VN Ren'Py Kingdom of Deception [v0.14.2.1] [Hreinn Games]

[DreamingAway]

I'll try to answer your questions with the same criticisms I offered Nomo in their discord..
- Before delving deep into this game's development, the story should have been plotted out in advance. You can always add more side content along the way but a professionally made project at least has a plan for the completion of the main story.
- Regarding the lazy writing: The narration is weak and repetitive lacking substance. Nearly every scenario ends in the same linear way. The Dom route is almost non-existent at this point. Every 'quest' involves Sabia getting manhandled and raped, with rare options to let her take control. This also makes Sabia contradictory in nature. She's supposed to be a skilled warrior and a leader but she can't manage through simple negotiations and investigations without getting taken advantage of. Also, the dialog is weak. Other characters often speak not like characters in a medieval-style fantasy world but like modern people sometimes even using modern slang.
- As for getting the game back on track there are a few problem areas that need correcting:
1 - Return the art to the proper quality this game started with and be consistent. While you're at it, keep Sabia's body size consistent. She doesn't need to have massive tits to be sexy.
2 - Improve the narration and lay some proper clues to show that the story is on track. How is Sabia preparing for dealing with Jasmine and Lynn? When will she finally venture out of the Orc region or at least visit the shaman village? When will we finally learn what happened to the warchief?

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the reply.

To sum it up:

- The main story hook introduced at the beginning part of the game has largely been derailed for constant diversions that don't drive the story narration forward. The story and pacing of the game is stagnating.
- The illusion of a dom path feels unrewarding, most content is for the submissive path. (Quantity over Quality, it's not being executed well..?)

I can understand that, can you explain more what you dislike about the "rapey vibe" of the submissive path?

Noxian Nights played with those themes far more aggressively IMO.
That particular point I don't understand.

 

[Enigmanic]

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the reply.

To sum it up:

- The main story hook introduced at the beginning part of the game has largely been derailed for constant diversions that don't drive the story narration forward. The story and pacing of the game is stagnating.
- The illusion of a dom path feels unrewarding, most content is for the submissive path. (Quantity over Quality, it's not being executed well..?)

I can understand that, can you explain more what you dislike about the "rapey vibe" of the submissive path?

Noxian Nights played with those themes far more aggressively IMO.
That particular point I don't understand.

The main issue is that every quest plays out that way. I don't mind the rape and gangbang stuff in the submissive content. However, I have two main complaints:
1 - A well written porn game should allow the protagonist to take a submissive path that still allows her to make some tangible progress toward her goals.
2- The Dom route feels like it's almost abandoned. These recent quests lack a proper variation where Sabia gets to enjoy some sexy time while maintaining her dignity or at least exercising control over the situation.

 

[souldead341]

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the reply.

To sum it up:

- The main story hook introduced at the beginning part of the game has largely been derailed for constant diversions that don't drive the story narration forward. The story and pacing of the game is stagnating.
- The illusion of a dom path feels unrewarding, most content is for the submissive path. (Quantity over Quality, it's not being executed well..?)

I can understand that, can you explain more what you dislike about the "rapey vibe" of the submissive path?

Noxian Nights played with those themes far more aggressively IMO.
That particular point I don't understand.

Not the same poster, obviously, but a couple of things.

There's an early scene with the distinct sub / dom path which helps explain the changes with the sub path as well. It's interrogating a human (IIRC related to the trader, but it's been a while). On the Dom path Sabia is in full control during the scene and using being sexually dominant to get what she wants. The sub path of the scene has Sabia basically being a honeytrap, acting submissive during the scene and talking her way into him giving up the information by convincing him she's someone else / harmless.

More recent scenes on the submissive path all basically have Sabia being coerced / tricked / forced into sex, instead of her using sex to get what she wants in a different way. It's basically that every scene in the sub path now would be defined as rape. Sabia kinda feels like she makes no real choices to participate any more. There were some scenes like that early on, but it wasn't all of them.

 

[Negativpro0]

Why is it lazy?

What constructive criticisms have you raised?
(Is there a post that sums them up? If you already wrote this I don't expect you to write it again, Link or copy and paste it)

What do you mean every scene is a "rapefest" - how is that different from Noxian Night scenes when you take certain story routes?

What would you consider "back on track" ?

Problem with writing, compared to before is how sense it made in the game, not just the actions, just the way events are introduced. In the first part of the games, when Sierra was still there, story moved on by events, either timed or not. Let me give you some examples.

You start with the Trial of Sabia, you have some options regarding how you proceed, dom or sub, and the three individuals.
All choices you can make have sense. Either stick with the neutral captain, submit to the savage one or the suspiciously friendly to humans, you can even decide to be on your own. You can work hard for a few money, or reluctantly submit to the orcs for the money.
This is an important detail, Sabia does not like sucking orcs dicks, she submits for a reason and later on does the same in other situations, she submits sexually to avoid conflicts, have an easy way. It is a believable scenario.
Now compare it to later scenes, Sabia likes being ordered around and mistreated, this is true for Vehlis who gets raped until she likes it. This fits stuff like doujinshi, but is really different from what was estabilished before.
Submissive Sabia later on is horny and stupid, she acts silly forgets how to behave, from time to time she does not like being mistreated, other times she enjoys it. Player has more control in certain scenarios but her behaviour is inconsistent.

Noxian Night not only had a background for characters becoming more sexual, rape was not something featured many times there. You had rape scenes but mostly was just Riven having fun and there was not a rapey vibes in most scenes when they were fucking with monsters or Riven seducing people, it felt like she was in control almost all of the time. Scenes in the route with Dyuu for example did not have any rapey vibe.

Back on track would mean, in my opinion, going back to what feels like the original route of the game. Sabia explores the places on the maps, eventually visits other orc camps and human settlements and the story progresses from there. Raiding party or not.
At the current moment we should be working with Kira but, not really, we just mind our own business. We were supposed to investigate the Warchief being kidnapped but we are not doing that, we met this Jasmine character, but story has not gone ahead in any meaningful way, we mostly had a buildup.

When Sierra was writing game proceed by events. Catgirl raid caravan, we work on that and resolve it, next event; Horngod celebration we worn on that and resolve, next event; Redgod Arena, we work on that and resolve it, next event.
Grokhnak has not been found out, we have not taken the info we need from Kira, had no direct interaction with Jasmine, we have mostly been fucking around. we got sex scenes yes, mostly recycled CGs, already used in other parts of the game, but the story did not progress. Considering all the patches we received game clearly lost his track.

I hope this was clear. Regarding Nomo artstyle, it speaks for itself, one just needs to compare the pics in the gallery

 

[DreamingAway]

1 - A well written porn game should allow the protagonist to take a submissive path that still allows her to make some tangible progress toward her goals.

So your issue with the "Submissive & Rapey" theme in KoD is that it overstays it's welcome and devolves the story, vs Noxian Nights where it was a momentary thing, Riven's whole "I have a goal so whatever happens to me right now is meaningless" attitude - but she remains a fighter who is pushing towards that goal still?

Is that a fair representation of your opinion?

More recent scenes on the submissive path basically have Sabia being coerced / tricked / forced into sex, instead of her using sex to get what she wants in a different way. It's basically that every scene in the sub path now would be defined as rape. Sabia kinda feels like she makes no real choices to participate any more.

Is this a theme you dislike?
Devil's Advocate, there is an audience for this theme too - that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad or a drop in quality.

I would argue this is fairly in line with Noxian Nights..


EDIT

Noxian Night not only had a background for characters becoming more sexual, rape was not something featured many times there. You had rape scenes but mostly was just Riven having fun and there was not a rapey vibes in most scenes when they were fucking with monsters or Riven seducing people, it felt like she was in control almost all of the time. Scenes in the route with Dyuu for example did not have any rapey vibe.

I think I understand all your points. Sab's knee jerk change in personality that seems poorly developed and inconsistent vs Riven's more consistent personality and goals I think is a fair criticism.

I think you underplay the Non-Con events in Noxian Nights though.
House Owner / Castor Ending / Kat & Minotaurs / Losing almost any non-boss battle.

Do you generally dislike "Non-Con" in games that offer submissive characters? So the less it has, the better?

 

[Negativpro0]

So your issue with the "Submissive & Rapey" theme in KoD is that it overstays it's welcome and devolves the story, vs Noxian Nights where it was a momentary thing, Riven's whole "I have a goal so whatever happens to me right now is meaningless" attitude - but she remains a fighter who is pushing towards that goal still?

Is that a fair representation of your opinion?




Is this a theme you dislike?
Devil's Advocate, there is an audience for this theme too - that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad or a drop in quality.

I would argue this is fairly in line with Noxian Nights..

I know there is an audience for this theme. It is one of the reasons for why Nomo and Sierra split up, it is confirmed by her community too. It is a drop in quality since while it pleaseas some it does not fit the story the way it was estabilished before

 

[DreamingAway]

I know there is an audience for this theme. It is one of the reasons for why Nomo and Sierra split up, it is confirmed by her community too. It is a drop in quality since while it pleaseas some it does not fit the story the way it was estabilished before

I don't understand that though. Noxian Nights heavily featured it.
Wasn't the original beginning of the game a "Non-Con" orc scene? Was that axed because of Nomo, Sierra or Patreon?

That was the chosen beginning of the game while Sierra was working on it - right?

EDIT:
Maybe I am misremembering KoD.. but I don't feel like Non-Con is really featured that much more than NN did..

 

[souldead341]

Is this a theme you dislike?
Devil's Advocate, there is an audience for this theme too - that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad or a drop in quality.

I would argue this is fairly in line with Noxian Nights..

It depends a lot on how it's written ,and the relative number of that type of scenes for me. I added an edit to my post, but early on there was a mix of both the honeytrap or fully willing scenes with the rape ones. I know there's a market for all types of scenes, and if it was what the game was originally advertised as I wouldn't care. But the game was pitched as RPG where you get to choose sub vs dom routes.

Early Sabia was a good fighter and capable of leading military groups on campaign. She's pushed into a situation where she's basically forced to attempt to work with a group that was her enemies throughout her military campaigns. She can choose to use sex in various ways to get what she wants / needs, and yes can get raped if she messes up. She's politically canny enough to recognize both the her disadvantages, and what advantages she can use to get what she wants.

Current Sabia (especially in the submissive side, which I did most of my playthroughs on) basically is constantly getting tricked in nearly every political / negotiation type scene she's in. There's basically none of the early on cunning in the scenes. That's the drop in quality, not the type of scenes themselves (though IMO earlier scenes were better written), but the story surrounding how those scenes come about.

NN was always pretty consistent in how it presented the sex scenes. There was a fairly consistent advancement from being reluctant about sex to being desperate for it. Most of the scenes felt like there was at least some willingness on the character's part. And it was also what was advertised from the beginning: Riven is stuck in a town that has a lust aura going on, is weakened and starts to get slutty.

 

[Enigmanic]

I don't understand that though. Noxian Nights heavily featured it.
Wasn't the original beginning of the game a "Non-Con" orc scene? Was that axed because of Nomo, Sierra or Patreon?

That was the chosen beginning of the game while Sierra was working on it - right?

EDIT:
Maybe I am misremembering KoD.. but I don't feel like Non-Con is really featured that much more than NN did..

Nomo decided to cut that scene so the game wouldn't start with Sabia getting raped. This would have raised a flag with Patreon. Furthermore, Sierra wanted the story to progress a little before Sabia gets raped so that the player doesn't feel shoe-horned into following the Sub path.


I would add that the Submissive content should include a mix of two types of scenes.
- scenes where she gets tricked or duped or otherwise taken advantage of and used sexually.
- scenes where she uses sex to get what she wants while letting the men have their way with her.
There should be a mix of those types of scenes along the Sub path instead of Sabia just always getting tricked and raped.

 

[DreamingAway]

Current Sabia (especially in the submissive side, which I did most of my playthroughs on) basically is constantly getting tricked in nearly every political / negotiation type scene she's in. There's basically none of the early on cunning in the scenes. That's the drop in quality, not the type of scenes themselves (though IMO earlier scenes were better written), but the story surrounding how those scenes come about.

I would add that the Submissive content should include a mix of two types of scenes.
- scenes where she gets tricked or duped or otherwise taken advantage of and used sexually.
- scenes where she uses sex to get what she wants while letting the men have their way with her.

This helps me understand much better.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to me.

 

[Negativpro0]

I don't understand that though. Noxian Nights heavily featured it.
Wasn't the original beginning of the game a "Non-Con" orc scene? Was that axed because of Nomo, Sierra or Patreon?

That was the chosen beginning of the game while Sierra was working on it - right?

EDIT:
Maybe I am misremembering KoD.. but I don't feel like Non-Con is really featured that much more than NN did..

There are non consent scenes in NN, but of different nature. NN starts with the old guy blackmailing you, yes but it does not have the rapey vibe of multiple scenes in the game. Regarding my personal preference i am probably the last one who should complain, i am not a fan of rapey and non con scenarios, i enjoy Sabia being submissive and willingly letting herself be treated bad, But my favourite scene is the one with Lutvrog Neve and Sabia. I believe this is something the game offers that not many others do, Catgirls humans orcs and elves all fucking around is something nice. There are not many scenes in the game featuring 3 people from 3 different races having sex i like most of them.

 

[Negativpro0]

Also thank you for taking the time to read the posts and helping make a constructive exchange of thoughts. Really nice

 

[DreamingAway]

There are non consent scenes in NN, but of different nature. NN starts with the old guy blackmailing you, yes but it does not have the rapey vibe of multiple scenes in the game.

I hate to sound so pedantic.. But "different nature" how?
Losing to that zombie in NN is worse than anything I've seen in KoD.

I've learned a lot talking to all of you.. I think you all raise really great points.

Buttttt...

It's really hard for me to rationalize this one particular argument..

Noxian Nights features Non-Con themes throughout the game (I gave examples in the above post).. You can argue the quality, quantity.. but if your saying "Non-Con is okay in NN but not okay in KoD" without saying why - I think it's hard for me resolve that in my head.

 

[Brother Penetrātus]

snip

Former patreon here.

For me, it's the dull writing (literally the lines of text they write ), the decreasing art style, all the unfinished storylines which lead to nowhere and last but not least their way of communication which went from inclusive feedback to gorge or die.

Development started very well, but has become a sole meme over the past 6 years. Which is btw another point, but I do not even want to start with how much time has passed...

 

[DreamingAway]

Former patreon here.

For me, it's the dull writing (literally the lines of text they write )

I'll probably crash after this post.

Do you think you can expand on this? What do you hate about the writing?

Was it ever good?
Do they write too much? too little?
What are other games you've played that have better writing?

Do you value quality writing in adult games or not really?
( I commonly see posters on F95 say the story in "adult games" just gets in the way)

Thanks.

 

[MingXiao]

I could write a better story for KoD over the weekend.

 

[HikkiXxX]

Since this topic started, I already made a kind of re-estructure of the story and some gameplay changes. Its a lot to read BUT, I made this in, idk, an hour? I think this is a good way to shape the story back on track

"Rework of the dom/sub system + More ways to make lundils
The dom/sub number system is kinda forgot, so, we need to use it, but not for achieve hentai scenes in the main or sub quests, the grind of the numbers shouldn't reflect an impact in how good or bad an scene can be. Then, for what do we use it? To relax the main story part of the game, we need something to the player who doesn't want to read today and just want a relaxed jerk off and also to gain lundils in the game. In the Grok og Dar (the orc town) we could use
-Waitress (Tips for some gropping, and eventually sex, nudity, and also include de slutty outfit to the bar)
-Stores (Clothing store, Sabia shows outfit, gets groped, ripped the clothes, etc. For the others stores I need to think more, especifically the equipment store)
-Hellhound kennels (I need to say it? Lol)
-Maid service in the orc's tents (I mean, we already had a barmaid outfit and also repetitive scenes in orc tents, soooo *wink wink*)
-Tents because there is NO FUCKING WAY we can't use this in a porn game, I know originally Sierra think this was a good idea, and as much I respect her as fucking good writter, this is a bad decision
For the human town, for my surprise, there is a LOT of content to do, the slums and the bar already have scenes, but we can do more, as we already now
-Stables (Riven + Kat flashbacks, Sabia + Kat incoming PLEASE NOMO DO IT)
-Temple (Nun, we already saw Sabia as a nun, so, yeah, not a crazy idea)
-Training grounds (Sabia lose=Fuck, no need to complicate things)

Improve the captains influence in the orc town

At this point, Groknar is better dead (It was that his name? Can't even remember) so its time to make the vote about who will be the next leader of the orc town, depending on who will be, the story could warp one way or another

-Rockgrid -> We wil go to explore more human towns (Carchedon, we could continue the route of Barrin, influence in the Lundarian towns)
-Dajrab -> This option is, kinda complicated to schedule, I want to make it more of a free roam style but... I have already decided the free roam route, so, I thinked this route as a orc centred route, with the shamans with more influence than Dajrab itself, were we could see the impact of the Ornshaktar alliance or Ylva, it depending on your choices, with this I'm not saying that the routes of Rockgrid or Tekrok won't have shamans influence, just that THIS especifically route would have the shamans pushing for power as they see Dajrab a neutral leader, with no powerful allies except Sabia.
-Tekrok -> Ah, the CAOS option, with this one we will explore everything besides Lundar, we will prepare the scenario of a WAR. We will visit Catgirls campaments around the lands, to the Elves tribes and, of fuckign course, we will see the minotaurs, Naltan, where they have human slaves, yeah, this will be a FANTASTIC choice for Subia
-Sabia -> Well, this is a route than Sabia ALWAYS should be able to choose, why? Even if she takes the sub path, SHE IS A COMMANDER, fuck, she is the daugther of a powerfull mage and a fucking general of the army, the girl has it, she can liderate orcs, we already saw that when she trained her troops, well, now we can make it better with town management, where do you want more influence? Tents? Bar? Training Grounds? Who will you choose to be your allies? The captains who want power now that YOU are their leader? Neve? Jadk? This will be the literally description of free will, you can negotiate with force or sex, use your influence to win money, power or get laid, negotiate with foreign lands, try to make your allies and liderate this little orc town to get revenge or to find answers, as I said, is the player choice.


With this schedule, you can pretty much advance in the main quest to almost the finale, you can always put one or two sub quest to this advance but you need to see where the story is going to star moving to SOMEWHERE. As always, feedback is always welcome, in any way, if you say is shit, its okay, I won't be mad, if you want to change, contribute in something, always welcome and if you think its fantastic/good/awesome, then thank you very much"

 

[Brother Penetrātus]

Oh I don't hate their writing, it just became so bad over the past years that by now it's irrelevant if you read all lines or skip most of them. And with bad I mean uninspired, boring and in some cases even illogical or just plain dumb.

Was it ever good? - Yes
Do they write too much? too little? - Yes
What are other games you've played that have better writing? - Games by SierraLee or Akabur for example.

Do you value quality writing in adult games or not really?
( I commonly see posters on F95 say the story in "adult games" just gets in the way)

It depends. Of course there are plenty of games where the story is just there to set the theme and they are fine the way they are,
because they focus on what they want to achieve. But for me, a game has to be more than just a variety of different pics. The rule34 sites have literally hundreds of thousands of pics so I don't need a game to spice up my imagination. What I want is stories and characters, in a self-contained world that is believable in their own sets of rules.
An exaggerated example: Jacksons Lord of the Rings works, The Rings of Power............. not.

 

[Glasskull]

I often find something to be displeased about with each update, but with the "latest" one I am most pissed off at the dev for them checking off Ylva's quest as "finished". No it fucking hasn't been finished, you can't just tease Ylva's and Ornshakar's confrontation like that and just hold it off for another three years. You want to focus on ending quests, alright, but don't end one on a fucking CLIFFHANGER and say "ight this quest's done, let's get on to another one"
Also yes, I do play Subia under Ornshakar's influence and wanted to see Ylva completely broken, fite me

 

[scheriel]

Subia is love, Subia is life!