Ren'Py Abandoned Lab Rats 2 [v0.51.1] [Vren]

[Lunasmeow]

Okay, a few things for thise review. The bad first, then the good.

Bad -

1. Character design seems to be worse than in the preceeding game. That makes sense for the random procedurally generated characters... but the main characters should be custom and have similar looks to game 1. There's no reason for the family and ex-coworkers to suddenly be uglier.

2. Attention. This... doesn't make sense? This isn't a world like WORM where you have people constantly on the lookout for "Master" class individuals after all. So... why all the attention, on things that don't have side effects? Seems like attention should rise and fall with side effects. Anything else can easily be covered with a warning label. We often take meds that can cause all kinds of issues, personality changes included.

3. Uniform policies don't seem to be... right. Titles don't match descriptions. "Corporate Enforced Nudity" for example, doesn't make everyone nude at work.

4. Inability to drink your own serums. These things can directly increase stats, albeit temporarily. We should be able to drink those.

5.Certain interactions don't work properly. After having both mom and sister knowing about you being with both of them, sister will still say things like "as long as Mom doesn't find out" and so on. Mom might watch and enjoy seeing you with sister, but then later during the same continued scene disapprove.

6. Serum traits take FAR too much grinding to improve. Even using cheats it was a drag. An easier progression is required, or better cheats.

7. Loyalty only seems to work for loyalty to the company, not to the character. Needs some stat to keep a girl loyal to you. Maybe some sex like/dislike that keeps them loyal to you and/or your harem? This would allow for both NTR enthusiasts and those who hate it to enjoy the game.

8. Serum is nerfed massively. Previous game, changes placed were permanent. Here they're temporary. I get the temporary thing - making the initial changes temporary is better for the story - but there should be a higher tier where changes aren't temporary.

Good -

1. Better control over serum types and effects.

2. Ability to use serums on the inspector chick. Haven't gone far with that, but that it's even possible implies there are ways around the attraction issue.

 

[Evil Twin Skippy]

There's +50 suggestibility serum you can research for Nora and keep making for yourself afterwards. That said, 30 is more than enough to trigger at least once trance level in decently executed sex session.

When you finish up the higher level research tiers, you can get suggestion up to 75% (with the "mind control" component)

 

[toolkitxx]

tbh, i don't get why people go for Unity just to make Ren'Py-style games
I mean, everything is in there already - why re-program all that stuff again

(plus i know how to cheat in ren'py =X )

This is a very typical comment from people who actually dont make their own thing. For any project a dev decides for some engine and this decision is usually pretty early in a development process. The reasons for choosing one particular engine/environment over another are very varied and most often are not purely technical. Be it the personal knowledge of the underlying language, the ease of use - the list is actually very long why someone decides for a particular engine. Often enough a particular engine will lead to situations where a concept cannot be easily transformed into something that works or it requires a lot of extra work to get it to work in one particular engine/environment. That does not immediately translate into 'that engine is the wrong choice for .....'.

Bringing up Unity in this particular context isnt so surprising since the current trouble is related to 3D models and the work with them in the game. Unity as an engine allows for a pretty smooth switch between 2D and 3D and has a lot of basic functionality out of the box to support all kinds of stuff releated to these 2. That said - Unity was never mentioned by Vren afaik but the current problems are very much related to features that are simply out of the scope for a 'common' renpy project. The struggles are somewhat typical for what you would call an integration in business terms.

 

[Strec]

Bringing up Unity in this particular context isnt so surprising since the current trouble is related to 3D models and the work with them in the game. Unity as an engine allows for a pretty smooth switch between 2D and 3D and has a lot of basic functionality out of the box to support all kinds of stuff releated to these 2. That said - Unity was never mentioned by Vren afaik but the current problems are very much related to features that are simply out of the scope for a 'common' renpy project. The struggles are somewhat typical for what you would call an integration in business terms.

Unity is often brought up by ppl having no knowledge of real difficulty of developping a software and they see Unity as powerful as a real dev environment (generally in a team) but as simple as "programming" with Renpy

Looked a lot in the code of LR2 and I clearly doubt Vren would be able to port it to Unity or C++.

 

[Haranador]

tbh, i don't get why people go for Unity just to make Ren'Py-style games
I mean, everything is in there already - why re-program all that stuff again

(plus i know how to cheat in ren'py =X )

LR2 has more or less surpassed what you would associate as a “Ren'py game”.


Why the whole unity thing?
Basically, the default renpy features are very trivial to recreate by yourself, while the default unity features the game would profit from are very hard to implement in renpy. The current hold-up is in order to turn a bad system, namely exporting separate pictures of faces, clothing, bodies, hairs, etc. from Daz and “manually” combining them into character, into a less bad and less manual system. Daz allows you to almost drag and drop your characters into unity. You could just use actual 3d models in static poses, or even add animations if so inclined. With the additional benefit of clothes adhering to body shape, for example.

Does this mean unity is just a better option?
Hard to say. Keep in mind, this is very much a “from a quick glance it would seem like a good idea” type of deal. Switching engines is not a trivial thing. Modability would also suffer, as you can't just edit C# files like you can with python. Personally, I'm inclined to say yes unless the game is practically feature complete. The game already noticeably struggles with lag, so some optimization is going to become necessary in the future. Might as well switch now when you have a good reason for it and some stuff needs to be rewritten anyway. If your supporters are prepared to wait another couple of months, that is. Then again, this comes from someone with a professional education in computer science, I have no idea how hard it would be to jump languages for someone who is presumably self-taught, so take this with a grain of salt.

Is someone else gonna port it now it's open source?
Probably not. First, the game isn't actually open source. It doesn't use an open-source licence, just some lines from Vren stating you are allowed to use it as is as long as you don't profit from it and give credit to him. This is problematic for multiple reasons. Skipping the legal ones, why invest time and effort into something I cannot profit from while someone, to a degree, gets paid for my work. Not when you can just write the code for it yourself, call it SerumMaker and do with it whatever you want.

 

[nobodx]

This is a very typical comment from people who actually dont make their own thing. For any project a dev decides for some engine and this decision is usually pretty early in a development process. The reasons for choosing one particular engine/environment over another are very varied and most often are not purely technical. Be it the personal knowledge of the underlying language, the ease of use - the list is actually very long why someone decides for a particular engine. Often enough a particular engine will lead to situations where a concept cannot be easily transformed into something that works or it requires a lot of extra work to get it to work in one particular engine/environment. That does not immediately translate into 'that engine is the wrong choice for .....'.

Bringing up Unity in this particular context isnt so surprising since the current trouble is related to 3D models and the work with them in the game. Unity as an engine allows for a pretty smooth switch between 2D and 3D and has a lot of basic functionality out of the box to support all kinds of stuff releated to these 2. That said - Unity was never mentioned by Vren afaik but the current problems are very much related to features that are simply out of the scope for a 'common' renpy project. The struggles are somewhat typical for what you would call an integration in business terms.

Maybe you missed my point - it also wasn't just on Lab Rats as well.
I've tested a lot of the games from F95Zone and >90% of those Unity - Visual Novel (like) Games basically just copy Ren'Py - why try to re-invent the wheel again when there is already something that does all this?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Unity is a bad engine (or any other for that matter) but for those style of games, Ren'py is probably more suitable. And I know choosing an engine is one of the first things you have to do, and stick to it, because changing somewhere down the line would most likely result in re-writing the entire project from scratch.
(That's why I doubt Vren would go that step).

Lastly it comes down to "which engines the dev knows"

 

[toolkitxx]

Maybe you missed my point - it also wasn't just on Lab Rats as well.
I've tested a lot of the games from F95Zone and >90% of those Unity - Visual Novel (like) Games basically just copy Ren'Py - why try to re-invent the wheel again when there is already something that does all this?

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Unity is a bad engine (or any other for that matter) but for those style of games, Ren'py is probably more suitable. And I know choosing an engine is one of the first things you have to do, and stick to it, because changing somewhere down the line would most likely result in re-writing the entire project from scratch.
(That's why I doubt Vren would go that step).

Lastly it comes down to "which engines the dev knows"

I got the point about the comment being more than just LabRats2 - which is why i commented in the first place. Scalability is something where Renpy is not the right choice as an engine. It has it's strength in certain areas but scalability and expanding into more features isnt one of them (unless you code all out in python which makes Renpy as a package obsolete too).
Choosing a seemingly overpowered or overcomplicated engine for a project that could be done in something else doesnt mean it is the wrong choice if the dev already plans ahead for possible expansion - even if it never might happen. It is like with station wagons in cars. You might never really need all that space but it is nice to have it just in case.

Vren started to play with graphical features pretty early on and pushed Renpy already to its limits with the first few iterations - which is why the Unity statement isnt that new at all. LabRats2 isnt a novel at all which made Renpy a tricky decision to begin with - but Vren's main interest was from the beginning to enhance his skills and play around. Which made the engine decision less of an issue. The original 'problems' with the graphics where never really solved and he stepped into something new to solve that - which didnt lead to the expected result either yet. Dont forget - Vren made Lab Rats with Honey characters - so using DAZ was already something new for him in Lab Rats 2. Renpy works great with ready to go simple graphic formats and finished video material but has no features that directly support 3D which creates the current hassle Vren is dealing with.

 

[Diconica]

Unity is often brought up by ppl having no knowledge of real difficulty of developping a software and they see Unity as powerful as a real dev environment (generally in a team) but as simple as "programming" with Renpy

Looked a lot in the code of LR2 and I clearly doubt Vren would be able to port it to Unity or C++.

I don't know what Vren's current ability is. His game shows a lot of learning over time.
I can't say if he started from scratch at current you would have the same thing. He may just be trying to work with what he created and fix stuff on the way.

But I know I could port the game to C++ in short order. I could also just make it python and SDL2 dropping renpy and pygame.
Neither of which are bad.
Sure I could port it to unity as well. Would it be worth it? If he was going to make use of the features and add-ons available in unity maybe. If not it is sort of like using a sledge hammer where all you need is a framing hammer.
That's really what you need to look at when it comes to any game engine. Do you actually need it is it going to make the job easier, what's the cost benefit. You need to look at time it will take to get familiar with the engine, monetary cost and more.
One could also look at engines like GoDot and others.

If he is planning on staying with 2D using an engine similar to mine would be the way I would go.

I'm sure there are people out there who would give him a hand if he asked.

 

[hyfka]

Well said. I don't think changing engines would be worth it unless it comes with major benefits, such as the ability to render models at runtime. As in, a working 3D clothing system and boob slider instead of combining static images.

 

[Strec]

That's really what you need to look at when it comes to any game engine. Do you actually need it is it going to make the job easier, what's the cost benefit. You need to look at time it will take to get familiar with the engine, monetary cost and more.
One could also look at engines like GoDot and others.

When you start any software development, alone or with a team, there is one question that must come in priority, at the very beginning of the project :

what are the abilities I (or my team) own and for which ones do I need help

All other things are pure technical problems and a matter of will. If this question is not considered and answered you will finish in the long list of the hiatus/abandonned projects.

 

[swagfiend]

Vren is the classic solo porn dev who ropes learns how to code as they go and ultimately is strangled by their spaghetti code because they never learned how to properly plan a project. This was classic futile effort to make new implementations interface with shit code rather than just redoing old work to incorporate the new design - redoing old work is way faster, and you should already know what the end result should be.

With it going open source it seems the likely outcome from the public would be just redoing the spag bol. It doesn't need to be ported unless he wants to start animating shit, Live2D would work fine after being actually incorporated into the code and not just tacked on with an incomprehensible mess of trial and error.

 

[OsoSober]

so how do you download the update/ next installment? from gitgud?

 

[ffive]

so how do you download the update/ next installment? from gitgud?

There's likely to still be regular releases on the developer's site/patreon/whatever. The repository is just for collecting and merging contributions, similar to e.g. how Degrees of Lewdity runs its development.

 

[OsoSober]

There's likely to still be regular releases on the developer's site/patreon/whatever. The repository is just for collecting and merging contributions, similar to e.g. how Degrees of Lewdity runs its development.

thanks

 

[Diconica]

When you start any software development, alone or with a team, there is one question that must come in priority, at the very beginning of the project :

what are the abilities I (or my team) own and for which ones do I need help

All other things are pure technical problems and a matter of will. If this question is not considered and answered you will finish in the long list of the hiatus/abandonned projects.

If you think about what I said that's actually covered in it.
When you do a cost benefit analysis you take that into account.
Example: If you have no developers familiar with the engine then you it would take time for them to learn it. You do that with all the tools you need and what you want to produce.
If no one on the team has a skill you think you need would you out source it, hire someone else or would it be more prudent to drop what is making the requirement.

 

[Evangelion-01]

If you think about what I said that's actually covered in it.
When you do a cost benefit analysis you take that into account.
Example: If you have no developers familiar with the engine then you it would take time for them to learn it. You do that with all the tools you need and what you want to produce.
If no one on the team has a skill you think you need would you out source it, hire someone else or would it be more prudent to drop what is making the requirement.

...or you make an entire game as a learning experience like Lab Rats 2 is.
Vren was pretty obvious and transparent at the beginning of this project that this was mainly planned to teach him the ins and outs about RenPy and test himself how far he could get.

He might find himself cornered enough at one point to actually switch engines... but wether he'll do so with Lab Rats 3 or remake Lab Rats 2 in that engine is anyones gues.. maybe even Vrens

 

[Choyz]

is there any way to edit the random randint like before v.0.5 ?
like i can edit the random range in ver.0.49.1, but now it seems it got change...

 

[Diconica]

is there any way to edit the random randint like before v.0.5 ?
like i can edit the random range in ver.0.49.1, but now it seems it got change...

Sure they are in different files is all now. Use notepad++ and you can have it search all the files in a directory for the stuff you are looking for.

 

[HootieMcBoob]

I haven't been following the game closely. I see talks about porting to live3d or unity or maybe not?
Is there a page/postnr i should start reading?

 

[Phoexist]

I haven't been following the game closely. I see talks about porting to live3d or unity or maybe not?
Is there a page/postnr i should start reading?

That's all just internet gossip while people are waiting around. The dev hasn't given any indication of changing engines. The Live2D stuff is just a tool that the dev is trying to incorporate to make the layered images easier to create, but seems to have hit a snag.