QSP Jack-o-Nine-Tails [v2.3] [ImperatorAugustusTertius / qwertyu12359]

[sddony]

I think the current version system is too complicated, and every action involves too much, like going through a minefield carefully. I hardly ever use high level rewards and penalties. It is inconceivable that a slave who was so depressed that she nearly committed suicide or murdered me would be pampered by letting her bathe in a hot spring. While a game that is too simple can lead to repetition, too much complexity can make the game less fun.

I thought it would also be interesting to make the new slave situation more complicated, with the training and reward-punishment effects simpler and clearer.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

I'm not sure but I think the spoiling may be permanent like metabolism problems are on some slaves.

Never permanent. With only 1 fear and positive mood, it could take from 5 to 10 days to clear 1 spoil, assuming nothing is increasing it. More fear, devotion, despair, starvation or negative mood would speed up clearing spoil.

The fact that when you “pushed it” her spoiling increased means that you were doing something that increased spoiling enough to exceed the nightly reductions. Spa treatments? Too many daily rewards?

Not all rewards increase spoiling: praise and promises do not spoil as long as you do not exceed her merit.

Again, avoiding rewards (or rewarding below her merit) to reduce spoiling is not a strategy I recommend. Yes, it would speed up clearing spoil, but at the expense of other goals. If you ignore her spoiling and just progress her training, including sexual training, the spoiling should eventually take care of itself.

Spoiling even has a benefit to offset the reduction of obedience — it increases her expectation of rewards, which means her merit after completing tasks is boosted. This gives you more options and makes it easier to regularly give larger rewards, which are more effective. Sure, they may extend how long she remains spoiled, but you are progressing faster in other ways.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

I believe you regarding fear but I can't cast high enough yet.

Why do you think you need magic to raise her fear? You realize that the Tremendio spell may also raise despair (as the spellbook description implies)? If you’re okay with that, why not just punish her irrespective of her guilt? You are arbitrarily constraining your choices by waiting for things that aren’t available to you yet. You want her to quickly bend to your will, but you seem unwilling to force her. You have many tools available to you…

 

[qwertyu12359]

I think the current version system is too complicated, and every action involves too much, like going through a minefield carefully. I hardly ever use high level rewards and penalties. It is inconceivable that a slave who was so depressed that she nearly committed suicide or murdered me would be pampered by letting her bathe in a hot spring. While a game that is too simple can lead to repetition, too much complexity can make the game less fun.

I thought it would also be interesting to make the new slave situation more complicated, with the training and reward-punishment effects simpler and clearer.

I don't want to brush off your opinion, but I think your experience as a player is too unique to represent the "average player" for whom we should aim to balance the game difficulty for (which we aren't already; the early game has always been close to a "die and retry" purposefully).

the version I played is called Jack-HF2.2. It is a Chinese translated version, which is basically the version that can be found in China, and there is a version statement at the beginning.

It's obvious to me that just going to the tutorial of a naturally complex game in your non-natural language will mindfuck you. Especially if you come from a version which was apparently made easier on purpose and from which you inherited old habits.

Also, counterintuitively, the more complex a simulation is, arguably the easier it gets. As the number of tools and solutions increase, as well as how more intuitive the game becomes as it more closely mimics an infinitely more complex reality. For example, in the Sims, drinking milk might take 30 minutes because it's an easier read than 20.7 seconds, but in return you then have to calculate everything to translate a normal time schedule into a Sims schedule. Same here, people are literally begging for a simulation of a real time night and day cycle rather than the 5 energy point system... So, if anything, we're aiming to more accurately model real life psychology than simplify or game-ify it.

Besides, you seem to be saying two things at once. One, that you have trouble with the difficulty because you feel like in a minefield with every possible actions you need to take (in other words, that any action you take as a player has unforseeable consequences). Two, that the mood system works in absurd ways that don't mimic real-life psychology enough (and you don't understand why a depressed slave would get happy from being allowed to go to the public baths).

I don't think the example you found for point two is possible to begin with, and what rather happens is that a depressed slave will get simply less depressed if she's offered a reward according to her merit which is basically rest, entertainment and self-care (makes sense to me). If we want it to be *less absurd*, we model that "it's not possible that she gets less depressed from a trip to the sauna as she's already fallen into a spiral of depression to the point of suicidal thoughts" thus adding new variables, thus making the game more complex. So there is a contradiction between what you want in one hand and what you desire in the second hand. That or I didn't exactly understood you and you'll need to be more precise with "what is now" vs. "what should be".

 

[Gremory Rias]

your not the only one I started with 6000 now iam 3200 I Know I am Losing and I don't find a way to win I don't want to sell Slaves I want to have them As way of making money by making Strong one fight and Other Race and maybe a cow but I can't have 3 in the same time Because your own Character also need care I started with aristocrat now his got one lvl down same go for strength so how to do all that in the same time take care of the slaves and money and master with energy that only 4 stars

go to virgin hip in ant kill and buy the thing for 1 spark it keeps your strength high, early game honestly you just have to permanently sell slaves to stay afloat. At some point when you can get like b rank slaves you can auction them off and the biggest ive gotten from it so far is 6K which then lets me train up another slave to the same rank or higher and ill still profit regardless. After you can stay afloat and have some disposable income you can get a fiend pen and start raising fiends to get rid of food cost, rn im paying about 130 sparks per decade in ant hill. Also the biggest help i got was from the wiki which said you can train up an assistant to S+ alchemy and make philtres then basically every slave is trainable if u just get them comfortable enough to drink it

 

[AllMe]

Any Download link for mac OS? The link in the wiki expired alr

 

[sddony]

I don't want to brush off your opinion, but I think your experience as a player is too unique to represent the "average player" for whom we should aim to balance the game difficulty for (which we aren't already; the early game has always been close to a "die and retry" purposefully).


It's obvious to me that just going to the tutorial of a naturally complex game in your non-natural language will mindfuck you. Especially if you come from a version which was apparently made easier on purpose and from which you inherited old habits.

Also, counterintuitively, the more complex a simulation is, arguably the easier it gets. As the number of tools and solutions increase, as well as how more intuitive the game becomes as it more closely mimics an infinitely more complex reality. For example, in the Sims, drinking milk might take 30 minutes because it's an easier read than 20.7 seconds, but in return you then have to calculate everything to translate a normal time schedule into a Sims schedule. Same here, people are literally begging for a simulation of a real time night and day cycle rather than the 5 energy point system... So, if anything, we're aiming to more accurately model real life psychology than simplify or game-ify it.

Besides, you seem to be saying two things at once. One, that you have trouble with the difficulty because you feel like in a minefield with every possible actions you need to take (in other words, that any action you take as a player has unforseeable consequences). Two, that the mood system works in absurd ways that don't mimic real-life psychology enough (and you don't understand why a depressed slave would get happy from being allowed to go to the public baths).

I don't think the example you found for point two is possible to begin with, and what rather happens is that a depressed slave will get simply less depressed if she's offered a reward according to her merit which is basically rest, entertainment and self-care (makes sense to me). If we want it to be *less absurd*, we model that "it's not possible that she gets less depressed from a trip to the sauna as she's already fallen into a spiral of depression to the point of suicidal thoughts" thus adding new variables, thus making the game more complex. So there is a contradiction between what you want in one hand and what you desire in the second hand. That or I didn't exactly understood you and you'll need to be more precise with "what is now" vs. "what should be".

I mean, slaves can be despair and spoiling at the same time in this game, which doesn't seem like it should be there. Fear and despair should be opposed to spoiling and devotion, and it will be confusing if they appear at the same time, and it is unclear what kind of mental state it is.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

early game honestly you just have to permanently sell slaves to stay afloat

If you win arena events and stay in the slums then you do not need to sell any slave ever. It’s not exactly living the high life, but it is survivable. If you started with reputation with outcasts then you can move there and supplement your income further with the barn.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

I mean, slaves can be desperate and pampered at the same time in this game, which doesn't seem like it should be there. Fear and despair should be opposed to pampering and loyalty, and it will be confusing if they appear at the same time, and it is unclear what kind of mental state it is.

The current mental state can be seen in the text at the bottom of the slave’s rules screen. The aura is a collection of motivations (or de-motivations) of various strengths, which are combined with other factors to determine behavior. Such oppositions are taken into account and resolve to an equilibrium state over time.

 

[sddony]

The current mental state can be seen in the text at the bottom of the slave’s rules screen. The aura is a collection of motivations (or de-motivations) of various strengths, which are combined with other factors to determine behavior. Such oppositions are taken into account and resolve to an equilibrium state over time.

A slave feels hopeless and terrified, and I treat her better, she should feel less terrified and hopeless, and not immediately feel spoiled, mixed with emotions like this. . So it should be opposite. I think so.

 

[qwertyu12359]

A slave feels hopeless and terrified, and I treat her better, she should feel less terrified and hopeless, and not immediately feel spoiled, mixed with emotions like this. . So it should be opposite. I think so.

So basically you'd like mood to be easier to improve and spoil to take longer (or have less negative consequences). Right?

In normal mode, the slave won't feel "immediately spoiled" because you treat her better. You might have encountered the specific case, but it's not a rule. In general, it works like you thought it should work: you treat your slave better and she feels less terrified and hopeless. Spoil may arise if you treated her too good.

Now about easy mode, we've been contemplating at making it be good and fun in its own right, but never really had ideas. Maybe we could make it so mood is easier to improve and spoil grows slower. You'd just have to make a playthrough in easy mode and tell us if the problem is still there for you.

 

[sddony]

So basically you'd like mood to be easier to improve and spoil to take longer (or have less negative consequences). Right?

In normal mode, the slave won't feel "immediately spoiled" because you treat her better. You might have encountered the specific case, but it's not a rule. In general, it works like you thought it should work: you treat your slave better and she feels less terrified and hopeless. Spoil may arise if you treated her too good.

Now about easy mode, we've been contemplating at making it be good and fun in its own right, but never really had ideas. Maybe we could make it so mood is easier to improve and spoil grows slower. You'd just have to make a playthrough in easy mode and tell us if the problem is still there for you.

I thought of a good idea, the slave should set a hidden value, the tolerance for the punishment effect to change from fear to despair, and a tolerance for the reward to change into mood and switch to doting. This will resolve panel data conflicts while also increasing the diversity of slave personalities

Fear and a good mood are the driving force for learning and growth, but despair and pampering are not. The focus is on not being desperate and pampering, and each slave randomly tolerates despair and pampering. This also gives more opportunities to use advanced penalties and rewards.

The Chinese version 2.2 I used to play should be regarded as a simple version. Two intimidation spells and two days of threats will be obeyed after a day or two. Appropriate rewards will be enough later, and the data will grow very fast. The growth rate of the master and the slave is the same. . That's why in this version, I directly choose difficult characters to eat shit.

 

[PDP19]

Never permanent. With only 1 fear and positive mood, it could take from 5 to 10 days to clear 1 spoil, assuming nothing is increasing it. More fear, devotion, despair, starvation or negative mood would speed up clearing spoil.

The fact that when you “pushed it” her spoiling increased means that you were doing something that increased spoiling enough to exceed the nightly reductions. Spa treatments? Too many daily rewards?

Not all rewards increase spoiling: praise and promises do not spoil as long as you do not exceed her merit.

Again, avoiding rewards (or rewarding below her merit) to reduce spoiling is not a strategy I recommend. Yes, it would speed up clearing spoil, but at the expense of other goals. If you ignore her spoiling and just progress her training, including sexual training, the spoiling should eventually take care of itself.

Spoiling even has a benefit to offset the reduction of obedience — it increases her expectation of rewards, which means her merit after completing tasks is boosted. This gives you more options and makes it easier to regularly give larger rewards, which are more effective. Sure, they may extend how long she remains spoiled, but you are progressing faster in other ways.

Is this actually true, that you can just ignore spoiling and it'll take care of itself?

For those with particularly high devotion you can just use 'put in place' but Ive only ever done that successfully to one slave. Most of the others just scoff at it. Far as my own experience goes, spoiling interferes with devotion and therefore undesirable, even more so than despair because of how difficult it is to get rid of it.

If you need the slave to have a higher expectation of reward, couldn't you just cast sentatia veratis?

I was always in the impression that the game actively discourages you from rewarding your slave too much per day, so ignoring rewards is actually the objectively correct move to do.

 

[sddony]

So basically you'd like mood to be easier to improve and spoil to take longer (or have less negative consequences). Right?

In normal mode, the slave won't feel "immediately spoiled" because you treat her better. You might have encountered the specific case, but it's not a rule. In general, it works like you thought it should work: you treat your slave better and she feels less terrified and hopeless. Spoil may arise if you treated her too good.

Now about easy mode, we've been contemplating at making it be good and fun in its own right, but never really had ideas. Maybe we could make it so mood is easier to improve and spoil grows slower. You'd just have to make a playthrough in easy mode and tell us if the problem is still there for you.

I just experimented, it's the fourth morning of a new slave. Rewards easily increase spoiling without reducing Despair (rewards are for a 10 outfit, 2 hot springs and 1 park)

Sleeping on the floor, eating junk food, no orgasms and no masturbation.

Of course the rewards are intentional, I'm just experimenting.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

It's easy to increase spoiling, and it doesn't reduce despair

If you reward above merit or give slaves privileges before they are devoted enough, spoil increases rapidly. This discourages giving your slaves the best rewards, food and sleeping conditions from day 1.

Spoiling does not decrease despair directly, but the merit that high spoiling generates can lead to a reduction of despair through mood improvement and certain rewards.

Spoiling isn’t hope for good things to come (the counter to despair which is lack of hope for good things to come), it’s belief that the slave deserves privileges and rewards for even the most lackluster compliance.

One can believe they deserve while disbelieving ever getting.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

Is this actually true, that you can just ignore spoiling and it'll take care of itself?

Provided the spoiling is not excessive, meaning you aren’t rewarding her too many times per day, you have enough
rules set, and you haven’t picked rules that go against the guidance displayed when you enable them.

For those with particularly high devotion you can just use 'put in place' but Ive only ever done that successfully to one slave. Most of the others just scoff at it. Far as my own experience goes, spoiling interferes with devotion and therefore undesirable, even more so than despair because of how difficult it is to get rid of it.

If you need the slave to have a higher expectation of reward, couldn't you just cast sentatia veratis?

I was always in the impression that the game actively discourages you from rewarding your slave too much per day, so ignoring rewards is actually the objectively correct move to do.

Put in place is a threat. Like most threats its efficacy depends on the aura supremacy of the master as well as the slave’s history of punishments from the master. Words without follow-through are just words.

Sententia Veritas is limited to once per day, requires magic skill, can fail on high-nature slaves, and costs sparks.

The game expects you to limit rewards to once or twice a day (as stated in the tutorial lecture). Ignoring merit entirely is usually not optimal. Rewarding merit immediately every time it is earned is usually not optimal.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

A slave feels hopeless and terrified, and I treat her better, she should feel less terrified and hopeless, and not immediately feel spoiled, mixed with emotions like this. . So it should be opposite. I think so.

Have you actually observed what you are describing here? Specifically, the mental state shown at the bottom of the rules screen jumping from terrified or hopeless to spoiled? Don’t read into the aura to infer her current attitude. That is not what the aura is.

 

[ImperatorAugustusTertius]

I thought of a good idea, the slave should set a hidden value, the tolerance for the punishment effect to change from fear to despair, and a tolerance for the reward to change into mood and switch to doting. This will resolve panel data conflicts while also increasing the diversity of slave personalities

What you are proposing here would have ripple effects throughout the entire game design. Everything is currently built around the idea that these aura elements can coexist and that the psychological state and behavior of the slave is a synthesis of these inputs and other factors. What you refer to as panel data “conflicts” is actually the game systems working as designed.

I invite you to read through #static_base (search for ‘hysteric’) to see for yourself.

 

[Gremory Rias]

View attachment 2814536
I just experimented, it's the fourth morning of a new slave. Rewards easily increase spoiling without reducing Despair (rewards are for a 10 outfit, 2 hot springs and 1 park)

Sleeping on the floor, eating junk food, no orgasms and no masturbation.

Of course the rewards are intentional, I'm just experimenting.

Early game i dont typically always reward slaves alot and especially not 2 times a day cuz thats just spoiling incoming, once they get at least 1 devotion or high obedience then i can reward them once per day. Also be very careful on your punishment you do not want despair, i usually stick with shaming unless specific circumstance calls for something else

 

[the_sexiton]

Ok I got it figured out. So I'm sure there was a way but considering how deep into training I was I just couldn't turn her around no matter what I did. I tried beatings, shaming, rape, and it always found away to either break her or start adding even more spoiling when I all I did was punish her. I'm not sure what the deal was but I decided to start over with her from a save I made before I started training her.

I didn't realise until I was told that washing a slave is considered a reward or it can contibute to spoiling. This time I let her sleep on the floor and I gave her a sundress to keep her attitude in check. I focused on building witchcraft and alchemy and I didn't give her any rewards. I simply brought her to elven laid every day and that was enough to keep her in check. Every once in a while her attitude would drop too low and I would use level 1 and 2 bondage to correct her. This ate through her negative thorns of rejection and destroyed the spoiling that she was purchased with. By day 15 she had 3 obedience and all of her stats were in order with a D- rating. After pushing my common stats up I began sex training and then I started rewarding her using all the points she earned but if she hit 5 points before all of her energy was out then I would keep training and spend them at the end of the day. I got her to B+ in 60 days. I spent 1,625 sparks building her and negotiated about 4000 sparks for her sale. So I made about 2375 sparks and I'm going to build a gladiator next so I don't have to worry about spending money to keep my energy up and I'll be able to keep up with slaves that have high energy. phew, it really was easy once I started it the way it was supposed to go but if you build them for 15 days and run into a brick wall regarding character building, you might as well start over because you did something wrong. I think it took me about 4 hours real time to train her from start to finish.