- Jul 12, 2020
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- Thread starter TessSadist
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- Jul 12, 2020
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All I'm gonna say in response to that is...there's a whole lotta supposition going on there....I do sometimes wonder where you get some of your thoughts from.
- Mar 11, 2023
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Um, what? Sorry, but you're making stuff up. Kiyomi was talking about the servant in the red mask (who turned out to be Callista, I FUCKING TOLD YOU GUYS!
), not about Otto himself. The text doesn't leave room for interpretation, it's very clear whom she recognised. Kiyomi clearly is not a part of whatever DeKocks/Otto/RedMask are planning, but she didn't rat them either, which, depending on said goal, could make her a potential ally.Well let's take Kiyomi at the first Callista-Veronica meeting.
Question/Mystery: "Why is Kiyomi there? What does Kiyomi know? Why doesn't Kiyomi attack/reveal herself to the pair?"
I then look at the evidence of who the characters are, their codes and motivations, their uncontrolled internal monologue and automatic emotional/mental/physical responses to unexpected prompts being their only guaranteed honest thoughts/actions. I examine their actions and what they clearly know later in the game that there's no evidence of them knowing something prior to the scene in question. I consider relationships, who is loyal/working for/allied to whom, or against whom. I then consider every possible scenario that could match the evidence presented.
There is nothing in the scene that explicitly demonstrates Kiyomi knows who either woman is upon her arrival... but there is also no evidence that Kiyomi DOESN'T know who one or both of the women are, so until more evidence/revelation is given at a later date all four scenarios are possible: 1) Kiyomi doesn't know either, 2) Kiyomi knows who Veronica is, but not Callista, 3) Kiyomi knows who Callista is but not Veronica, 4) Kiyomi doesn't know who either of them are.
I also didn't mention there is the possibility that Kiyomi just saw the pair, but they were speaking too low for her to hear or make out what they were saying. Again, we don't have any evidence that confirms or denies whether Kiyomi could hear the conversation, as there has been ZERO follow-up to Kiyomi being there, making it almost seem like Tess including her was either a pointless addition (like Olivia deciding which Department she will work with first), or she just forgot (like Pamela).
I also look at multiple scenes, in the previous case, every scene with Otto, every non-sex scene with Junko, all of her scenes and statements about Dominique, all the scenes that suggests a connection between Otto and Dominique (there are none), every scene with Kiyomi (who is working with Otto), and others, but that's getting into the weeds.
As for the "important conversations happen after fade-to-black", here are some examples just off the top of my head (paraphrased):
Ep. 5 - Veronica-Yvette-Elena
V: Now I need to go over the logistics of this part of our project that Kiyomi has been running the day-to-day operations on, so buckle-up, we're going to be here a while.
BLACK
Ep. 5 - Dominique Proposes an Alliance
J: Alright, I'll consider the evidence [of Veronica pushing Olivia to the top] you have, but let's get off the boat first before you show me.
BLACK
Ep. 7 - Grymm Gudinna Lives
A: I want my sisters ready to kill each, and with any luck, that one of them will die. Now shut up and I'll tell you what I want you to do.
BLACK
Ep. 6 Kiyomi and Otto on top of the subUm, what? Sorry, but you're making stuff up. Kiyomi was talking about the servant in the red mask (who turned out to be Callista, I FUCKING TOLD YOU GUYS!
K: ...but I'm a little disappointed in you.
O: Why?
K: No one else will likely notice it, but I did. You made a mistake.
O: I did?
K: Yes. It's not enough to hide one's appearance. A very keen eye might recognize even the subtle movements that are unique and specific to an individual.
WHO made a mistake? Kiyomi says "You" meaning "Otto". The fake failed to properly copy Otto's subtle movements, so a keen eye would realize that something was wrong, and that "Otto" is not Otto. Kiyomi does not mention anyone else as messing up. If Callista is the one that messed up, then the fault is hers, NOT Otto's, especially considering her intelligence, and evident propensity for subterfuge. Why then would honorable Kiyomi blame an innocent party for another person's mistake?
And you say I'm making stuff up when Kiyomi specifically calls out Otto.
- Mar 11, 2023
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Dude, you provided a quote (I assume it's a quote) that proves my point and came to the opposite conclusion... English is not my native language, but I know that 'you' can mean both an individual ('Bob, you made a mistake') and a group ('You guys made a mistake'). Regardless, she's just pointing out a mistake - 'It's not enough to hide one's appearance. A very keen eye might recognize even the subtle movements that are unique and specific to an individual.' As in I see who's behind the mask because of how that person moves (and I recognize those movements).
So yes, you (the person) are making stuff up.
No, you are jumping to an other than direct meaning of Kiyomi's exact wording. The direct reading says Kiyomi is disappointed with Otto because Otto made a mistake. Anything else is an alternate meaning. In any textual interpretation, regardless of language or era, the direct meaning has the greatest weight, while alternate meanings are listed as possible, until extensive evidence is presented that overwhelmingly supports a specific alternate meaning over the direct one, the direct one is always the primary reading. A direct reading NEVER makes up stuff, because it is the exact verbiage that the author used.
- Mar 11, 2023
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- Oct 18, 2019
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That Callista is the one hiding under the red mask (in DeKock's arrival scene) was obvious from the beginning, as soon as Kiyomi told Otto that he made a mistake and so on. It was too fat and delicious a hint to think otherwise, hehe.Um, what? Sorry, but you're making stuff up. Kiyomi was talking about the servant in the red mask (who turned out to be Callista, I FUCKING TOLD YOU GUYS!
And yes, Kiyomi is running her own game, unrelated to Otto and the revolutionary conspirators...and that game personally intrigues me more than much else... Kiyomi and her code of honour are unlikely to allow her to openly betray the Karlsson's, those she has sworn to serve, but that doesn't mean she has to give 100% where it goes against her morals and code.
For example, she completely refused to participate in an upcoming violent show, then secretly softened Seth's painful experience with Juliette..She reacts negatively to any injustice (for example, if Olivia orders her to treat Kane more gently than the others) or if KaneDom is too harsh in dialogue with her and approves of holding death duels between the show's contestants.
Overall, I think she's just following her code of honour, countering Karlsson sisters' sadistic tendencies at every opportunity, but not hurting any of them. And, in my opinion, it's pretty obvious that the only one she truly trusts is Veronica...Vi has skeletons in her wardrobe too, but Kiyomi trusts her unconditionally, because only she can change something (if we are talking about global projects of continental and planetary scale).
So I think Kiyomi will be with her till the end no matter what happens and will die for her if need be.
Me too.
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- Jul 12, 2020
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No, he isn't...because the 'you' is neither defined, italicized or quoted (which would specifically refer to the person she was talking to). So in this case, the 'you' is a general term for the entire group given the context.
It does however beg the question, how the hell does she keep slipping in and out of the facility and more importantly get somewhere that Elena had to use a damn plane to get to. I guess we'll just leave that to callista plot powers and reasons
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You quoted me saying "you" to Sharpshooter890, and I didn't italicize or quote it. I also just now did the same thing to you inbthe previous sentence. So when I said "you" to Sharpshooter890 in my last post, and to Maviarab in the previous sentence, was I referring to the group, per your logic, or was I referencing the individual? The answer: the individual, that was my intent, that is what I said and that is all it means. Who are you and Sharpshooter890 referring to when you say "You are making things up," me individually, or a group of me's, as again there aren't any italics or quotes.
- Oct 18, 2019
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If you mean how Callista can move freely between closed rooms (like Veronica's closed labs, including her secret place where she took Kane)... then I guess it's pretty simple... Kiyomi after her dialogue with Otto (DeKocks arrival scene) could have informed Veronica of her arrival at JoyFacility, at which point Veronica gave Callista free passage to wherever she needed to go. Vi could have simply given a direct order to her AI, and it opened all the doors in front of Callista. Anyway, there could be several possibilities here.It does however beg the question, how the hell does she keep slipping in and out of the facility and more importantly get somewhere that Elena had to use a damn plane to get to. I guess we'll just leave that to callista plot powers and reasons
- Jul 12, 2020
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Well in this instance it has merit.Discussing even over semantics.
That's the magic of this game!!
Yu has taken Kiyomi's words to Otto as being directly 'towards' Otto, meaning himself. Then he comes up with this fantastical theory that someone who looks identical to Otto is pretending to be him...or, despite the fact there is nothing to support his theory, ever shown, nor hinted at, anywhere, someone is using Mission Impossible level technology to disguise himself...
Where as least three us (two being non-native English speakers I'll add) understood perfectly the meaning of the sentence, it's grammatical context and that Kiyomi was in fact not referring directly to Otto himself when she said "you made a mistake"...
Never mind the fact, all high-level Karlsson people speak in riddles, never speak straight or plainly and always carefully measure their words. But no...Yu jumps straight into the fantastical and then more so, claims it as fact but more theories made up to support the first one.
- Mar 11, 2023
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Huh? I swear, it's not my quote, the site must be broken or something. As for Callista wandering around JF, I think Nadia probably had something to do with it, she's allegedly the greatest hacker ever.
- Jul 12, 2020
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Well...fair yes lol...however, given she is supposedly trying to keep a low profile, not draw attention to herself, and doesn't want people to know she alive...
Either of those would be a little difficult to go unnoticed by...but as I said, plot reasons and Callista powers...cuz she Callista hehe. Which I'm fine with, it's just something that's always struck me as funny. The ole girl sure does get herself about lol.
- Oct 18, 2019
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Yeah, looks like the site crashed, couldn't handle our heated discussion, haha...
you're right, I was replying to this Maviarab post hereIt does however beg the question, how the hell does she keep slipping in and out of the facility and more importantly get somewhere that Elena had to use a damn plane to get to. I guess we'll just leave that to callista plot powers and reasons
- Jul 12, 2020
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We broke F95Yeah, looks like the site crashed, couldn't handle our heated discussion, haha...
- Mar 11, 2023
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One last thing I'll add on this particular issue to put it to rest. Otto is probably the 'head of security' for DeKocks, so it's his responsibility to conceal Callista at the JF until the time is right (even if he didn't come up with an idea of the red mask himself). So Kiyomi pointing that 'you made a mistake' can be applicable to both Otto's and DeKocks (as a whole) failure to do just that. Maskirovka has failed.