Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.43.0] [Selebus]

[crustlord12]

I have a feeling that of all the girls, Io will be the most traumatic first-fuck. Don't see that going well

I know this isn't really all that impressive, but I totally called it. Felt sick to my stomach but I think that Sel did a good job with that.

Bro, this second event of Io, in my opinion, doesn't make any narrative sense because how the hell is her story going to develop now? In my opinion, it would make a lot more sense to leave there than for this to happen, especially knowing her trauma, it doesn't make sense, Selly thinks you can cure a victim of sexual abuse with sex. This event only served to screw Io and Akira's heads even more and make many more people stop wanting 100% of the game. There's a quote from Akira and Maya that says, “Sometimes forcing people to do things they're not comfortable with is the best way to get them forward.” BUT THIS DOESN'T WORK FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKE IO, so it doesn't make any sense, I swear I'm trying to understand Selly, but it seems like he got lost in this part because if he tries to make Io start liking sex just for the sake of it , it's going to be the most pointless thing in the world, so I'm still trying to understand what crazy plan Selly is trying to make for Io's story because what he did in this event doesn't make sense for things to progress in the future

I think that along with what people have already said about how Akira just handles things the only way he knows how (with his massive penis), Akira is just doing something absolutely wrong and we know it. We're being forced along for the ride on his descent into the dark path. The shit he's doing right now isn't supposed to redeem him, but further condemn him. At least, that's how I'm viewing it.

To be honest I am yet to play the last 3 or 4 updates prior to this due to work and other commitments but seeing what some have said regarding events in this latest update and how they feel incongruous with the narritive thus far, is it not possible that the memories/consequences of this event could be... deleted (for want of a better term) at the next reset anyway?

I feel like I remember there being precedent for that earlier in the story.

I do think this is how we'll get back to talking to Io eventually. They'll talk at the Halloween party, it will probably get worse, then the reset will happen and Io won't understand why Akira refuses to talk to her, or is extremely uncomfortable when he does (unless the dark route goes into full swing here and she has full memory of it)

btw, we've talked a lot about the Io stuff already, but what happened still was, at the very least, not as bad as what could have happened. What no one has said anything about yet is regarding Imani, and I personally was not expecting that fucked up ass story.

Like, I was uncomfortable about the Io scene obviously, but somehow the Imani stuff made me feel worse? (maybe cause I was anticipating the Io stuff but not the Imani one), and it's sort of unexpected because not only we didn't watch it happen, but she even skipped the most disgusting parts, and I still was fucked in the head after it.

I don't even know what to say about it. Maybe there's nothing to say after all. I really liked the update overall, but now that I think about it there's a lot of fucked up extremely dark shit in it.

Edit:

Spoiler: explicit details

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Did she get set on fire? I thought she got her burns from boiling water. But yeah, wow, her brother watched that too? Like wtaf.

I wonder if that Noriko scene was just Nao being Nao or if it's setup for Noriko being the one to restore Maya Prime... and maybe the experience will lead to her to the roof and joining the RAS...

I can 100% see Noriko selflessly sacrificing herself to replace Maya Prime in that beyond realm, and then MP just being absolutely furious with Noriko being the one to swap places with her, because she just wants to hate Noriko.

Hm, some random thoughts on this update:

Spoiler

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May have missed a few things. Been busy lately and probably will be for a bit, so I'll have to check it out again at some other time.

I think Nodoka has some weird ability to see this extra plane, it has to be the same one Nao has shown us in a prior secret event. If Akira has seen it, surely Nodoka could have as well? Just that she couldn't comprehend it? I saw some theory(ish thing) earlier about how there were two personalities in Nodoka (paraphrasing here) but what if that second personality is someone dead that can see that higher plane and somehow can communicate it to Nodoka?

I think the purpose of Io's scene (at which it was quite successful) was to cause a reaction of visceral disgust in the player (and hopefully Akira) in regards to the way Akira uses sex. Akira resorts to sexual contact both as a defense mechanism and as a crutch to avoid connecting on a more emotional level. On some intellectual level he knows this is a morally wrong, but up until now he's never had a reason to actually believe that it's wrong. Every time he starts a sexual relationship with a girl, it does successfully lead to them growing closer and even to an emotional connection that he doesn't have to work for. Even his most heinous actions (with Ayane/Kirin, Nodoka/Yumi, Molly, Ami/Noriko) involve him being a more passive participant, and have generally just led to him growing even closer to his victims in the long term.

I think Selebus is trying to beat us over the head with just how destructive Akira's mindset is. As such, I will be absolutely shocked if this leads to things improving for Io, even in the long run, since that would undermine the scene's narrative purpose. I expect this is the first step on Io's path to becoming absolutely broken, if she isn't there already. I'm expecting to see an Io with "wishing well eyes" sometime soon.

I do have concerns as well for what Sel's aversion to branching narrative means for the future, but not as much for Io's story. I think he can handle that with a bunch of missed events until the point where the branches are brought together again when she is inevitably reset. I'm sure it will lead to a less cohesive narrative if you decided to leave, but for me that's fine. Sel is telling a linear story, but the fact that choices exist in the first place is integral to his narrative method.

What does concern me is how Sensei's character development and the overall plot can progress if he decides to leave. I think he needs to break someone with "consensual" sex in order to move forward. And with all of SekaiDolia's talk of breaking people in order to fix them, it seems like Sensei needs to observe someone being broken and reset as the first step towards what I'm assuming the dark path is going to be. So I just don't see how the plot can move forward after leaving, even with missed events and a lack of narrative cohesion.


How are people interpreting Ami's scene with Uta? At first I thought that Ami was probably acting in order to deflect having to talk about Sensei and Uta's picture, but then Uta leaves the room and it seems like Ami did actually want something to happen. I guess it makes character sense for her to be secretly bi, she wouldn't have wanted to admit the possibility that she could ever be sexually interested in anyone other than Sensei.


I need to mull over the supernatural stuff in the update more before I post about it, but I want to say one thing for now: I've seen some people commenting on Yasu telling Sensei that he needs to swim, but I'm like 99% sure that's actually SekaiDolia speaking. I'm not sure if Yasu and Touka are even physically present in "The Art of Drowning" with the way that they dissappear, it might all be in Sensei's head. If they are there, Sekai is talking directly through Yasu the same way she does through Kaori (which was probably enabled by Yasu touching Kaori at the end of the previous event).

I really agree with the analysis of the Io scene. It viscerally disgusted me to watch but it was very interesting to see how the two characters approached the same problem in the absolute worst way.

All that being said, great update. Loved the scenes with Wakana and Osako, as someone who's been in a dying relationship like that before it definitely made struck a chord. And then engaging in drunken groupsex? That relationship is definitely healthy and will absolutely continue on 100% for sure. I kind of think we'll end up fucking Wakana before Imani at this rate, and that Imani will find out and just be like "are you JOKING ME???".

Kirins scene was kinda meh, and I was expecting Makoto to walk in on Maki taking it up the ass. Otherwise the scene was kinda unimportant? Damn H scenes getting in the way of my plot.

Where did Touka go while we talked with Yasu? Futabas parents are definitely dead, right? Something is going on there.

I liked Utas scenes as well, and was surprised at how she approached Akira having the picture.

And on that note, for fucks sakes can we please just fuck Rin yet? We didn't even get a picture message from her. I am glad I traded with Otoha, even if I felt guilty about doing so in the moment. I'm sure shit will inevitably hit the fan with Niki though when she finds out we traded hers. It feels like something is going to happen soon with how that scene ended, though. Preferably including Haruka.

 

[SadCoomer]

I'm confused at how the events work this time around. I have the shampoo thing cockblocking me from the dorms, but futaba's events are not crossed out, so I can still technically access them somehow? Also I can't trigger Maki event, I tried the porn shop every day of the week buy got nothing,

Anyway, the Io event was well done in its own way, really managed to capture the same feeling of the start of the game, goes to show that the dev still got it in him. The rest is just the usual meh

 

[Comiies]

I'm confused at how the events work this time around. I have the shampoo thing cockblocking me from the dorms, but futaba's events are not crossed out, so I can still technically access them somehow? Also I can't trigger Maki event, I tried the porn shop every day of the week buy got nothing,

Anyway, the Io event was well done in its own way, really managed to capture the same feeling of the start of the game, goes to show that the dev still got it in him. The rest is just the usual meh

Just use the URM 4head.You got cucked by sel so you now have to deal with it

 

[gazgiz]

Technically he had consensual sex with the Haruka, Maki and Sara... actually I thought there would be more, I guess we can now add Imani to the list too.

Have we? We've absolutely manipulated Haruka.

Sensei continually wonders "why" it's so easy to sleep with all these woman. That no matter what action he undertakes, they can't help but justify it. We know that powers can take over other characters and make them do things against their will.

Even with Maki, one of the things that confused me about Chapter 4 was suddenly I could go get a BJ again at the Porn shop, but I don't recall or remember and event where Maki told us that she stopped her celibacy kick.

 

[gazgiz]

Obviously an Io sex scene was never going to go well but the way the game is written railroads you into it. Future patches are going to follow up on the rape scene and ignore the other option. So It just feels like it's there because Selebus was pissed people are going for 100% rather than making their own choices and wanted to shock people out of the completionist mentality, wouldn't be the first time he was mindbroken by fan reaction.

Well of course it does. The gods Gods broke us. As the narrative stands those choices were always an illusion. The game has narrative has been absolutely clear that "choice" is an illusion. The game actively (and rightly) hates us for playing it. We get "Game Over" screens all the time.

Every "choice" before chapter 4 was to make you question why the fuck you were playing a porn game and skipping sex scenes.

 

[Comiies]

Have we? We've absolutely manipulated Haruka.

Sensei continually wonders "why" it's so easy to sleep with all these woman. That no matter what action he undertakes, they can't help but justify it. We know that powers can take over other characters and make them do things against their will.

Even with Maki, one of the things that confused me about Chapter 4 was suddenly I could go get a BJ again at the Porn shop, but I don't recall or remember and event where Maki told us that she stopped her celibacy kick.

Manipulated Haruka is an exaggeration.In the beginning we took advantage of her yes but after her breakdown she herself said that she knows we are a shit person,but its ok since she is the same.She willingly put her self in danger and she accepted the risk by her own will.Hell akira said so himself that she could have always walked away.In short,there was manipulatin in the beginning but Later on Haruka just dropper her mask and embraced her most basic impulses.

 

[gazgiz]

Manipulated Haruka is an exaggeration.In the beginning we took advantage of her yes but after her breakdown she herself said that she knows we are a shit person,but its ok since she is the same.She willingly put her self in danger and she accepted the risk by her own will.Hell akira said so himself that she could have always walked away.In short,there was manipulatin in the beginning but Later on Haruka just dropper her mask and embraced her most basic impulses.

It's clearly not an exaggeration because you have to admit it twice in your paragraph. But more importantly than that...

You don't think it's a little...odd...that all of the women we meet, under all of their specific trauma, are horny little freaks? We have watched outside forces control and distort personalities. Hell the MC *continually* brings up how easy it is to sleep with anybody he wants, and questions why everybody is drawn to him like a magnet.

We've also had a character that knows everything we've done flat out say that at no point in time in this game have we witnessed consensual sex. After a scene where we can't accept that we raped Molly....who, somehow, convinces herself she wasn't raped.

 

[ccxvidonaferens]

You don't think it's a little...odd...that all of the women we meet, under all of their specific trauma, are horny little freaks?

Narrative Determinism?

 

[Perniciousducks]

Technically he had consensual sex with the Haruka, Maki and Sara... actually I thought there would be more, I guess we can now add Imani to the list too.

Niki as well

 

[gazgiz]

Narrative Determinism?

I mean yea, in a "Porn Game" there is a convoluted reason why you get to sleep with everybody. It's the genre.

However, LiL, is clearly not a porn game, and the MC is aware of how "wrong" it is. In fact, all the characters have a vague sense this isn't right. It's why the game continually begs you to stop playing it.

 

[gazgiz]

Niki as well

Would Niki have still slept with us, if we weren't lying about fucking a bunch of underage girls? Including her sister?

Because if the answer is "no" we have manipulated her.

Again, we have a character state outright that we have never seen a consensual sex act in this game.

However that is before we fuck (best girl) Nodoka. So that may be the first one.

 

[Riolol]

Would Niki have still slept with us, if we weren't lying about fucking a bunch of underage girls? Including her sister?

Because if the answer is "no" we have manipulated her.

Again, we have a character state outright that we have never seen a consensual sex act in this game.

However that is before we fuck (best girl) Nodoka. So that may be the first one.

She would (probably) not have consented if she knew all the facts, therefore she did not consent? That's a hell of a reach. I thought you were going to say none of the sex was consensual because Akira wasn't fully in control or something, that would have been better than this.

 

[gazgiz]

She would (probably) not have consented if she knew all the facts, therefore she did not consent? That's a hell of a reach. I thought you were going to say none of the sex was consensual because Akira wasn't fully in control or something, that would have been better than this.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you lie up and down to a woman to sleep with them, you have committed a "rape."

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.

And while I think Niki is very down bad, I think she would not have fucked us if she new we were fucking Ami. But if you went "good uncle," her sister grinding on top of us topless would probably have done it.

 

[Moonflare]

I know this isn't really all that impressive, but I totally called it. Felt sick to my stomach but I think that Sel did a good job with that.

I think that along with what people have already said about how Akira just handles things the only way he knows how (with his massive penis), Akira is just doing something absolutely wrong and we know it. We're being forced along for the ride on his descent into the dark path. The shit he's doing right now isn't supposed to redeem him, but further condemn him. At least, that's how I'm viewing it.

I do think this is how we'll get back to talking to Io eventually. They'll talk at the Halloween party, it will probably get worse, then the reset will happen and Io won't understand why Akira refuses to talk to her, or is extremely uncomfortable when he does (unless the dark route goes into full swing here and she has full memory of it)

Did she get set on fire? I thought she got her burns from boiling water. But yeah, wow, her brother watched that too? Like wtaf.

I really agree with the analysis of the Io scene. It viscerally disgusted me to watch but it was very interesting to see how the two characters approached the same problem in the absolute worst way.

Edit: Wow, this became a very big post - so, basically, I go into Akira's side of things for stomachache. There is no point to be made here, it is merely a look at his side of things for what happened.

Regarding Imani, yeah, you're right, it was boiling water not being set on fire. I meant to say that, I was just too emotional at the time. Regarding the Io stuff, it is obviously very disturbing to watch, but it isn't as bad as it may seem imo. Many people have hinted at this in their analysis, and I guess it falls to me to be the first one saying it proper.

Let's actually review what happened. Io was terrified that Akira found out about her being abused. When she finds out he hasn't, they go to a restaurant but she asks to leave because she's reminded of her mom. Then they go to her bedroom. Io attacks Ami. Akira tries to show how family is important by using her aunt as an example. This further spirals out of control because it triggers Io again in the same night when Akira calls her aunt a mom. So she attacks Akira being a parent. Which leads to resistence, and for her to disclose that she was raped my her mom. Then she attacks him by comparing him to her mom because of the Uta picture, which is saying that he's just another rapist that can't control himself around 5 year olds. By this point, everything has gone completely off the rails on Io's part. This is very relevant, hold on to that. Then Io says "you know what, just fuck me." Akira was not the lead at all for this sequence of events, it was Io.

Now, to "Stomachache" proper. Io starts vomiting every single thing about her being raped on Akira. And still putting him on the spot as if he was her mom. Because, by this point, she has no idea about him also being a victim. He tries to tell her he was raped as well, and she shoots him down because he's using "flowery" words. Then she keeps pressing him to fuck her and calls him not wanting to simply not wanting to get a second hand sex doll. I'm trying to keep this short, but this is very relevant:

Spoiler: stomachache

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Akira wants to leave. Akira doesn't want to have to deal with any of this. It was not his intention for anything to happen on any step leading to this. Things just keep spiraling out of control and Io keeps forcing points down his throat at every turn. "so you're like my mom, so you won't fuck me because I'm used goods, so you'll abandon me now that you know the truth".

They reveal to eachother details of their traumas, Akira tells the first person in his life about Sekai and his trauma, straight up:

Spoiler: stomachache

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This is just how desperate Akira is here. Akira talks to Io about Sekai and aknowledges the reality of their situation instead of the fantasy around her. So here's the thing:

Spoiler: stomachache

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For as disgusting as it is to watch it take place, this is not a dark path or a Molly situation imo, this is a very broken person trying his best to deal with an impossible situation. Akira tries to defuse everything a million times, then he goes to the extreme of revealing everything to Io in order to defuse it.

Spoiler: stomachache

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Now, is leaving the sane option here? Yes, 100%. But as the scene takes place, Akira becomes Sekai in his mannerisms, smiles and things he says. He's reliving his trauma from her perspective, just as Io is reliving hers. Then what happens? Akira finds out that it doesn't work. In this short amount of time he's forced to say out loud that Sekai raped him, that he can't understand why he loves her, that he might suffer from stockholm, and now that he simply is not Sekai - he tried to emulate her and it doesn't fucking work, he's not thrilled about it, he's disgusted to be in that position. He apologises, he can't do it - Io has to reassure him multiple times. And from Io's perspective, it is not the same either. She anticipates this happening again and she wonders if he truly was serious about making her enjoy it.

All in all, again, it's totally understandable to want to miss this, or to think that what Akira did was the wrong call. But he's also a victim in what happened, he most certainly didn't anticipate going into Io's room, telling about how he's fucked up in the head from loving someone that raped him, then going into emulating said person because the girl in front of him considers him not having sex with her as him abandoning her as used goods after she revealed she was raped by her mother.

Akira goes home and can't sleep alone. This was tragic for Io, absolutely. But it was also for him. I have no point with all of this, I just felt that we could benefit from having a look at his side for all of this as well.

 

[Algorist]

I dunno... considering I had already missed 38 events before this update, 'going home' during Io's event was a no-brainer (I did see how it went through a quicksave, and Ew. Although it's well written.)

If this comes to bite me in the ass (i.e., a bad ending if you didn't stay true to Selebus' vision or something of the sort) later, so be it. I don't think that'll be the case, though.

I'm not concerned about the 'right' way to play the game, being mostly satisfied with my Sensei's path. And yes... I acknowledge it might be an illusion of choice. A taste of this was Bad Uncle being forced during a reset. But there are differences, and I'm more comfortable this way.

Anyway, please let there be more 'Ami flirting with girls' content for the love of HOPE. That Ami-Uta moment was really great. Hopefully, something more comes from it (I know it won't).

 

[Moonflare]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but if you lie up and down to a woman to sleep with them, you have committed a "rape."

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.

And while I think Niki is very down bad, I think she would not have fucked us if she new we were fucking Ami. But if you went "good uncle," her sister grinding on top of us topless would probably have done it.

That seems to be a misguided interpretation of the definition. By what you're saying, if someone has a girlfriend and has sex with another person, and that second person didn't know they had a girlfriend, it was rape. This makes no sense.

Secondly, there is no such thing as no manipulation. If you woo someone to have sex with them, that's manipulation. The presence of manipulation does not necessarily remove consent. Consent is something that an adult of a sane enough mind is able to give. Did Akira drug Haruka to have sex with her? no. Did he blackmail her? also no. Wasn't she an adult of sound enough mind? yes. Then it is consensual.

One could say it is a dick move to hit on a married woman. But at the end of the day it was her choice to have sex with him, he didn't force her. Every adult relationship in LiL was consensual. Every non-adult was not, simply because by law it isn't possible for a non-adult to give consent (which includes Nodoka).

As to everyone being supernaturally forced to want to have sex with Akira, well, that's possible. But if that's the case then there's really no point in talking about consent in the first place. What would it even matter if Akira manipulated Haruka and to which extent if there's a supernatural entity that robs her of her ability to choose not to have sex with him?

 

[gazgiz]

As to everyone being supernaturally forced to want to have sex with Akira, well, that's possible. But if that's the case then there's really no point in talking about consent in the first place. What would it even matter if Akira manipulated Haruka and to which extent if there's a supernatural entity that robs her of her ability to choose not to have sex with him?

While my other argument is weaker, and I think there is very much a difference between selling the best version of yourself (wooing) and declining to tell somebody that you're molesting her sister, I'm going to drop that line cuz it's the least interesting.

The above is the meat of what I think the game is getting at. Because, there very much is still consent to talk about in the above case. I'm leaving for a trip soon, so I don't have the time to do it right now, but how many times so far as the game tried to get you to stop playing? It tries to shame you to stop. It wonders why you won't stop. It begs you stop. It condemns you for not stopping. It warns you that we aren't close to hitting rock bottom of degradation yet.

That's not even mentioning all the "Ending" screens we get. Little off ramps for the player.

Maybe it's because I come from a performance background, but I think we often times overly use literary crit to talk about games but theater crit is just as applicable, if you consider "the player" as "the actor." In theater crit there is an idea of audience culpability. That the catharsis of the tragedy comes from the audiences participation in the acts committed on stage.

And that participation comes from their silence. They are free to interrupt and condemn the performance at any time.

I don't really know how else to read this game but a study in this mentality. We all downloaded this because we wanted to masturbate. Our introduction is our nieces vagina cutting us. We all choose to stay even though character after character tells us they feel like they are trapped.

That's what I think that line about "never having had consensual sex" is about.

 

[Dc345]

Spoiler: Naked Pajama Party

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[Pedro4545454]

I don't really know how else to read this game but a study in this mentality. We all downloaded this because we wanted to masturbate. Our introduction is our nieces vagina cutting us. We all choose to stay even though character after character tells us they feel like they are trapped.

Just to make it clear that I didn't download this game for that reason, I already had basic knowledge about what this game was and the main reason I keep playing it is to see the end of the story from Akira,Maya, Yumi and now Io. At no point in this game after the first day did I see it as a porn game.

 

[Riolol]

Spoiler: Naked Pajama Party

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Next update looks great