Ren'Py Lessons in Love [v0.45.0] [Selebus]

[fdsasdf_p]

Wonder if how Futaba's Fish Eyes ended would be somehow integrated into the later story.

If Nodoka wasn't a part of that abrupt adjustment, she may catch onto Futaba suddenly returning to her merry self, and proceed to figuring out that something isn't right. The likelihood, however, is probably pretty low though as this game has the tendency of conveniently gliding through abrupt moments like these.

Despite the fact that this time it'd be the psychic level observant Nodoka who has the chance to spot any incoherence, I have a hard time imaging she considering Futaba's U-turned mood being any suspicious when she can't even understand why Futaba was crying at the end of Pg.99. Nodoka sure was left mildly surprised afterwards, but I am not sure if that's enough to kick her off her smartass high horse.
(scratch that it's definitely not enough; the narcissistic genius probably would just say something like "ah now you finally stopped being irrationally upset and understood what I was going for! Let's get marred Futaba and move to Yuritopia!")

 

[DeSkel15]

But you're always assuming that everything Sensei does, is with ulterior motives, yeah, he wants to take clothes of most of his students, apparently.
That doesn't mean that everything he does, he does it with that mind

It's not really an assumption when he says things like this:

Spoiler

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And admits that everyone winds up in his fantasies:

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Sensei having ulterior motives is more of an Inference. Him not having ulterior motives is an assumption, and an optimistic one, tbh.

 

[DeSkel15]

You sure have an archive with a lot of SS all well organized by name don't you?

Probably could be better organized, tbh. But yeah, I have quite a few images saved from all the conversations I have on here, and try to have some others saved up that might come in handy later for future conversations.

Unfortunately, even I struggle to recall everything in this game so it's somewhat necessary to keep myself in check and at least make sure I know what I'm talking about.

 

[DSasha]

I mean he was still a killer, and no one actually "chooses" their life. We are all products of our environment. Since he was intending to keep his sister safe, I don't see him as pure evil, but it's still selfish to take the lives of others to prolong the death of one, no matter who or what they are. I'd like to think a benevolent god would think similar, albeit would hopefully have better knowledge of things than me.

And here I was thinking that in the story the guy was so easy to empathize with haha.

Of course, this assumes that god wouldn't be jacking or jilling off at the idea of this scenario happening, if not directly responsible for it, and actually gave a shit.

Yeah, that's actually how imagine god

That scenario could actually fit Sensei in a way, maybe, except he'd be raping others instead of killing, and likely wouldn't be aware of why, considering his black outs and memory issues. HOPE being both the "local guerrilla" and "god" in that scenario which is ironic now that I think about it, and Maya maybe being the sister.

Well, I never tried to create an scenario that could fit in Sensei story, just bring in some examples of how judging if someone's being is good or... not good?

 

[DeSkel15]

Wonder if how Futaba's Fish Eyes ended would be somehow integrated into the later story.

If Nodoka wasn't a part of that abrupt adjustment, she may catch onto Futaba suddenly returning to her merry self, and proceed to figuring out that something isn't right. The likelihood, however, is probably pretty low though as this game has the tendency of conveniently gliding through abrupt moments like these.

Despite the fact that this time it'd be the psychic level observant Nodoka who has the chance to spot any incoherence, I have a hard time imaging she considering Futaba's U-turned mood being any suspicious when she can't even understand why Futaba was crying at the end of Pg.99. She sure was left mildly surprised, but I am not sure if that's enough kick her off her smartass high horse.
(scratch that it's definitely not enough; the narcissistic genius probably would just say something like "ah now you finally stopped being irrationally upset and understood what I was going for! Let's get marred Futaba and move to Yuritopia!")

I'm definitely expecting some remorse from Nodoka. I'll be disappointed in her if she simply ignores her last conversation with Futaba.

 

[DSasha]

It's not really an assumption when he says things like this:

Spoiler

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And admits that everyone winds up in his fantasies:

Spoiler

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Sensei having ulterior motives is more of an Inference. Him not having ulterior motives is an assumption, and an optimistic one, tbh.

Yeah I definitely have a very different way of seeing and interpreting things, because I don't think we're perceiving Senesei's words the same way haha, but I already explained before how I understand this kind of speeches from sensei, so I'm not going to repeat myself again here.

But well, it's probably me being very optimistic once again.

I think it's a little hard for me not to empathize with literally anyone or anything, it's like, I always try to put myself in other's shoes, or looking for the reason behind the words/actions of somebody.

 

[DSasha]

it's probably me being very optimistic once again

which is very ironic because I am actually very pessimistic in my daily basis.

 

[DeSkel15]

And here I was thinking that in the story the guy was so easy to empathize with haha.

Yeah, that's actually how imagine god

Well, I never tried to create an scenario that could fit in Sensei story, just bring in some examples of how judging if someone's being is good or... not good?

I mean I do feel sorry for the guy, but I also feel sorry for the ones who died at his hands. The local guerrilla can be turned inside out and forced to live forever, alone, in an infinite desert full of invincible fire ants though. I'd be a wrathful god probably, lmao.

I feel like this game fits the conversation topic as there are gods, and many different views of what's right, wrong, and how Sensei, the MC, is seen by others. Noriko who's official weakness is compassion sees him as a good person who's just been through a lot. Meanwhile there's Nodoka who seems to see him as a horrible person who pretends otherwise. Someone like her and Yumi who isn't worthy of a happy ending:

Spoiler

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Yeah I definitely have a very different way of seeing and interpreting things, because I don't think we're perceiving Senesei's words the same way haha, but I already explained before how I understand this kind of speeches from sensei, so I'm not going to repeat myself again here.

But well, it's probably me being very optimistic once again.

I think it's a little hard for me not to empathize with literally anyone or anything, it's like, I always try to put myself in other's shoes, or looking for the reason behind the words/actions of somebody.

Random, but If I were to compare us to the characters, you probably see things more like Noriko, while I see things more like Nodoka.

I also can definitely empathize with a few characters in this game, especially Yumi, but, tbh, that's just more reason to expect better from them for me.

 

[DSasha]

Noriko who's official weakness is compassion sees him as a good person who's just been through a lot.

I am definitely Noriko haha

 

[alex2011]

Those examples do have bad, and multiple reasons though (as I went over), so it seems pretty flawed.

Anyone can do "good things", but that doesn't mean that they do them for a "good reason". Hence my initial point.

I'm not seeing a bad reason for those specific cases. Out of the four examples I named in the inline spoilers, only the third and fourth seem to have a bad reason behind his actions. If I remember correctly, even Sensei was questioning why he was doing some of the things he did without a bad reason behind doing them.

I'm with you, I like characters that I hate because of how they're written. It feels good to dislike a character's personality, and not because they were poorly written.

Neither will any of our hard drives. I wonder if Sel will eventually break the game up into chapter downloads because it's getting ridiculous.

I highly doubt it, he would have done that by now if he had planned on it. It's already at the point where a chapter split would be effective from an exclusively storage based standpoint, so his usual method would have already had this happening if he planned on it at all. My best guess, we're going to maintain the non-split game we have now.

If I somehow hope to have a chance to fuck someone, then whatever I do for that person has ulterior motives? Can't I maybe fantasize with someone and at the same time wanting to genuinely help em?


Can't it be this Sensei just trying to give some good advice? I mean, I consider myself the most honest and transparent person I know lol, but sometimes I have said something similar to other people for believing me so easy, it's like: "You shold not believe this fast in anybody, not even me".

Yes, this is absolutely possible. A person, or character in LiL for that matter, can think one thing and do another even if that action seems to go against what they are thinking and doesn't seem to have any benefit toward the original thought even after the fact. Sensei could help a girl without it needing to be connected to his overall plan to fuck every last one of them just because he wants to help them for whatever reason.

Just for the record this is what I was trying to say before, just, with less words, and even better explained i guess lol



This is funny because when I started this I wasn't even thinking about intentions or acts being good or bad.

And at the same time is boring because I think you guys went for the easy part.

I was thinking more about a peasant 5 year child living in the countryside of a third world cuntry being being kidnapped and raised by the local guerrilla, being threatened with killing his little sister if he doesn't follow orders, having to live a life that he did not choose and did not have the option to choose, and then grow up in that environment, become friends with his companions, kill at first out of obligation, and then out of conviction, but a conviction that some would say it was his choice and others that was because that was the only world he could ever know because at the end of the day the only love he ever knew were there, and suddenly one day a bullet hits him in the head and ends his life at 18 years old, the life of another unknown guerrilla ends, just after that same life has taken that of three others, and despite doing very bad things, with, some would say, very bad intents, how that god would judge that man?


But even that is easy.

How about that crazy guy that one day kidnapped, raped and then murdered your older sister when she was coming home from college?
That guy raised in a commoner class home, with a depressive father that killed himself when he were 5 and his maniac and deranged mother that couldn't bear her loss, decided to blame his only son, and then abuse him physically and finally sexually as well, eleven years of abuse until one day she decides to take her own life, leaving him alone in the world. Feeling guilt, hatred, emptiness, trying to stay sane until that day when, feeling like he was going to explode, he decided to let out all his anger with the first person he saw on the street.
That boy who dreamed of one day being a doctor and helping others, would he go to heaven?

No, their actions are morally bad in both of your examples and even their intent would be morally bad in these examples. These are both examples of a pretty clear case of bad actions taken for bad reasons even if there is no other choice.

If the actions taken by the first had been against the guerillas, things would be different and there would at least be a possibility of his actions being morally good. Even killing, if targeted at the right people under circumstances where there can be no other justice like taking said people in alive to face trial or where attempting to take them alive puts innocent lives at risk, is a good action. However, your example sounds like it is targeted at the innocent, which is what makes it bad.

The second one can never be good in either action or intent. Kidnapping, rape, and killing those who bear no immediate danger to innocent lives or that could be taken in alive to face trial are all bad actions regardless of intent.

You can do whatever you want. But yeah, if you are helping someone just because you think it'll increase your chances of getting laid (like Sensei) and you didn't reveal that to them, that's definitely an ulterior motive. Not that much different than trying to pay for sex, except there's no actual agreement here. (Cue all the guys whining about girls not sucking them off for being "nice".)

On the other hand, helping because you want to help them and expecting nothing in return would mean there isn't an ulterior motive.

Also, Sensei is giving good advice. Trusting him is a bad idea (he's talking about himself and what he's done specifically here, not just anybody). Keep in mind, this is after he let Nodoka humiliate Yumi and optionally cuck her by sucking him off in front of her. He later does similar to Noriko optionally. Sensei seems to virtually always put his lust above others in the end. Girls sadly crying, at least seems to help him restrain himself around 15 year olds, though.

It's only an ulterior motive if that was the motivation behind the action. In most cases with Sensei, yes, this is the motive. In a select few, it cannot clearly be said that it is.

As far as the "cucking," I'm not sure the Nodoka/Yumi one counts, Yumi hasn't shown actual interest despite what we players suspect, and the Noriko one wasn't exactly by choice if it's the case I think of when you bring her up. In that case, Sensei both didn't know she was there because she hid and wasn't returning her advances plus he didn't exactly get the choice to not do it, Ami was involved.

 

[Algorist]

Sensei, or rather Akira, is such an intriguing character to me. A broken man. One who knows what he's doing is abominable; one who feels what he's doing is deplorable; one who loathes what he indulges in while reveling in it. A pitiful man. A pathetic man. An agonized man. A man whose life is his own cross.

He is unmistakably evil, yet his spite for himself is nothing but proof that's not all he is. He has a conscience. He has good in him, too. As all do.

Nodoka is wrong, and Noriko isn't right.

 

[TheOnlyRockSolid]

What program or engine do the devs use to render the images, does anybody know?

 

[Bingoogus]

What program or engine do the devs use to render the images, does anybody know?

Koikatsu Party.

 

[TheOnlyRockSolid]

Koikatsu Party.

As I suspected. Thanks for the confirmation

 

[DeSkel15]

I'm not seeing a bad reason for those specific cases. Out of the four examples I named in the inline spoilers, only the third and fourth seem to have a bad reason behind his actions. If I remember correctly, even Sensei was questioning why he was doing some of the things he did without a bad reason behind doing them.


I highly doubt it, he would have done that by now if he had planned on it. It's already at the point where a chapter split would be effective from an exclusively storage based standpoint, so his usual method would have already had this happening if he planned on it at all. My best guess, we're going to maintain the non-split game we have now.


Yes, this is absolutely possible. A person, or character in LiL for that matter, can think one thing and do another even if that action seems to go against what they are thinking and doesn't seem to have any benefit toward the original thought even after the fact. Sensei could help a girl without it needing to be connected to his overall plan to fuck every last one of them just because he wants to help them for whatever reason.


No, their actions are morally bad in both of your examples and even their intent would be morally bad in these examples. These are both examples of a pretty clear case of bad actions taken for bad reasons even if there is no other choice.

If the actions taken by the first had been against the guerillas, things would be different and there would at least be a possibility of his actions being morally good. Even killing, if targeted at the right people under circumstances where there can be no other justice like taking said people in alive to face trial or where attempting to take them alive puts innocent lives at risk, is a good action. However, your example sounds like it is targeted at the innocent, which is what makes it bad.

The second one can never be good in either action or intent. Kidnapping, rape, and killing those who bear no immediate danger to innocent lives or that could be taken in alive to face trial are all bad actions regardless of intent.


It's only an ulterior motive if that was the motivation behind the action. In most cases with Sensei, yes, this is the motive. In a select few, it cannot clearly be said that it is.

As far as the "cucking," I'm not sure the Nodoka/Yumi one counts, Yumi hasn't shown actual interest despite what we players suspect, and the Noriko one wasn't exactly by choice if it's the case I think of when you bring her up. In that case, Sensei both didn't know she was there because she hid and wasn't returning her advances plus he didn't exactly get the choice to not do it, Ami was involved.

If grooming a teenager into trusting you, so that you can fuck them, and making yourself feel better for the things you've already done to them, aren't "bad reasons", then I guess that's just how you see things.

An ulterior motive is any motive that isn't revealed. Any unrevealed reason more than simply wanting to help a person when you're helping them is an ulterior motive by definition.

Also Yumi has likely crushed on Sensei since before the start, and there's plenty of inferences. It's also been revealed she masturbates to him:

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The main reason Nodoka did that to Yumi was to cuck her. Hence why she made sure not to give Yumi the option of blowing Sensei. Nodoka believed Yumi would have taken that third option, and as Nodoka said, she wanted Yumi to have nothing.

Sensei also knew Noriko was there and still facefucked another girl (Ami) in front of her, knowing Noriko wouldn't like it. He definitely chose to do this instead of stopping her. He did do similar to Noriko with Niki back in the day, but back then, yeah he didn't know she was actually there. I'm also thinking a similar scenario happened with Maya, but that needs more intel.

 

[DeSkel15]

Sensei, or rather Akira, is such an intriguing character to me. A broken man. One who knows what he's doing is abominable; one who feels what he's doing is deplorable; one who loathes what he indulges in while reveling in it. A pitiful man. A pathetic man. An agonized man. A man whose life is his own cross.

He is unmistakably evil, yet his spite for himself is nothing but proof that's not all he is. He has a conscience. He has good in him, too. As all do.

Nodoka is wrong, and Noriko isn't right.

You more or less just said what Nodoka has been saying, just with an added caveat that he has "good in him" which I dont recall Nodoka ever saying he didn't, so I'm not sure why you'd say she's wrong.

Nodoka's whole thing is wanting the real Sensei:

Spoiler

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There's a reason Sensei is secretly envious of her, while considering her an ideal version of himself:

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Sensei is similar to a Nodoka that is cowardly and delusional in a way.

Hence, why he's using Nodoka as an outlet for the feelings he hides from everyone else:

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Nodoka is someone just like him:

Spoiler

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Honestly, I find it a little hilarious how Nodoka seems to be demonized when Sensei could be seen as a much worse, more experienced, and much more cowardly version of her, except, you know, twice her age with a cock. Sensei makes her look good in comparison imo.

 

[fdsasdf_p]

Sensei, or rather Akira, is such an intriguing character to me. A broken man. One who knows what he's doing is abominable; one who feels what he's doing is deplorable; one who loathes what he indulges in while reveling in it. A pitiful man. A pathetic man. An agonized man. A man whose life is his own cross.

He is unmistakably evil, yet his spite for himself is nothing but proof that's not all he is. He has a conscience. He has good in him, too. As all do.

Nodoka is wrong, and Noriko isn't right.

Maya posted this isn’t it

 

[DeSkel15]

Maya posted this isn’t it

Lol, Maya knows what's up:

Spoiler

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She just seems to have a fetish for it.

 

[AgumenticR]

Honestly, I find it a little hilarious how Nodoka seems to be demonized when Sensei could be seen as a much worse, more experienced, and much more cowardly version of her, except, you know, twice her age with a cock. Sensei makes her look good in comparison imo.

He attempts to care in other ways, though. It is yet shallow - perhaps immature would be a better way to put it - has a lot of trouble growing and defaults to his usual entirely self-interested dynamics when push comes to shove for now, but the attempts are there. He is cowardly because he doesn't want to indulge in the kind of care he and Sekai had for each other, but also doesn't know anything else and is not sure he is even capable of anything else. Nodoka, on the other hand, seemingly feels no hesitation to embrace the exact kind of behavior Sekai cultivated, which is certainly less cowardly, but I would struggle to call it better.

 

[DeSkel15]

He attempts to care in other ways, though. It is yet shallow - perhaps immature would be a better way to put it - has a lot of trouble growing and defaults to his usual entirely self-interested dynamics when push comes to shove for now, but the attempts are there. He is cowardly because he doesn't want to indulge in the kind of care he and Sekai had for each other, but also doesn't know anything else and is not sure he is even capable of anything else. Nodoka, on the other hand, seemingly feels no hesitation to embrace the exact kind of behavior Sekai cultivated, which is certainly less cowardly, but I would struggle to call it better.

Sensei is more cowardly, not because he cares about others, but because he cares about how others will see him. His attempts at caring are more like excuses he creates to ignore how he really is, and masks to keep others from seeing what's underneath. If he actually cared, there would be no need to even attempt to try.

Nodoka definitely embraces the horrible parts of herself, but even she seems to underestimate how horrible Sensei actually is:

Spoiler

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To be frank, I'd argue that Nodoka actually cares more about others than Sensei does:

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She just doesn't delude herself about who she is like Sensei. It's probably why he thinks Nodoka doesn't feel anything. The idea of someone being honest with themselves seems impossible to exist otherwise, to him. That's just how cowardly he is.

Sensei definitely wants to indulge in his desires btw. He just doesn't want to feel bad about it, hence stuff like this:

Spoiler

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"I'm sorry" he says to someone who couldn't possibly know what he's actually done... Coward.