VN Ren'Py Intertwined [v0.14.1] [Nyx]

[Dessolos]

It's simple, really. I like Andres much less than I hate Santi, as the latter is an absentee father who I'll never respect because to me, nothing and no one is more important than being with your children. I may drop Andres one day, but accepting Santi? Never happening.

Only reason I don't have this opinion is because Andres ultimatum towards Emily to me is basically just as bad as Santi never being around to me. And honestly it's adds a layer of what if's to me cause for all I know he did want to reconnect sooner but Emily said No because of Andres. So because of that I find it easy to give Santi a 2nd chance not that I will forgive him but a chance to see if he wants to make some kind of effort now.

Yeah Emily is at fault for agreeing to it as well. But it somehow doesn't feel as bad to me maybe not sure why.

 

[byaaahh]

It's simple, really. I like Andres much less than I hate Santi, as the latter is an absentee father who I'll never respect because to me, nothing and no one is more important than being with your children. I may drop Andres one day, but accepting Santi? Never happening.

We're just gonna end up going in circles, Andres is the reason Santi couldn't have been there.

Anything short of legal action, which likely would have left Emily single (because she would be required to communicate with Santi, bye bye Andres), broke (from lawyer fees) and resentful toward Santi for her being in that position.

All of it boils down to one man's ultimatum to Emily that was contingent on freezing Santi out.

 

[MiltonPowers]

 

[Dessolos]

View attachment 5069659

A finger comes out of Milton's Popcorn Dessolos performs a Sneak attack Nose Boop that was a critical success and deals 9999 damage to MiltonPowers nose.

 

[Zorro#34]

We're just gonna end up going in circles

Yes we are, because I believe that Andres's ultimatum is something only Emily had to care about, not Santiago, and something neither of them had to care about after the divorce.

Ultimately, it boils down to this:

For 'your' Santiago, Emily's situation > raising his son.
For 'my' Santiago, raising his son >>>>> Emily's situation, his career if needed, and Gabi if he's already with her.
My formula isn't there, so I'll never accept him.

View attachment 5069659

You're kinda late, I believe we're already closing the show.

 

[MiltonPowers]

A finger comes out of Milton's Popcorn Dessolos performs a Sneak attack Nose Boop that was a critical success and deals 9999 damage to MiltonPowers nose.

 

[byaaahh]

Yes we are, because I believe that Andres's ultimatum is something only Emily had to care about, not Santiago, and something neither of them had to care about after the divorce.

Ultimately, it boils down to this:

For your preferred Santiago, Emily's situation > raising his son.
For my preferred Santiago, raising his son >>>>> Emily's situation, his career if needed, and Gabi if he's already with her.
My formula isn't there, so I'll never accept him.

The issue is the ultimatum is the reason the rift between Emily and Santi was so prevalent, to the point that Santi realised she wanted to keep his baby and her new/old boyfriend would be helping her raise it. It's not about Emily's situation, it was her choice at the behest of her man that caused the issues. I won't fault Santi for reading the bright neon "fuck off" signs that Emily was clearly projecting and him actually doing it. His son would have a mother, a father figure and no messy upbringing because he opted to drag his baby mother through court.

 

[Zorro#34]

I won't fault Santi for reading the bright neon "fuck off" signs that Emily was clearly projecting and him actually doing it.

And I will, I've already mentioned why. Besides, Emily removed those signs later anyway.

His son would have a mother, a father figure and no messy upbringing because he opted to drag his baby mother through court.

In other words, he let others do all the work. Off he goes! Also, what's the court if we take the situation after the divorce? What you're justifying Santi's absence with had already happened by then. Do you still think Santi would fail to gain the MC's sympathy and irreparably damage his relations with Emily?

And now, when other people have done all the hard (very hard) work raising the MC, there's no Andres, the MC knows everything, fixed his relationship with Emily by himself and is doing all the work to find him with Santi still not doing shit, he can reap the benefits and play a good dad? He doesn't deserve it. He did nothing to deserve it. To me, he's worse than Zach, and is only second to Ethan in despicability.

…I think it's time to end this. I'll never convince you, you'll never convince me, and this thread's had enough "Santi good/Santi bad" posts for today.

 

[byaaahh]

In other words, he let others do all the work. Off he goes! Also, what's the court if we take the situation after the divorce? What you're justifying Santi's absence with had already happened by then. Do you still think Santi would fail to gain the MC's sympathy and irreparably damage his relations with Emily?

And now, when other people have done all the hard (very hard) work raising the MC, there's no Andres, the MC knows everything, fixed his relationship with Emily by himself and is doing all the work to find him with Santi still not doing shit, he can reap the benefits and play a good dad? He doesn't deserve it. He did nothing to deserve it. To me, he's worse than Zach, and is only second to Ethan in despicability.

…I think it's time to end this. I'll never convince you, you'll never convince me, and this thread's had enough "Santi good/Santi bad" posts for today.

By your logic, even post-divorce he would still have been an absentee father and thereby unforgivable, so not sure what you're getting at.

As it stood, the reconciliation between Emily and Santi was the factor of the divorce, so Santi wouldn't need to take her to court for custody. Emily left telling the truth about his parentage to Andres, something he ended up never doing. Could Emily have done it? Sure. Should Santi? Absolutely not. It was the place of the two people who raised him to broach that subject, not an outsider coming in proclaiming the people he trusts more than anyone have been lying to him his whole life.

You're right though, we'll never see eye-to-eye.
I see Andres as a jealous, conniving rat who got with a girl as recompense for his crush dating her ex, proceeded to coerce her into not allowing said ex into his own child's life as a far greater evil than a guy who couldn't even talk to the mother of his child due to said coercion.

 

[Zorro#34]

By your logic, even post-divorce he would still have been an absentee father and thereby unforgivable, so not sure what you're getting at.

Nah, post-divorce it was still salvageable, because MC wasn't adult yet, soon to be entering teenage years - a very difficult life stage. Guiding MC through it would redeem Santi in my eyes. He only turned unforgivable to me after MC turned 18 while Santi himself turned out to not have other kids.

Emily left telling the truth about his parentage to Andres, something he ended up never doing. Could Emily have done it? Sure. Should Santi? Absolutely not.

I can agree with you that Santiago shouldn't have done it on his own. But he could've and should've persuaded Emily to do it, now that Andres was out of the picture.

I see Andres as a jealous, conniving rat who got with a girl as recompense for his crush dating her ex, proceeded to coerce her into not allowing said ex into his own child's life as a far greater evil than a guy who couldn't even talk to the mother of his child due to said coercion.

And I see Santiago as an irresponsible fuckboy who pumped and dumped, then became mildly concerned about the result, got satisfied that some other people will do the work for him, and went on to have a life of luxury and pleasure, completely removing the human being most important to him - the MC - from his life.

 

[byaaahh]

Nah, post-divorce it was still salvageable, because MC wasn't adult yet, soon to be entering teenage years - a very difficult life stage. Guiding MC through it would redeem Santi in my eyes. He only turned unforgivable to me after MC turned 18 while Santi himself turned out to not have other kids.

You know what would make his teenage years more difficult than your parents going through a divorce? Finding out that your father isn't your father and your parents have been lying to you all your life, as well as them divorcing.

And I see Santiago as an irresponsible fuckboy who pumped and dumped, then became mildly concerned about the result, got satisfied that some other people will do the work for him, and went on to have a life of luxury and pleasure, completely removing the human being most important to him - the MC - from his life.

That's a weird way to say "He was ghosted by a girl he dated, who happened to get pregnant and he moved on after months of no contact". Once again, a result of an ultimatum set by someone who should've had no say in the matter.

 

[hakuna-matata]

If Santi truly wanted to be a father he'd make it happen. Only deadbeat parents make excuses.

 

[Zorro#34]

You know what would make his teenage years more difficult than your parents going through a divorce? Finding out that your father isn't your father and your parents have been lying to you all your life, as well as them divorcing.

We discussed it already. I firmly believe that solely blaming Andres for it and showering MC with presents and getting him to meet Zo would fix it, because:

He's legit the agent of his son's favorite player. That alone would get him in like flynn.

Hell, bullies like Ethan would stop harassing the MC and follow him around like puppies, seeking his friendship. It might've gone as far as the MC getting a real shot with Erynn back then. Pure speculation though, but not completely ungrounded one.

Once again, a result of an ultimatum set by someone who should've had no say in the matter.

Excuse me? When you're making a deal where you're burdened with someone else's child for 18 years, you totally deserve a say on the matter! Not that Santiago should've given any fucks about it once he learned… But we've already been there, too.

 

[byaaahh]

If Santi truly wanted to be a father he'd make it happen. Only deadbeat parents make excuses.

Well he is making it happen, one steak at a time...

 

[byaaahh]

Excuse me? When you're making a deal where you're burdened with someone else's child for 18 years, you totally deserve a say on the matter! Not that Santiago should've given any fucks about it once he learned… But we've already been there, too.

Are you really trying to argue that Andres was well within his rights to deny the biological father access to his son? If so, put the crack pipe down...

 

[Zorro#34]

Are you really trying to argue that Andres was well within his rights to deny the biological father access to his son? If so, put the crack pipe down...

From law standpoint? I really don't know, as I'm clueless about American law.
Morally? Yes. He was being offered a very bad deal, the worst any man can get, Emily had to offer something really big as compensation.
And, like I said earlier, this demand was very reasonable. He was being tasked with raising the kid for his whole life, and this task would be extremely hard if he was stated to be a fake dad from the get-go. By cutting Santi out, Andres was simplifying things for the family going forward.
But even with his condition agreed on, I still pity Andres. He really shouldn't have gotten involved, and screwed himself up by acting on emotion.

 

[byaaahh]

From law standpoint? I really don't know, as I'm clueless about American law.
Morally? Yes. He was being offered a very bad deal, the worst any man can get, Emily had to offer something really big as compensation.
But even with his condition agreed on, I still pity Andres. He really shouldn't have gotten involved, and screwed himself up by acting on emotion.

He wasn't offered any deal...

He offered Emily marriage in exchange for her cutting Santi out of her life and raising the child as his. That was his offer.
Cutting the biological father out when that was a matter between Emily and Santi is absolutely overstepping, especially as Santi knew nothing about it.

 

[Zorro#34]

He wasn't offered any deal...

He offered Emily marriage in exchange for her cutting Santi out of her life and raising the child as his. That was his offer.
Cutting the biological father out when that was a matter between Emily and Santi is absolutely overstepping, especially as Santi knew nothing about it.

Okay, my mistake. But it doesn't change anything. That Andres himself offered it proves that he's stupid, but it doesn't make him any more wrong in my eyes.
If there was a "matter between Emily and Santi", she wouldn't discuss it with Andres, now would she? Santi's parents removed their son from the equation, at least for a time. Thanks to them, while it wasn't entirely correct, as far as Andres and Emily were aware, Santiago wasn't going to raise the kid, so their deal didn't have to account for him. With no other potential father figures in sight, Andres had every right to offer his deal to the available Emily. And I think it was a good one, better for Emily here and now than Andres himself. She did lose out in a long term perspective, but neither her nor Andres knew the whole picture.

 

[Meiri]

To make this short:

Santi: bad
Andres: Also bad
Mommy Brooke: Yes please

 

[byaaahh]

Okay, my mistake. But it doesn't change anything. That Andres himself offered it proves that he's stupid, but it doesn't make him any more wrong in my eyes.
If there was a "matter between Emily and Santi", she wouldn't discuss it with Andres, now would she? Santi's parents removed their son from the equation, at least for a time. Thanks to them, while it wasn't entirely correct, as far as Andres and Emily were aware, Santiago wasn't going to raise the kid, so their deal didn't have to account for him. With no other potential father figures in sight, Andres had every right to offer his deal to the available Emily. And I think it was a good one, better for Emily here and now than Andres himself. She did lose out in a long term perspective, but neither her nor Andres knew the whole picture.

That sounds like an awful lot of "stupid" on the parts of Emily and Andres.

She refused to talk to the father: stupid
They assumed that Santi wanted nothing to do with the kid, despite his attempts at communicating: stupid
Andres offered marriage in exchange for her not talking to Santi and raising the kid as his: stupid

Yet, I'm supposed to believe Santi is the bad guy in this whole situation...