VN Ren'Py Karlsson's Gambit [v0.8.2B Final] [Grym Gudinna Games]

[kinkyshin]

There's this way too common trope where writers (film, novels, video games, etc) have characters speak vaguely about things the audience can't know about yet - but the characters themselves presumably understand perfectly.
It's supposed to be cool and mysterious, but really it's just annoying. Especially if you do it more than once.
This game does that a lot.
This release does it waaaaaay too much.

There's also something I think of as "the J.J.Abrams rule" which I believe has been true for every series J.J.Abrams has been a part of that contained these sort of mysterious conversations. At least it was true for several of his projects. There's plenty of other cases that could be used as the example: The supposed "Plan" the cylons had in the 2004 Battlestar Gofuckyourself reboot for example.
The rule says that if the writer is deliberately vague - no matter how loudly they proclaim otherwise - they don't have a fucking clue what the mystery is and will likely botch it at the end when they're forced to finally come up with *something* to fit the hints they dropped.
Corollary to that rule is that the fans will almost always agree on a much better solution than what becomes canon, and the writers explicitly won't use that solution because the fans came up with it instead of them.

Love this game.
Hate this trope.

I hate everything you said.

 

[Sharpshooter890]

I do not agree or disagree with this, but can you provide some examples, even if they are from earlier stuff?

Arya killing the Night King on GoT season 8. She had nothing to do with that story, everyone expected Jon to do it, because it made sense. All of his story lead to that moment, and dumb and dumber took that away from the fans because it was too 'obvious' and they really wanted to ryan jonson us.

'Somehow, Palpatine returned'.. Nuff said. Fuck jar jar abrams. He ruined Lost, he ruined Star Trek, he ruined Star Wars.

 

[L7Bear]

I do not agree or disagree with this, but can you provide some examples, even if they are from earlier stuff?

The conversation between Yvette and Astrid had at least two examples:

1) Something they know about, but Veronica doesn't, and which is not specified in any way to even give players a hint.

2) Astrid's wish, which she's sure Yvette will agree to, but won't tell her what it is until after Yvette agrees... and which isn't disclosed to players - at least not as far as I've played. (However, since it is not specified, it could even be referring to their scuba diving in the next scene.)

 

[L7Bear]

Arya killing the Night King on GoT season 8. She had nothing to do with that story, everyone expected Jon to do it, because it made sense. All of his story lead to that moment, and dumb and dumber took that away from the fans because it was too 'obvious' and they really wanted to ryan jonson us.

'Somehow, Palpatine returned'.. Nuff said. Fuck jar jar abrams. He ruined Lost, he ruined Star Trek, he ruined Star Wars.

I think they meant from this game, but also true.
Lost was such a great series... until it wasn't.

 

[L7Bear]

I hate everything you said.

GTK.
You've blocked anyone (or at least me) from seeing your profile &/or messaging, but feel free to start an "F95 conversation" with me if you would like to discuss this further.



ETA. Wait... Did you even hate the part where I said, "Love this game. Hate this trope." at the end?

 

[MilesEdgeworth]

The conversation between Yvette and Astrid had at least two examples:
View attachment 4439886
1) Something they know about, but Veronica doesn't, and which is not specified in any way to even give players a hint.
View attachment 4439888
2) Astrid's wish, which she's sure Yvette will agree to, but won't tell her what it is until after Yvette agrees... and which isn't disclosed to players - at least not as far as I've played. (However, since it is not specified, it could even be referring to their scuba diving in the next scene.)

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Arya killing the Night King on GoT season 8. She had nothing to do with that story, everyone expected Jon to do it, because it made sense. All of his story lead to that moment, and dumb and dumber took that away from the fans because it was too 'obvious' and they really wanted to ryan jonson us.

'Somehow, Palpatine returned'.. Nuff said. Fuck jar jar abrams. He ruined Lost, he ruined Star Trek, he ruined Star Wars.

The Arya shit was def bullshit.

I'll give you the first two, but star wars being ruined is all on Rian fucking Johnson who flipped protagonists and killed off the main villain for the trilogy in the middle of the fucking trilogy for shock value.

 

[Sharpshooter890]

Returning to a previous conversation, I'm cautiously undecided about the game Anais makes. Maybe it's the lack of information on my part (and she stated it much clearer somewhere else), but it's hard to be excited when vague comparisons to Baldur's Gate or Mass Effect are thrown. If it means there's a lot of replay value due to different choices you can make (like in KG), then you can easily just say that. If it's the space opera feel and aestetics, again, just say so.

Vague statements usually mean that the author has weak grasp on what he/she tries to accomplish.

 

[L7Bear]

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Is that what they were talking about? But they also mentioned the revolution in that conversation like it was something else entirely. I'll take your word on it.
ETA. That definitely begs the question why it was initially hidden from the player.

I should also add the whole pink diamond (that looks like a pyramid rather than any sort of diamond shape) McGuffin is a case where something seems to come out of nowhere, but will be inexplicably important to the plot sometime in the future.
Likewise, the entire conversation with Cole is written so vaguely that it's unclear if they're talking about things the player already knows (but might have forgotten) or talking about things the player doesn't know yet, and skips time to amplify the player's confusion about what is going on. I'll admit some of that might be necessary because of the wide variety of paths and player choices - AGAIN, I LOVE THIS GAME, THAT IS WHY I AM PLAYING - but this seems

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if not completely just fisting the player with a "Remember every detail OR ELSE."

It's a beautiful game with wonderful characters and a wide variety of really interesting options.
I love this game. It has a special place in my heart & my hard drive.
That's why it annoys me when it is deliberately vague and intentionally (especially if unnecessarily) confusing.

 

[MilesEdgeworth]

Returning to a previous conversation, I'm cautiously undecided about the game Anais makes. Maybe it's the lack of information on my part (and she stated it much clearer somewhere else), but it's hard to be excited when vague comparisons to Baldur's Gate or Mass Effect are thrown. If it means there's a lot of replay value due to different choices you can make (like in KG), then you can easily just say that. If it's the space opera feel and aestetics, again, just say so.

Vague statements usually mean that the author has weak grasp on what he/she tries to accomplish.

I'll withhold judgment until I see the game because sight unseen, its hard to judge. Hell on paper, this game wouldn't be all that appealing to me just going by the synopsis

 

[kinkyshin]

There's this way too common trope where writers (film, novels, video games, etc) have characters speak vaguely about things the audience can't know about yet - but the characters themselves presumably understand perfectly.
It's supposed to be cool and mysterious, but really it's just annoying. Especially if you do it more than once.
This game does that a lot.
This release does it waaaaaay too much.

There's also something I think of as "the J.J.Abrams rule" which I believe has been true for every series J.J.Abrams has been a part of that contained these sort of mysterious conversations. At least it was true for several of his projects. There's plenty of other cases that could be used as the example: The supposed "Plan" the cylons had in the 2004 Battlestar Gofuckyourself reboot for example.
The rule says that if the writer is deliberately vague - no matter how loudly they proclaim otherwise - they don't have a fucking clue what the mystery is and will likely botch it at the end when they're forced to finally come up with *something* to fit the hints they dropped.
Corollary to that rule is that the fans will almost always agree on a much better solution than what becomes canon, and the writers explicitly won't use that solution because the fans came up with it instead of them.

Love this game.
Hate this trope.

I love the story, and you're shitting on it for the exact reasons why I love it. I think her use of narrative and indirect exposition has been genius. Your rule doesn't make sense here because Tess has proven how absurdly meticulous she is. And the 'no matter how loudly they proclaim otherwise' bit makes even less sense because everything is obviously intentionally written to be vague and subtle. Pearls before swine.

The conversation between Yvette and Astrid had at least two examples:
View attachment 4439886
1) Something they know about, but Veronica doesn't, and which is not specified in any way to even give players a hint.
View attachment 4439888
2) Astrid's wish, which she's sure Yvette will agree to, but won't tell her what it is until after Yvette agrees... and which isn't disclosed to players - at least not as far as I've played. (However, since it is not specified, it could even be referring to their scuba diving in the next scene.)

1) It's the revolution. They're keeping it a secret from Veronica, but as Miles pointed out, she already knows.

2) It's just scuba diving. Veronica babies Astrid too much and would refuse to let her do it.

Is that what they were talking about? But they also mentioned the revolution in that conversation like it was something else entirely. I'll take your word on it.

I should also add the whole pink diamond (that looks like a pyramid rather than any sort of diamond shape) McGuffin is a case where something seems to come out of nowhere, but will be inexplicably important to the plot sometime in the future.
Likewise, the entire conversation with Cole is written so vaguely that it's unclear if they're talking about things the player already knows (but might have forgotten) or talking about things the player doesn't know yet, and skips time to amplify the player's confusion about what is going on. I'll admit some of that might be necessary because of the wide variety of paths and player choices - AGAIN, I LOVE THIS GAME, THAT IS WHY I AM PLAYING - but this seems

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if not completely just fisting the player with a "Remember every detail OR ELSE."

It's a beautiful game with wonderful characters and a wide variety of really interesting options.
I love it. That's why it annoys me when it is deliberately vague.

The story doesn't work if it's not vague. Like, it doesn't work at all. Your complaints are like hating a murder mystery novel for not revealing the culprit on the first page.

I honestly do hate your assessment, but please don't feel personally attacked by me. I'm only coming off as mean because it's written text. If we were having this conversation face-to-face you would know I've got no problem with you.

Minor edits, but I just realized you might not have played all (or even many?) of the routes because Astrid and Yvette are only revealed as major players behind the revolutions taking place are only revealed on a specific route where a Good + Dominant Kane is friends with Junko and is approached by Otto to be recruited and later contacted by Yvette and Astrid.

Now I'm wondering what sort of experience a first-time reader would have going from episode 1-8 on a single route.

 

[Maviarab]

1) Something they know about, but Veronica doesn't, and which is not specified in any way to even give players a hint.

Only Veronica does know. Shown..in game. All routes. Can't be missed. Facts.

The rest of what you said...well...I won't even bother with. Another case of whining yet not actually paying attention or understanding.

Edit: I'd also add btw, Tess is a published author also, so probably knows more about how to write a compelling story than most, 'rules' or otherwise

 

[Maviarab]

Anais/Tess started a new TQA Spoilers channel.

For those interested in whats there currently:

Spoiler

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[Rufio]

There's this way too common trope where writers (film, novels, video games, etc) have characters speak vaguely about things the audience can't know about yet - but the characters themselves presumably understand perfectly.
It's supposed to be cool and mysterious, but really it's just annoying. Especially if you do it more than once.
This game does that a lot.
This release does it waaaaaay too much.

There's also something I think of as "the J.J.Abrams rule" which I believe has been true for every series J.J.Abrams has been a part of that contained these sort of mysterious conversations. At least it was true for several of his projects. There's plenty of other cases that could be used as the example: The supposed "Plan" the cylons had in the 2004 Battlestar Gofuckyourself reboot for example.
The rule says that if the writer is deliberately vague - no matter how loudly they proclaim otherwise - they don't have a fucking clue what the mystery is and will likely botch it at the end when they're forced to finally come up with *something* to fit the hints they dropped.
Corollary to that rule is that the fans will almost always agree on a much better solution than what becomes canon, and the writers explicitly won't use that solution because the fans came up with it instead of them.

Love this game.
Hate this trope.

Ah someone else fell into the trap of criticizing any aspect of this game, even after complimenting the game itself. Let's see what it was met with.... oh "you're wrong, you're whining, you're shitting on this game" hahaha classic.

 

[MilesEdgeworth]

I guess it makes sense the kane descendant cant bang astrid since veronica is a possible Li.

 

[Stan5851]

L7Bear, I agree with what kinkyshin and Maviarab wrote, I will only add that in the case of Tess - hidden meanings and hints in the dialog of characters - this is a separate charm of the game and an exquisite pleasure for all those players who like to solve riddles and by subtle hints and reservations to restore the picture of the world, which is still hidden from us...And I can say that we, the players, have succeeded in many ways in this, revealing what the average player, who enters this thread only at the time of release of updates, generally unknown.

And these mind games, these brainstorms give many of us great pleasure, we have new theories, assumptions, we compare facts, and it is really a very interesting process. Moreover, I will say that quite a few of these discussions are conducted outside this thread (but within this forum), otherwise you would go crazy (lol ) to see all our theories, assumptions and analytics in their, let's say, “raw” form..

Tess is very meticulous about every line of dialog she writes (perhaps her literary background, where attention to detail and nuance is an essential necessity for any self-respecting writer has an impact).. And what's written in these dialogs really matters...It's not just text for text's sake. So don't deprive people of the pleasure of an intellectual thought process that is interesting in its own right. Have a nice day and enjoy the game..

 

[RIFAT]

wow

 

[Silver_Crow117]

I guess it makes sense the kane descendant cant bang astrid since veronica is a possible Li.

One of the origins is of KG Background, the others are not

 

[MilesEdgeworth]

One of the origins is of KG Background, the others are not

True, but if Im reading that right, that's the only origin that cant get with Astrid's old ass

 

[PickerLewd]

The Grym Gudinna™ advertising Tremmi again .

I think I've seen their ads on at least 8 different Patreons, these guys are like those famous gambling sites that pop up everywhere and seem to have endless funds to advertise.

OK ma'am, you win, let's try it later .

 

[jadepaladin]

Anais/Tess started a new TQA Spoilers channel.

For those interested in whats there currently:

Spoiler

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At least the DAO influence stops at origin stories. Any more franchises get tossed in this melting pot and we'll have a Dr. Pepper problem, so many ingredients that one doesn't stand out.

Almost spit my coffee out at "Luke Skywalker (non-Disney version)." The fact we now have to make a distinction shows just how far SW has fallen. Also as long as you have an amalgamation of John Wick and Commander Shepard, you don't need the rest of the names on that list. Just make sure the MC has a dog.