Ren'Py Inanna Revenge [Ep.2] [AtemX Games]

[Xill]

I mean you could, but that is pretty lame imo. Especially when the dev notes on this one say you can pick specifically how to approach individual relations (paraphrasing here). No reason a goody character cant want to absolutely wreck the wretch that order him imprisoned and tortured for weeks without jumping through the hoops of being a douchebag to others first. Emotional damage and responses are a human thing.
Plus if nothing else, you could do it just because Inanna says you should and there is plenty of reasons to keep her onside.

Would make sense if she wasn't screaming and crying all the way through. That's very dark, regardless of what she did, and it should affect the MC in one way or another. Unless he is unhinged, which would make sense since he went through all the torture prior to this. But then you could argue why are we even locked out of certain choices because of the lack of points, if he can do something so dark in the first place.

 

[Uzhirian]

Covered doesn't mean it works or isn't lazy... Sex cults have existed many times in the past but just writing it as a brothel for blokes to go to for a quicky to de-stress is just lazy. There's so much in real world history that could be taken from to inspire something worth putting in, this failed.

Maybe the actual tenets are lost after the downfall of that religion? Its not exactly been explored much by the story so far.

 

[Ragnar]

I didn’t have an issue with the "sit down and listen" part, I actually think it suited the compassionate MC well, and the scene overall was really nice in my opinion. However, the rape part felt completely out of place, especially for a compassionate MC. It definitely needs to be gated behind high ruthless points.

I'm not a fan of morality systems to begin with because a good person can do terrible things and a bad person can do good things. Real life morals are not black and white. So not a good idea to keep major choices behind x points imo. If you don't like one option pick another, problem solved.

 

[Uzhirian]

Would make sense if she wasn't screaming and crying all the way through. That's very dark, regardless of what she did, and it should affect the MC in one way or another. Unless he is unhinged, which would make sense since he went through all the torture prior to this. But then you could argue why are we even locked out of certain choices because of the lack of points, if he can do something so dark in the first place.

If you pick the choice to make her suffer, it would be kind of pointless if it wasn't dark and she wasn't that bothered by it. That entire scene is literally the MC out to make her suffer like he did. Extreme sure, but as ordered on the menu.
It does matter what she did, because it drives the rationalisation of doing it back to her. People do awful things to others all the time and they don't need to be unhinged to do it (at least not beyond the moment of doing it, and even then may not regret more than getting caught/countered for it).
The rape was a bit to far for me to pick while going for good karma but if I could have stopped after the zapping part I might have picked it because the public punishment didn't quite tick off the personal satisfaction part of revenge and the good guy sit down it a touch too friendly for first chat.
I mean the princess may have the king force her hand but:
- She readily orders MC imprisoned and abused for her gain
- She tells Lucius not to kill MC but only for reasons of MC being valuable and her being sick of waiting.
- There is zero hesitation/empathy/reluctance shown until she get defeated and starts feeling sorry for herself.
- No effort for her or even a servant to offer any comforts or so much as a "sorry, no choice".
- And same again later in the hall/arena, its all arrogance and "back to the torture" for you. She never demonstrates a single iota of compassion to the MC for what she's done. And that's without mentioning the other duchy wide crimes.
I don't hold it against anyone who did pick the rape option regardless of karma on their run. Its not even rape in game because by then she's a slave, immoral and abusive as it may be.
Edit:I should also point out that her behaviour and lack of empathy is even worse if she actually got put through similar by her father. And the princess doesn't offer any kind of apology or conciliation attempt even after being defeated, only "justifications".

And yes, I would argue that most of the currently gated choices should be open unless there is a specific story reason (like good guy getting a promoted/loyal Sylvia negotiate the good price for the maid slave makes narrative sense to be limited to that situation, where a sub/fearful Sylvia would just know her place and be quiet..

 

[Xill]

It does matter what she did, because it drives the rationalisation of doing it back to her. People do awful things to others all the time and they don't need to be unhinged to do it (at least not beyond the moment of doing it, and even then may not regret more than getting caught/countered for it).

If a morality system is going to be introduced in a game it needs to be consistent, otherwise there's no point in said morality system. There's no reason to have these points if they aren't going to matter when it comes to big choices like these. Something else that would work is that it would make sense if you did a compassion playthrough and when you chose to rape her, the scene was far more mild than it was if you did a ruthless playthrough. That would be a great attention to detail, which wasn't the case here. I'm sorry, I'm not shitting on the game, the game is great, the story is interesting, the renders are beautiful and the animations are smooth. But consistency is required when you add systems that only work best when consistency is present, otherwise what's the point in said systems?

 

[RadicalGuy]

I really don't understand why people are malding over this choice with Regina. If you are playing as good guy - don't pick asshole options. It's not forced nor implied by anyone, except for Inanna (who is godness of revenge, so it's understandable).

As for why this scene is not hidden behind morality system orother variables? I think it's intentional at this point. At the end of the day, we are humans, as sometimes, we are emotional. Sometimes good guys want to inflict pain on those who inflict pain on them. Personally, I actually like that this is the choice you can make even on pure compasionate playthrough and I hope that some other choices will follow the same logic. Any time game introduces morality, it's you are either hero or villain, with nothing in between.
I also do not see what type of variations of this scene could be implemented. Regina is slave now and many people consider this fate worst than death.

 

[Ka1tzer]

I really don't understand why people are malding over this choice with Regina. If you are playing as good guy - don't pick asshole options. It's not forced nor implied by anyone, except for Inanna (who is godness of revenge, so it's understandable).

As for why this scene is not hidden behind morality system orother variables? I think it's intentional at this point. At the end of the day, we are humans, as sometimes, we are emotional. Sometimes good guys want to inflict pain on those who inflict pain on them. Personally, I actually like that this is the choice you can make even on pure compasionate playthrough and I hope that some other choices will follow the same logic. Any time game introduces morality, it's you are either hero or villain, with nothing in between.
I also do not see what type of variations of this scene could be implemented. Regina is slave now and many people consider this fate worst than death.

Nearly everything you asked or mentioned has been already addressed in a wall-of-text post (sry about that, the one starting with "oh boy") posted a little while ago.

The gist of it, to keep things extremely short and summarized is lack of narrative consistency along with lack of nuance in big choices or alternatives to what happens.

No matter what route or the choices, we are forced to deal with extremes.

And as you and other folks have pointed out yourselves, people are often more complex and gray, with bad people sometimes doing good and good people sometimes doing bad. So the lack of a grey "middle of the road" approach to the princess problem is very notorious and creates a massive dissonance with several players - ESPECIALLY the ones playing in "neutral/good" routes that still want revenge/justice/punishment to be enacted.

 

[Ka1tzer]

If you pick the choice to make her suffer, it would be kind of pointless if it wasn't dark and she wasn't that bothered by it. That entire scene is literally the MC out to make her suffer like he did. Extreme sure, but as ordered on the menu.
It does matter what she did, because it drives the rationalisation of doing it back to her. People do awful things to others all the time and they don't need to be unhinged to do it (at least not beyond the moment of doing it, and even then may not regret more than getting caught/countered for it).
The rape was a bit to far for me to pick while going for good karma but if I could have stopped after the zapping part I might have picked it because the public punishment didn't quite tick off the personal satisfaction part of revenge and the good guy sit down it a touch too friendly for first chat.
I mean the princess may have the king force her hand but:
- She readily orders MC imprisoned and abused for her gain
- She tells Lucius not to kill MC but only for reasons of MC being valuable and her being sick of waiting.
- There is zero hesitation/empathy/reluctance shown until she get defeated and starts feeling sorry for herself.
- No effort for her or even a servant to offer any comforts or so much as a "sorry, no choice".
- And same again later in the hall/arena, its all arrogance and "back to the torture" for you. She never demonstrates a single iota of compassion to the MC for what she's done. And that's without mentioning the other duchy wide crimes.
I don't hold it against anyone who did pick the rape option regardless of karma on their run. Its not even rape in game because by then she's a slave, immoral and abusive as it may be.
Edit:I should also point out that her behaviour and lack of empathy is even worse if she actually got put through similar by her father. And the princess doesn't offer any kind of apology or conciliation attempt even after being defeated, only "justifications".

And yes, I would argue that most of the currently gated choices should be open unless there is a specific story reason (like good guy getting a promoted/loyal Sylvia negotiate the good price for the maid slave makes narrative sense to be limited to that situation, where a sub/fearful Sylvia would just know her place and be quiet..

Pertaining the princess, her lack of empathy doubled with the fact that she knows first-hand what it's like to go through what the MC was put through is a main reason so many people want her punished across all play styles. That's not in question.

What's in question is the actions we're allowed to take when approaching the "princess situation" and how they unfold.

As for what you said about Inanna I agree up to a point, but she's not only the goddess of sluts, herpes and chlamydia - she has dominion over other aspects that could be used to honor and strengthen her, like war and combat.

So the city has an arena - a big one - and the game has a combat system right? If only we could do something with that...

 

[Superocco]

So, I just reached the part where you get the tutorial with the management book, and... I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, to be honest I feel incredibly stupid because Sylvia says that it's really simple and I've gone through the tutorial two times, but I still don't get the full grasp of how I should manage this, what I should be paying closer attention to, and overall how the changes you can make at the page on the right affect everything. Can someone please help me understand it a bit better, or at least give me some hints or advice towards how careful should I be while managing the taxes and the other variables? Thanks in advance!

 

[Alandir]

So, I just reached the part where you get the tutorial with the management book, and... I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed, to be honest I feel incredibly stupid because Sylvia says that it's really simple and I've gone through the tutorial two times, but I still don't get the full grasp of how I should manage this, what should I pay closer attention to, and overall how the changes you can make at the page on the right affect everything. Can someone please help me understand it a bit better, or at least give me some hints or advice towards how careful should I be while managing the taxes and the other variables? Thanks in advance!

You want gold to spent, happiness to go up and your pop to grow. So just fiddle around with the taxes and the churches that you make a profit, but don't loose happiness or ideally even gain it.
Then your population grows as long as they have enough food and there are free homes. To build more homes you need materials. So fiddle with the mining so that your food doesn't go down, but that your materials still grow by a fair bit.

 

[Uzhirian]

If a morality system is going to be introduced in a game it needs to be consistent, otherwise there's no point in said morality system. There's no reason to have these points if they aren't going to matter when it comes to big choices like these. Something else that would work is that it would make sense if you did a compassion playthrough and when you chose to rape her, the scene was far more mild than it was if you did a ruthless playthrough. That would be a great attention to detail, which wasn't the case here. I'm sorry, I'm not shitting on the game, the game is great, the story is interesting, the renders are beautiful and the animations are smooth. But consistency is required when you add systems that only work best when consistency is present, otherwise what's the point in said systems?

I think I already covered this in my previous post, but again, there are situations where it's fine for the game to say "ok you have good karma so x can happen but not y". I would hope these are generally minor things or things outside the MCs control. That doesn't mean you cant leave important decisions like this up to the player. I, and I'm sure many others, definitely don't want the game to dictate significant things like this.
Giving player choice and agency over important moments does not make the karma system inconsistent or redundant. And forcing a good karma player down a path of "well you can do anything too bad karma anymore now" is dull and reduces the game to a more binary good/bad run setup. That has been done to death.

 

[RadicalGuy]

Nearly everything you asked or mentioned has been already addressed in a wall-of-text post (sry about that, the one starting with "oh boy") posted a little while ago.

The gist of it, to keep things extremely short and summarized is lack of narrative consistency along with lack of nuance in big choices or alternatives to what happens.

No matter what route or the choices, we are forced to deal with extremes.

And as you and other folks have pointed out yourselves, people are often more complex and gray, with bad people sometimes doing good and good people sometimes doing bad. So the lack of a grey "middle of the road" approach to the princess problem is very notorious and creates a massive dissonance with several players - ESPECIALLY the ones playing in "neutral/good" routes that still want revenge/justice/punishment to be enacted.

I still don't know what alternative routes/punishments do you expect? She was turned into slave - that's her punishment for crimes againts citizens and you, as a player, can either go with "that's enough" and listen to her, or torment and rape her. But that choice and only that choice is important from MC perspective, and he can either let her be, or take revenge. That's it. In this specific scenario, there is no "middle" road. She already lost everthing - power, any respect and (to some extend) her life. What else MC can do? Slap her? Beat her up? Cool I guess, but does it change anything? No.

 

[Juerhullycin]

I still don't know what alternative routes/punishments do you expect? She was turned into slave - that's her punishment for crimes againts citizens and you, as a player, can either go with "that's enough" and listen to her, or torment and rape her. But that choice and only that choice is important from MC perspective, and he can either let her be, or take revenge. That's it. In this specific scenario, there is no "middle" road. She already lost everthing - power, any respect and (to some extend) her life. What else MC can do? Slap her? Beat her up? Cool I guess, but does it change anything? No.

Isn't it absolutely lovely when someone comes into a thread, reads nothing and then asks stupid, condescending, worded questions in an attempt to sound smart while all that has already been answered in exhausting length?

 

[RadicalGuy]

Isn't it absolutely lovely when someone comes into a thread, reads nothing and then asks stupid, condescending, worded questions in an attempt to sound smart while all that has already been answered in exhausting length?

I'm asking those questions because I don't understand his point. It's easy to complain that something is wrong and/or bad. You can write wall of text, but it doesn't mean you can convince other people or you are right. I still can disagree and that's what I do.
There is pretty simple way to solve this whole argument - suggest how this whole plot point should play out. Bacause as I said in my previous post - in what way MC should take revenge, when Regina has nothing? At this moment, anything MC domay be cosider psychotic.

 

[Juerhullycin]

I'm asking those questions because I don't understand his point. It's easy to complain that something is wrong and/or bad. You can write wall of text, but it doesn't mean you can convince other people or you are right. I still can disagree and that's what I do.
There is pretty simple way to solve this whole argument - suggest how this whole plot point should play out. Bacause as I said in my previous post - in what way MC should take revenge, when Regina has nothing? At this moment, anything MC domay be cosider psychotic.

so you did read nothing because, like i said, others have explained how it could play out at length

 

[Ka1tzer]

I still don't know what alternative routes/punishments do you expect? She was turned into slave - that's her punishment for crimes againts citizens and you, as a player, can either go with "that's enough" and listen to her, or torment and rape her. But that choice and only that choice is important from MC perspective, and he can either let her be, or take revenge. That's it. In this specific scenario, there is no "middle" road. She already lost everthing - power, any respect and (to some extend) her life. What else MC can do? Slap her? Beat her up? Cool I guess, but does it change anything? No.

Bruh... did you even read the post I mentioned...? It's all there...

But if you did and thinks that all the context, examples and narrative equates to nothing then I don't know what to tell you.

The only reason it "changes nothing" atm is because of the dual-extreme paths for choices - which is one of the main points in the critic.

As for your point for "it's only important from MC perspective" - no it isn't, but I'll concede that it majorly reflects on him. Which circles back to narrative consistency. Or do you think that "revenge" can only mean torture + rape? Nothing else would do to live up to the idea of "revenge"?

"What else can MC do" - I cited a few examples in the post you didn't read just off the top of my head, and I'm sure many people could come up with many other suitable punishments. Another user mentioned dominating her sexually (which, believe it or not, doesn't automatically translate to sadistic-rape-fest), like edging her until she can't bear it anymore but never giving her release until she begs for it? Or the opposite, giving her so many orgasms she pretty much becomes addicted to them (and it doesn't even require penetration, AKA no rape required).

And the fact that she has a slave seal and is forced to obey commands makes the possibility of punishments be vast. The princess basically values her pride, her purity and her overall image. Which means that humiliation, denigration and perversion would torment her greatly.

In fact, here - straight from the other post, just a copy+paste to make it easy:

"What would be appropriate as punishment for non-psychos then"? I can think of many things, most of them abusing the fact that she has a slave seal. For example: she caused ppl in Cascus to fall into coma so, as punishment, she's not allowed to sit down, nor lie down, nor sleep. If she does, then she'd receive a jolt of pain from the slave seal. MC could/should've also given her a standing order that she is never, under any circumstances allowed to lie to him, then proceed to ask and probe her for any and all info he could regarding her father and Lucius, extract any and all her secrets.

She could be made to eat only once every 2 or 3 days, and only from the slave bowl, and have her walked to the middle of the town square to be fed. Have you watched Game of Thrones? There was an event labeled "the walk of penance" (I think) that Cersei was forced to go through.

And I'm sure there are MANY other ways that revenge could be had without having to abandon any and all semblance of empathy. That didn't have to be turned into torture when the narrative for that chosen playthrough doesn't support it.

All of that could have been in place if some more nuance was implemented. So to answer your question: "Cool I guess, but does it change anything?" Yes it abso-fucking-lutely does. In the current implementation the MC becomes an absolute dogshit irredeemable monster if he "punishes" her - and that's fine, I guess, for a scumbag MC but an absolute no-no for neutral/good ones.

The suggestion would make him a conflicted person that might even cross some very dubious and villainous lines, but that still holds some shreds of humanity. More importantly, it still leaves the door open for both himself AND the princess to redeem themselves with their internal conflicts (external conflicts as well in the case of the princess)

But yeah man... this post of yours really felt like "tell me you didn't read my earlier response without telling me you didn't read my earlier response"

Yikes.

 

[Xythurr]

Bruh... did you even read the post I mentioned...? It's all there...

But if you did and thinks that all the context, examples and narrative equates to nothing then I don't know what to tell you.

The only reason it "changes nothing" atm is because of the dual-extreme paths for choices - which is one of the main points in the critic.

As for your point for "it's only important from MC perspective" - no it isn't, but I'll concede that it majorly reflects on him. Which circles back to narrative consistency. Or do you think that "revenge" can only mean torture + rape? Nothing else would do to live up to the idea of "revenge"?

"What else can MC do" - I cited a few examples in the post you didn't read just off the top of my head, and I'm sure many people could come up with many other suitable punishments. Another user mentioned dominating her sexually (which, believe it or not, doesn't automatically translate to sadistic-rape-fest), like edging her until she can't bear it anymore but never giving her release until she begs for it? Or the opposite, giving her so many orgasms she pretty much becomes addicted to them (and it doesn't even require penetration, AKA no rape required).

And the fact that she has a slave seal and is forced to obey commands makes the possibility of punishments be vast. The princess basically values her pride, her purity and her overall image. Which means that humiliation, denigration and perversion would torment her greatly.

In fact, here - straight from the other post, just a copy+paste to make it easy:

"What would be appropriate as punishment for non-psychos then"? I can think of many things, most of them abusing the fact that she has a slave seal. For example: she caused ppl in Cascus to fall into coma so, as punishment, she's not allowed to sit down, nor lie down, nor sleep. If she does, then she'd receive a jolt of pain from the slave seal. MC could/should've also given her a standing order that she is never, under any circumstances allowed to lie to him, then proceed to ask and probe her for any and all info he could regarding her father and Lucius, extract any and all her secrets.

She could be made to eat only once every 2 or 3 days, and only from the slave bowl, and have her walked to the middle of the town square to be fed. Have you watched Game of Thrones? There was an event labeled "the walk of penance" (I think) that Cersei was forced to go through.

And I'm sure there are MANY other ways that revenge could be had without having to abandon any and all semblance of empathy. That didn't have to be turned into torture when the narrative for that chosen playthrough doesn't support it.

All of that could have been in place if some more nuance was implemented. So to answer your question: "Cool I guess, but does it change anything?" Yes it abso-fucking-lutely does. In the current implementation the MC becomes an absolute dogshit irredeemable monster if he "punishes" her. The suggestion would make him a conflicted person that might even cross some very dubious and villainous lines, but that still holds some shreds of humanity. More importantly, it still leaves the door open for both himself AND the princess to redeem themselves with their internal conflicts (external conflicts as well in the case of the princess)

But yeah man... this post of yours really felt like "tell me you didn't read my earlier response without telling me you didn't read my earlier response"

Yikes.

I really like the game overall but I am finding it disheartening how the dev is going through and upvoting every post that condones or likes how the scene currently plays out whether or not the person he is upvoting even has a logical or coherent argument.
Even if they are parroting the same condescending questions which I believe they are now asking in completely bad faith that many people have already wrote essays answering. They aren't even trying to understand. Still he upvotes them SMH.
Bodes ill for the future IMO and I may decide to save some money depending on the next update or two.

 

[RadicalGuy]

Bruh... did you even read the post I mentioned...? It's all there...

But if you did and thinks that all the context, examples and narrative equates to nothing then I don't know what to tell you.

The only reason it "changes nothing" atm is because of the dual-extreme paths for choices - which is one of the main points in the critic.

As for your point for "it's only important from MC perspective" - no it isn't, but I'll concede that it majorly reflects on him. Which circles back to narrative consistency. Or do you think that "revenge" can only mean torture + rape? Nothing else would do to live up to the idea of "revenge"?

"What else can MC do" - I cited a few examples in the post you didn't read just off the top of my head, and I'm sure many people could come up with many other suitable punishments. Another user mentioned dominating her sexually (which, believe it or not, doesn't automatically translate to sadistic-rape-fest), like edging her until she can't bear it anymore but never giving her release until she begs for it? Or the opposite, giving her so many orgasms she pretty much becomes addicted to them (and it doesn't even require penetration, AKA no rape required).

And the fact that she has a slave seal and is forced to obey commands makes the possibility of punishments be vast. The princess basically values her pride, her purity and her overall image. Which means that humiliation, denigration and perversion would torment her greatly.

In fact, here - straight from the other post, just a copy+paste to make it easy:

"What would be appropriate as punishment for non-psychos then"? I can think of many things, most of them abusing the fact that she has a slave seal. For example: she caused ppl in Cascus to fall into coma so, as punishment, she's not allowed to sit down, nor lie down, nor sleep. If she does, then she'd receive a jolt of pain from the slave seal. MC could/should've also given her a standing order that she is never, under any circumstances allowed to lie to him, then proceed to ask and probe her for any and all info he could regarding her father and Lucius, extract any and all her secrets.

She could be made to eat only once every 2 or 3 days, and only from the slave bowl, and have her walked to the middle of the town square to be fed. Have you watched Game of Thrones? There was an event labeled "the walk of penance" (I think) that Cersei was forced to go through.

And I'm sure there are MANY other ways that revenge could be had without having to abandon any and all semblance of empathy. That didn't have to be turned into torture when the narrative for that chosen playthrough doesn't support it.

All of that could have been in place if some more nuance was implemented. So to answer your question: "Cool I guess, but does it change anything?" Yes it abso-fucking-lutely does. In the current implementation the MC becomes an absolute dogshit irredeemable monster if he "punishes" her. The suggestion would make him a conflicted person that might even cross some very dubious and villainous lines, but that still holds some shreds of humanity. More importantly, it still leaves the door open for both himself AND the princess to redeem themselves with their internal conflicts (external conflicts as well in the case of the princess)

But yeah man... this post of yours really felt like "tell me you didn't read my earlier response without telling me you didn't read my earlier response"

Yikes.

Ah, yes, because "dominating someone sexually" without their consent isn't rape. And most definitely doesn't make MC psychotic considering circumstances. This suggestion you or someone else made. I'm sorry, I may be an idiot, but do you really want me to believe that this isn't to some point psychotic behaviour? You are asking if for me "revenge is torture + rape" but you suggest pretty much the same. Fuck yes, let's order her to stand up the whole time under the threath of pain. That is definatelly make sense and is not a turture . Again, at this point, it's kicking the dying dog.

By here is the thing. Do you want to take revenge in non-psychotic way? Make her work. Let her help people in Cascus, let her work in palace. Here, took my 5 minutes to figure our on how to start revenge point, without being psycho and out of character. You want conflict - order her to work naked and allow for grooping. Later you can add more to this, including what you and other people suggested. But don't come here and say that rape and torture bad, standing still for a few days good.

 

[Xythurr]

Ah, yes, because "dominating someone sexually" without their consent isn't rape. And most definitely doesn't make MC psychotic considering circumstances. This suggestion you or someone else made. I'm sorry, I may be an idiot, but do you really want me to believe that this isn't to some point psychotic behaviour? You are asking if for me "revenge is torture + rape" but you suggest pretty much the same. Fuck yes, let's order her to stand up the whole time under the threath of pain. That is definatelly make sense and is not a turture . Again, at this point, it's kicking the dying dog.

By here is the thing. Do you want to take revenge in non-psychotic way? Make her work. Let her help people in Cascus, let her work in palace. Here, took my 5 minutes to figure our on how to start revenge point, without being psycho and out of character. You want conflict - order her to work naked and allow for grooping. Later you can add more to this, including what you and other people suggested. But don't come here and say that rape and torture bad, standing still for a few days good.

Big difference between putting someone through horror and agony than dominating them through overwhelming pleasure for the purpose of crushing their pride and making them desire the MC.
If you can't understand that then there is no more discussion to be had. You are being deliberately obtuse IMO.
Most people agree she should be punished but yes brutal rape is far worse than making someone stand or miss a meal FFS.

 

[RadicalGuy]

Big difference between putting someone through horror and agony than dominating them through overwhelming pleasure for the purpose of crushing their pride and making them desire the MC.
If you can't understand that then there is no more discussion to be had. You are being deliberately obtuse IMO.
Most people agree she should be punished but yes brutal rape is far worse than making someone stand or miss a meal FFS.

End point is the same - torture is torture and rape is rape. It like saying that woman got wet during rape, so it's not bad and rapist shouldn't be punished. It's still rape.
I agree, there is no point in discussing this further as it's clear that our differences come from different understanding of what out of character behaviour would be in this situation.