VN Ren'Py Left Hand Magic [Build 22P] [Novus]

Jaike · Sep 17, 2024

jufot said:
Sure, but at least it would make sense for Mira. Or, alternatively, you could add a scene where Mira and Arianna have a talk on boundaries re: dicks, and make that the place where the player can choose. If you're cool with dicks, the glory hole scene (which would appear much later on) could proceed without the need for cognitive dissonance.

I think you'll always have player/reader concerns "impinge" on the story or the characters' motivations. I doubt a sudden unavoidable sex scene with a male partner would go down well in the average male-MC game either. That's just how it works in this scene, and that isn't only a self-inserting thing either.

And I don't want to overstate the scarcity of games with meaningful pure lesbian paths, but it isn't the most well-catered niche either, really.

jufot said:
Or, alternatively, you could add a scene where Mira and Arianna have a talk on boundaries re: dicks, and make that the place where the player can choose. If you're cool with dicks, the glory hole scene (which would appear much later on) could proceed without the need for cognitive dissonance.

That could be an alternative for player input in the scenes themselves, but Novus overhauled this exact aspect of this exact route before. So I doubt they're eager to completely change it again. But I'm not the dev, so I can't be sure about that.

jufot said:
I'll refer you to my reply to GokutheG I'm not advocating for non-consent. I'm pointing out the inherent silliness of dumping a ton of exposition on the player about how the traffic light magic is instinctive, how Mira just knows if she's up for something, and then suddenly abandoning that bit of worldbuilding - to game breaking effect! - because of player concerns.

My paragraph didn't take aim at non-consent, but at the idea that it was a contradiction. Mira giving negotiated consent or the player giving consent are just 2 different designs for CNC.

jufot said:
Now that I've played till the end of Arianna's current route, it actually gets better! I had to bypass the above bug with some console shenanigans, but if you reject dicks again at the club in week 5 you finally get the "I can't date you if you don't like dicks" conversation. Good stuff! I actually love that the game is decisive about it - No dicks? Fine, but no Arianna romance for you because she is pan, not player-sexual

Isn't that a temporary thing?

jufot · Sep 17, 2024

Jaike said:
Isn't that a temporary thing?

I'm not sure? The scene I'm talking about has Mira end the romance with Arianna and stay FWBs because the former is not interested in dicks. I understood that to mean they'll still have casual sex, but Arianna won't try to force dicks into Mira. I don't see anything in that link to negate that.

Although, now that I think about, there is a scene shortly after where Mira gets dicked by a futa robot, so it's not entirely consistent. Hmm

Jaike · Sep 17, 2024

jufot said:
I'm not sure? The scene I'm talking about has Mira end the romance with Arianna and stay FWBs because the former is not interested in dicks. I understood that to mean they'll still have casual sex, but Arianna won't try to force dicks into Mira. I don't see anything in that link to negate that.

Although, now that I think about, there is a scene shortly after where Mira gets dicked by a futa robot, so it's not entirely consistent. Hmm

Probably splitting the different versions of Arianna's path into a romance path and a casual sex path, then? Is that from build 20?

jufot · Sep 17, 2024

Jaike said:
Probably splitting the different versions of Arianna's path into a romance path and a casual sex path, then? Is that from build 20?

No, build 19. If you reject both dicking choices, Arianna gives you a whole "I'm pan, you're clearly not, let's either be FWBs or just friends" speech. The latter isn't implemented yet (game over screen). The former just keeps you having sex with her. But as far as I can tell, it's still the same sex you'd be having in a "romance path". Or at least, I'm yet to see anything that suggests a "we're not dating, just fucking" distinction.

I assume that's intentional, to keep extra development effort to a minimum.

NovusPeregrine · Oct 3, 2024

jufot said:
I think I found a bug. If you go for a solo Arianna play and have a "no dicks, ever" policy you end up with SubPoints=9 at the end of week 4, which means you hit an unavoidable game over screen at the end of the week since Arianna's week 5 events require SubPoints>10.

That said, I think this bug is the consequence of a wider problem with Arianna's path. I'll elaborate. While I mostly like her content, I'm of two minds about the "mind control". It's CNC, not sexual assault, which is good but... maybe it pulls its punches a bit? We're given all that spiel about the traffic light system being instinctual, how Mira doesn't have to even think about whether she's OK with something - she just knows - but then you get a scene like the glory hole where the dev is afraid to push the player too much, even though Mira-the-character should have a pre-determined reaction.

And if you do reject the glory hole, the game falters entirely because you are not supposed to make that choice. The date ends with a cold tension and Mira says she needs to talk to Arianna next time they meet, but the very next scene is once again happy-go-lucky mind control, as if the previous scene didn't happen. What's worse, you actually MUST have the SubPoints from that scene to proceed into week 5, hence the above bug.

A quick fix would be changing the week 5 trigger to SubPoints>8. But to fix the narrative, I think you need to be bolder NovusPeregrine. Like, if Mira is into CNC, let her make the decisions - not the player - which is already the case for most Arianna scenes. Don't give the player an out, and you won't have any bugs like this

So, I'll look into the points thing. However, it shouldn't be the case. There are several places to pick up extra sub points. In example, you can pick up a few during the prologue/intro section that you might have missed. There's something of a balance issue there, where I don't want it to be too easy to meet every requirement, but have to make sure it's possible. It should be possible, but I'll have to sit down and tally up the points in a 'no dicks' scenario.

As for your issue with Mira's actions versus Player Agency...I'm afraid that's the result of previous complaints by others. Originally, there wasn't an option to turn down the blowjob scene in full. I added that feature because I got a lot of protests/kickbacks/complaints/whining from players that they wanted to continue Arianna's Route without getting dicks involved. Like, more kickback and more violent complaints than I've gotten about any other things in the entire game. Thus, I went back and improved the amount of player agency available, even if I sort of agree that it makes Mira a bit more wishy-washy than I'd really have liked for the route.

This is a case of 'I can't please everyone,' so I just did the best I could to let people play how they like, without completely destroying the story of the route. Something which should be clear to you from the fact that people immediately started arguing with you, too ;-).

Jaike said:
There's the design awkwardness, call it story design or content design, of "forcing" occasional sexual interactions with male characters on a female LI's route in a game with mostly FF content tho. Even if the MC and all female LIs are bi. And to be honest, that awkward design choice is surprisingly common in FF games, even sometimes in games by female queer devs. But though the game hasn't been advertised as lesbian, it hasn't been advertised as explicitly bi either, just... as a game with a female protagonist and 3 female and 1 futa LIs. I'm pretty sure removing the choice to avoid male sex partners on Arianna's route'd hurt the appeal for lesbian players too. So I don't think it's a good idea to remove the choice. But hey, it's Novus's party.

So if players follow Arianna's path, to put it in a different way, they "sign up" for sexual content with a female character. It isn't like Talia's path, where they know she's futa before the first workday and everybody has all information they need to make a decision.

About the supposed contradiction, it's CNC, not NC. The point is that the "non-consent" part is negotiated beforehand.

Yeah, this. I got a lot of kickback when I originally didn't leave a lesbian-only option for Arianna's route. I've made adjustments in light of that, going as far as I felt I could to allow for it without wrecking the overall route story. As you implied, a lot of that kickback came from lesbian players who felt I'd sprung a trap on them, despite never actually stating that the game was lesbian-oriented. While the vast majority of the game's interactions are Female/Female or Female/Futa, the MC was written as bi-sexual from the start, with occasional mentions of her having been involved with guys in the past scattered throughout the story. That said, I understand/understood the frustration, given that adult games where it's even possible to play a lesbian are sort of hard to come by. So I made as much adjustment to the game as I could, within reason.

jufot said:
Now that I've played till the end of Arianna's current route, it actually gets better! I had to bypass the above bug with some console shenanigans, but if you reject dicks again at the club in week 5 you finally get the "I can't date you if you don't like dicks" conversation. Good stuff! I actually love that the game is decisive about it - No dicks? Fine, but no Arianna romance for you because she is pan, not player-sexual

Yep. The route was always planned to have Arianna as a Pansexual type. In response to feedback, I made her route a bit more accessible, and intend to include a 'friends with benefits' alt route that allows you to complete her story without a full romance. But it won't be as full-featured as her full-romance route. I made each of the routes of the game feature a different dynamic on purpose, to cover a broad spectrum, but that means I'm not willing to completely disregard the various character personalities in favor of always letting the player do whatever they want. That just results in characters without much personality -_-.

NovusPeregrine · Oct 3, 2024