QSP Jack-o-Nine-Tails [v2.3] [ImperatorAugustusTertius / qwertyu12359]

[drebin]

Well, to be fair, is it really so odd that a garbage-tier slaver with no skills, no reputation, no faction connections, and no starting capital is kind of screwed? Even Jonny - the game's hard mode - gives you faction connections, or he used to anyway. I remember being able to buy an apartment with him.

Living in the slums with no way out and shit prospects being a recipe for failure seems pretty in line with what we're told about Eternal Rome. It makes sense you'd have to resort to every tiny advantage you can get (making money slowly in the arena, pinching every penny) if you wanted even a chance for something greater.

Game's not supposed to be easy man, especially when you deliberately pick the hardest combination of factors imaginable beyond even what the hardest difficulty setting has to offer. That doesn't sound like a bug to me. If you don't want to scrape and struggle and grind just to get your way back up to a good starting position... just start with better standing. You have the options to customize every aspect of your game's difficulty. It being too hard is something you can easily just change for yourself.

You are clearly missing the point. A challenge and an impossible feat is not the same. The game has this start, because in older versions it was something that was actually achievable, just go back a few pages and read my post there.

"Game's not supposed to be easy man." Did we say in a single phrase that it should be? It was a scrape and struggle even before for a few decades, now it's multiplied by like 10, if it's even possible at all.

Saying that "Yeah it should be impossible, because Rome is a ruthless place." while also including the option that is unwinnable, is bad game design. Pointing to exploiting the less balanced aspects like arena as the solution, is even more asanine.

You can be a shit slaver, but it's still part of the game, if you can't accomplish it, then why is the option even there? The main problem right now is that you have no way to improve yourself or your skills. Before you could, because slaves were more willing to do something at some semblence of diligence. Now they don't. Your health also improved over time, now it doesn't.

If you really want to be so true to real life and Rome's lore. Then tell me why an absolutely cowardly woman who has been beaten to nearly an inch of her life multiple times still doesn't do basic fucking excercise. Because she's lazy? She enjoys the beating or what?

The fact that you don't care about a zero stat run is fine, but don't handwave it by "If it's too hard, don't play it." It's not a bug, it's a balancing issue.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

Thanks for all the feedback. Balance tweaks have been happening in parallel, so I'm not sure how much of this analysis is still applicable with the current build. I'll try starting up an F- slums run now and see if I can make it work.

 

[Yukihirou]

So then what's even the point? You're basically saying to exploit the game until you get an almost normal start.

On another hand even if you get that loan, you still live in the slums and have 0 skills to train slaves.

This is even darker than darkest dungeon, you're not even a hero, don't try zero to hero here.
15 decades (game time) to get rich and comfortable is quite fast actually, it was not even game-abusing, you just do "honest" work of selling "cattles" to butcher and "gambling" at the arena. Just like what an average citizen in real life Rome did.

 

[Celerarity]

Saying that "Yeah it should be impossible, because Rome is a ruthless place." while also including the option that is unwinnable, is bad game design. Pointing to exploiting the less balanced aspects like arena as the solution, is even more asanine.

But it's not unwinnable. People have posted how to do it, you've just dismissed it as feeling too exploitative for your tastes.

The fact that you don't care about a zero stat run is fine, but don't handwave it by "If it's too hard, don't play it." It's not a bug, it's a balancing issue.

It's not a balancing issue when you deliberately ignore the game's built in difficulty options and turn up the difficulty even higher than what it recommends. The game doesn't need to be balanced around your desire to turn on every option and then resent how hard you made the game for yourself.

Seriously, you literally removed every possible ability or resource you could find from your character, then came to the game's thread to complain it was too hard. You have the ability to make the game easier. The onus is not on the devs to make the very hardest you can possibly make the game something you enjoy, it's on you to use the in game tools to select a level of difficulty you actually do like. There are so many options you can change to make the game easier if it's too hard for your tastes, and as other people have said, it's not like it's actually impossible to do, even with the very hardest settings turned all the way past what the game recommends.

Thanks for all the feedback. Balance tweaks have been happening in parallel, so I'm not sure how much of this analysis is still applicable with the current build. I'll try starting up an F- slums run now and see if I can make it work.

Sure, check it out and see how it feels. Just don't feel pressured to rebalance your game because one guy is complaining. I for one like that you have the options to ramp up the difficulty really high if you so choose to, and the ability to take that down a notch if that winds up not being your speed.

 

[drebin]

But it's not unwinnable. People have posted how to do it, you've just dismissed it as feeling to exploitative for your tastes.



It's not a balancing issue when you deliberately ignore the game's built in difficulty options and turn up the difficulty even higher than what it recommends. The game doesn't need to be balanced around your desire to turn on every option and then resent how hard you made the game for yourself.

Seriously, you literally removed every possible ability or resource you could find from your character, then came to the game's thread to complain it was too hard. You have the ability to make the game easier. The onus is not on the devs to make the very hardest you can possibly make the game something you enjoy, it's on you to use the in game tools to select a level of difficulty you actually do like. There are so many options you can change to make the game easier if it's too hard for your tastes, and as other people have said, it's not like it's actually impossible to do, even with the very hardest settings turned all the way past what the game recommends.

Let's make something clear here. I probably played this game with my half decade, longer than you did, and I didn't just come into this thread as you want to believe.
Like I said, if you don't care about zero runs that's fine, but don't try to lecture me on it being doable, if you never even tried to play like this.

"The game doesn't need to be balanced around your desire to turn on every option and then resent how hard you made the game for yourself." The game needs to be balanced so the minimum start is barely doable.

"Seriously, you literally removed every possible ability or resource you could find from your character." Are you aware that clothes give you skill increases by any chance? How exactly do you think people did zero stat runs before 2.2?

"But it's not unwinnable. People have posted how to do it, you've just dismissed it." Really now? They actually won it and didn't just throw something out there that they use in normal gameplay? If you don't test zero stats out yourself, how do you even know if it helps?

"as feeling to exploitative for your tastes." Buying a slave then doing arena, lastly butchering her for 15 decades is indeed not as intended, hence an exploit. If you consider that to be how the game was intended, you are very misguided.

Even if you exploit your sparks, try to train a slave with no stats on 2.1, then 2.2 after, get to patrition, then sit on your high horse and preach to me for being entitled.

 

[Yukihirou]

...

1.6 combat easy
1.74 combat easy
1.75 combat easy
2.1 combat still easy
2.2 armor fix, suddenly you cannot win any battle at the Fog any more (safe for young fiend and slum gang) unless post game armor or fiend faming (exploits btw by your definition)

No one voiced any though about the elephant in the room : combat being unforgivable even at full stats and best armor. Yet here you are, game too hard cuz I'm a masochist... like really ?

 

[drebin]

1.6 combat easy
1.74 combat easy
1.75 combat easy
2.1 combat still easy
2.2 armor fix, suddenly you cannot win any battle at the Fog any more (safe for young fiend and slum gang) unless post game armor or fiend faming (exploits btw by your definition)

No one voiced any though about the elephant in the room : combat being unforgivable even at full stats and best armor. Yet here you are, game too hard cuz I'm a masochist... like really ?

First off, in what way do you think the Fog is relevant for minimum runs in any shape or form?
Second: Seriously? You offered grinding arena for 15 decades as a solution, then you bring up Fog hunting that was just as unbalanced before? Why do you think they wanted to change the fog's spark yield?

You know. We gave our feedback on the absolute minimum runs to the people developing it right now, which by the looks of it you never even tried, and for some reason, you two are hell bent on denying that it might actually have some merit. Let them decide.

I never said anything about adding the Fog to your quest for masochism or something, I just wanna give an example of constructive criticism which you cannot take.
You asked for a solution, I gave you one, now you point finger as me. Welp i'll take my leave.
Just remember, the way you play the game is not how it is intended to play as well, I just used your words on you.

Haha. You are so smart, you got me. Feel accomplished for knowing how to play correctly.

 

[StillSlyMarbo]

Got a bug,
Lost a fight was a slave sparring against Amazonian. The game soft locked after the fight end with nothing displayed.

 

[Yukihirou]

First off, in what way do you think the Fog is relevant for minimum runs in any shape or form?
Second: Seriously? You offered grinding arena for 15 decades as a solution, then you bring up Fog hunting that was just as unbalanced before? Why do you think they wanted to change the fog's spark yield?

You know. We gave our feedback on the absolute minimum runs to the people developing it right now, which by the looks of it you never even tried, and for some reason, you two are hell bent on denying that it might actually have some merit. Let them decide.

I never said anything about adding the Fog to your quest for masochism or something, I just wanna give an example of constructive criticism which you cannot take.
You asked for a solution, I gave you one, now you point finger as me. Welp i'll take my leave.
Just remember, the way you play the game is not how it is intended to play as well, I just used your words on you.

 

[Aklackadaka]

*Just for context for everyone else. We're talking zero to hero here. 200 sparks, no faction favor, no skills.*

I've been trying on and off in the past weeks and I have to agree with most of your points. Currently there's just too many things bottlenecking you, and in conjunction they just make it nearly impossible for you to get out of the slums.

You can actually find slaves that you can teach yourself, but that opens its own can of worms. High endurance without a backbone will almost always be willing to learn dancing, but no matter what you do their diligence is almost always -1. You can punish them all you want, even beat them 3 times in a row after they rebel, but they will still not take you seriously.

While we're on the topic of rebeling, it actually makes your life in the slums way worse than ever before. Even if you beat them, you barely gain anything from it, but it still eats up your stamina, which makes you either lose health if you did go to the hip to eat, or outright kills you if you didn't. This basically circles back to your health being limited to D- in the slums with bad food. From what I saw so far it's just not worth it to go to the hip to eat, you don't get enough of a bonus from C strength to make it worth the spark/stamina investment, since they won't do what you want anyway.

Back to the slave. So far, I only managed to rarely force out +1-+2s from normal lessons (not counting when a girl has a favorite activity), which only lasted a day or two, and because they simply aren't willing to try, their skills barely develop. In turn you can't grind your own skills either. I don't know the code, but it either takes way too much exp to get to D- in any of your skills or -1 diligence doesn't even give you skill exp. Even if mood is a bigger factor than before you can't keep them happy in the slums if you start with 200 sparks, especially if you try to punish them. So their mood almost always works against you.

Onto the arena. If you don't opt for buying a new slave for every arena run and you use your own spineless slaves, you might get that win money, but they also gain a level of pride/nature/temperament, which basically nulls any progress you had up to then. Most of my slaves simply refused anything they were willing to do before (at a -1 diligence of course) after they gained that level in pride.

All of this takes a very long time with barely any improvement, while you also need to stay afloat, which is made even harder by the clothing cost increase.
I really don't agree with the men's clothes cost increase. You need at least 2 of them to start out at the bare minimum, which since you can't really buy more locks you out of even trying to train half the slave's skills, and even with this disadvantage you pay 80 spark for them on top of the 40-50 you already spent on your slave. Loans are a no go since you can't repay them, and arena actively ruins your slaves willingness to cooperate.

Spoiling/Awerness is another issue. I get it that the slaver has no talking skills, but still nobody believing you anything you say is a bit much, and once they get a point of spoil, it takes too long to reduce it. While they have that point they refuse everything so it just becomes worse if you can't deal with it fast.

My best option so far was to buy a strong slave with high pride, put her in the freezer and have her fight in the arena, while I fiddle away with my spineless slave on other days. It's way too grindy and contrived.

TLDR:
Someone might be willing to savescum it out, but currently my stance is this, zero to hero without heavy savescumming and exploiting is simply not possible.

You can get better than +1s/+2s if you use tutors. It doesn't really matter since the slaves don't care about your praise at all. Although it causes spoiling, I think you can keep a positive mood if you only use 2 rules and give a gift every day. That's even with dehydrated food instead of fresh food.

I was able to get spoiling to go down fairly quickly by having her sleep on the floor. It takes like 3 days. The only problem with this is mood and health.

Does high pride allow a $20 slave to win 3 arena fights without training? Because otherwise it doesn't seem worth it.

 

[Aklackadaka]

It's purple because she's exhausted. She becomes exhausted if her energy goes red or after she exerts herself with athletics, dance, martial arts, etc. several times (as her endurance increases, she can do more exercise per day).

When she's exhausted, high-impact activities make her lose endurance instead of gaining it. It's both a representation of over-exercise and a balance constraint on raising endurance too fast.

I'm confused about that because I definitely saw a purple star turn green just from walking from the salon to home.

 

[Aklackadaka]

I have some important and simple stuff to say. Uh...

It would be nice if you could win on the absolute hardest settings if you really know what you're doing.
It would not be nice if this would be as difficult as beating Pokemon without ever taking damage.
Jack o Nine is not a realistic simulation of being a Roman slaver. If it ever started being one then the FBI would be knocking on our doors.

 

[StillSlyMarbo]

Got a bug,
Lost a fight was a slave sparring against Amazonian. The game soft locked after the fight end with nothing displayed.

Just a heads up. I've since managed to recreate this bug with the other sparing fights, as well as on different saves and characters.

 

[drebin]

You can get better than +1s/+2s if you use tutors. It doesn't really matter since the slaves don't care about your praise at all. Although it causes spoiling, I think you can keep a positive mood if you only use 2 rules and give a gift every day. That's even with dehydrated food instead of fresh food.

I was able to get spoiling to go down fairly quickly by having her sleep on the floor. It takes like 3 days. The only problem with this is mood and health.

Does high pride allow a $20 slave to win 3 arena fights without training? Because otherwise it doesn't seem worth it.

Using tutors has the downside of not developing your own skills while you train, and is also an extra cost. I tried to steer clear of them for that reason, I try to develop the slavers skills as a priority.

Nevermind, I read it again and realised you meant the gifting every day causes spoiling. I'm not sure if giving gifts without merit is worth the mood bonus you get. Spoiling hits obedience extremely hard.
(Praising shouldn't cause spoiling though. Are you using praise that's equivalent to the merit they have? If you use a higher tier than what they deserve that spoils them. I also think the upper limit of rewards is 2 a day, if you reward them more in a single day that also causes spoiling. 2 rules are also necessary, if you have less on normal difficulty that also causes spoiling.)

You can't really train your gladiator even if you wanted to, so what really matters in this situation is for them to have high stats(Especially endurance) overall and high pride. High pride drives down their price too, it's pretty much the reason why some great slaves only cost 20 sparks. Pride/Temperament both account for morale in battle, so the higher they are the sturdier your slave is. If you can buy a good one, they should win 3 fights, if not more, but she'll be just for your freezer, you couldn't train her. She will develop her gladiator skill through the arena matches though.

 

[Aklackadaka]

Using tutors has the downside of not developing your own skills while you train, and is also an extra cost. I tried to steer clear of them for that reason, I try to develop the slavers skills as a priority.

Nevermind, I read it again and realised you meant the gifting every day causes spoiling. I'm not sure if giving gifts without merit is worth the mood bonus you get. Spoiling hits obedience extremely hard.
(Praising shouldn't cause spoiling though. Are you using praise that's equivalent to the merit they have? If you use a higher tier than what they deserve that spoils them. I also think the upper limit of rewards is 2 a day, if you reward them more in a single day that also causes spoiling. 2 rules are also necessary, if you have less on normal difficulty that also causes spoiling.)

You can't really train your gladiator even if you wanted to, so what really matters in this situation is for them to have high stats(Especially endurance) overall and high pride. High pride drives down their price too, it's pretty much the reason why some great slaves only cost 20 sparks. Pride/Temperament both account for morale in battle, so the higher they are the sturdier your slave is. If you can buy a good one, they should win 3 fights, if not more, but she'll be just for your freezer, you couldn't train her. She will develop her gladiator skill through the arena matches though.

In my own runs I find it completely viable to get the slave's stats to the necessary levels using tutoring. Tutors will also grant positive merit in excess of 2, even up to 5. When I was talking about gifts I was talking about giving a bouquet once per day in response to positive merit. I think that the game has a system that reduces the effect when you give the same gift over and over.

I don't think that training slaves yourself is the way. It's much too difficult to find someone with lower stats than yours, and much too expensive to buy the relevant menswear. My focus is on getting Isabella so that she can do all the training. If you have that online then you can train your skills as slowly as you please.

 

[drebin]

I prefer to train my own first assistants, but if it becomes unviable, I'll settle for Isabella.

 

[Aklackadaka]

I prefer to train my own first assistants, but if it becomes unviable, I'll settle for Isabella.

Training your own assistant would require obedience, wouldn't it? And obedience is by far the biggest obstacle. I don't think there's any room for farming obedience without getting paid for it in this run.

 

[drebin]

I was mostly referring to myself not using Isabella in older versions at all and choosing to train my own assistant between guild contracts.

I would say the biggest obstacle is diligence, it is linked to obedience that's true, but if they didn't do everything on -1 merit, you could get headway in training yourself. Once their taming/awareness/habit would kick in, obedience would get better and better. I actually managed to roll a slave with the Disciplined trait today. She does get +merits regularly, but Disciplined as a trait is kind of like a unicorn, especially since it's hidden in the auction.

 

[Celerarity]

Clearly there's no further discussion to be had here on the subject of difficulty - nothing anyone says is going to convince drebin the game shouldn't be dumbed down for him, because he's made it plain he doesn't want to be convinced or have a civil exchange of ideas.

The good news is he's not in charge of the project, so as long as the devs are working towards a vision they believe in and not just something any of us are pushing them into, I'm sure whatever comes out will be quality.

 

[Arrkhon]

Personally I feel that this mod is falling into the same hole that Hongfire one fell into near the end, the one where devs start believing that difficulty is too low and everything should be made harder, after all they can easily manage the game so everyone else should be as well, right?
It's a frustrating hole that I have seen many things fall into and it appears that there isn't even much point in criticizing it according to the post above mine since you guys are set in your vision already
Cant wait until achieving anything on easy difficulty requires a guide and six decades to sell your first slave without dying