Unless people enjoy the oblivious MC^^ But yes, I'd give the same advice to people who are getting frustrated with the MC.
About the rest of the story. You might or might not be right on this, I won't spoil : )
- Thread starter N_taii
- Start date
About the rest of the story. You might or might not be right on this, I won't spoil : )
- Jul 28, 2017
- 418
- 396
Same, right now they are just assumptions based on what i've played so far, credible ones but still just assumptions.
So patriotic that he decided to pursue a career in politics in a neighboring country : )
- Nov 3, 2017
- 9,233
- 7,749
That's some quality NTR right there, bravo. Not often I pull an all-nighter on any game, let alone one with little actual gameplay.
Some annoying tropes here like the prostitution, drugs magically turning people evil and, worst of all, the "I'll train you to be good for him, it's totally innocent and selfless on my part" that I don't think anyone would would really go for. More conventional seduction would have worked better for me, I think. And I don't mind the antagonists carrying out all kinds of elaborate schemes, but I always feel cheated in this type type of game when the MC is "framed" as being unfaithful to the LI. Edwyr claims women want a big-dicked masculine protector and to be degraded, and I think that's a common NTR theme. So I'd rather have let him prove it without too much foul play, even if it takes a while.
I like the submissiveness/feminization aspect to the LI's corruption arc, that's really nice when combined with sexist macho corruptors.
Some annoying tropes here like the prostitution, drugs magically turning people evil and, worst of all, the "I'll train you to be good for him, it's totally innocent and selfless on my part" that I don't think anyone would would really go for. More conventional seduction would have worked better for me, I think. And I don't mind the antagonists carrying out all kinds of elaborate schemes, but I always feel cheated in this type type of game when the MC is "framed" as being unfaithful to the LI. Edwyr claims women want a big-dicked masculine protector and to be degraded, and I think that's a common NTR theme. So I'd rather have let him prove it without too much foul play, even if it takes a while.
I like the submissiveness/feminization aspect to the LI's corruption arc, that's really nice when combined with sexist macho corruptors.
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- Jul 28, 2017
- 418
- 396
I'm not a oblivious protagonist kinda of guy to the point where i stopped playing it for a while but i changed my mindset to other aspects of the game, specially the protagonist bond that starts to form with him and a certain godess because everyone starts to doubt his word, that is by far the most attractive part for me because it starts to make sense after a while.
yeah, I agree. I also really don't like corruption that is executed through magical drugs. Takes the whole tension of the corruption progress away imo. But in HC2 up to now there are no magical drugs involved in the corruption process.
I'm actually okay with the "I'll train you to be good for him, it's totally innocent and selfless on my part"-part as long as it makes sense in combination with the target. With Celis, who is very naive it does work I think, but it would not make sense if the LI is more experienced or not that naive.
Do you have an example of how such a progress would look like to you?
- Nov 3, 2017
- 9,233
- 7,749
Well, iirc by that point it's already established that Celis has a hard time keeping his hands off her, she sure seems willing to put up with a lot of unsolicited contact from him when she could draw a line by beating him to the ground. And of course, there's that lovely masturbation scene that shows she's already subconsciously sexually interested in him specifically. So I'd totally have bought it if the groping and smooth-talking had continued and escalated even without any pretense of "training". After all, he's already established as someone who knows exactly how to treat naive virgin types who probably also wanted to save themselves for "someone special".
- Feb 16, 2020
- 58
- 87
This game can sometimes feel long winded with certain cutscenes, but I love how the developer took time to explore the town and its characters as young MC before everything happens. Makes everything more meaningful. The sound effects are what make this game so hot for me, but I will say there's oblivious, and then there's "I don't have even the most common form of common sense". This game is amazing, though!
- May 23, 2018
- 74
- 133
To be fair that isn't even a trope n_tail created, the NTRPG games were exactly the same, not that I think it's a bad thing, ironically I think n-tail got around it really well in the X-mas special he did with the main characters glasses breaking so he couldn't see his hand in front of his face.
Thanks!
About the whole training thing, I get what you mean. This is why I tried to create conditions that would make this more believable.
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I'm still fumbling around when it comes to writing the story. I'm still learning how to be more concise with the scenarios I come up with. The fact that English isn't my mother tongue doesn't make this any easier, as I sometimes lack the proper words that could make a dialogue be half its length and convey the same message.^^
Also, if we assume the MC sees and hears the same as the player, then I completely agrees that this doesn't make any sense. But the game was made with the idea that the player sees and hears things a lot clearer than the MC^^
Thanks for the kind message!
Yep, the original concept was imagined by Hanataka and turned into the NTRPG games most of us know. Quite frankly, if he had kept making games himself, the Henteria Chronicles series might not have been created. It was kinda born out of my own frustration for not seeing NTRPG3^^
- May 23, 2018
- 74
- 133
There is still the demo but it was never translated which is a shame. Also didn't know English isn't you first language, honestly I wouldn't have known had you not mentioned it, well done.
Due to the fact, that my last request seemed to be welcome, i would like to humbly request an ending where the BBEG is defeated, but the women are so sex-addicted, that they are still fucking around even when in an relationship with the love interest. with or without the knowlege/consent of their partner.
in any case i will enjoy playing the rest of the game and thank you so much for listening to the playerbase!
- Jul 28, 2017
- 418
- 396
Sincerelly the way the story is going i wouldn't be surprised if the protagonist has an even bigger monster down there than the villains and they get addicted to him instead.
And N_taii, i would advice on going in more depth even further with the relation between the protagonist and the shadow lady and maybe even add a few sidequests related to the protagonist and the shadow lady itself because its by far one of the most interesting and mistery inducing plot of the game, at least for me, but i wouldn't be surprised if you were already working on something like that seeing as you more or less confirmed that there will be a evil mode revenge plot more or less.
- Sep 3, 2016
- 2,020
- 4,050
N_taii
Some your work summary from my POV:
- decent graphics, animated ones
- honest, kind dev (you)
- timely added new content
- quite bug-free
- good story, good mapping, good humor
- well deserved >2.7k/mo
And more.
But, what directions to grow more? To be a better game developer? To make better NTR games?
Well, there are already two WORST things you can do:
- (more) mini-games
- fighting mechanics
I mean it! Minigames are ok if ALL are completely optional and 5y-old difficult. Like lockpicking in TES: Skyrim.
Both fights and mini-games are fucking boring, frustrating, out of the mood, etc. ALL of them should be optional. And are a waste of your resources (exception: some nice minigames, riddles as an option).
Fighting and minigames will ruin the game. BUT! I know what you MAY think. You want some gameplay element, huh?. This is actually progress. But not that way. You can't outsource true game-play making to minigames nor the combat.
You need (IMHO) to build gameplay into the game. Make the gameplay part of the game. At least look at Alicesoft games. Gameplay elements may be:
- impregnation race (impregnation meters)
- virgin hunting
- voyeur mechanic
- dating/relationship growing/winning the girl
- protecting the girl from other males (including parametrization - 1st partner, last partner, the best sex with, etc)
- non-ero concurrent task(s) - example: player builds a house/castle. Other male(s) do(es) it too. the winner will bed the girl. The game will be about building a castle - on a non-ero layer - while in fact it is all about winning the girl.
You may be 1st to add contradicted goals as ntr mechanic. Example: MC and his GF want to build a castle. If MC wins, he will marry her etc. (if he fails, another male will bang the girl) BUT! If GF becomes too famous (during castle building mechanic), the king will take her as his concubine (which should be revealed later in the game). So MC/player needs to find a method, to both build the castle and save her from the king (or not, then NTR will happen).
Another gameplay mechanic, VERY NTR AND VERY AROUSING, is another (proven) contradicted mechanic:
- make a voyeur mechanic (with mentioned parameters like amount of sex partners etc)
- make a non-ero mechanic (like the mentioned example of castle building)
- make a limited resource consumed by both above activities!
So, if MC checks if GF cheats, he is worse in his main job! If he does his job, he may miss some clues. This solution allows the player to rise the game's difficulty by himself. OFC you could make this solution spicier with plausible deniability mechanics -example: MC did his job (he did not go to check his GF), he was late to check on GF. There are some clues she had h-things with another male (like her hair disordered, her leaving another male's room at 2 AM etc). GF denies everything. Always.
The second part of my feedback:
Your games are quite similar when considering antagonists. Typical NTR is about an evil man who takes MC's GF (and another girl's too). He (or two of them) fuck all the girls and MC is pathetic. Yup, this is the golden standard.
But, I think this is shallow NTR. You know why? Because the player still has control in his mind. The world is black-white and the situation is clear. The player loses with an overpowering enemy. But how about losing with a common person?
I think that it is time to make good NTR with a "grayscale". This is how I see it:
- make MC quite normal, but in love with GF (so he has reasons to forgive her).
- make GF quite normal, but in love with MC (so she has a reason not to stay with other males).
- make other males quite normal (not (that) evil), but make them wanting sex with GF. For example, another male could really care for GF and/or act with respect and empathy for her. She could have (and tell ) about her pleasant and intimate acts with other males. This could be more NTR-ish for MC/player than r4pe/coercion/blackmail/tricking.
- make other males also (potential) friends of MC
Grayscale NTR is based on being unable to blame GF! Examples:
- she had sex b4 she met MC
- she had sex b4 MC and GF were "official"
- the king/feudal lord ordered her, and nobody can refuse the king (sex under necessity)
- she was in special condition like someone used an aphrodisiac
- she gave herself for the cure for MC or another important person (sex under necessity)
- she thought MC is dead
- they had a "pause" in their relationship
- MC and GF lost the fight with some males, GF had some GOR. This solution always results in uncertain paternity at the end of the game (phase 3, epilogue).
and eventually low-blaming situations:
- she was seduced by an ultra-skilled guy and now she regrets
- she had sex while drunk and now she regrets
- she had a crisis situation, a "friend" "helped" her and now she regrets
So, the game could have two or three phases:
1. Sex/virginity hunting. Dating mechanic, voyeur mechanic. GF is not yet in love with MC. But 1st phase is a story about how MC and GF became a couple and how they fell love in with each-other. OFC gf could have some sex with other males, including ONS. You will have to choose if you depict sex or leave it implied. I vote for all implied in 1st phase! So you make NTR mystery btw, by because some things may surface in later phases.
2. MC and GF are in love. Maybe something forces them not to be (officially) a couple?. Anyway, other males want to impregnate GF, so the race starts. This part is more explicit and adds impregnation mechanics. You could add a lot of options why GF fucked with other males look at greyscale non-blaming or low-blaming situations above).
3. Epilogue - OFC GF gave birth. Question is - who is the father?
For the endings, make sure you cover such situations:
- MC rises someone's child, he either knows or not
- GF has 1st sex with someone else, then she was faithful and gave birth to MC's child. For MC, the GF was his 1st woman. But for she, he wasn't 1st,
- GF cheated for some reason, still, she ended with MC. She is unaware of who the father is.
PS.
A good solution is to make GF 1y older and MC below age of allowed sex (so no sex for him) and GF above this age (she can have sex). So whole 1st phase will be protecting GF from other males w/o ability to have a sex. So all characters are 18+, but some (MC) can't have sex until something happens.
Some your work summary from my POV:
- decent graphics, animated ones
- honest, kind dev (you)
- timely added new content
- quite bug-free
- good story, good mapping, good humor
- well deserved >2.7k/mo
And more.
But, what directions to grow more? To be a better game developer? To make better NTR games?
Well, there are already two WORST things you can do:
- (more) mini-games
- fighting mechanics
I mean it! Minigames are ok if ALL are completely optional and 5y-old difficult. Like lockpicking in TES: Skyrim.
Both fights and mini-games are fucking boring, frustrating, out of the mood, etc. ALL of them should be optional. And are a waste of your resources (exception: some nice minigames, riddles as an option).
Fighting and minigames will ruin the game. BUT! I know what you MAY think. You want some gameplay element, huh?. This is actually progress. But not that way. You can't outsource true game-play making to minigames nor the combat.
You need (IMHO) to build gameplay into the game. Make the gameplay part of the game. At least look at Alicesoft games. Gameplay elements may be:
- impregnation race (impregnation meters)
- virgin hunting
- voyeur mechanic
- dating/relationship growing/winning the girl
- protecting the girl from other males (including parametrization - 1st partner, last partner, the best sex with, etc)
- non-ero concurrent task(s) - example: player builds a house/castle. Other male(s) do(es) it too. the winner will bed the girl. The game will be about building a castle - on a non-ero layer - while in fact it is all about winning the girl.
You may be 1st to add contradicted goals as ntr mechanic. Example: MC and his GF want to build a castle. If MC wins, he will marry her etc. (if he fails, another male will bang the girl) BUT! If GF becomes too famous (during castle building mechanic), the king will take her as his concubine (which should be revealed later in the game). So MC/player needs to find a method, to both build the castle and save her from the king (or not, then NTR will happen).
Another gameplay mechanic, VERY NTR AND VERY AROUSING, is another (proven) contradicted mechanic:
- make a voyeur mechanic (with mentioned parameters like amount of sex partners etc)
- make a non-ero mechanic (like the mentioned example of castle building)
- make a limited resource consumed by both above activities!
So, if MC checks if GF cheats, he is worse in his main job! If he does his job, he may miss some clues. This solution allows the player to rise the game's difficulty by himself. OFC you could make this solution spicier with plausible deniability mechanics -example: MC did his job (he did not go to check his GF), he was late to check on GF. There are some clues she had h-things with another male (like her hair disordered, her leaving another male's room at 2 AM etc). GF denies everything. Always.
The second part of my feedback:
Your games are quite similar when considering antagonists. Typical NTR is about an evil man who takes MC's GF (and another girl's too). He (or two of them) fuck all the girls and MC is pathetic. Yup, this is the golden standard.
But, I think this is shallow NTR. You know why? Because the player still has control in his mind. The world is black-white and the situation is clear. The player loses with an overpowering enemy. But how about losing with a common person?
I think that it is time to make good NTR with a "grayscale". This is how I see it:
- make MC quite normal, but in love with GF (so he has reasons to forgive her).
- make GF quite normal, but in love with MC (so she has a reason not to stay with other males).
- make other males quite normal (not (that) evil), but make them wanting sex with GF. For example, another male could really care for GF and/or act with respect and empathy for her. She could have (and tell ) about her pleasant and intimate acts with other males. This could be more NTR-ish for MC/player than r4pe/coercion/blackmail/tricking.
- make other males also (potential) friends of MC
Grayscale NTR is based on being unable to blame GF! Examples:
- she had sex b4 she met MC
- she had sex b4 MC and GF were "official"
- the king/feudal lord ordered her, and nobody can refuse the king (sex under necessity)
- she was in special condition like someone used an aphrodisiac
- she gave herself for the cure for MC or another important person (sex under necessity)
- she thought MC is dead
- they had a "pause" in their relationship
- MC and GF lost the fight with some males, GF had some GOR. This solution always results in uncertain paternity at the end of the game (phase 3, epilogue).
and eventually low-blaming situations:
- she was seduced by an ultra-skilled guy and now she regrets
- she had sex while drunk and now she regrets
- she had a crisis situation, a "friend" "helped" her and now she regrets
So, the game could have two or three phases:
1. Sex/virginity hunting. Dating mechanic, voyeur mechanic. GF is not yet in love with MC. But 1st phase is a story about how MC and GF became a couple and how they fell love in with each-other. OFC gf could have some sex with other males, including ONS. You will have to choose if you depict sex or leave it implied. I vote for all implied in 1st phase! So you make NTR mystery btw, by because some things may surface in later phases.
2. MC and GF are in love. Maybe something forces them not to be (officially) a couple?. Anyway, other males want to impregnate GF, so the race starts. This part is more explicit and adds impregnation mechanics. You could add a lot of options why GF fucked with other males look at greyscale non-blaming or low-blaming situations above).
3. Epilogue - OFC GF gave birth. Question is - who is the father?
For the endings, make sure you cover such situations:
- MC rises someone's child, he either knows or not
- GF has 1st sex with someone else, then she was faithful and gave birth to MC's child. For MC, the GF was his 1st woman. But for she, he wasn't 1st,
- GF cheated for some reason, still, she ended with MC. She is unaware of who the father is.
PS.
A good solution is to make GF 1y older and MC below age of allowed sex (so no sex for him) and GF above this age (she can have sex). So whole 1st phase will be protecting GF from other males w/o ability to have a sex. So all characters are 18+, but some (MC) can't have sex until something happens.
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I do not see it that sharp, but actually I am also absolutely no fan of it... I think I kinda like the little mini-games you put in your game N_Taii (while at the same time I do not really need them - that's not what makes your games special) but I do agree and can only plea to you N_Taii: Keep your hands off fighting and mini-games, especially because you are planning to establish a fight system in HC3. I like that your games are more like a novel and not a normal RPG game. Mini-games and fighting would feel like more of a grind and not a novel anymore. I never liked that about rpg games. You get interrupted all the time. And it does not help for story progression, character development, etc.... It's just a waste of time. And in the end, if I want to play a good RPG I just go and play Skayrim or Red Dead Redemption or one of thousands of games that are about fights and mini-games and actually are really good in it, but I definitely do not go here, to f95zone. Here I want to experience something different and not just another computer game....
My personal opinion/recommendation: Rather invest your time in free-roaming events, H-scenes and character development then in mini-games or even a fighting system.
In the end I think that this is the formula for success, while mini-games and fights are only appealing to a very small group of players. Just go through all the reviews and critiques here - nobody says there are too less mini-games or that the game actually needs a fighting system (well, maybe one or two people do, but hey..). Critics rather go in the direction of character development, h-scenes, more content, less story, I mean you know that all N_Taii...
There is not that much of a need for that IMO. Actually I think if N_taii starts the next game just with the features added over time in HC2, like freeroaming events, and integrates them from the beginning and just takes the critics that where pointed out here into the next game, that would totally be enough to be a hell of a game.
Sure little gameplay elements could be added here and there, but I would rather advise N_Taii to instead of that rather invest into really nice parallex mapping and sprite enhancement. That would make the game more unique and picturesque imo.
---------------------------------
So my take home message would be: Great improvements while developing HC2. Stick to those and develop them further. Take the critiques from HC2 and work with those.
To summarize (this is just for HC3 because all of this critics are not applyable to HC2 anymore), you yourself put it perfectly some weeks ago:
- Be more concise and to the point with the story, while preserving its depth and interest
- Less extra-characters. having too many of them might explain why the players are less involved with the main characters
- more H content from the get-go
- Having well-defined personalities for each of the main and side characters
- make more use of freeroaming events. Everbody seems to love it and it's a good way to implent more h content and character development from the get-go
- invest in parallex mapping and sprite enhancement
- maybe implement more kinks (I personally do not need that, but it would make sense out of a developers POV)
- this one goes along with 4. and its one of my main dislikes with HC2 from a personal POV - make the characters resist more, especially when they are not naive. Every girl in HC2 immediatley falls for the corruption. A little more of resistance would make advances in the corruption much more rewarding. And it would fit much better to some characters (ice queens, arrogant LIs,...)
- add a gallery from the start
- and finally: make more small steps in the corruption process. In both HC1 and HC2 I actually always felt that besides the corruption beeing really nice could have been more detailed. Instead of implementing more short scenes of groping and harassement and so on the progress would jump from one major event to the next (HJ, BJ, first sex, raw sex). In both games I would have loved to see more scenes inbetween. Maybe you could make use of the freeroaming events in that sense.
- keep your fingers off minigames and fighting systems!
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- Sep 3, 2016
- 2,020
- 4,050
sfoMMA85
Some explanations for my previous post:
1. Kings/caste building etc. is of only an example! The king is good archetype (may be any other powerful/overpowering person, like an emperor, local lord, crime boss). Castle building was an example of non-ero gamelay mechanic. Just one of many, I don't suggest THIS one.
2. " You need (IMHO) to build gameplay into the game " ok, I phrased badly, it should be:
"If you want to add a gameplay (mechanic), stay away from minigames and fighting mechanic and build gampley into the (roots of) the game."
I also agree - less side characters. Maybe even shorter games with less locations and less characters?
About corruption process - I suggest avoiding (this time) a total corruption. Do NOT make GF a cock-hungry whore-cumdump. Just make her loving GF who... "made some mistakes"
Some explanations for my previous post:
1. Kings/caste building etc. is of only an example! The king is good archetype (may be any other powerful/overpowering person, like an emperor, local lord, crime boss). Castle building was an example of non-ero gamelay mechanic. Just one of many, I don't suggest THIS one.
2. " You need (IMHO) to build gameplay into the game " ok, I phrased badly, it should be:
"If you want to add a gameplay (mechanic), stay away from minigames and fighting mechanic and build gampley into the (roots of) the game."
I also agree - less side characters. Maybe even shorter games with less locations and less characters?
About corruption process - I suggest avoiding (this time) a total corruption. Do NOT make GF a cock-hungry whore-cumdump. Just make her loving GF who... "made some mistakes"
CobraPL sfoMMA85
Thank you both for the suggestions. However, I want to point out the fact that
1) Fighting mechanics will be completely and entirely optional. There will be an option to get overpowered gear from the get-go as well as turning random encounters off. With both those options, players who aren't interested in fighting will be able to completely bypass that aspect of the game. Moreover, I want to hire someone to take care of it, which means I won't be dedicating much time to it myself. I was planning to give the MC some kind of military background, so it goes well with his backstory.
2) The card mini-game already exists as a ready-to-use plugin, so it doesn't require much time to implement. It won't be added besides other mini-games, but will intead replace them. Once again, it will remain optional, and won't be forced upon players. Besides, the FF8 Triple Triad card game is a game I used to play a lot as a kid, both in-game and with family members irl, so I'd love to have it in game, and I hope I'm not the only one^^
I don't wish to impose gameplay mechanics by tying them with the story progression. All new gameplay mechanics will remain exterior to the story, and thus optional.
Thank you both for your suggestion, they were all really helpful, even though I did find some of them slightly too "cold and logical" (no offense intended). I like to create the story as I go, with a rough idea of what's going to happen. Once it becomes too schematic, it's not as fun to develop for me, so I don't dwell too much into the whole "grayscale lowblaming NTR with voyeur and impregnation mechanics", and just write and develop things as I go, hoping to produce a good story : ) Still, I will keep in mind what you said, CobraPL, and see how I can implement those I like into the story. Making the NTR as a result of unavoidable consequences could be fun, although I think it's already what's happening with most of the characters of HC2, except maybe for Celis. sfoMMA85 your suggestions list is almost the exact same as my bucket list for HC3, except maybe the last point. But I hope your worries were at least slightly eased with my message above : )
PS: Wouldn't a counter be kind of random? I mean, since a lot of things are implied, I would have to add numbers randomly for "number of times fucked", "number of creampies", depending on the progress of the story. I don't mind doing that, but I'm wondering if that's really what you had in mind.
Thanks!
Thank you both for the suggestions. However, I want to point out the fact that
1) Fighting mechanics will be completely and entirely optional. There will be an option to get overpowered gear from the get-go as well as turning random encounters off. With both those options, players who aren't interested in fighting will be able to completely bypass that aspect of the game. Moreover, I want to hire someone to take care of it, which means I won't be dedicating much time to it myself. I was planning to give the MC some kind of military background, so it goes well with his backstory.
2) The card mini-game already exists as a ready-to-use plugin, so it doesn't require much time to implement. It won't be added besides other mini-games, but will intead replace them. Once again, it will remain optional, and won't be forced upon players. Besides, the FF8 Triple Triad card game is a game I used to play a lot as a kid, both in-game and with family members irl, so I'd love to have it in game, and I hope I'm not the only one^^
I don't wish to impose gameplay mechanics by tying them with the story progression. All new gameplay mechanics will remain exterior to the story, and thus optional.
Thank you both for your suggestion, they were all really helpful, even though I did find some of them slightly too "cold and logical" (no offense intended). I like to create the story as I go, with a rough idea of what's going to happen. Once it becomes too schematic, it's not as fun to develop for me, so I don't dwell too much into the whole "grayscale lowblaming NTR with voyeur and impregnation mechanics", and just write and develop things as I go, hoping to produce a good story : ) Still, I will keep in mind what you said, CobraPL, and see how I can implement those I like into the story. Making the NTR as a result of unavoidable consequences could be fun, although I think it's already what's happening with most of the characters of HC2, except maybe for Celis. sfoMMA85 your suggestions list is almost the exact same as my bucket list for HC3, except maybe the last point. But I hope your worries were at least slightly eased with my message above : )
PS: Wouldn't a counter be kind of random? I mean, since a lot of things are implied, I would have to add numbers randomly for "number of times fucked", "number of creampies", depending on the progress of the story. I don't mind doing that, but I'm wondering if that's really what you had in mind.
Thanks!
- Oct 9, 2017
- 44
- 53
Well dang, just reached end of update 5. I hope in the future games there will be multiple routes. My fetishes enjoyed the journey up until ''the line'' was crossed, lol
But sadly, my mind instantly loses attention once that happens
But sadly, my mind instantly loses attention once that happens