VN Ren'Py Abandoned Heir Apparent [v.0.02] [SilkandMilkProductions]

3.80 star(s) 46 Votes

doktorn69

Newbie
Apr 8, 2021
19
256
I've been a follower of Silk since the early days of PI, and I can understand his frustrations when it comes to development. Why work on a product that you put your hours into if you're not going to get something out of it? The love of development? Are you also the kind of person that wants a football or baseball player to play their respective sports without compensation? You want artists to just give their art away? Working on these visual novels takes time, effort, and heck of a lot of heart to not only put the game out there for you whiners to pick apart, but to also stay motivated, especially when there's little incentive to do so. Try thinking about this in terms of you working a job and not being compensated at a level you should be and then rethink your whining a bit.

I almost cried when Primal Instinct was abandoned because the story was one of my favorites at the time and the quality of both the renders and the interesting story were ahead of its time, but without the backers there wasn't much point to continuing.

Heir Apparent is less than an hour long and some of you are saying that the story is "basic incest". Uhm... That's like saying that Game of Thrones is about The Stark Family enjoying some time at their castle. Give it some time and pledge if you're even the least bit interested in the tiny peek into Heir Apparent. I know I am.
You do realise footballers and other sportsmen put in ridiculous amounts of time to reach levels where they can get paid loads of money, right?

Silk is digging his own grave with his attituted towards the community and people wont feel encouraged to pledge towards something that's risked being abandoned again.

He's extremely talented but he needs to work harder before he can rise in popularity and make the money he wants, although I'm not sure that'll ever be possible since he's damaged his own reputation heavily all by himself...
 

JBZ

Active Member
Aug 1, 2020
636
1,559
Fantastic renders. A very good start.
But the eyes of Summer look a little like those of Alita. ;)

HA037.jpg alita.jpg



The game is a good example why you should play without textbox. :cool:
HA_01.jpg HA_02.jpg
 
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Jan 22, 2020
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You do realise footballers and other sportsmen put in ridiculous amounts of time to reach levels where they can get paid loads of money, right?

Silk is digging his own grave with his attituted towards the community and people wont feel encouraged to pledge towards something that's risked being abandoned again.

He's extremely talented but he needs to work harder before he can rise in popularity and make the money he wants, although I'm not sure that'll ever be possible since he's damaged his own reputation heavily all by himself...
Do you not think Silk put in a lot of hours to become as talented as he is right now? You think being able to render that well just comes natural to people? Do you think he doesn't touch up scenes post-build on renders? I understand what you're saying because I felt the same way about Silk's attitude, but after getting the same treatment with my writing, it's entirely understandable to feel the way he does.
 

Euron13

Member
Apr 7, 2019
457
732
Was going to edit my last post, but for safety, I suppose I won't...

I guess I've got to sort of commend the dev for at least being straight forward and honest. They didn't need to, and I don't think there was any doubt it would get significant blowback, so... At least anybody going to join their Patreon is adequately informed. That's good.

I don't think it's a realistic way to produce good games in this genre right now, and I also think they are not properly considering the effects of reputation. But, that's their problem, I guess.

However this has very much killed any hope I had for having hope about this game. The only way to have a shot at having consistently good quality and loads of choices is to sacrifice time between releases. Or at least time between releases any given player will care about. This means you end up with increasingly long times between releases, or you put out releases that only a fraction of your playerbase will actually play (and deal with the negative emotions you create in them as they see a release only to realize it's got nothing for them). Neither option is really very compatible with the way Patreon is structured.

On top of all this, the game will only get increasingly difficult to create as time goes on as the choices start stacking up and creating a combinatorial explosion. The dev seems to be somewhat aware of this, I think, based on the price increases for later versions. If the dev is also not willing to compromise on his effective hourly rate... it's just a perfect storm for this never getting finished.

I'd suggest the dev focus on much more linear games in the future. That's the only way I see the time/effort/funding aspects aligning in a way they would find acceptable. Given the quality of the work, I'm sure all but the few most choice-obsessed folks would find it an acceptable tradeoff - especially if the games actually get finished that way.
I will say, for all of the Dev’s flaws, the gaps between updates on Primal Instinct weren’t especially long. There were plenty of choices and branching paths, and it released with some regularity. So that’s less of a potential issue here I think.
 

RustyCooter

Active Member
Apr 5, 2020
500
1,218
You don't have to be a psychic to See where this game is headed. Everyone knows it. It is a shame though the dev has talent. If this dev was to get one good game completed. I'm sure he would get a ton of followers and supporters. This is usually the way it works in this business(hobby)
 

desmosome

Conversation Conqueror
Sep 5, 2018
6,102
14,092
I've been a follower of Silk since the early days of PI, and I can understand his frustrations when it comes to development. Why work on a product that you put your hours into if you're not going to get something out of it? The love of development? Are you also the kind of person that wants a football or baseball player to play their respective sports without compensation? You want artists to just give their art away? Working on these visual novels takes time, effort, and heck of a lot of heart to not only put the game out there for you whiners to pick apart, but to also stay motivated, especially when there's little incentive to do so. Try thinking about this in terms of you working a job and not being compensated at a level you should be and then rethink your whining a bit.

I almost cried when Primal Instinct was abandoned because the story was one of my favorites at the time and the quality of both the renders and the interesting story were ahead of its time, but without the backers there wasn't much point to continuing.

Heir Apparent is less than an hour long and some of you are saying that the story is "basic incest". Uhm... That's like saying that Game of Thrones is about The Stark Family enjoying some time at their castle. Give it some time and pledge if you're even the least bit interested in the tiny peek into Heir Apparent. I know I am.
Why would anybody want to support a project that hinges on a game of chicken? The entire game is doomed unless enough people other than yourself supports it. "If it gets close to reaching a goal, maybe I'll support it." "If it sees rapid growth, maybe I'll join it." These are the considerations that would be going through everyone's mind. What a great way to hamstring your own growth.

Patreon is supposed to be a place where people can support a content creator just because they like what they are doing so they can continue to do the thing they do. It's not actually designed to be some kind of monetary transaction exchanging money for a product. Silk is treating the site as some kind of business deal, so the potential backers should also treat it as a monetary investment, rather than a support for a creator. It's a horrible investment that is bound to go nowhere.

I don't know why my other post got deleted, but let me reiterate. If Silk wants proper compensation before he works, then he should look for other platforms that support this business model. Kickstarter is the obvious model that he is trying to emulate on patreon for some reason. At least kickstarter campaigns won't charge you if the project fails to meet the quota. If you pull this stunt on patreon, the people that support the game are in a perpetual state of uncertainty, so why would anyone in their right mind support this?

The other option is to just work on the game at your leisure and release it on steam or something. He seems like he is all about fair compensation, so let the free market speak for the quality of the work.

The fact that he is up front about his intentions on patreon is not lost on me. I don't think it's necessarily scummy behavior. I think it's retarded behavior that destroys any chance of building a proper fan base though.
 

doktorn69

Newbie
Apr 8, 2021
19
256
Do you not think Silk put in a lot of hours to become as talented as he is right now? You think being able to render that well just comes natural to people? Do you think he doesn't touch up scenes post-build on renders? I understand what you're saying because I felt the same way about Silk's attitude, but after getting the same treatment with my writing, it's entirely understandable to feel the way he does.
Of course, he's very good at rendering but you can't go into a scene and demand money from the get-go, you need to put yourself out there and be consistent and work hard for it. What Silk is doing is holding the game hostage and he's losing out on it himself because he's scaring away people that might've pledged.
 

drooopy

Active Member
Feb 27, 2021
504
1,254
in a way i understand this dev's thought process, you got a guy like oppai man who just started & he's already making 4,400 per month, he sees himself in that category, it's not as if the quality of this game ain't above average.
 

AL.d

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
1,575
5,224
I've been a follower of Silk since the early days of PI, and I can understand his frustrations when it comes to development. Why work on a product that you put your hours into if you're not going to get something out of it? The love of development? Are you also the kind of person that wants a football or baseball player to play their respective sports without compensation? You want artists to just give their art away? Working on these visual novels takes time, effort, and heck of a lot of heart to not only put the game out there for you whiners to pick apart, but to also stay motivated, especially when there's little incentive to do so. Try thinking about this in terms of you working a job and not being compensated at a level you should be and then rethink your whining a bit.

I almost cried when Primal Instinct was abandoned because the story was one of my favorites at the time and the quality of both the renders and the interesting story were ahead of its time, but without the backers there wasn't much point to continuing.

Heir Apparent is less than an hour long and some of you are saying that the story is "basic incest". Uhm... That's like saying that Game of Thrones is about The Stark Family enjoying some time at their castle. Give it some time and pledge if you're even the least bit interested in the tiny peek into Heir Apparent. I know I am.
So in your opinion, the other creators who don't give development ultimatums and just let their support grow organically, are just giving their art away? That's a very curious perspective, considering some of them are pulling massive dough. Which is the opposite of giving it away.

And another question. If this dev is that much confident about the quality of their work and at the same time so hellbent on receiving immediate compensation for it and avoid the risk of working for nothing, why not finish it and put it up for sale on steam? A finished product with a set price, that absolutely none can play without providing said compensation.
 

Deckard81

Member
Oct 23, 2017
247
693
Which my post was. My point in that deleted post was that he's obviously talented as shown in both Primal Instinct and this game and for this game to succeed (which I'd like it to do) he needs to get out of his own way with the money grabbing and complete a good game, then the money will come

As was said in Field Of Dreams "If you build it they will come" the dev of this game at the moment is more like "Pay me enough to build it"

Just to be entirely on topic: The renders are fantastic, the story could go either way but I enjoyed PI's story decently so I'd give it a good chance.
 

yihman1

Knockout Master
May 11, 2017
3,109
10,825
in a way i understand this dev's thought process, you got a guy like oppai man who just started & he's already making 4,400 per month, he sees himself in that category, it's not as if the quality of this game ain't above average.
Oppai Man, or some other new developer coming on the scene making a first release getting good support never discourages any developer ever. That's "New Money". Nobody really hates on "New Money". They worked for it, and got lucky with that support good on them. If anything it encourages other devs to get in the game, and step their game up. At worst, a dev will think, "It would be nice if I had a little luck like that." Because they are working at it, and making something, and earning it. They delivered something big recently. Good on them. A lot of people look at a guy like that as inspiration.

The one that can torture a dev mentally is a guy like Icstor the "Old Money". Those guys come out, work on it long enough to build a big support base, then just stop delivering, but still, get paid. Icstor is #9 on support. That is the top 10 in a sea of tens of thousands of starving artists. What has he done in 2021? NOTHING! What did he do in 2020? NOTHING! What did he do in 2019? NOTHING! Still, the guy is #9 raking in more money than 99.99% of devs.

It makes most devs face a very hard mathematical reality. "You will be very lucky if you ever get 1/10 of the support of a man who hasn't put an honest days work in for several years." That is a hard pill to swallow. If a dev can get 6-700 supporters they are in great shape doing better than 99% of the guys out there, and Icstor has got 10 times that. You are going to have to work hard as fuck hoping to just get a tiny fraction of his support.

About 99% of people who play our games are pirates that never give any of us a single penny. It is that thin 1% that finance the thing that keeps the whole adult game market from crashing down and grinding to a halt. Most devs never make any serious money.

Devs of adult games are not working at big game studios like devs of normal video games. We don't have a Nintendo, or Rock Star check that will be in the mail guaranteed if the game flops or sells 10 million copies. We don't have an hourly pay rate. We don't get medical, or dental, or a 401k. We can't even really put this work on a resume... We are not working in a team of 30, 40, 50 or more people with specialists in key areas doing hard parts we don't know how to do. We do it alone or in a very small team 2 or maybe 3 people if that usually just 1 guy. We have to build and master a larger skill set than they do. If we fail in just 1 area we fail period. If the guy you are working with fucks up you will take the blame or vice versa.

The critics will be merciless, and often penniless. One little bug, or grain on a render, or a few typos, or minor plothole, any little thing "wrong" with the game, and they come crawling out of the woodworks shitting all over everything. Demanding you make it how they want it without even buying you a cup of coffee. They want it, they want it their way, and want it for free.

The world around us doesn't do a magical time stop for us to develop our games. Every hour you put into your game could be an hour, making money, improving yourself, spending quality time with loved ones, relaxing, enjoying a hobby, or simply catching up on some missed sleep. Nobody puts our bills on pause, and almost all of us need other ways to make a living. When the boys want to go out drinking on Saturday night, but there are some bugs in the game that need to be fixed, and you only got $20 to last you the week... Guess what you are doing on Saturday night? You are not going out to buy a round of beers for your friends. Get back to work on the game it needs to be better.

When it comes to silk&milk and what he did, and what he is doing. Its like our heart there with him, but our head knows better. He is like the kid in the back of the classroom that tells the teacher, "Fuck your homework assignment! I got better shit to do!" Its like... "Dude I agree with you, and you are on point... but don't say that! You are gonna get detention!"
 

Deckard81

Member
Oct 23, 2017
247
693
I've been a follower of Silk since the early days of PI, and I can understand his frustrations when it comes to development. Why work on a product that you put your hours into if you're not going to get something out of it? The love of development? Are you also the kind of person that wants a football or baseball player to play their respective sports without compensation? You want artists to just give their art away? Working on these visual novels takes time, effort, and heck of a lot of heart to not only put the game out there for you whiners to pick apart, but to also stay motivated, especially when there's little incentive to do so. Try thinking about this in terms of you working a job and not being compensated at a level you should be and then rethink your whining a bit.

I almost cried when Primal Instinct was abandoned because the story was one of my favorites at the time and the quality of both the renders and the interesting story were ahead of its time, but without the backers there wasn't much point to continuing.

Heir Apparent is less than an hour long and some of you are saying that the story is "basic incest". Uhm... That's like saying that Game of Thrones is about The Stark Family enjoying some time at their castle. Give it some time and pledge if you're even the least bit interested in the tiny peek into Heir Apparent. I know I am.
All the people at the height of those professions put a lot of work in before they reach that success (if ever). I don't think anyone begrudges the man a healthy living from something he's clearly talented at. If he'd grinned and bared it and finished PI despite the income not being enough he'd have built a loyal base of supporters who would then support him blindly (to a degree) on future products and having earned their trust he'd probably be able to ask for more.

What he should do with Heir Apparent if he's serious about this line of work (and I hope he is) is cut the goal bullshit, create some fair tiers and work at making a great game and finishing it, build that trusting support base. If he can't do that due to rl stuff or because he simply doesn't want to then I wish him well on whatever he does.

I'm not sure if this will also be deemed "off topic" but c'est la vie
 

HansDampf788

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
1,899
6,232
The easiest way for the Dev to maybe achieve what he wants (MONEY) would be going the most popular route with the game and simply make it an incest and harem game to reach the biggest audience.

This Dev never had the problem that his renders weren't good his problem was the setting. The first problem Primal Instinct had was the NTR threat, the second problem was at least for a part of the audience that it had too many LI's for a non-harem game, and the third problem was that the game had LI's in different parts of the world but the MC was stuck in one place.
 

botc76

The Crawling Chaos, Bringer of Strange Joy
Donor
Oct 23, 2016
4,414
13,174
in a way i understand this dev's thought process, you got a guy like oppai man who just started & he's already making 4,400 per month, he sees himself in that category, it's not as if the quality of this game ain't above average.
Lol. The problem is that he DEMANDS the money. He doesn't even ask for it, he doesn't let interests grow, he just demands, "give me x amount of money, or I'll stop working." And that is not how it works.
The people here in defence of him miss one important point, no one here is saying he doesn't DESERVE to get paid for his work adequately, the problem is you can't FORCE people to support you to what you think is an adequate level.
Yes, some devs start out earning a lot of money, and I'll be the first one to admit, that sadly often the amount of money someone gets, is in no way related to the actual quality of writing and art, but that's the way it is. Some people are just really good at giving enough people exactly what they want in a way that makes them want to pay for it.

The easiest way for the Dev to maybe achieve what he wants (MONEY) would be going the most popular route with the game and simply make it an incest and harem game to reach the biggest audience.

This Dev never had the problem that his renders weren't good his problem was the setting. The first problem Primal Instinct had was the NTR threat, the second problem was at least for a part of the audience that it had too many LI's for a non-harem game, and the third problem was that the game had LI's in different parts of the world but the MC was stuck in one place.
The scope in general, there were so many levels of story in that game, a storyline surrounding sister and stepsister, that whole dream/vampire thing in the past, the mystery of the (probably) vampires in the present and how it relates to the past.
And update after update came, and you didn't come any closer to really understanding what was going on there.
Others have also mentioned the many choices, as a fan of Where The Heart Is, I saw first hand, what having many choices will lead to, there's a dedicated team, with a firm hand at their routes and still they flay about with the enormous amount of branching paths. Primal Instinct seemed to have way more important choices (that did not just grant you one point affection or lust or not) than WTHI had in the first few updates, where was this going to lead?
Also, the feeling that you constantly had to make the right decisions to fend off NTR, was of course a worrying sign for all but the NTR fans, as you pointed out yourself.

All in all, there were many understandable reasons why the previous game didn't get the support the dev hoped for and maybe deserved. This one, seeming to have a more generic storyline, might have better chances, but still the money won't just come because he feels he deserves it, and given that he already abandoned a game and already threatens this one with abandonment, who in his right mind would go and risk money on that?
I sure won't.

I have only a small amount of money each month to support creators on patreon, I usually support devs or artists who don't earn thousands of dollars a month, because to them even my small contribution is better than none, and they deserve it.
There are devs who worked on games for many years for only between 100-200 bucks a month of support, and they struggle with justifying the time and effort they pour into their game, and getting so little for it, but they stick to it, because they love what they are doing, the game is their baby, their outlet, their creation.
And many of them are not as talented as silkandmilk, the renders aren't as fantastic, sometimes English isn't their first language, and it shows in the writing, the stories are all over the place etc.., but I still want to support them, because you just see their love for what they are doing and their willingness to continue even with barely any reward, outside the satisfaction of people liking what they are doing, even if they don't pay for it.
For me, that is what is missing with the dev here, I'm not saying he doesn't love what he is doing, but his heart can't be in it that much, because money is definitely his primary motivation, because if he doesn't get it, he will just drop the game.
 

pizbia

Member
Sep 17, 2017
354
1,144
The world around us doesn't do a magical time stop for us to develop our games. Every hour you put into your game could be an hour, making money, improving yourself, spending quality time with loved ones, relaxing, enjoying a hobby, or simply catching up on some missed sleep. Nobody puts our bills on pause, and almost all of us need other ways to make a living. When the boys want to go out drinking on Saturday night, but there are some bugs in the game that need to be fixed, and you only got $20 to last you the week... Guess what you are doing on Saturday night? You are not going out to buy a round of beers for your friends. Get back to work on the game it needs to be better.

When it comes to silk&milk and what he did, and what he is doing. Its like our heart there with him, but our head knows better. He is like the kid in the back of the classroom that tells the teacher, "Fuck your homework assignment! I got better shit to do!" Its like... "Dude I agree with you, and you are on point... but don't say that! You are gonna get detention!"
i get the spirit of this, i also understand him emotionally but like people were saying back with primal instinct, it's not that we don't think he deserves more, it's that his attitude is fucking shit, and while i get the frustration, he really doesn't actually have much of a point in the way he went about all of this at all

like yeah of course it's not fair, of course it's heavily luck-dependent, of course there are shit games and shit devs raking in cash while great stuff goes unappreciated but was this guy born yesterday?

welcome to reality, sometimes you don't get what you deserve, how many people on this forum are working jobs for a boss who's a fucking moron but still rakes in 10x the pay that they do?

how many great TV shows or movies are artistically brilliant and get underfunded or financially flop and die while cancerous shit makes hundreds of millions while basically stealing plotlines from something else?

i do think he deserved much more support than people like ICSTOR especially (who should owe his patrons money if anything, and should probably be caned because he's a thief) but this guy needs a fucking reality check
 

Xumeey

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2017
1,187
2,487
Apparently if he gets the full amount he will work every day for v.02. If he gets half of it he will only work 15days during the month.

"
To clarify, if support is only $300 a month for v.01, I will spend 15 days of that month on the project.
INSUFFICIENT INTEREST IN THE PROJECT WILL RESULT IN IT'S CANCELLATION."


To quote him. Also, he's already warning people of a possible cancellation..
At least he's honest about his intentions some devs don't even tell you about milking you dry.
 
3.80 star(s) 46 Votes