alex2011

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Yeah, it boils down to 'elves are cheap, androids are not'.
Basically, as has most real life slavery.


Mostly yes, although I would like to add that even IF elves were actually necessary for the economy, they wouldn't necessarily be treated more humanely. Although killing them would certainly be illegal (which it probably is in Syl'anar as well, but still) it would be similar to destruction of private property and lost revenue, which would be considered a pretty serious crime if you did it to someone else's slave. But part of extreme hierarchical thinking that facilitates slavery is the idea that the feelings and well being of those "below you" don't matter, and that it's your innate right to hurt and humiliate them as their superior. Often justified as "putting them in their place".
Like in my comment before, compare it to the South in times of slavery where mistreatment of slaves was simply part of daily lives despite the South's economy being pretty heavily dependent on those slaves.

I do indeed agree though that what's happening to slaves behind the scenes is probably a lot worse than it would appear to be outwardly, even with the Happy Home Initiative. Though I do believe that Cornwall genuinely is better than the alternatives could be in that he does seem to care about at least the basic care of elves as seen when
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, although he still clearly endorses and takes part in sex slavery, even if he has his limits, so he's still ok with the institution still. Still given the circumstances, he's probably the best the elves could hope for given the current public sentiment, and somehow getting rid of him, voluntarily or not, would probably hurt the cause of freeing the elves and granting them full human rights (or elven rights) more than it would help it.
I mean, why would they be treated in a way that could ultimately kill them before their time if they are that vital? It isn't like elves are an infinite resource, they WILL die out completely eventually, sooner rather than later with that treatment. Because of their much longer lifespans, they would be better suited to a level of treatment that allowed that lifespan to play out in its entirety to maximize their usefulness. Once they are no longer useful, then it would no longer impact their ability to serve the economy. It would be more economical to squeeze as much time as they can out of the elves.
 
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TheDevian

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Basically, as has most real life slavery.



I mean, why would they be treated in a way that could ultimately kill them before their time if they are that vital? It isn't like elves are an infinite resource, they WILL die out completely eventually, sooner rather than later with that treatment. Because of their much longer lifespans, they would be better suited to a level of treatment that allowed that lifespan to play out in its entirety to maximize their usefulness. Once they are no longer useful, then it would no longer impact their ability to serve the economy. It would be more economical to squeeze as much time as they can out of the elves.
Sadly, far too many humans don't think long term, they only care about the here and now, and what they can get out of it personally.
 

Corvus Belli

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I mean, why would they be treated in a way that could ultimately kill them before their time if they are that vital?
You might as well ask the same of real-world slavery, or any corporation that exists; every company or corporation in human history requires employees to function, and yet those companies and corporations couldn't care less about the health or well-being of their employees.
Every workplace health and safety initiative was the creation of labour union organizations advocating for the benefit of their members, and are enforced by the government, because no corporation follows those guidelines out of the goodness of their heart; if governments didn't enforce those programs, corporations wouldn't follow them.
 

alex2011

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Sadly, far too many humans don't think long term, they only care about the here and now, and what they can get out of it personally.
Which is a terrible mindset for thinking about an entire society's economy. It's fine for an individual, but when dealing with something as long term, and that can have very drastic long term effects on future generations, as the economy, they do need to think long term. If not for the elves, as if they would, then for their own future generations.

You might as well ask the same of real-world slavery, or any corporation that exists; every company or corporation in human history requires employees to function, and yet those companies and corporations couldn't care less about the health or well-being of their employees.
Every workplace health and safety initiative was the creation of labour union organizations advocating for the benefit of their members, and are enforced by the government, because no corporation follows those guidelines out of the goodness of their heart; if governments didn't enforce those programs, corporations wouldn't follow them.
Even the real world slavers and corporations know better than to treat the labor in a way that will lead to death and waste said labor. Slave labor is an asset that cannot be so easily replenished, even with the labor force of Syl'anar, the elves, being in the billions. Once they die out, so does Syl'anar. That makes the labor much more valuable than what the labor is used for with only one exception, breeding more into the labor force, but because of how that works, the offspring would live shorter lives from the start and would be even more valuable alive. Dead bodies don't contribute to the economy.
 
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c3p0

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Which is a terrible mindset for thinking about an entire society's economy. It's fine for an individual, but when dealing with something as long term, and that can have very drastic long term effects on future generations, as the economy, they do need to think long term. If not for the elves, as if they would, then for their own future generations.
Even the real world slavers and corporations know better than to treat the labor in a way that will lead to death and waste said labor.
Not really. The "world" or more most of huminity only have short time goals. For a manager this would be next financial year. If he had high numbers he get praised, a bonus and so on. Usually the higher the profit the better is it for the manager. What comes in a few years later, because eg. he had sold the cash cow for short time profit doesn't intrest many.
So he would be in many eyes a better manager than one that planned long term because you can't make the same profit.

Also humanity has proven again and again that the usually don't think for themselves in long term. Factories had disposed their waste in a manner that leads to the poison of the environment and people. To avoid to much connection between the disposal of their waste and the poison of the environment and people they only carry it to the next town or so, that it isn't that clear anymore what they really do.

Most of regulations for people and environment doens't come from the industrialist but from the country and worker class people.
Also it doesn't make that of a difference if you are in a developed country or developing country, because even in a developed country this happens - sure in a developing country even more.

So, in my eyes, humans usually are very short sighted and don't care about a lot what they don't affect themselve obviously.
 

alex2011

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Not really. The "world" or more most of huminity only have short time goals. For a manager this would be next financial year. If he had high numbers he get praised, a bonus and so on. Usually the higher the profit the better is it for the manager. What comes in a few years later, because eg. he had sold the cash cow for short time profit doesn't intrest many.
So he would be in many eyes a better manager than one that planned long term because you can't make the same profit.

Also humanity has proven again and again that the usually don't think for themselves in long term. Factories had disposed their waste in a manner that leads to the poison of the environment and people. To avoid to much connection between the disposal of their waste and the poison of the environment and people they only carry it to the next town or so, that it isn't that clear anymore what they really do.

Most of regulations for people and environment doens't come from the industrialist but from the country and worker class people.
Also it doesn't make that of a difference if you are in a developed country or developing country, because even in a developed country this happens - sure in a developing country even more.

So, in my eyes, humans usually are very short sighted and don't care about a lot what they don't affect themselve obviously.
But then, when the cash cow lies dead on the floor, no more money, short term or long. Profit for a single individual or company is one thing, supporting an entire economy is another entirely. Thinkiing in the short term works for the former, but try that with the latter and the society the economy is for will end up either indebted to another or dead in the water.
 

Rex Blue

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Androids are very expensive, especially in comparison to the price of a slave. When converted to USD, cheap slaves cost around $4,200 each. Androids on the other hand will cost closer to $70,000 each. They're very complex and delicate, but are not suited for actual work. For example, if someone wants to build a car factory, they don't build androids to build a car, they build car building robots (I'm sure you know what they look like already). The human form isn't the most efficient form for any of the work we do. So those jobs would be replaced with the right type of robot, or just a cheap expendable slave.
Good answer. I think Android gave me a false impression as to how capable Androids are in the setting. There were also the police bots that abducted Maria. It seemed like most of the androids are physically as capable as humans, though not as capable at innovating. The price is something I should have considered. I guess that I'd include enslaving a sentient being in the price, which is something the majority of Syl'anar would not.

There have been some very recent real world conflicts in which a relatively small group of poor people defeated the world's biggest and most advanced military in history. So just having guns, rocket launchers, vehicles, etc, are a big advantage, especially over bows and spears.

The fairies can be seen by high tech military security cameras, she and the fairies know where to avoid. Most of their spying is on the citizens so information is limited.
There are a couple conflicts you could be referring to here, but I'm pretty sure defeated would be a fairly strong word in most of those instances. First world countries have a fairly poor track record when it comes to invading third world countries and attempting to establish governments for them. Guerrilla actions tend to sap the will of those first world countries to fight, but I wouldn't call it a defeat. In addition, Syl'anar not seeing elves as people would hurt any counter insurgency. Collateral damage against elves? If Syl'anar held back, it would only be the loss of potential slavery capital that made them do so. Unless magic is much more powerful than we've seen, the elves don't stand a chance, regardless of weapons. The population discrepancy lends that even more weight.

I should have realized that fairies could be seen by some IR after Android saw them. Still, seems a little ridiculous that their spying could be replicated and superseded by a single computer with internet access. Has a fairy ever recommended that to the elf queen? I guess they might never have wanted to seeing as she's a raging bitch.

There is unfortunately no immortality pill the characters can take. If that were possible, that would more than likely be a huge theme in the plot.
I wasn't thinking a pill. Android bodies are immortal and Android (the individual) proves that code can evolve and think. It would be a long step to convert a living human's thoughts into code, but with Android as an example, it seems like a path that could maybe be explored. Then again, she's apparently a buggy mess, so maybe that's unreasonable.

It was absolutely my plan. The world appears and acts normal on the surface, but deeper down, it isn't at all. And it isn't my goal to show you these dark things to make you feel dark, the goal is to make the light brighter when it comes. To give you a reason and desire for justice so when it comes, it tastes sweeter.
I hope that's the way it works out. People are just so small against the weight of governments and corporations, especially as you've stated that abolitionists are being repressed. I'm looking forward to how you plan to confront such a massive city and system with a handful of cute girls and one true AI. Sounds like a bumpy ride, but I have faith in you as a writer.
 
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Corvus Belli

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If not for the elves, as if they would, then for their own future generations.
Are you a new visitor to our world? It might be different on your planet, but I'll give you a hint about humans; we're generally, on both an individual and a societal level, terrible at thinking about the long-term.
Humans tend not to limit their behaviours because of future consequences, and appeals to "oh, but think of the future generations" are laughably useless. As an example, you might want to take a quick peek at the environment, and consider that we've ravaged the one and only ecosystem that can support human life, by dumping a truly shocking amount of pollutants and plastics into the air and the water and the soil. You breath in micro-particles of plastic with every breath you take, and consume a plethora of toxins in your drinking water (the filtration systems don't get everything). We've been warned that this behaviour isn't sustainable since before I was born, and yet, we haven't even slowed down.

Even the real world slavers and corporations know better than to treat the labor in a way that will lead to death and waste said labor.
No, they really don't. Slave owners abused and killed slaves fairly regularly, all things considered, with the logic of "we can always get more slaves." It happened often enough that laws had to be enacted to limit it (with varying degrees of success), from Mesopotamia, to Ancient Rome, to Zhou Dynasty China, to the American South.
Companies and corporations have had their employees working in conditions inimicable to human health and longevity since the very inception of "companies"; factory conditions in the Industial Revolution were deplorable, because it was cheaper to replace employees who died than it was to implement safer working conditions. Same reason corporations break environmental safety laws with such regularity; if the cost of getting caught breaking the law is $50 million, but obeying the law costs them $250 million, what do you think the average corporation will do?

Slave labor is an asset that cannot be so easily replenished, even with the labor force of Syl'anar, the elves, being in the billions.
Of course it can. As long as the elvish population growth stays roughly comparable with their death rate, they're a renewable resource, same as humans are. If they've got a birth rate comparable to humans (which seems likely, if they number over a billion of them in only a few centuries), then they're giving birth to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 18.5 million offspring per year (average birth rate is 18.5 per 1,000). That means, even if 50,000 of them are being killed every single day of the year, their population will still remain constant. It's also worth noting that'd be a murder rate over 350 times greater than that of the modern-day US, and over 1,750 times greater than Western Europe.

Once they die out, so does Syl'anar.
And? That's a problem for tomorrow; I refer you to the earler point about human long-term thinking, and how much the species sucks at it. For further examples of this failing, I direct you towards the entirety of human history, where you'll be spoiled for choice.
 
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alex2011

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Are you a new visitor to our world? It might be different on your planet, but I'll give you a hint about humans; we're generally, on both an individual and a societal level, terrible at thinking about the long-term.
Humans tend not to limit their behaviours because of future consequences, and appeals to "oh, but think of the future generations" are laughably useless. As an example, you might want to take a quick peek at the environment, and consider that we've ravaged the one and only ecosystem that can support human life, by dumped a truly shocking amount of toxins and plastics into the air and the water and the soil. You breath in micro-particles of plastic with every breath you take, and consume a litany of toxins in your drinking water (the filtration systems don't get everything). We've been warned that this behaviour isn't sustainable since before I was born, and yet, we haven't even slowed down.


No, they really don't. Slave owners abused and killed slaves fairly regularly, all things considered, with the logic of "we can always get more slaves." It happened often enough that laws had to be enacted to limit it (with varying degrees of success), from Mesopotamia, to Ancient Rome, to Zhou Dynasty China, to the American South.
Companies and corporations have had their employees working in conditions inimicable to human health and longevity since the very inception of "companies"; factory conditions in the Industial Revolution were deplorable, because it was cheaper to replace employees who died than it was to implement safer working conditions. Same reason corporations break environmental safety laws with such regularity; if the cost of getting caught breaking the law is $50 million, but obeying the law costs them $250 million, what do you think the average corporation will do?


Of course it can. As long as the elvish population growth stays roughly comparable with their death rate, they're a renewable resource, same as humans are. If they've got a birth rate comparable to humans (which seems likely, if they number over a billion of them in only a few centuries), then they're giving birth to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 18.5 million offspring per year (average birth rate is 18.5 per 1,000). That means, even if 50,000 of them are being killed every single day of the year, their population will still remain constant.


And? That's a problem for tomorrow; I refer you to the earler point about human long-term thinking, and how much the species sucks at it. For further examples of this failing, I direct you towards the entirety of human history, where you'll be spoiled for choice.
Some humans are, some are fully capable of long term thought. The latter tend to be the ones who don't take up positions of authority over entire economies, though, while the former are typically politicians and the like, people who hold that power and squander it for short term gain when they could get so much more out of their position over a longer period. I'm not going to get into the example specifically because that would most certainly derail the thread and get us off of the base topic we are discussing, but if one does not think of the consequences, then they have already doomed themselves to fail sooner rather than later. Case in point, the mistreatment of the elves, which will eventually lead to an extinction that will end Syl'anar when, not if, it happens. In this case, yes, it IS going to happen no matter what the humans do, but what they are doing now is speeding up the process and that economy they have will be quite the rude awakening when, again not if, it comes crashing down and total chaos ensues.

The real world DOES know better, the problem isn't that they don't know, the problem is they don't care, which is actually much worse. In both cases, they believe(d) the enslaved are lower than humans and anything at that level or lower deserves to be treated like trash. That kind of thinking will lead to resource depletion, the resource being the labor provided by the elves in this case. Like with real world countries that rely on cheap labor or that did at one point, or even the colonies that became the US, the humans of Syl'anar won't want to get their hands dirty with the same labor when, again not if, the elves die out. Much like how the nobles that came to the new world, now the US, did not want to work, neither will the humans of Syl'anar and that will grind the economy to a screeching halt instantly.

That's my point, the elven birth rate WON'T stay at or above the death rate if this keeps up. Sooner rather than later, the death rate will overtake the birth rate. There's also the issue that those being born aren't necessarily pure elves and that means they don't share the super long lives of elves. This makes the labor of these offspring even more valuable because they are going to die sooner whether they are mistreated or not. Elves will last hundreds or even thousands of years if treated well enough, anyone less than a full elf will not and will have varying degrees of declining longevity depending on the amount of elven DNA they possess. Then you take mistreatment into account and they might even struggle to last a decade.

That WOULD be a problem of tomorrow if there wasn't mistreatment potentially shortening the lives of their laborers. By mistreating the elves, the humans of Syl'anar have turned the issue into a problem of today because they are making the elves die out faster and shortening the time they have to use the elves as labor. Then you take into account the lack of responsibility and will to work the humans will no doubt have, as has been the case in nearly every slave owning scenario in the real world, again I point to the colonies that became the US, and there's a major problem.
 
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TheDevian

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Even the real world slavers and corporations know better than to treat the labor in a way that will lead to death and waste said labor. Slave labor is an asset that cannot be so easily replenished, even with the labor force of Syl'anar, the elves, being in the billions. Once they die out, so does Syl'anar. That makes the labor much more valuable than what the labor is used for with only one exception, breeding more into the labor force, but because of how that works, the offspring would live shorter lives from the start and would be even more valuable alive. Dead bodies don't contribute to the economy.
Yeah, no, that is really not the case. They will work their employees to death, if they are not prevented. I know, because I was one of those people who was forced to do the work of 3 people, got hurt on the job, and they just paid the fine, and pushed me onto the government to care for. So now I am permanently disabled, and even if I were to try to find work again for some reason, like them taking my benefits away, I am blacklisted from ever working there again, because they had to pay my medical bills for making me disabled in the first place.

We catch corporations knowingly selling poison, we have them happily killing off their customers and employees, as long as it turns a profit. Long term is not the goal, it is all about that fiscal quarter, and the next quarter is the next quarter's problem. In fact, corporations are some of the worst examples of this, because of the way it is designed to care only about short term profits. Since that is how their higher ups are rewarded.
But then, when the cash cow lies dead on the floor, no more money, short term or long. Profit for a single individual or company is one thing, supporting an entire economy is another entirely. Thinkiing in the short term works for the former, but try that with the latter and the society the economy is for will end up either indebted to another or dead in the water.
But for that to work, people have to give a shit about the company and the people who work there. They milk it for everything they can get, and move on to the next one when/if it fails. The main issue here is that corporations are controlled by the board, which answers to the investors, who only care about their investment, not even the company. In the old days, we could take short term losses to invest in the futures, but now short term losses are not acceptable. We can even see examples of that here on this site, where a dev can work on a game, drop it, move onto another one, and repeat this as long as people still support them.

We also have the tax incentive, the lower the highest tax rates are, the less incentive the leaders of that company have to invest that money back into the company. As an example, at one time in our country, we had the highest tax rate (for income over a certain amount), was about 90%, so rather than take that money as income and give most of it to the government as taxes, they would reinvest in their companies, pay their employees better, and so on. Then they lowered that tax rate, and all of that stopped, the less they have to pay, the more they keep for themselves and the less they put back into the company. History speaks for itself. While greed has its place, it is an addictive beast, and it blinds you to anything other than how to get more.
Some humans are, some are fully capable of long term thought. The latter tend to be the ones who don't take up positions of authority over entire economies, though, while the former are typically politicians and the like, people who hold that power and squander it for short term gain when they could get so much more out of their position over a longer period. I'm not going to get into the example specifically because that would most certainly derail the thread and get us off of the base topic we are discussing, but if one does not think of the consequences, then they have already doomed themselves to fail sooner rather than later. Case in point, the mistreatment of the elves, which will eventually lead to an extinction that will end Syl'anar when, not if, it happens. In this case, yes, it IS going to happen no matter what the humans do, but what they are doing now is speeding up the process and that economy they have will be quite the rude awakening when, again not if, it comes crashing down and total chaos ensues.

The real world DOES know better, the problem isn't that they don't know, the problem is they don't care, which is actually much worse. In both cases, they believe(d) the enslaved are lower than humans and anything at that level or lower deserves to be treated like trash. That kind of thinking will lead to resource depletion, the resource being the labor provided by the elves in this case. Like with real world countries that rely on cheap labor or that did at one point, or even the colonies that became the US, the humans of Syl'anar won't want to get their hands dirty with the same labor when, again not if, the elves die out. Much like how the nobles that came to the new world, now the US, did not want to work, neither will the humans of Syl'anar and that will grind the economy to a screeching halt instantly.

That's my point, the elven birth rate WON'T stay at or above the death rate if this keeps up. Sooner rather than later, the death rate will overtake the birth rate. There's also the issue that those being born aren't necessarily pure elves and that means they don't share the super long lives of elves. This makes the labor of these offspring even more valuable because they are going to die sooner whether they are mistreated or not. Elves will last hundreds or even thousands of years if treated well enough, anyone less than a full elf will not and will have varying degrees of declining longevity depending on the amount of elven DNA they possess. Then you take mistreatment into account and they might even struggle to last a decade.

That WOULD be a problem of tomorrow if there wasn't mistreatment potentially shortening the lives of their laborers. By mistreating the elves, the humans of Syl'anar have turned the issue into a problem of today because they are making the elves die out faster and shortening the time they have to use the elves as labor. Then you take into account the lack of responsibility and will to work the humans will no doubt have, as has been the case in nearly every slave owning scenario in the real world, again I point to the colonies that became the US, and there's a major problem.
The people who do look to the future, are not only rarely drawn to power, they are rarely willing to do what is needed to obtain that power, and in those rare cases when they do, they are then indebted and/or controlled by those special interests who control everything with their "donations".

You are right, that the birth rate may not always stay at the rate it is, which might be part of why they are not including half elves in the elf rights laws, creating a new workforce. Forced breeding is a thing, look at Handmaiden. But here is the thing, by the time this becomes an issue, those people who are in charge will be long dead, or at least out of power, so they just don't care. 'The birth rate drops, they can start up factory farms, cloning, etc., whatever, that is something the future generations can deal with ...not my problem.'

Even if they cut the average lifespan of elves in half, none of them will live to see the end result. Those elves still would outlive their average human several times over. It will take far longer for that problem to show than it did in any real world examples, since no slave here could live for centuries.

Look at climate change, we have been warning about the damage of pollution for most of the last century, but we still refuse to do anything about it, because short term matters more to the people in charge than longer term. They only care about staying in power, and will do anything to make that happen, no matter how stupid and short sighted it is, as long as they get money and power.

This is the case with almost every issue pollution, elf slavery, robot warriors, whatever the issue, long term only matters, if it aligns with their short term goals. While yes, many people are capable of thinking long term, the hard part is getting society and the people in charge of it to care enough to do anything about it.

Which, brings me to another way in which we could change society in this game, once Kali's dad dies, and the girls inherit most of his empire, we could start funding anti-slavery people, use smear campaigns against the pro-slavery candidates, and so on. That could be one way to get Vanessa elected. ;)
 
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Corvus Belli

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Case in point, the mistreatment of the elves, which will eventually lead to an extinction that will end Syl'anar when, not if, it happens.
What extinction? There are over a billion of them, vastly more than when humans arrived on the continent, because they're being breed like livestock; there is precisely zero evidence to support the idea that elvish population levels are dropping precipitously enough for their extinction to be a legitimate concern. Repeated assertion of "when, not if, they go extinct" doesn't make it true. There's no indication they're dying in the massive numbers that'd be required for their extinction to be imminent.

That's my point, the elven birth rate WON'T stay at or above the death rate if this keeps up. Sooner rather than later, the death rate will overtake the birth rate.
As I already pointed out, you'd have to be killing over 50,000 elves a day, every day, before the population level begins to drop even a single birth below replacement-level fertility. Again, that's the entire US annual homicide rate occuring every day. So, no, it's not a matter of "sooner rather than later"; there is simply no evidence their population is shrinking as a result of human mistreatment. Quite the opposite, actually, given how much their population has increased since the human invasion.

There's also the issue that those being born aren't necessarily pure elves and that means they don't share the super long lives of elves.
You're right, they only live half as long; that's still about 500 years, though (i.e. longer than the nation of Syl'anar has existed). We also don't know what percentage of their births are half-elf; any human procreating with an elf results in a half-elf, but every elven couple forced to procreate in breeding facilities results in another elf.

This makes the labor of these offspring even more valuable because they are going to die sooner whether they are mistreated or not.
Yes, but "sooner" is still longer than the lifespan of most countries, and so therefore outside consideration from a human perspective. Again, humans think in the short-term, and even those who might think "long-term" still aren't thinking about the state of the economy into the mid-26th century, any more than the British East India Company were concerned about the 22nd-century economy. From a human perspective, the labour value of an elf who'll live 1000 years and a half-elf who'll live 500 is functionally identical, because both will still be alive when your great, great-grandchildren have died of old age.

That WOULD be a problem of tomorrow if there wasn't mistreatment potentially shortening the lives of their laborers.
Who cares if a few elves die a little sooner? There are always more elves to do the job. That's the thought process, and we know that because that was the thought process of real-world slave owners, and real-world companies who were killing their employees through negligence; who cares if all the toxic fumes in the factory are killing workers, you can always get more workers. If it cost more to prevent the harm than it did to replace the dead, they didn't bother. They still don't. Are you at all familair with the Recall Formula? If you don't put cash value on the cost of a human life, then corporations will act as if that value is $0.
Even if you reduce an elves lifespan by 300 years, they'll still be alive 700 years after you're dead. Since the people who own elves only care about how they'll benefit them in their lifetime, they're only thinking in terms of years, decades at best. Hypothetical Slave Owner X buys Lin, and mistreats her, cutting her lifespan in half (meaning she'll die in 200 years, instead of living another 700). What does he care? She'll still be useful every day of his life. What happens to her after he dies means less than nothing to him.
 
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c3p0

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Which, brings me to another way in which we could change society in this game, once Kali's dad dies, and the girls inherit most of his empire, we could start funding anti-slavery people, use smear campaigns against the pro-slavery candidates, and so on. That could be one way to get Vanessa elected. ;)
Interesting idea, yet, I'm curious if they let Kali do this or if they use some nonsense to limit her power or even take over her empire.
 

TheDevian

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You're right, they only live half as long; that's still about 500 years, though (i.e. longer than the nation of Syl'anar has existed). We also don't know what percentage of their births are half-elf; any human procreating with an elf results in a half-elf, but every elven couple forced to procreate in breeding facilities results in another elf.
Depends on the type of elf, we are talking common and high, the dark elves don't live near as long, but yeah. ;)
Who cares if a few elves die a little sooner? There are always more elves to do the job. That's the thought process, and we know that because that was the thought process of real-world slave owners, and real-world companies who were killing their employees through negligence; who cares if all the toxic fumes in the factory are killing workers, you can always get more workers. If it cost more to prevent the harm than it did to replace the dead, they didn't bother. They still don't. Are you at all familair with the Recall Formula? If you don't put cash value on the cost of a human life, then corporations will act as if that value is $0.
Even if you reduce an elves lifespan by 300 years, they'll still be alive 700 years after you're dead. Since the people who own elves only care about how they'll benefit them in their lifetime, they're only thinking in terms of years, decades at best. Hypothetical Slave Owner X buys Lin, and mistreats her, cutting her lifespan in half (meaning she'll die in 200 years, instead of living another 700). What does he care? She'll still be useful every day of his life. What happens to her after he dies means less than nothing to him.
It's the same thought process with minimum wage slaves, 'we can always get more trained monkeys', this is why they are always trying to limit education.
Interesting idea, yet, I'm curious if they let Kali do this or if they use some nonsense to limit her power or even take over her empire.
So far, she doesn't have much, and even in the end, she won't get all of it, maybe even between both sisters, they won't get all of it, but even if they each only get a small fraction by the end of her story, their family will have access to more money than some small countries, and with some good investments and a few successful endeavors, they could leverage that into more than enough money to fund a political revolution. Could even use Political Action Committees to hide who is funding it, so it won't hurt the company's "image" to the racist public.
 

Corvus Belli

Member
Nov 25, 2017
188
370
Interesting idea, yet, I'm curious if they let Kali do this or if they use some nonsense to limit her power or even take over her empire.
It's a fictional setting, so I'm uncertain of the intricacies of their legal systems, but Kali's father isn't a citizen of Syl'anar, and I'm uncertain if Kali is or not.
If she isn't, then in the event she inherits her fathers assets, including Nero Inc., then the government of Syl'anar couldn't do anything to take it from her (if their legal systems are anything like those of the real-world). They could refuse to do business with her, though given the companies size and scope, that might be difficult.
It also depends on how much control she'd have; is there a Board of Directors, or is Trenero running the company essentially as a king? Did Trenero buy out all his investors over the years? Is it a publically traded company?
 
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TheDevian

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It's a fictional setting, so I'm unertain of the intricacies of their legal systems, but Kali's father isn't a citizen of Syl'anar, and I'm uncertain if Kali is or not.
If she isn't, then in the event she inhereits her fathers assets, including Nero Inc., then the government of Syl'anar couldn't do anything to take it from her (if their legal systems are anything like those of the real-world). They could refuse to do business with her, though given the companies size and scope, that might be difficult. It also depends on how much control she'd have; is there a Board of Directors, or is Trenero running the company essentially as a king? Did Trenero buy out all his investors over the years? Is it a publically traded company?
Very true, I was thinking in different terms, but that is a good point. That said, secret shadow committees could be set up to do that stuff, and keep her public image clean (ignoring the exhibitionism).

Can't remember if it is publicly traded or not...
 

Corvus Belli

Member
Nov 25, 2017
188
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Depends on the type of elf, we are talking common and high, the dark elves don't live near as long, but yeah. ;)
Runey and I discussed this fairly recently. To me, "half-elf" means only one human parent and one elven parent, whether they be common elf, dark elf, desert elf or whatever. Runey, however, seems to consider "half elf" to be a colloquial shorthand for "half common elf" specifically. By his definition, Maria isn't a "half elf", she's a "half dark elf", which he regards as being noticeably different.
But, to the current topic, yes, I meant half common elf.
 

alex2011

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Feb 28, 2017
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Yeah, no, that is really not the case. They will work their employees to death, if they are not prevented. I know, because I was one of those people who was forced to do the work of 3 people, got hurt on the job, and they just paid the fine, and pushed me onto the government to care for. So now I am permanently disabled, and even if I were to try to find work again for some reason, like them taking my benefits away, I am blacklisted from ever working there again, because they had to pay my medical bills for making me disabled in the first place.

We catch corporations knowingly selling poison, we have them happily killing off their customers and employees, as long as it turns a profit. Long term is not the goal, it is all about that fiscal quarter, and the next quarter is the next quarter's problem. In fact, corporations are some of the worst examples of this, because of the way it is designed to care only about short term profits. Since that is how their higher ups are rewarded.

But for that to work, people have to give a shit about the company and the people who work there. They milk it for everything they can get, and move on to the next one when/if it fails. The main issue here is that corporations are controlled by the board, which answers to the investors, who only care about their investment, not even the company. In the old days, we could take short term losses to invest in the futures, but now short term losses are not acceptable. We can even see examples of that here on this site, where a dev can work on a game, drop it, move onto another one, and repeat this as long as people still support them.

We also have the tax incentive, the lower the highest tax rates are, the less incentive the leaders of that company have to invest that money back into the company. As an example, at one time in our country, we had the highest tax rate (for income over a certain amount), was about 90%, so rather than take that money as income and give most of it to the government as taxes, they would reinvest in their companies, pay their employees better, and so on. Then they lowered that tax rate, and all of that stopped, the less they have to pay, the more they keep for themselves and the less they put back into the company. History speaks for itself. While greed has its place, it is an addictive beast, and it blinds you to anything other than how to get more.

The people who do look to the future, are not only rarely drawn to power, they are rarely willing to do what is needed to obtain that power, and in those rare cases when they do, they are then indebted and/or controlled by those special interests who control everything with their "donations".

You are right, that the birth rate may not always stay at the rate it is, which might be part of why they are not including half elves in the elf rights laws, creating a new workforce. Forced breeding is a thing, look at Handmaiden. But here is the thing, by the time this becomes an issue, those people who are in charge will be long dead, or at least out of power, so they just don't care. 'The birth rate drops, they can start up factory farms, cloning, etc., whatever, that is something the future generations can deal with ...not my problem.'

Even if they cut the average lifespan of elves in half, none of them will live to see the end result. Those elves still would outlive their average human several times over. It will take far longer for that problem to show than it did in any real world examples, since no slave here could live for centuries.

Look at climate change, we have been warning about the damage of pollution for most of the last century, but we still refuse to do anything about it, because short term matters more to the people in charge than longer term. They only care about staying in power, and will do anything to make that happen, no matter how stupid and short sighted it is, as long as they get money and power.

This is the case with almost every issue pollution, elf slavery, robot warriors, whatever the issue, long term only matters, if it aligns with their short term goals. While yes, many people are capable of thinking long term, the hard part is getting society and the people in charge of it to care enough to do anything about it.

Which, brings me to another way in which we could change society in this game, once Kali's dad dies, and the girls inherit most of his empire, we could start funding anti-slavery people, use smear campaigns against the pro-slavery candidates, and so on. That could be one way to get Vanessa elected. ;)
Like I said, they DO know better, but they don't care. The real world slavers and corporations know the risks and are doing it anyway. While different from not knowing any better, it has the same effect. Either way, people don't get treated right and that treatment, if left to continue, leads to injury or worse. As you said, you went through it, got hurt, and they just paid the fine instead of fixing the issue. Your employer didn't fail to notice the issue, they just chose not to change anything to get rid of it. The same is happening in game, the humans know perfectly well what this treatment will eventually result in for the elves and are choosing to continue said treatment.

People don't have to care about the company, or in the game's case Syl'anar's economy, to try to wring out maximum profit over the long term, they just have to care enough about profits that they see the long term benefit of keeping the assets in working condition, in this case keeping the elves alive, as that goes a long way in maximizing profits. Much farther than trying to milk the short term would. Here's the thing with investors, all they care about is the big dollar sign and they wouldn't be very pleased to realize that the company they invest in isn't taking the route that maximizes the money going into said investors' pockets. In fact, it would cause major turmoil for the company because the investors would be in an uproar. When the investors aren't happy, the board isn't happy and that cascades down the chain in a way that could lead to major layoffs. The thing preventing that in the real world, the investors don't know this is happening. They only see what they are told and that doesn't include the potential benefits of looking at the long term and acting on them. The same with the people who Cornwall was after with his reforms, they only see the facade, they don't see what is going on behind it, which is the mistreatment that could cost Syl'anar its economy.

I can see where you're coming from with the half elves, but that comes at the cost of longevity. They won't live nearly as long, mistreatment or no mistreatment, and that means less benefit in both the short and the long term. Forced breeding I could see and I did take that into account as a possibility, in fact, I'm almost certain the more radical owners are doing it off screen whether it is breeding the elves themselves to create half elves or lesser or pairing them to create full elves. However, as the mistreatment continues, breeding capability will also be affected much like how animal breeding is affected as animals of certain species are hunted. There may be some in captivity under breeding programs to repopulate the species, but those only have so much they can do because only so many pairs are being bred. The death rate in this real world example is already higher than the birth rate for many of the species in this kind of situation. Once the death rate exceeds the birth rate for the elves, the only fix is to lower the death rate, which means stopping the mistreatment. If the mistreatment continues, you may very well be proven wrong in the humans in charge now outlasting their elven slaves. This mistreatment, if I am correct, is raising the death rate, causing more elves to die earlier and earlier and they will continue to last for shorter and shorter periods of time as it continues, instead dying due to the effects of mistreatment. If they were allowed to live their full lives, even if as laborers, they would indeed last longer than the current generation of humans in Syl'anar, but the mistreatment could kill them at any point, even the very day the latest case of it occurs.

This isn't just potentially cutting elven lives in half, it could be outright ending elven lives in the immediate future. I'm not talking about slowly declining health from the mistreatment, though that is part of the issue, I'm talking mistreatment so bad that the elves just die right there as a direct result. Maybe a particularly radical owner likes to beat his elves, that could lead to death by blunt force trauma. I'm not saying it is happening, but what I am saying is that the effects of the mistreatment are not only long term, they CAN result in death in the immediate future for any given elf.

I love the way you think on that last part, that would be insanely effective aassumiing Cornwall doesn't already have a way to counter. Give them a bit of US election debate antics, smearing one candidate in an election while promoting another, and they won't know what hit them, especially if it is so well funded that our side has a monopoly on media time. If there's anything that wins an election, it's buying out as much media presence as possible.

What extinction? There are over a billion of them, vastly more than when humans arrived on the continent, because they're being breed like livestock; there is precisely zero evidence to support the idea that elvish population levels are dropping precipitously enough for their extinction to be a legitimate concern. Repeated assertion of "when, not if, they go extinct" doesn't make it true. There's no indication they're dying in the massive numbers that'd be required for their extinction to be imminent.


As I already pointed out, you'd have to be killing over 50,000 elves a day, every day, before the population level begins to drop even a single birth below replacement-level fertility. Again, that's the entire US annual homicide rate occuring every day. So, no, it's not a matter of "sooner rather than later"; there is simply no evidence their population is shrinking as a result of human mistreatment. Quite the opposite, actually, given how much their population has increased since the human invasion.


You're right, they only live half as long; that's still about 500 years, though (i.e. longer than the nation of Syl'anar has existed). We also don't know what percentage of their births are half-elf; any human procreating with an elf results in a half-elf, but every elven couple forced to procreate in breeding facilities results in another elf.


Yes, but "sooner" is still longer than the lifespan of most countries, and so therefore outside consideration from a human perspective. Again, humans think in the short-term, and even those who might think "long-term" still aren't thinking about the state of the economy into the mid-26th century, any more than the British East India Company were concerned about the 22nd-century economy. From a human perspective, the labour value of an elf who'll live 1000 years and a half-elf who'll live 500 is functionally identical, because both will still be alive when your great, great-grandchildren have died of old age.


Who cares if a few elves die a little sooner? There are always more elves to do the job. That's the thought process, and we know that because that was the thought process of real-world slave owners, and real-world companies who were killing their employees through negligence; who cares if all the toxic fumes in the factory are killing workers, you can always get more workers. If it cost more to prevent the harm than it did to replace the dead, they didn't bother. They still don't. Are you at all familair with the Recall Formula? If you don't put cash value on the cost of a human life, then corporations will act as if that value is $0.
Even if you reduce an elves lifespan by 300 years, they'll still be alive 700 years after you're dead. Since the people who own elves only care about how they'll benefit them in their lifetime, they're only thinking in terms of years, decades at best. Hypothetical Slave Owner X buys Lin, and mistreats her, cutting her lifespan in half (meaning she'll die in 200 years, instead of living another 700). What does he care? She'll still be useful every day of his life. What happens to her after he dies means less than nothing to him.
What Extinction? The extinction of the elven race, of course. There are over a billion, but a billion is not infinity. Syl'anar does not have a source of labor that is both infinite and affordable. The androids could be considered infinite, but employing them in numbers large enough to support the economy of Syl'anar would be way too expensive and could not be maintained. The replacement of elves with androids would fall apart shortly after it was started because of the cost. They may be getting bred, but as I said above, once the death rate is higher than the birth rate can possibly be, then it is too late to rely on breeding, the only way at that point is to lower the death rate. There is also zero evidence to support that mistreatment isn't having an adverse effect on the elves' ability to live, causing the death rate to rise. We have no real evidence in either direction. That assertion is already true, every living creature dies at some point, so it is not a matter of if the elves die, it is a matter of when. Extinction is also inevitable as it is the end of a species, all species will have their time to die out, but when that happens can be adversely affected by the conditions the species lives in. For example, the elves being mistreated is a condition that hurries the extinction of the elven race through deaths caused by said treatment that exceed the elves' ability to breed fast enough.

The next part is assuming there are at least 50,000 elves being bred. Remember, you also have to take into account how long each birth takes and how easy it is to impregnate an elf. I'm pretty sure there is no mention of how long HH elves take to birth offspring or how easy they are to impregnate, so I will go off of general depiction, which is roughly the same as humans. The key is the ease of impregnation, which is generally MUCH harder than humans as elves are often depicted as almost impossible to get pregnant. There are multiple factors that play into the birth rate, not just the number being used as breeding stock. There WILL be failed attempts to breed due to some of these other factors and it WILL lower the total possible breeding rate. Even if you breed exactly 50,000 elves, it is still VERY possible to only get 100 offspring, which is such a low amount that it wouldn't even put a dent in the death rate.

Yes, half as long, so they only have half the amount of time to give for labor and that's only under treatment that allows them to live full lives. Like full elves, half elves won't live that long under severe enough mistreatment.

Sooner is not necessarily that long, even, as when I said sooner, I was taking into account the potential for death as a direct result of mistreatment, which as I said before, can make death come at any time, not just at a sooner point, but at any point. Their body could give out and they could die on the job one day all because they weren't given treatment that allowed them to survive.

No, there aren't always more. As large a population as they have, elves are still a finite resource that WILL be expended. Once the elves go extinct, what elves are they going to replace the dead ones with? There aren't any left at that point. Again, we're not just talking the reduction of lifespans, but potentially the outright ending of lives that, if the mistreatment continues, will result in no more elves being alive. This COULD happen over a long period of time, maybe several hundred years, or it COULD happen in the next decade because the elves were just in such bad shape that they started dying off on the job en masse. We're talking death by injury, death by stress, death by illness, any manner of death not caused by old age.

Depends on the type of elf, we are talking common and high, the dark elves don't live near as long, but yeah. ;)

It's the same thought process with minimum wage slaves, 'we can always get more trained monkeys', this is why they are always trying to limit education.

So far, she doesn't have much, and even in the end, she won't get all of it, maybe even between both sisters, they won't get all of it, but even if they each only get a small fraction by the end of her story, their family will have access to more money than some small countries, and with some good investments and a few successful endeavors, they could leverage that into more than enough money to fund a political revolution. Could even use Political Action Committees to hide who is funding it, so it won't hurt the company's "image" to the racist public.
Unless her father gives her more power at some point, possibly in preparation to take over when something happens that means his own reign is coming to an end. He could also just give it all to her thinking she'll continue it as it is or grow it to be bigger. He is the top brass there aside from possibly a board. Either way, I don't think money will be an issue once she gets her share, however small it may be, because, as you said, it would still be bigger than some small countries have and would be plenty to wage a political war, not an actual violent war, but a war fought in the political arena. With the amount she gets, she could probably buy out more than enough media coverage to effectively end her opponents before they can fight back.
 
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TheDevian

Svengali Productions
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Mar 8, 2018
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Like I said, they DO know better, but they don't care. The real world slavers and corporations know the risks and are doing it anyway. While different from not knowing any better, it has the same effect. Either way, people don't get treated right and that treatment, if left to continue, leads to injury or worse. As you said, you went through it, got hurt, and they just paid the fine instead of fixing the issue. Your employer didn't fail to notice the issue, they just chose not to change anything to get rid of it. The same is happening in game, the humans know perfectly well what this treatment will eventually result in for the elves and are choosing to continue said treatment.

People don't have to care about the company, or in the game's case Syl'anar's economy, to try to wring out maximum profit over the long term, they just have to care enough about profits that they see the long term benefit of keeping the assets in working condition, in this case keeping the elves alive, as that goes a long way in maximizing profits. Much farther than trying to milk the short term would. Here's the thing with investors, all they care about is the big dollar sign and they wouldn't be very pleased to realize that the company they invest in isn't taking the route that maximizes the money going into said investors' pockets. In fact, it would cause major turmoil for the company because the investors would be in an uproar. When the investors aren't happy, the board isn't happy and that cascades down the chain in a way that could lead to major layoffs. The thing preventing that in the real world, the investors don't know this is happening. They only see what they are told and that doesn't include the potential benefits of looking at the long term and acting on them. The same with the people who Cornwall was after with his reforms, they only see the facade, they don't see what is going on behind it, which is the mistreatment that could cost Syl'anar its economy.

I can see where you're coming from with the half elves, but that comes at the cost of longevity. They won't live nearly as long, mistreatment or no mistreatment, and that means less benefit in both the short and the long term. Forced breeding I could see and I did take that into account as a possibility, in fact, I'm almost certain the more radical owners are doing it off screen whether it is breeding the elves themselves to create half elves or lesser or pairing them to create full elves. However, as the mistreatment continues, breeding capability will also be affected much like how animal breeding is affected as animals of certain species are hunted. There may be some in captivity under breeding programs to repopulate the species, but those only have so much they can do because only so many pairs are being bred. The death rate in this real world example is already higher than the birth rate for many of the species in this kind of situation. Once the death rate exceeds the birth rate for the elves, the only fix is to lower the death rate, which means stopping the mistreatment. If the mistreatment continues, you may very well be proven wrong in the humans in charge now outlasting their elven slaves. This mistreatment, if I am correct, is raising the death rate, causing more elves to die earlier and earlier and they will continue to last for shorter and shorter periods of time as it continues, instead dying due to the effects of mistreatment. If they were allowed to live their full lives, even if as laborers, they would indeed last longer than the current generation of humans in Syl'anar, but the mistreatment could kill them at any point, even the very day the latest case of it occurs.

This isn't just potentially cutting elven lives in half, it could be outright ending elven lives in the immediate future. I'm not talking about slowly declining health from the mistreatment, though that is part of the issue, I'm talking mistreatment so bad that the elves just die right there as a direct result. Maybe a particularly radical owner likes to beat his elves, that could lead to death by blunt force trauma. I'm not saying it is happening, but what I am saying is that the effects of the mistreatment are not only long term, they CAN result in death in the immediate future for any given elf.

I love the way you think on that last part, that would be insanely effective aassumiing Cornwall doesn't already have a way to counter. Give them a bit of US election debate antics, smearing one candidate in an election while promoting another, and they won't know what hit them, especially if it is so well funded that our side has a monopoly on media time. If there's anything that wins an election, it's buying out as much media presence as possible.


What Extinction? The extinction of the elven race, of course. There are over a billion, but a billion is not infinity. Syl'anar does not have a source of labor that is both infinite and affordable. The androids could be considered infinite, but employing them in numbers large enough to support the economy of Syl'anar would be way too expensive and could not be maintained. The replacement of elves with androids would fall apart shortly after it was started because of the cost. They may be getting bred, but as I said above, once the death rate is higher than the birth rate can possibly be, then it is too late to rely on breeding, the only way at that point is to lower the death rate. There is also zero evidence to support that mistreatment isn't having an adverse effect on the elves' ability to live, causing the death rate to rise. We have no real evidence in either direction. That assertion is already true, every living creature dies at some point, so it is not a matter of if the elves die, it is a matter of when. Extinction is also inevitable as it is the end of a species, all species will have their time to die out, but when that happens can be adversely affected by the conditions the species lives in. For example, the elves being mistreated is a condition that hurries the extinction of the elven race through deaths caused by said treatment that exceed the elves' ability to breed fast enough.

The next part is assuming there are at least 50,000 elves being bred. Remember, you also have to take into account how long each birth takes and how easy it is to impregnate an elf. I'm pretty sure there is no mention of how long HH elves take to birth offspring or how easy they are to impregnate, so I will go off of general depiction, which is roughly the same as humans. The key is the ease of impregnation, which is generally MUCH harder than humans as elves are often depicted as almost impossible to get pregnant. There are multiple factors that play into the birth rate, not just the number being used as breeding stock. There WILL be failed attempts to breed due to some of these other factors and it WILL lower the total possible breeding rate. Even if you breed exactly 50,000 elves, it is still VERY possible to only get 100 offspring, which is such a low amount that it wouldn't even put a dent in the death rate.

Yes, half as long, so they only have half the amount of time to give for labor and that's only under treatment that allows them to live full lives. Like full elves, half elves won't live that long under severe enough mistreatment.

Sooner is not necessarily that long, even, as when I said sooner, I was taking into account the potential for death as a direct result of mistreatment, which as I said before, can make death come at any time, not just at a sooner point, but at any point. Their body could give out and they could die on the job one day all because they weren't given treatment that allowed them to survive.

No, there aren't always more. As large a population as they have, elves are still a finite resource that WILL be expended. Once the elves go extinct, what elves are they going to replace the dead ones with? There aren't any left at that point. Again, we're not just talking the reduction of lifespans, but potentially the outright ending of lives that, if the mistreatment continues, will result in no more elves being alive. This COULD happen over a long period of time, maybe several hundred years, or it COULD happen in the next decade because the elves were just in such bad shape that they started dying off on the job en masse. We're talking death by injury, death by stress, death by illness, any manner of death not caused by old age.


Unless her father gives her more power at some point, possibly in preparation to take over when something happens that means his own reign is coming to an end. He could also just give it all to her thinking she'll continue it as it is or grow it to be bigger. He is the top brass there aside from possibly a board. Either way, I don't think money will be an issue once she gets her share, however small it may be, because, as you said, it would still be bigger than some small countries have and would be plenty to wage a political war, not an actual violent war, but a war fought in the political arena. With the amount she gets, she could probably buy out more than enough media coverage to effectively end her opponents before they can fight back.
Yes, some know better, some don't, but they don't care, that is exactly my point. They only care about how it affects them in the here and now. Short term gain, outweighs any long term benefits. We see it all over the place. Their greed is killing us.

Again, this loss of longevity doesn't really affect them, as they will be dead long before that would matter. When talking about the common elves, Lin is about 300, which is the equivalent of 20ish of a human, meaning her natural lifespan would be 4-5 times that. Half of that for the half elf would still be 6-800 years.

You keep saying that the death rate is higher, but we have no evidence of that other than with the free elves, mostly due to being captured, and not being able to live that way. You can't raise a thriving society when you have to live in hiding and on the run. Unless I am forgetting something (very possible), I don't remember anything to show their population is declining.

Even if they are heading for extinction due to low birthrates, this is a long term problem, and we have shown that the people don't care about things that far into the future. Even if they shorten the elves' lives by 50-75% they still out live us by several generations.

--------------​

As for Kali, from what I remember, his plan is to start giving her power once she finishes school, and that will increase as she shows that she can handle it. I also would say that the MC could, at least in theory, be a possible figurehead, to help make decisions, leaving her to do what she loves (she has stated that she hates the business part of it). Better to see her grow into it, but she always has him there for support.

That said, even if she leaves running the company to the board, and just focuses on making things, living off of her stocks and other earnings, she will have more than enough to help fund a political campaign, we have seen similar examples in real life. I could give a long list, but that would get us too far into real world politics.
 
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