Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.41.0] [Selebus]

[vehemental]

That's where i disagree here. I don't recall seeing him butthurt about stagnating. He was making 10k/month then following the patreon dumbfuckery he had to start from scratch with SubscribeStar. He was butthurt about making less than he used to.

I'm talking about his behavior right now. He made it back to 10k a while ago, and it was even earlier than you think because a number of people bought Annual Passes. He obviously thought he would keep growing on Patreon, and now he thinks he should keep growing on SS.

That really give me a vibe of "i got back to where i was and i'm happy about it" and not so much "i need more, MORE *drools*"

It doesn't give any vibe at all. The "I need more" part comes from his current rabid fixation on destroying this thread because he sees it as a barrier to his success instead of seeing it as the biggest single source of his patrons.

 

[Black Raven]

I'm talking about his behavior right now. He made it back to 10k a while ago, and it was even earlier than you think because a number of people bought Annual Passes. He obviously thought he would keep growing on Patreon, and now he thinks he should keep growing on SS.

I mean of course he'd like to keep growing as much as possible, doesn't mean he actually expect he'll ever reach 63k.
(it's quite likely he feels like he deserves it more than Summertime Saga though, i'll give you that)

It doesn't give any vibe at all. The "I need more" part comes from his current rabid fixation on destroying this thread because he sees it as a barrier to his success instead of seeing it as the biggest single source of his patrons.

F95 was definitely a huge factor in building up his playerbase and subs but as of right now it has a negative impact on the game. Selebus has been losing subs because of the instant leaks and did the CP as a countermeasure, hoping they would fall under rule 7 and therefore would not be allowed here.

So again, he's mad about his subs count going down, not stagnating.

 

[Throwing Pumpkins]

*Snip*

F95 was definitely a huge factor in building up his playerbase and subs but as of right now it has a negative impact on the game. Selebus has been losing subs because of the instant leaks and did the CP as a countermeasure, hoping they would fall under rule 7 and therefore would not be allowed here.

So again, he's mad about his subs count going down, not stagnating.

How do we know that fast leaks are a result of patron loss? I'm a subscriber because I want his game to continue, and the leaks have been irrelevant to me. I have, however, left the Discord because of the behavior of his community and mod team. I've also seen people citing his own behavior as well as that of the mod team and community for no longer supporting him. Granted, it's a small sample size, as I certainly don't know everyone that has unsubbbed, but I don't think we can just conclude that F95 is responsible, especially since it has always been a factor affecting the game.

That said, I don't personally have any problems with Selebus myself, all of our interactions have been very pleasant, and he has always been understanding and patient with me, but there have definitely been complaints about his behavior from others as of late. It's pretty easy to miss outside of the sub-communities surrounding his game, though.

 

[vehemental]

F95 was definitely a huge factor in building up his playerbase and subs but as of right now it has a negative impact on the game. Selebus has been losing subs because of the instant leaks and did the CP as a countermeasure, hoping they would fall under rule 7 and therefore would not be allowed here.

So again, he's mad about his subs count going down, not stagnating.

You just posted the announcement about him making it back to 10k a few months ago, and he's at 10k right now. That's literally stagnation, he's not losing subs.

Moreover, let's take his "40% of his subs came from F95" stat at face value and assume that's the current situation - for this thread to actually have a truly negative effect on the game, it would have had to have lost that 40% of its current subs and more. Do you understand now? All of the revenue the subs from this site generated him in the past would have to be wiped out too. And out of all the subs that didn't come from F95, some of them signed up because of the actions of someone who found it through here, who then referred it to that person or who posted it to a website for them to find. All of that influence and more has to be wiped away as well. None of that is happening.

Every single one of his subs decides every month whether they want to continue or not - maintaining his current sub count isn't a trivial matter. So maybe he's just not growing but his long time subs are staying, but I think the more likely situation is that he IS growing (perhaps attracting a different audience with the... "CP") but losing some of his long time subs at the same time because of his behavior.

 

[Black Raven]

How do we know that fast leaks are a result of patron loss?

Well we can't know for sure, i'm mostly basing this on claims by Selebus, after all. There was a time when the timing of the leaks were inconsistent, sometimes it was super fast, sometimes it only got leaked a few days before public release. And according to Sel it makes a difference on the subs number.

but I don't think we can just conclude that F95 is responsible, especially since it has always been a factor affecting the game.

I'm not claiming that F95 is the only reason for the subs to go down, just that at this point in time F95's impact on LiL's subs is negative.

 

[Black Raven]

You just posted the announcement about him making it back to 10k a few months ago, and he's at 10k right now. That's literally stagnation, he's not losing subs.

I think he went down and then back up again thanks to the CP.

(perhaps attracting a different audience with the... "CP")

I don't know about the CP bringing a new public...I mean have you seen Ami, Sana or Miku ? Sure they're high schoolers but, you know. Pretty sure that public was already there. The loli tag was always there as far as i know. Also a lot of the people that are playing LiL are not doing so for the lewds and stuff but for the story. If one just wants to jerk off there are many many games that are better suited than LiL.

Moreover, let's take his "40% of his subs came from F95" stat at face value and assume that's the current situation - for this thread to actually have a truly negative effect on the game, it would have had to have lost that 40% of its current subs and more. Do you understand now? All of the revenue the subs from this site generated him in the past would have to be wiped out too. That just isn't happening.

Not what i'm saying. I agree that if you factor in all the money that Selebus made thanks to F95 historically it will take many months for the overall impact to become negative. Doesn't disprove the current impact being negative.

 

[vehemental]

I don't know about the CP bringing a new public...I mean have you seen Ami, Sana or Miku ? Sure they're high schoolers but, you know. Pretty sure that public was already there. The loli tag was always there as far as i know. Also a lot of the people that are playing LiL are not doing so for the lewds and stuff but for the story. If one just wants to jerk off there are many many games that are better suited than LiL.

I dunno man, I think there's a pretty big difference between even Sana and the shit that's been in those packages.

Not what i'm saying. I agree that if you factor in all the money that Selebus made thanks to F95 historically it will take many months for the overall impact to become negative. Doesn't disprove the current impact being negative.

I don't know what imaginary or arbitrary metrics you're using to "prove" it, but to me, the current impact is that at least 40% of his current subs came from here, and didn't then leave once the content became available.

 

[JohnnyRazer]

So I can't help but think future growth is going to be stunted either way because the game isn't what it used to be, which is going to continue to be blamed on piracy, which is going to continue tensions with this site, which is going to continue to leak into the game and continue to make the situation worse in a neverending cycle.

Well yeah, that's a mighty possibility unfortunately.

On a side note, I honestly do believe that LiL deserves these 63k more than Summertime Saga, because I played it a few years ago and it's really... mediocre at best. But is it really worth it to go there? Because these are quite different games in a whole lot of aspects, and I think the audience limit that LiL can cater to is not that big to begin with.

 

[Black Raven]

I dunno man, I think there's a pretty big difference between even Sana and the shit that's been in those packages.

Hmm, maybe. There is a difference, sure...I'm just not sure how big it really is.

I don't know what imaginary or arbitrary metrics you're using to "prove" it, but to me, the current impact is that at least 40% of his current subs came from here, and didn't then leave once the content became available.

Well the way i see it is if tomorrow this thread is deleted and LiL is banned from F95 then Selebus will hardly lose anything. The new people that discover the game today on F95 have little incentive to actually subscribe considering they get (almost) everything at the same time as the subs. Also Sel is already earning more than enough to work on the game full time so that's not a reason to sub either. The bad blood between F95 and Sel may also deter some people.

On the flip side, the continuing existence of this thread may cause people to reconsider their subscription for the same reasons.

So yeah basically i'm arguing that even though X% of the current subs are subs thanks to F95 they are not staying subs thanks to F95 and therefore from Selebus' point of view this site has outlived its usefulness.

 

[alex2011]

Hmm, maybe. There is a difference, sure...I'm just not sure how big it really is.



Well the way i see it is if tomorrow this thread is deleted and LiL is banned from F95 then Selebus will hardly lose anything. The new people that discover the game today on F95 have little incentive to actually subscribe considering they get (almost) everything at the same time as the subs. Also Sel is already earning more than enough to work on the game full time so that's not a reason to sub either. The bad blood between F95 and Sel may also deter some people.

On the flip side, the continuing existence of this thread may cause people to reconsider their subscription for the same reasons.

So yeah basically i'm arguing that even though X% of the current subs are subs thanks to F95 they are not staying subs thanks to F95 and therefore from Selebus' point of view this site has outlived its usefulness.

I don't want to tell the mods what to do, so if they are watching, I hope they don't take this the wrong way, but I do believe at least a ban as a user is warranted in this case if not a ban of the game itself going off of the actions taken against the last developer to antagonize the site in some way. Of course, doing so would actually be playing right into his hands this time since he basically wants it gone from any piracy source, unlike the aforementioned other incident.

It actually makes me feel kind of dirty despite only just finding out a few minutes ago. To say I don't approve of these actions is a severe understatement, I regret everything that happened even though I wasn't involved. We should be coexisting at worst, not essentially waging war.

 

[Bingoogus]

Snip

Welcome back Alex, your absence has been quite noticeable these last few months.

 

[akselx]

I don't want to tell the mods what to do, so if they are watching, I hope they don't take this the wrong way, but I do believe at least a ban as a user is warranted in this case if not a ban of the game itself going off of the actions taken against the last developer to antagonize the site in some way.

U mean the leaker? I don't think it's one person. This situation isn't exactly unique to this thread, there are plenty of pretty big games that routinely get leaked within a day. It's too many people to ban and it seems like most developers recognize this. There're at least two devs that liked mods post about situation, they pay attention. I don't see what realistically can be done about this situation other than asking people that leak into this thread to leak them...a bit later.

 

[akselx]

I don't know about the CP bringing a new public...I mean have you seen Ami, Sana or Miku ? Sure they're high schoolers but, you know. Pretty sure that public was already there. The loli tag was always there as far as i know. Also a lot of the people that are playing LiL are not doing so for the lewds and stuff but for the story. If one just wants to jerk off there are many many games that are better suited than LiL.

I dunno man, I think there's a pretty big difference between even Sana and the shit that's been in those packages.

U two are talking about differend kind of "CP's", lol.

 

[alex2011]

Welcome back Alex, your absence has been quite noticeable these last few months.

Took a break from the entire site, I just wish this wasn't what I came back to.

U mean the leaker? I don't think it's one person. This situation isn't exactly unique to this thread, there are plenty of pretty big games that routinely get leaked within a day. It's too many people to ban and it seems like most developers recognize this. There're at least two devs that liked mods post about situation, they pay attention. I don't see what realistically can be done about this situation other than asking people that leak into this thread to leak them...a bit later.

No, I am referring to the antics pulled against the thread itself, Selebus incited patrons to descend on the thread to mass report the game's care packages for rule 7 and even offered a discount on merch (the comments in question are undeniably not patron only content, it affects non-patrons directly. The mod called redknight was screencapped saying not to do this and the capture was posted with the offer of a severe discount on merch). Caught him red handed on this one, there is no denying who was involved. The last time I saw something where the developer was inciting antagonizing the site, the developer got his user account banned and all official links were removed, though he was also caught manipulating reviews in that case. That case is why I was thinking a user ban might be warranted here, but the mods would know better.

 

[akselx]

Took a break from the entire site, I just wish this wasn't what I came back to.

Hm. Are u...perhaps...working on the game yourself?

No, I am referring to the antics pulled against the thread itself, he incited patrons to descend on the thread to mass report the game's care packages for rule 7 and even offered a discount on merch (the comments in question are undeniably not patron only content, it affects non-patrons directly. The mod called redknight was screencapped saying not to do this and the capture was posted with the offer of a severe discount on merch). Caught him red handed on this one, there is no denying who was involved. The last time I saw something where the developer was inciting antagonizing the site, the developer got his user account banned and all official links were removed, though he was also caught manipulating reviews in that case. That case is why I was thinking a ban might be warranted here, but the mods would know better.

Gotcha, I misunderstood you.

 

[alex2011]

Hm. Are u...perhaps...working on the game yourself?

Gotcha, I misunderstood you.

I am not, it was mainly a health break plus I got real busy near the end of the year IRL.

 

[KnowNoHope]

Well yeah, that's a mighty possibility unfortunately.

On a side note, I honestly do believe that LiL deserves these 63k more than Summertime Saga, because I played it a few years ago and it's really... mediocre at best. But is it really worth it to go there? Because these are quite different games in a whole lot of aspects, and I think the audience limit that LiL can cater to is not that big to begin with.

i mean summertime saga is its own thing that required actual artists and animations and actual coding compared to a game made with premade assets, MS paint, and images taken from google with the watermarks taken off.
not saying selebus deserves less money than summertime saga ... but it makes sense why he makes less and is borderline insane to think it could compete to that level, especially with the drama orientated spectacle selebus prone to starting
I will admit i dont know much about the work that goes into either project... but one looks like it takes a lot more effort and manpower than the other

 

[JohnnyRazer]

i mean summertime saga is its own thing that required actual artists and animations and actual coding compared to a game made with premade assets, MS paint, and images taken from google with the watermarks taken off.
not saying selebus deserves less money than summertime saga ... but it makes sense why he makes less and is borderline insane to think it could compete to that level, especially with the drama orientated spectacle selebsus prone to starting

Yeah, that's more or less what I was trying to say. On the raw production value SS probably deserves at least a part of it's earnings (and I don't mean to downplay Sel's dedication and talent), but I still don't like a lot in it (from primitive plot and characters to absolutely generic porn section imo). Likewise, a man have every right not to like LiL with it's pretentiousness and "philosophy" and I can somewhat understand him. Tastes differ, and I don't want to sound like some kind of elitist, but as I see it, the majority of people would prefer Summertime Saga type of content, rather than LiL, because well... majority. So if it's not a joke about this goal, than I don't understand what (and how) Selebus hopes to achieve, because all this ruckus is definetely about money.

 

[Pers0nas]

This has been a rollercoaster... I want this thread to go back to talking about cute girls and puzzles :[

 

[JohnnyRazer]

Not sure if the mods deleted the messages, but guess we got too passionate, apologies. Probably there's not much point in this dispute other than having some fun, since everyone will stand by their opinions.