DeSkel15

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And here I was thinking that in the story the guy was so easy to empathize with haha.

Yeah, that's actually how imagine god

Well, I never tried to create an scenario that could fit in Sensei story, just bring in some examples of how judging if someone's being is good or... not good?
I mean I do feel sorry for the guy, but I also feel sorry for the ones who died at his hands. The local guerrilla can be turned inside out and forced to live forever, alone, in an infinite desert full of invincible fire ants though. I'd be a wrathful god probably, lmao.

I feel like this game fits the conversation topic as there are gods, and many different views of what's right, wrong, and how Sensei, the MC, is seen by others. Noriko who's official weakness is compassion sees him as a good person who's just been through a lot. Meanwhile there's Nodoka who seems to see him as a horrible person who pretends otherwise. Someone like her and Yumi who isn't worthy of a happy ending:
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Yeah I definitely have a very different way of seeing and interpreting things, because I don't think we're perceiving Senesei's words the same way haha, but I already explained before how I understand this kind of speeches from sensei, so I'm not going to repeat myself again here.

But well, it's probably me being very optimistic once again.

I think it's a little hard for me not to empathize with literally anyone or anything, it's like, I always try to put myself in other's shoes, or looking for the reason behind the words/actions of somebody.
Random, but If I were to compare us to the characters, you probably see things more like Noriko, while I see things more like Nodoka.

I also can definitely empathize with a few characters in this game, especially Yumi, but, tbh, that's just more reason to expect better from them for me.
 
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alex2011

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Those examples do have bad, and multiple reasons though (as I went over), so it seems pretty flawed.

Anyone can do "good things", but that doesn't mean that they do them for a "good reason". Hence my initial point.
I'm not seeing a bad reason for those specific cases. Out of the four examples I named in the inline spoilers, only the third and fourth seem to have a bad reason behind his actions. If I remember correctly, even Sensei was questioning why he was doing some of the things he did without a bad reason behind doing them.

I'm with you, I like characters that I hate because of how they're written. It feels good to dislike a character's personality, and not because they were poorly written.

Neither will any of our hard drives. I wonder if Sel will eventually break the game up into chapter downloads because it's getting ridiculous.
I highly doubt it, he would have done that by now if he had planned on it. It's already at the point where a chapter split would be effective from an exclusively storage based standpoint, so his usual method would have already had this happening if he planned on it at all. My best guess, we're going to maintain the non-split game we have now.

If I somehow hope to have a chance to fuck someone, then whatever I do for that person has ulterior motives? Can't I maybe fantasize with someone and at the same time wanting to genuinely help em?


Can't it be this Sensei just trying to give some good advice? I mean, I consider myself the most honest and transparent person I know lol, but sometimes I have said something similar to other people for believing me so easy, it's like: "You shold not believe this fast in anybody, not even me".
Yes, this is absolutely possible. A person, or character in LiL for that matter, can think one thing and do another even if that action seems to go against what they are thinking and doesn't seem to have any benefit toward the original thought even after the fact. Sensei could help a girl without it needing to be connected to his overall plan to fuck every last one of them just because he wants to help them for whatever reason.

Just for the record this is what I was trying to say before, just, with less words, and even better explained i guess lol



This is funny because when I started this I wasn't even thinking about intentions or acts being good or bad.

And at the same time is boring because I think you guys went for the easy part.

I was thinking more about a peasant 5 year child living in the countryside of a third world cuntry being being kidnapped and raised by the local guerrilla, being threatened with killing his little sister if he doesn't follow orders, having to live a life that he did not choose and did not have the option to choose, and then grow up in that environment, become friends with his companions, kill at first out of obligation, and then out of conviction, but a conviction that some would say it was his choice and others that was because that was the only world he could ever know because at the end of the day the only love he ever knew were there, and suddenly one day a bullet hits him in the head and ends his life at 18 years old, the life of another unknown guerrilla ends, just after that same life has taken that of three others, and despite doing very bad things, with, some would say, very bad intents, how that god would judge that man?


But even that is easy.

How about that crazy guy that one day kidnapped, raped and then murdered your older sister when she was coming home from college?
That guy raised in a commoner class home, with a depressive father that killed himself when he were 5 and his maniac and deranged mother that couldn't bear her loss, decided to blame his only son, and then abuse him physically and finally sexually as well, eleven years of abuse until one day she decides to take her own life, leaving him alone in the world. Feeling guilt, hatred, emptiness, trying to stay sane until that day when, feeling like he was going to explode, he decided to let out all his anger with the first person he saw on the street.
That boy who dreamed of one day being a doctor and helping others, would he go to heaven?
No, their actions are morally bad in both of your examples and even their intent would be morally bad in these examples. These are both examples of a pretty clear case of bad actions taken for bad reasons even if there is no other choice.

If the actions taken by the first had been against the guerillas, things would be different and there would at least be a possibility of his actions being morally good. Even killing, if targeted at the right people under circumstances where there can be no other justice like taking said people in alive to face trial or where attempting to take them alive puts innocent lives at risk, is a good action. However, your example sounds like it is targeted at the innocent, which is what makes it bad.

The second one can never be good in either action or intent. Kidnapping, rape, and killing those who bear no immediate danger to innocent lives or that could be taken in alive to face trial are all bad actions regardless of intent.

You can do whatever you want. But yeah, if you are helping someone just because you think it'll increase your chances of getting laid (like Sensei) and you didn't reveal that to them, that's definitely an ulterior motive. Not that much different than trying to pay for sex, except there's no actual agreement here. (Cue all the guys whining about girls not sucking them off for being "nice".)

On the other hand, helping because you want to help them and expecting nothing in return would mean there isn't an ulterior motive.

Also, Sensei is giving good advice. Trusting him is a bad idea (he's talking about himself and what he's done specifically here, not just anybody). Keep in mind, this is after he let Nodoka humiliate Yumi and optionally cuck her by sucking him off in front of her. He later does similar to Noriko optionally. Sensei seems to virtually always put his lust above others in the end. Girls sadly crying, at least seems to help him restrain himself around 15 year olds, though.
It's only an ulterior motive if that was the motivation behind the action. In most cases with Sensei, yes, this is the motive. In a select few, it cannot clearly be said that it is.

As far as the "cucking," I'm not sure the Nodoka/Yumi one counts, Yumi hasn't shown actual interest despite what we players suspect, and the Noriko one wasn't exactly by choice if it's the case I think of when you bring her up. In that case, Sensei both didn't know she was there because she hid and wasn't returning her advances plus he didn't exactly get the choice to not do it, Ami was involved.
 

Algorist

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Sensei, or rather Akira, is such an intriguing character to me. A broken man. One who knows what he's doing is abominable; one who feels what he's doing is deplorable; one who loathes what he indulges in while reveling in it. A pitiful man. A pathetic man. An agonized man. A man whose life is his own cross.

He is unmistakably evil, yet his spite for himself is nothing but proof that's not all he is. He has a conscience. He has good in him, too. As all do.

Nodoka is wrong, and Noriko isn't right.
 

DeSkel15

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Sep 29, 2019
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I'm not seeing a bad reason for those specific cases. Out of the four examples I named in the inline spoilers, only the third and fourth seem to have a bad reason behind his actions. If I remember correctly, even Sensei was questioning why he was doing some of the things he did without a bad reason behind doing them.


I highly doubt it, he would have done that by now if he had planned on it. It's already at the point where a chapter split would be effective from an exclusively storage based standpoint, so his usual method would have already had this happening if he planned on it at all. My best guess, we're going to maintain the non-split game we have now.


Yes, this is absolutely possible. A person, or character in LiL for that matter, can think one thing and do another even if that action seems to go against what they are thinking and doesn't seem to have any benefit toward the original thought even after the fact. Sensei could help a girl without it needing to be connected to his overall plan to fuck every last one of them just because he wants to help them for whatever reason.


No, their actions are morally bad in both of your examples and even their intent would be morally bad in these examples. These are both examples of a pretty clear case of bad actions taken for bad reasons even if there is no other choice.

If the actions taken by the first had been against the guerillas, things would be different and there would at least be a possibility of his actions being morally good. Even killing, if targeted at the right people under circumstances where there can be no other justice like taking said people in alive to face trial or where attempting to take them alive puts innocent lives at risk, is a good action. However, your example sounds like it is targeted at the innocent, which is what makes it bad.

The second one can never be good in either action or intent. Kidnapping, rape, and killing those who bear no immediate danger to innocent lives or that could be taken in alive to face trial are all bad actions regardless of intent.


It's only an ulterior motive if that was the motivation behind the action. In most cases with Sensei, yes, this is the motive. In a select few, it cannot clearly be said that it is.

As far as the "cucking," I'm not sure the Nodoka/Yumi one counts, Yumi hasn't shown actual interest despite what we players suspect, and the Noriko one wasn't exactly by choice if it's the case I think of when you bring her up. In that case, Sensei both didn't know she was there because she hid and wasn't returning her advances plus he didn't exactly get the choice to not do it, Ami was involved.
If grooming a teenager into trusting you, so that you can fuck them, and making yourself feel better for the things you've already done to them, aren't "bad reasons", then I guess that's just how you see things.

An ulterior motive is any motive that isn't revealed. Any unrevealed reason more than simply wanting to help a person when you're helping them is an ulterior motive by definition.

Also Yumi has likely crushed on Sensei since before the start, and there's plenty of inferences. It's also been revealed she masturbates to him:
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The main reason Nodoka did that to Yumi was to cuck her. Hence why she made sure not to give Yumi the option of blowing Sensei. Nodoka believed Yumi would have taken that third option, and as Nodoka said, she wanted Yumi to have nothing.

Sensei also knew Noriko was there and still facefucked another girl (Ami) in front of her, knowing Noriko wouldn't like it. He definitely chose to do this instead of stopping her. He did do similar to Noriko with Niki back in the day, but back then, yeah he didn't know she was actually there. I'm also thinking a similar scenario happened with Maya, but that needs more intel.
 
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DeSkel15

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Sensei, or rather Akira, is such an intriguing character to me. A broken man. One who knows what he's doing is abominable; one who feels what he's doing is deplorable; one who loathes what he indulges in while reveling in it. A pitiful man. A pathetic man. An agonized man. A man whose life is his own cross.

He is unmistakably evil, yet his spite for himself is nothing but proof that's not all he is. He has a conscience. He has good in him, too. As all do.

Nodoka is wrong, and Noriko isn't right.
You more or less just said what Nodoka has been saying, just with an added caveat that he has "good in him" which I dont recall Nodoka ever saying he didn't, so I'm not sure why you'd say she's wrong.

Nodoka's whole thing is wanting the real Sensei:
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There's a reason Sensei is secretly envious of her, while considering her an ideal version of himself:
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Sensei is similar to a Nodoka that is cowardly and delusional in a way.

Hence, why he's using Nodoka as an outlet for the feelings he hides from everyone else:
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Nodoka is someone just like him:
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Honestly, I find it a little hilarious how Nodoka seems to be demonized when Sensei could be seen as a much worse, more experienced, and much more cowardly version of her, except, you know, twice her age with a cock. Sensei makes her look good in comparison imo.
 
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fdsasdf_p

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Sensei, or rather Akira, is such an intriguing character to me. A broken man. One who knows what he's doing is abominable; one who feels what he's doing is deplorable; one who loathes what he indulges in while reveling in it. A pitiful man. A pathetic man. An agonized man. A man whose life is his own cross.

He is unmistakably evil, yet his spite for himself is nothing but proof that's not all he is. He has a conscience. He has good in him, too. As all do.

Nodoka is wrong, and Noriko isn't right.
Maya posted this isn’t it :ROFLMAO:
 
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AgumenticR

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Honestly, I find it a little hilarious how Nodoka seems to be demonized when Sensei could be seen as a much worse, more experienced, and much more cowardly version of her, except, you know, twice her age with a cock. Sensei makes her look good in comparison imo.
He attempts to care in other ways, though. It is yet shallow - perhaps immature would be a better way to put it - has a lot of trouble growing and defaults to his usual entirely self-interested dynamics when push comes to shove for now, but the attempts are there. He is cowardly because he doesn't want to indulge in the kind of care he and Sekai had for each other, but also doesn't know anything else and is not sure he is even capable of anything else. Nodoka, on the other hand, seemingly feels no hesitation to embrace the exact kind of behavior Sekai cultivated, which is certainly less cowardly, but I would struggle to call it better.
 

DeSkel15

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He attempts to care in other ways, though. It is yet shallow - perhaps immature would be a better way to put it - has a lot of trouble growing and defaults to his usual entirely self-interested dynamics when push comes to shove for now, but the attempts are there. He is cowardly because he doesn't want to indulge in the kind of care he and Sekai had for each other, but also doesn't know anything else and is not sure he is even capable of anything else. Nodoka, on the other hand, seemingly feels no hesitation to embrace the exact kind of behavior Sekai cultivated, which is certainly less cowardly, but I would struggle to call it better.
Sensei is more cowardly, not because he cares about others, but because he cares about how others will see him. His attempts at caring are more like excuses he creates to ignore how he really is, and masks to keep others from seeing what's underneath. If he actually cared, there would be no need to even attempt to try.

Nodoka definitely embraces the horrible parts of herself, but even she seems to underestimate how horrible Sensei actually is:
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To be frank, I'd argue that Nodoka actually cares more about others than Sensei does:
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She just doesn't delude herself about who she is like Sensei. It's probably why he thinks Nodoka doesn't feel anything. The idea of someone being honest with themselves seems impossible to exist otherwise, to him. That's just how cowardly he is.

Sensei definitely wants to indulge in his desires btw. He just doesn't want to feel bad about it, hence stuff like this:
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"I'm sorry" he says to someone who couldn't possibly know what he's actually done... Coward.
 

AgumenticR

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Sensei is more cowardly, not because he cares about others, but because he cares about how others will see him. His attempts at caring are more like excuses he creates to ignore how he really is, and masks to keep others from seeing what's underneath. If he actually cared, there would be no need to even attempt to try.
If all he cared about was how others see him, he wouldn't avoid several relationships others would approve or accept, and he wouldn't try to develop several others in the directions that while not much different from outside perspective are very different from an inside one. At the very least, he also cares about how he sees himself, and he wants to see himself as someone who cares. Whether there's any difference between that and actually caring is a rather philosophical debate full of vagueness. In any case, there's certainly a need to try when the example of "caring for" that stands strongest in his mind is Sekai.
Sensei definitely wants to indulge in his desires btw. He just doesn't want to feel bad about it, hence stuff like this:
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If he really wanted to indulge in them, he wouldn't feel bad about it in the first place.
 

DeSkel15

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If all he cared about was how others see him, he wouldn't avoid several relationships others would approve or accept, and he wouldn't try to develop several others in the directions that while not much different from outside perspective are very different from an inside one. At the very least, he also cares about how he sees himself, and he wants to see himself as someone who cares. Whether there's any difference between that and actually caring is a rather philosophical debate full of vagueness. In any case, there's certainly a need to try when the example of "caring for" that stands strongest in his mind is Sekai.

If he really wanted to indulge in them, he wouldn't feel bad about it in the first place.
He would if he wanted his other partners like Chika to not find out and stop having sex with him. He's a slut, and a smart one. He's not trying to end up with less sex.

Sekai actually seemed to care more about Sensei than he does for a few of these girls he's fucking, tbh.

Nah, if he really didn't want to indulge in them, he wouldn't indulge in them. The feeling bad part has nothing to do with the desires themselves, it's about how they make him look to others and himself.
 
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alex2011

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If grooming a teenager into trusting you, so that you can fuck them, and making yourself feel better for the things you've already done to them, aren't "bad reasons", then I guess that's just how you see things.

An ulterior motive is any motive that isn't revealed. Any unrevealed reason more than simply wanting to help a person when you're helping them is an ulterior motive by definition.

Also Yumi has likely crushed on Sensei since before the start, and there's plenty of inferences. It's also been revealed she masturbates to him:
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The main reason Nodoka did that to Yumi was to cuck her. Hence why she made sure not to give Yumi the option of blowing Sensei. Nodoka believed Yumi would have taken that third option, and as Nodoka said, she wanted Yumi to have nothing.

Sensei also knew Noriko was there and still facefucked another girl (Ami) in front of her, knowing Noriko wouldn't like it. He definitely chose to do this instead of stopping her. He did do similar to Noriko with Niki back in the day, but back then, yeah he didn't know she was actually there. I'm also thinking a similar scenario happened with Maya, but that needs more intel.
It's not grooming to help them, the other cases yeah, but there was no apparent grooming or even sex based motive behind the specific actions I mentioned. The majority of his actions, yes, they would have a sex based motive and would be grooming because they are working toward his goal of fucking them and blatantly so for anyone other than the girls he's trying not to broadcast this motive to.

However, when even he questions why he does something and he's helping a girl who isn't going to get any closer to opening her legs for him by being helped finding a job or a girl who isn't going to open her legs because he was there as emotional support when she got rejected or was depressed, then either he's insane by definition in that he's trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result or he's not expecting what he knows he's not getting from these actions.

An ulterior motive also has to be a result expected by the person who has it other than the outcome they are helping to achieve, such as finding Yumi a job, that in itself would be disqualified as an ulterior motive because that is the outcome both of the two characters involved are expecting. For this case, he would have to be expecting Yumi or Rin to give him something in return for both of the above inline spoilered cases that is not Yumi getting a job and Rin getting through her emotional rough patch, but he shows no signs he was doing them expecting anything in return for those specific actions. Throughout the story, the majority of his actions do have one very specific expected result, sex with a girl, and that would indeed be an ulterior motive but that is seemingly absent in both of the above cases.

As far as Nodoka, not sure how it would be considered cucking to suck a guy off in front of a girl who constantly shows hostility toward the guy being sucked off. If she was actually showing her true feelings openly, because tsundere plus what you revealed above, and Nodoka knew about them, then yeah, but she shows the opposite almost full time and the few times she doesn't she's showing herself to be neutral at best. I could see it as Nodoka making a move on a guy who is clearly open to her and apparently not taken by Yumi, however, and I could see this as the sexual harassment it is without even considering it cucking Yumi.

Again with Noriko, Ami wasn't giving him a choice. Saying no to a girl like Ami is possibly a death sentence later plus an immediate forced...well, I'm not even sure it would have stopped where it did if he had said no, in fact, she probably would have taken the opportunity to go further if she had to take the lead because he refused her advances. Taking an action, even knowing someone is there, without a choice isn't cucking. Ami, however, would be cucking Noriko if she knew Noriko was there, but her presence was only revealed part way into the action and both of the others were unaware up to that point.

You more or less just said what Nodoka has been saying, just with an added caveat that he has "good in him" which I dont recall Nodoka ever saying he didn't, so I'm not sure why you'd say she's wrong.

Nodoka's whole thing is wanting the real Sensei:
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There's a reason Sensei is secretly envious of her, while considering her an ideal version of himself:
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Sensei is similar to a Nodoka that is cowardly and delusional in a way.

Hence, why he's using Nodoka as an outlet for the feelings he hides from everyone else:
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Nodoka is someone just like him:
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Honestly, I find it a little hilarious how Nodoka seems to be demonized when Sensei could be seen as a much worse, more experienced, and much more cowardly version of her, except, you know, twice her age with a cock. Sensei makes her look good in comparison imo.
They both get demonized for their respective actions and both rightfully so. It doesn't really matter which one is worse, both would be jailed for what they have done in real life, they are both the morally worst characters in the game, yes, even Otoha beats them and she's a known willing cheater who does nothing to hold up her end of a relationship and treats her lovers like they don't even exist, like complete garbage, or like everything is their fault, possibly all of the above combined. You don't really need a ranking once two or more people go into criminal territory, they both get the same thing out of it when caught. Yes, Nodoka is morally better than Sensei, but that doesn't make her good.
 

DeSkel15

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It's not grooming to help them, the other cases yeah, but there was no apparent grooming or even sex based motive behind the specific actions I mentioned. The majority of his actions, yes, they would have a sex based motive and would be grooming because they are working toward his goal of fucking them and blatantly so for anyone other than the girls he's trying not to broadcast this motive to.

However, when even he questions why he does something and he's helping a girl who isn't going to get any closer to opening her legs for him by being helped finding a job or a girl who isn't going to open her legs because he was there as emotional support when she got rejected or was depressed, then either he's insane by definition in that he's trying the same thing over and over expecting a different result or he's not expecting what he knows he's not getting from these actions.

An ulterior motive also has to be a result expected by the person who has it other than the outcome they are helping to achieve, such as finding Yumi a job, that in itself would be disqualified as an ulterior motive because that is the outcome both of the two characters involved are expecting. For this case, he would have to be expecting Yumi or Rin to give him something in return for both of the above inline spoilered cases that is not Yumi getting a job and Rin getting through her emotional rough patch, but he shows no signs he was doing them expecting anything in return for those specific actions. Throughout the story, the majority of his actions do have one very specific expected result, sex with a girl, and that would indeed be an ulterior motive but that is seemingly absent in both of the above cases.

As far as Nodoka, not sure how it would be considered cucking to suck a guy off in front of a girl who constantly shows hostility toward the guy being sucked off. If she was actually showing her true feelings openly, because tsundere plus what you revealed above, and Nodoka knew about them, then yeah, but she shows the opposite almost full time and the few times she doesn't she's showing herself to be neutral at best. I could see it as Nodoka making a move on a guy who is clearly open to her and apparently not taken by Yumi, however, and I could see this as the sexual harassment it is without even considering it cucking Yumi.

Again with Noriko, Ami wasn't giving him a choice. Saying no to a girl like Ami is possibly a death sentence later plus an immediate forced...well, I'm not even sure it would have stopped where it did if he had said no, in fact, she probably would have taken the opportunity to go further if she had to take the lead because he refused her advances. Taking an action, even knowing someone is there, without a choice isn't cucking. Ami, however, would be cucking Noriko if she knew Noriko was there, but her presence was only revealed part way into the action and both of the others were unaware up to that point.


They both get demonized for their respective actions and both rightfully so. It doesn't really matter which one is worse, both would be jailed for what they have done in real life, they are both the morally worst characters in the game, yes, even Otoha beats them and she's a known willing cheater who does nothing to hold up her end of a relationship and treats her lovers like they don't even exist, like complete garbage, or like everything is their fault, possibly all of the above combined. You don't really need a ranking once two or more people go into criminal territory, they both get the same thing out of it when caught. Yes, Nodoka is morally better than Sensei, but that doesn't make her good.
It is grooming when the goal is fucking them. Affection points, mate.

Honestly, I thought Sensei being insane by the repetition thing was a given. He does continue to do stuff expecting different outcomes at times. His life is very repetitive.

Nevertheless, his grooming definitely worked on Yumi and Rin. Yumi literally gave him the opportunity to do something to her, after he helped her:
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He just fucked up with the Nodoka stuff before going for the kill, and Rin's more or less open for business whenever he wants her:
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There's just a girlfriend in the way, and Otoha hasn't been groomed enough yet.

Sensei definitely expected that helping them would lead to him fucking them:
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There's unquestionably an ulterior motive here.

Yumi also does like Sensei. She's tsundere. Nodoka did know, and that's why she did it. Yumi got cucked.

Ami is a little girl who Sensei has literally sent to her room when he wanted. Hell, she's even giving him space because he asked for some, and has straight up admitted she'd kill herself if he died. This point is just ridiculous. Sensei definitely had a choice and he chose to face fuck his niece infront of a girl that loves him. Ami was trying to cuck Maya though for cucking her. Noriko only got caught in the crossfire here, because Sensei's a slut.

Of course it matters who's worse, and "You don't really need a ranking once two or more people go into criminal territory", doesnt make any sense. Saying a word wrong can make you a criminal, but according to that statement, they might as well be a mass murderer, as it doesn't matter once you "go into criminal territory". I'd also put the likes of Kirin, and Yumi as worse than Nodoka. Not as bad as Sensei though.
 
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AgumenticR

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He would if he wanted his other partners like Chika to not find out and stop having sex with him. He's a slut, and a smart one. He's not trying to end up with less sex.
Not only we see internal dialogue that contradicts that reasoning, it doesn't even make sense. He'd be at worst exchanging one girl for several others, and that isn't likely. Moreover, it couldn't be a reason for changing the sexual relationships he already in.
Sekai actually seemed to care more about Sensei than he does for a few of these girls he's fucking, tbh.
Yeah, and that kind of care was so destructive it scarred him for life. Understandably, he feels rather hesitant to try and care for anyone else with education like that.
Nah, if he really didn't want to indulge in them, he wouldn't indulge in them. The feeling bad part has nothing to do with the desires themselves, it's about how they make him look to others and himself.
If he wanted to indulge without feeling bad, he would simply not feel bad. He instead wants to not want to indulge, and feels bad because he can't, one way or another.
 
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