Western Europe.

Once they die out, so does Syl'anar.

And? That's a problem for tomorrow; I refer you to the earler point about human long-term thinking, and how much the species sucks at it. For further examples of this failing, I direct you towards the entirety of human history, where you'll be spoiled for choice.

 

[alex2011]

Are you a new visitor to our world? It might be different on your planet, but I'll give you a hint about humans; we're generally, on both an individual and a societal level, terrible at thinking about the long-term.
Humans tend not to limit their behaviours because of future consequences, and appeals to "oh, but think of the future generations" are laughably useless. As an example, you might want to take a quick peek at the environment, and consider that we've ravaged the one and only ecosystem that can support human life, by dumped a truly shocking amount of toxins and plastics into the air and the water and the soil. You breath in micro-particles of plastic with every breath you take, and consume a litany of toxins in your drinking water (the filtration systems don't get everything). We've been warned that this behaviour isn't sustainable since before I was born, and yet, we haven't even slowed down.


No, they really don't. Slave owners abused and killed slaves fairly regularly, all things considered, with the logic of "we can always get more slaves." It happened often enough that laws had to be enacted to limit it (with varying degrees of success), from Mesopotamia, to Ancient Rome, to Zhou Dynasty China, to the American South.
Companies and corporations have had their employees working in conditions inimicable to human health and longevity since the very inception of "companies"; factory conditions in the Industial Revolution were deplorable, because it was cheaper to replace employees who died than it was to implement safer working conditions. Same reason corporations break environmental safety laws with such regularity; if the cost of getting caught breaking the law is $50 million, but obeying the law costs them $250 million, what do you think the average corporation will do?


Of course it can. As long as the elvish population growth stays roughly comparable with their death rate, they're a renewable resource, same as humans are. If they've got a birth rate comparable to humans (which seems likely, if they number over a billion of them in only a few centuries), then they're giving birth to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 18.5 million offspring per year (average birth rate is 18.5 per 1,000). That means, even if 50,000 of them are being killed every single day of the year, their population will still remain constant.


And? That's a problem for tomorrow; I refer you to the earler point about human long-term thinking, and how much the species sucks at it. For further examples of this failing, I direct you towards the entirety of human history, where you'll be spoiled for choice.

Some humans are, some are fully capable of long term thought. The latter tend to be the ones who don't take up positions of authority over entire economies, though, while the former are typically politicians and the like, people who hold that power and squander it for short term gain when they could get so much more out of their position over a longer period. I'm not going to get into the example specifically because that would most certainly derail the thread and get us off of the base topic we are discussing, but if one does not think of the consequences, then they have already doomed themselves to fail sooner rather than later. Case in point, the mistreatment of the elves, which will eventually lead to an extinction that will end Syl'anar when, not if, it happens. In this case, yes, it IS going to happen no matter what the humans do, but what they are doing now is speeding up the process and that economy they have will be quite the rude awakening when, again not if, it comes crashing down and total chaos ensues.

The real world DOES know better, the problem isn't that they don't know, the problem is they don't care, which is actually much worse. In both cases, they believe(d) the enslaved are lower than humans and anything at that level or lower deserves to be treated like trash. That kind of thinking will lead to resource depletion, the resource being the labor provided by the elves in this case. Like with real world countries that rely on cheap labor or that did at one point, or even the colonies that became the US, the humans of Syl'anar won't want to get their hands dirty with the same labor when, again not if, the elves die out. Much like how the nobles that came to the new world, now the US, did not want to work, neither will the humans of Syl'anar and that will grind the economy to a screeching halt instantly.

That's my point, the elven birth rate WON'T stay at or above the death rate if this keeps up. Sooner rather than later, the death rate will overtake the birth rate. There's also the issue that those being born aren't necessarily pure elves and that means they don't share the super long lives of elves. This makes the labor of these offspring even more valuable because they are going to die sooner whether they are mistreated or not. Elves will last hundreds or even thousands of years if treated well enough, anyone less than a full elf will not and will have varying degrees of declining longevity depending on the amount of elven DNA they possess. Then you take mistreatment into account and they might even struggle to last a decade.

That WOULD be a problem of tomorrow if there wasn't mistreatment potentially shortening the lives of their laborers. By mistreating the elves, the humans of Syl'anar have turned the issue into a problem of today because they are making the elves die out faster and shortening the time they have to use the elves as labor. Then you take into account the lack of responsibility and will to work the humans will no doubt have, as has been the case in nearly every slave owning scenario in the real world, again I point to the colonies that became the US, and there's a major problem.

 

[TheDevian]

Even the real world slavers and corporations know better than to treat the labor in a way that will lead to death and waste said labor. Slave labor is an asset that cannot be so easily replenished, even with the labor force of Syl'anar, the elves, being in the billions. Once they die out, so does Syl'anar. That makes the labor much more valuable than what the labor is used for with only one exception, breeding more into the labor force, but because of how that works, the offspring would live shorter lives from the start and would be even more valuable alive. Dead bodies don't contribute to the economy.

Yeah, no, that is really not the case. They will work their employees to death, if they are not prevented. I know, because I was one of those people who was forced to do the work of 3 people, got hurt on the job, and they just paid the fine, and pushed me onto the government to care for. So now I am permanently disabled, and even if I were to try to find work again for some reason, like them taking my benefits away, I am blacklisted from ever working there again, because they had to pay my medical bills for making me disabled in the first place.

We catch corporations knowingly selling poison, we have them happily killing off their customers and employees, as long as it turns a profit. Long term is not the goal, it is all about that fiscal quarter, and the next quarter is the next quarter's problem. In fact, corporations are some of the worst examples of this, because of the way it is designed to care only about short term profits. Since that is how their higher ups are rewarded.

But then, when the cash cow lies dead on the floor, no more money, short term or long. Profit for a single individual or company is one thing, supporting an entire economy is another entirely. Thinkiing in the short term works for the former, but try that with the latter and the society the economy is for will end up either indebted to another or dead in the water.

But for that to work, people have to give a shit about the company and the people who work there. They milk it for everything they can get, and move on to the next one when/if it fails. The main issue here is that corporations are controlled by the board, which answers to the investors, who only care about their investment, not even the company. In the old days, we could take short term losses to invest in the futures, but now short term losses are not acceptable. We can even see examples of that here on this site, where a dev can work on a game, drop it, move onto another one, and repeat this as long as people still support them.

We also have the tax incentive, the lower the highest tax rates are, the less incentive the leaders of that company have to invest that money back into the company. As an example, at one time in our country, we had the highest tax rate (for income over a certain amount), was about 90%, so rather than take that money as income and give most of it to the government as taxes, they would reinvest in their companies, pay their employees better, and so on. Then they lowered that tax rate, and all of that stopped, the less they have to pay, the more they keep for themselves and the less they put back into the company. History speaks for itself. While greed has its place, it is an addictive beast, and it blinds you to anything other than how to get more.

Some humans are, some are fully capable of long term thought. The latter tend to be the ones who don't take up positions of authority over entire economies, though, while the former are typically politicians and the like, people who hold that power and squander it for short term gain when they could get so much more out of their position over a longer period. I'm not going to get into the example specifically because that would most certainly derail the thread and get us off of the base topic we are discussing, but if one does not think of the consequences, then they have already doomed themselves to fail sooner rather than later. Case in point, the mistreatment of the elves, which will eventually lead to an extinction that will end Syl'anar when, not if, it happens. In this case, yes, it IS going to happen no matter what the humans do, but what they are doing now is speeding up the process and that economy they have will be quite the rude awakening when, again not if, it comes crashing down and total chaos ensues.

The real world DOES know better, the problem isn't that they don't know, the problem is they don't care, which is actually much worse. In both cases, they believe(d) the enslaved are lower than humans and anything at that level or lower deserves to be treated like trash. That kind of thinking will lead to resource depletion, the resource being the labor provided by the elves in this case. Like with real world countries that rely on cheap labor or that did at one point, or even the colonies that became the US, the humans of Syl'anar won't want to get their hands dirty with the same labor when, again not if, the elves die out. Much like how the nobles that came to the new world, now the US, did not want to work, neither will the humans of Syl'anar and that will grind the economy to a screeching halt instantly.

That's my point, the elven birth rate WON'T stay at or above the death rate if this keeps up. Sooner rather than later, the death rate will overtake the birth rate. There's also the issue that those being born aren't necessarily pure elves and that means they don't share the super long lives of elves. This makes the labor of these offspring even more valuable because they are going to die sooner whether they are mistreated or not. Elves will last hundreds or even thousands of years if treated well enough, anyone less than a full elf will not and will have varying degrees of declining longevity depending on the amount of elven DNA they possess. Then you take mistreatment into account and they might even struggle to last a decade.

That WOULD be a problem of tomorrow if there wasn't mistreatment potentially shortening the lives of their laborers. By mistreating the elves, the humans of Syl'anar have turned the issue into a problem of today because they are making the elves die out faster and shortening the time they have to use the elves as labor. Then you take into account the lack of responsibility and will to work the humans will no doubt have, as has been the case in nearly every slave owning scenario in the real world, again I point to the colonies that became the US, and there's a major problem.

The people who do look to the future, are not only rarely drawn to power, they are rarely willing to do what is needed to obtain that power, and in those rare cases when they do, they are then indebted and/or controlled by those special interests who control everything with their "donations".

You are right, that the birth rate may not always stay at the rate it is, which might be part of why they are not including half elves in the elf rights laws, creating a new workforce. Forced breeding is a thing, look at Handmaiden. But here is the thing, by the time this becomes an issue, those people who are in charge will be long dead, or at least out of power, so they just don't care. 'The birth rate drops, they can start up factory farms, cloning, etc., whatever, that is something the future generations can deal with ...not my problem.'

Even if they cut the average lifespan of elves in half, none of them will live to see the end result. Those elves still would outlive their average human several times over. It will take far longer for that problem to show than it did in any real world examples, since no slave here could live for centuries.

Look at climate change, we have been warning about the damage of pollution for most of the last century, but we still refuse to do anything about it, because short term matters more to the people in charge than longer term. They only care about staying in power, and will do anything to make that happen, no matter how stupid and short sighted it is, as long as they get money and power.

This is the case with almost every issue pollution, elf slavery, robot warriors, whatever the issue, long term only matters, if it aligns with their short term goals. While yes, many people are capable of thinking long term, the hard part is getting society and the people in charge of it to care enough to do anything about it.

Which, brings me to another way in which we could change society in this game, once Kali's dad dies, and the girls inherit most of his empire, we could start funding anti-slavery people, use smear campaigns against the pro-slavery candidates, and so on. That could be one way to get Vanessa elected.

 

[Corvus Belli]

Case in point, the mistreatment of the elves, which will eventually lead to an extinction that will end Syl'anar when, not if, it happens.

What extinction? There are over a billion of them, vastly more than when humans arrived on the continent, because they're being breed like livestock; there is precisely zero evidence to support the idea that elvish population levels are dropping precipitously enough for their extinction to be a legitimate concern. Repeated assertion of "when, not if, they go extinct" doesn't make it true. There's no indication they're dying in the massive numbers that'd be required for their extinction to be imminent.

That's my point, the elven birth rate WON'T stay at or above the death rate if this keeps up. Sooner rather than later, the death rate will overtake the birth rate.

As I already pointed out, you'd have to be killing over 50,000 elves a day, every day, before the population level begins to drop even a single birth below replacement-level fertility. Again, that's the entire US annual homicide rate occuring every day. So, no, it's not a matter of "sooner rather than later"; there is simply no evidence their population is shrinking as a result of human mistreatment. Quite the opposite, actually, given how much their population has increased since the human invasion.

There's also the issue that those being born aren't necessarily pure elves and that means they don't share the super long lives of elves.

You're right, they only live half as long; that's still about 500 years, though (i.e. longer than the nation of Syl'anar has existed). We also don't know what percentage of their births are half-elf; any human procreating with an elf results in a half-elf, but every elven couple forced to procreate in breeding facilities results in another elf.

This makes the labor of these offspring even more valuable because they are going to die sooner whether they are mistreated or not.

Yes, but "sooner" is still longer than the lifespan of most countries, and so therefore outside consideration from a human perspective. Again, humans think in the short-term, and even those who might think "long-term" still aren't thinking about the state of the economy into the mid-26th century, any more than the British East India Company were concerned about the 22nd-century economy. From a human perspective, the labour value of an elf who'll live 1000 years and a half-elf who'll live 500 is functionally identical, because both will still be alive when your great, great-grandchildren have died of old age.

That WOULD be a problem of tomorrow if there wasn't mistreatment potentially shortening the lives of their laborers.

Who cares if a few elves die a little sooner? There are always more elves to do the job. That's the thought process, and we know that because that was the thought process of real-world slave owners, and real-world companies who were killing their employees through negligence; who cares if all the toxic fumes in the factory are killing workers, you can always get more workers. If it cost more to prevent the harm than it did to replace the dead, they didn't bother. They still don't. Are you at all familair with the Recall Formula? If you don't put cash value on the cost of a human life, then corporations will act as if that value is $0.
Even if you reduce an elves lifespan by 300 years, they'll still be alive 700 years after you're dead. Since the people who own elves only care about how they'll benefit them in their lifetime, they're only thinking in terms of years, decades at best. Hypothetical Slave Owner X buys Lin, and mistreats her, cutting her lifespan in half (meaning she'll die in 200 years, instead of living another 700). What does he care? She'll still be useful every day of his life. What happens to her after he dies means less than nothing to him.

 

[c3p0]

Which, brings me to another way in which we could change society in this game, once Kali's dad dies, and the girls inherit most of his empire, we could start funding anti-slavery people, use smear campaigns against the pro-slavery candidates, and so on. That could be one way to get Vanessa elected.

Interesting idea, yet, I'm curious if they let Kali do this or if they use some nonsense to limit her power or even take over her empire.

 

[TheDevian]

You're right, they only live half as long; that's still about 500 years, though (i.e. longer than the nation of Syl'anar has existed). We also don't know what percentage of their births are half-elf; any human procreating with an elf results in a half-elf, but every elven couple forced to procreate in breeding facilities results in another elf.

Depends on the type of elf, we are talking common and high, the dark elves don't live near as long, but yeah.

Who cares if a few elves die a little sooner? There are always more elves to do the job. That's the thought process, and we know that because that was the thought process of real-world slave owners, and real-world companies who were killing their employees through negligence; who cares if all the toxic fumes in the factory are killing workers, you can always get more workers. If it cost more to prevent the harm than it did to replace the dead, they didn't bother. They still don't. Are you at all familair with the Recall Formula? If you don't put cash value on the cost of a human life, then corporations will act as if that value is $0.
Even if you reduce an elves lifespan by 300 years, they'll still be alive 700 years after you're dead. Since the people who own elves only care about how they'll benefit them in their lifetime, they're only thinking in terms of years, decades at best. Hypothetical Slave Owner X buys Lin, and mistreats her, cutting her lifespan in half (meaning she'll die in 200 years, instead of living another 700). What does he care? She'll still be useful every day of his life. What happens to her after he dies means less than nothing to him.

It's the same thought process with minimum wage slaves, 'we can always get more trained monkeys', this is why they are always trying to limit education.

Interesting idea, yet, I'm curious if they let Kali do this or if they use some nonsense to limit her power or even take over her empire.

So far, she doesn't have much, and even in the end, she won't get all of it, maybe even between both sisters, they won't get all of it, but even if they each only get a small fraction by the end of her story, their family will have access to more money than some small countries, and with some good investments and a few successful endeavors, they could leverage that into more than enough money to fund a political revolution. Could even use Political Action Committees to hide who is funding it, so it won't hurt the company's "image" to the racist public.

 

[Corvus Belli]

Interesting idea, yet, I'm curious if they let Kali do this or if they use some nonsense to limit her power or even take over her empire.

It's a fictional setting, so I'm uncertain of the intricacies of their legal systems, but Kali's father isn't a citizen of Syl'anar, and I'm uncertain if Kali is or not.
If she isn't, then in the event she inherits her fathers assets, including Nero Inc., then the government of Syl'anar couldn't do anything to take it from her (if their legal systems are anything like those of the real-world). They could refuse to do business with her, though given the companies size and scope, that might be difficult.
It also depends on how much control she'd have; is there a Board of Directors, or is Trenero running the company essentially as a king? Did Trenero buy out all his investors over the years? Is it a publically traded company?

 

[TheDevian]

It's a fictional setting, so I'm unertain of the intricacies of their legal systems, but Kali's father isn't a citizen of Syl'anar, and I'm uncertain if Kali is or not.
If she isn't, then in the event she inhereits her fathers assets, including Nero Inc., then the government of Syl'anar couldn't do anything to take it from her (if their legal systems are anything like those of the real-world). They could refuse to do business with her, though given the companies size and scope, that might be difficult. It also depends on how much control she'd have; is there a Board of Directors, or is Trenero running the company essentially as a king? Did Trenero buy out all his investors over the years? Is it a publically traded company?

Very true, I was thinking in different terms, but that is a good point. That said, secret shadow committees could be set up to do that stuff, and keep her public image clean (ignoring the exhibitionism).

Can't remember if it is publicly traded or not...