Perfect S
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Perfect S
Newbie
- Oct 20, 2019
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Perhaps you could explain your point for me? I admit it's quite possible that I missed some context since I didn't read any further page of comments than the 451st page (this one) as reading 450 pages of forum posts feels like a waste of time.
I will note that my post was mostly intended to support someone else who seemed to have a similar point of view to myself to provide some weight to that side of the argument since I think it has value. I also believe people may consider that point of view more seriously if it's not alone in a sea of dissent and as I view it as more optimistic viewpoint on others and the world I think it's a valuable thing when more people at least consider that point of view since I think it makes the world a better place to be positive.
I didn't directly respond to anyone (let alone you) so it arguably may be impossible to miss a point that I didn't refer to; but I can see how my reference of "these people" could make you think I intended to directly refer to a point that you made that Kantanshi was referring to. If you felt that I was referring to you directly then I apologize for the miscommunication. My reference to "these people" is more about people who think that a dev is required to put out more content when you support them and if they don't and explain it with things like 'my life got in the way and I couldn't work on the game this month,' especially when they say it for a several of months, they are a con man and intentionally dishonest and trying to take your money.
If that's not your point of view then I missed your point of view (mostly because I wasn't looking for it or intending to respond to it) but I do apologize for making you feel like I misunderstood and misrepresented your argument. Please consider my post a response to the sentiment above.
While we are on the subject (just in case you want to argue further) let me clarify my point of view:
I believe that patreon money or any other financial support provided from itch.io or subscribe star is money where you choose to support an artist from the sense of 'I like what you are doing and hope you continue to produce more stuff like this' not a 'you are now under my employ and will produce content on a regular basis'. I feel that everyone should contribute as long as you want, but no one should act like they deserve an more content because they contributed in some way. If after a while anyone feels like they don't want to support them anymore.... well.... they shouldn't do it anymore.
As to the point of feeling like they have been conned; I think it's really rude and insulting to the dev to assume that all the time the put into the game and build a community was all a 'con' just because content isn't coming out faster of the game has been stalled. I believe we are all different people and other people have issues that I don't and I have issues that others don't. For instance I might get burned out or lose motivation faster than another person (e.g. when I've worked 25 hours in a week my feeling of burned out and worked may be the same as someone else who has worked 40 hours in a week). I don't think anyone's brain feels the exact same even when subjected to the same situation. I apply belief and observation about life to how devs act and assume that even if they don't come back it probably wasn't intentional and may be something due to a personal life or mental health thing such as losing interest (but not to the point of deciding they are done, just to the point of making it difficult to sit down and work on the project) They may also get to a point where they feel like it's too much of a step to come back due to all the expectations and negative comments that they don't. I think it's unhealthy to judge them like that and question if you or anyone else would want to be judged if you got depressed or otherwise felt unable to work on a project (I know I wouldn't).
One last technical point on the matter: unless you have a contractual agreement where both the dev and you understood and agreed to produce a specific amount of content for your money I'd argue it can't really be a "con" because there was no agreement in place. Without any agreement the Dev can have a perfectly valid, honest point of view that the money is being provided in the context of what I outlined above (the 'I like what you have done hope you make more') and your point of view that they are being dishonest has no legal standing (if anything it would probably be closer to you being liable for defamation).
All that said, we are fortunately all entitled to our own points of view and until you have a contract in place it's just a point of view and no one is empirically wrong or right.
aris666
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Karnewarrior
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>Use word wrong
>Get called out on it
>"fuckin' nerd stop telling me I'm using this word wrong"
>Get called out on it
>"fuckin' nerd stop telling me I'm using this word wrong"
There is no need for contractual obligation for an action to qualify as scam. For example : I ask someone for money saying that my children are sick and I cant pay for their meds, when in fact Im childless and just wanted some extra buck for vodka today. I used someone's good will and trust against them to profit financially, I scamed them. People know this and are either coping or can't extrapolate common situations to Patreon.
Most people give money to creators as a show of appreciation, sure, but also with understanding and trust that as long as they are supported they will continue their work. I can be said hat it' plainly obv that harem guild is not being worked on therefore trust is being taken adv of , Komi is still profiting from this = scam
I would say that at this point deception is missing from this equation, after so many years without updates peps should be donating him with understaing that he most likely will not produce anything for this game. Maybe they like what the game is now and want to pay in lieu of buying the game idk, idc. If they want to burn their money who rly cares? Just dont go around with that scam is only when contract is broken shit. its retarded.
Most people give money to creators as a show of appreciation, sure, but also with understanding and trust that as long as they are supported they will continue their work. I can be said hat it' plainly obv that harem guild is not being worked on therefore trust is being taken adv of , Komi is still profiting from this = scam
I would say that at this point deception is missing from this equation, after so many years without updates peps should be donating him with understaing that he most likely will not produce anything for this game. Maybe they like what the game is now and want to pay in lieu of buying the game idk, idc. If they want to burn their money who rly cares? Just dont go around with that scam is only when contract is broken shit. its retarded.
Nailed it. What people forget is that yes, Investment word, which some trying to obsess over, can be used in case of Patreon. If you are expecting any form of return, that includes delivery of a video game, you are "investing" even if you are donating.
Add there that Komi broke multiple promises of release "this year update", it adds up to simple fact that Komi is a scammer.
It depends on how you use words, from the established definition (what you find in dictionaries) of "scam" you were not scammed, I think it would be accurate to say you were deceived (there may be a better word for it you could find in a thesaurus) and had your generosity taken advantage of. Scammed is about being deceived and defrauded; defrauded is about being illegally deceived (all that feels a bit circular to me but that's how the dictionary people decided to define it).
If, on the other hand, you are using scammed in a more colloquial sense where you have redefined it to something like "deceived into a monetary loss" then you can be right. However, by that logic you could say you define an apple as something having the properties of a banana and could therefore be correct if you refer to what we call a banana as an apple.
I believe language is just about communication and you can define words how you want. The only complication is that you then have to define how you are using that word for people who use the established definition rather than the definition that you use. If you decide not to clarify how you are defining things you will end up talking past each other.
Maybe you, should actually read beyond the dictionary and read into actual legal practice. While law and its practice is varies widely between different countries, the main point for most of the time is as simple "a benefit of a conman at expense of their victim".
In best case scenario, we should actually quote the legal documents instead of dictionaries. But again, because you started with such a highly regarded legal source, lets continue with dictionaries.
Fascinating how you accuse us that we need to read a dictionary meanwhile if i actually read dictionary there is way more definitions of de/fraud.
"To deprive of right, either by procuring something by deception or artifice, or by appropriating something wrongfully through breach of trust, or by withholding from another by indirection or device that which he has a right to claim or obtain; cheat; cozen: followed by of before the thing taken."
Notice how in my definition found on wordnik, it doesn't mention anything about illegality. It says wrongfully, doesn't mean immediately actually illegal. Have you did the most basic monicker of research? Or have you on purpose choose the definition which fit your narrative?
This is why, a lot of cons and scams, are operating in the technically legal area. I feel like a broken record at this point. That what seperate them from a simple, robber or thief. Thief takes from you without your consent. Scammer takes from you with one. And many layers of "well akshually it is technically legal" is the tactics of the scammer.
For example selling shitty overpriced trash, for 1000s% of markup. From surface glance wouldn't say it is fraud or scam in any way, because how is this exchange of goods and money is any different from you buying goods from the store? But if you look deeper it is clearly a scam, which often can continue to operate because they operate inside legal limits, it is a scam touting the law exactly at the tipping edge.
Hell a lot of modern ponzi schemes, drops the charade of the "deception" and declare straightforward that they are indeed a form of a ponzi scheme. So those ponzi schemes are not defrauding people because they don't make statements that are not true?
The scam calling, selling you overpriced reinstalls of free antiviruses, is another one, good one is not technically lying, they just taking exuberant amount of money to install a free software to your PC as a fee of service. Preying on gullible and uneducated.
And yes, perpetually funding some kind of product you are developing through donations, can be qualified as a scam. In my city we had a monorail development firm promising, and promising but operating on "willing just donations". It took 15+ years to finnaly caught them, when their luck finally run out, and they tried to pump and dump and run. But again, through all those 15 years they always reiterated that it is "just donations" no promises, we just making more green version of monorail.
So please drop this stupid "ILLEGAL" line.
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>Use word correctly
>Got called out about some invented bs
>Proceed to present an actual argument
>Dog piled by bunch of dickriders with no clue what they are talking about
It's the same thing over and over again. Dev makes promising game. Earns loads of patreon money. Loses ambition and updates take longer and longer. Still keeps stringing people along with breadcrumbs and excuses to keep cash flow.
If you want devs to stop doing this you have to pull your support because there's no incentive to actually finish a game when you can profit off of it doing the bare minimum for years.
The funny part is where the white knights come out defending the dev asking where my game is or pointing to week old discord messages that all say "big things soon" and that I should be patient since the devs aunts cousins neighbors goldfish died and they need time to mourn, or their hard drive was corrupted for the 3rd time losing a months worth of work.
If you want devs to stop doing this you have to pull your support because there's no incentive to actually finish a game when you can profit off of it doing the bare minimum for years.
The funny part is where the white knights come out defending the dev asking where my game is or pointing to week old discord messages that all say "big things soon" and that I should be patient since the devs aunts cousins neighbors goldfish died and they need time to mourn, or their hard drive was corrupted for the 3rd time losing a months worth of work.
Quackille
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- Jul 28, 2022
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Probably get the PC version of GTA 6 before the Ch. 1.
GarbageCat
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- Jun 17, 2020
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They're gonna announce Dragon Age 4 on the 11th and it's release date is going to be sooner than this game.
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kazeiheikaya
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It's true though, I can speak from somewhat experience on this. When I used to provide an online service for money, at first I was a very diligent, ambitious and hardworking person. As the months started to go by and people were more comfortable with paying me prior to the results, I started losing my drive. It's almost like a developed ego in a weird way. No idea why it happens but subconsciously I guess I didnt feel like I needed to rush as much or I could take a break, etc. I was alot younger during these days admittedly, but all things considered if people woulda cut me off immediately I woulda went into a panic and realized how much of a mistake I was making.
The whole reason for me saying this is because I feel like its almost exactly what happens. The money starts flowing in, the people start trusting you, and your just like "eh I want to do it but... x, y, z" alot of devs probably end up in that boat, they just get lazy and complacent. There is also of course the dark side where dev's just get way too hung up on perfectionism and want to make everything way more perfect than it ever could be and start stressing over every minor detail and thing which turns into a huge mental burden for them.
On the Abandoned/Patreon Discussion...
All in all 2~ years without a substantial update? Definitely screams abandoned. Patreon isn't buymeacoffee, its a subscription service. People are subscribing to patreon for exclusivity to content and updates. In Patreons own website disclaimer of usage " If creators offer paid membership or sell digital products, you can pay them directly for exclusive content, knowing you're supporting them to create more of the work you love. " People arent just blindly supporting people financially they do have a level of expectation from their support. I feel like people forget who their fans are and dont realize that they arent just throwing money into the void because they have the means to do so.
This was a nice AVN, it had really likeable characters, I was very interested in the story, but when your supporting a product and the product just randomly halts its production, it will absolutely feel like a scam to the consumers and I dont blame them tbh. Its been 5 years since this post was made, there is maybe 10 hours of content in that 5 years. I think people are justified in their response. Not trying to be too harsh but in 5 years time theres been lone-devs that make entire games from the ground up with complex mechanics, combat, questing, leveling, that are completed. I'm not saying HHG should be a finished product, but Act 1, maybe even Act 2 should have been a possibility by this point.
Hopefully Dev actually comes back and delivers, who knows but I also feel like the white knighting is a bit silly.
Also I always see hard-drive failure as a thing that hangs not only devs, but content creators and the like alot and I just dunno what they do their systems. Same SSD/SSHD for 4 years, still going strong, what in gods name happens to them lol. Do people just manhandle their PCs or something?
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