naughtyroad

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Jan 8, 2019
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Hmm, I think we're losing some nuance in the message here. I made a post in which I said that there's a chance the chapter that is still coming is going to the last one if support keeps dwindling like it has been over the past year, but there's no decision on that yet, and if it doesn't come to that, we might be looking at three more chapters for it to be done.

I'm getting the idea that some of you lot are under the impression that it's already over at this moment, which is not the case.
 

UncleNanard

I am to music what Kanye West is to adult games.
Game Developer
Jul 1, 2017
1,514
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I feel like I've started a negative wave X)
I was talking about steam. I think the dev would have become a millionaire if Steam had published his game.
Then also because I thought, since I hadn't followed the funding story, that the dev had already made good progress on the update :(

Is it indiscreet to ask how much the dev would want per month to continue developing the game with 2 story + epilogue?

It's none of my business, but I know for a fact that with taxes and fees, the $1 tier no longer makes any profit. If you consider the 8-12% share of Patreon plus taxes, the $1 tier almost costs money. (If the developer is in Europe, there's a new law that forces developers to declare Patreon income on taxes, in fact, it is patreon who is obliged to declare dev income to the state, so it can no longer be hidden. So it's between 24% and 60% of revenue in the European country I know of.)

I don't know if he has many patrons at $1, but he should explain the situation to them and propose moving to $2 or $3 for the first tier (actually, with inflation, the first tier should be $5 to be profitable, but inflation also affects the patrons :'( )

And if some $1 patrons refuse, maybe still create a $3 tier for those who are okay with it?

If that means 2 stories + an epilogue, I would happily pay $3.
 

naughtyroad

Active Member
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Game Developer
Jan 8, 2019
952
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I feel like I've started a negative wave X)
I was talking about steam. I think the dev would have become a millionaire if Steam had published his game.
Then also because I thought, since I hadn't followed the funding story, that the dev had already made good progress on the update :(

Is it indiscreet to ask how much the dev would want per month to continue developing the game with 2 story + epilogue?

It's none of my business, but I know for a fact that with taxes and fees, the $1 tier no longer makes any profit. If you consider the 8-12% share of Patreon plus taxes, the $1 tier almost costs money. (If the developer is in Europe, there's a new law that forces developers to declare Patreon income on taxes, in fact, it is patreon who is obliged to declare dev income to the state, so it can no longer be hidden. So it's between 24% and 60% of revenue in the European country I know of.)

I don't know if he has many patrons at $1, but he should explain the situation to them and propose moving to $2 or $3 for the first tier (actually, with inflation, the first tier should be $5 to be profitable, but inflation also affects the patrons :'( )

And if some $1 patrons refuse, maybe still create a $3 tier for those who are okay with it?

If that means 2 stories + an epilogue, I would happily pay $3.
A little while back I did a little calculation and figured out that Light off my Life nets a little under (local) minimum wage on an hourly base, and support has steadily declined since.
Let me add to that that I never started this with the idea it'd make me rich, and I'd be making VNs in one way or another even if I was doing it for free. But it'd be nice to make a decent buck off it, and if people are done with LomL, it makes sense to wrap that project up in a way that provides a decent ending and some closure, and move on to a new project.

As to taxes, yeah, I'm based in Europe, and the tax man takes half (because it's my second job, income wise, but my first job timewise, at around 45/50 hrs a week).

Wrt the $1 tier, that isn't really efficient, that's true, as the payment processor fees that are taken are higher for those smaller payments (e.g. <= USD 3,-).

So if there are any readers that support multiple devs at $1: it's much more efficient to rotate your support, and donate the total amount of support to one dev one month, and another one the next month, etc.

The $1 tier doesn't actually cost money, as payment, platform, and other fees are mostly percentages, but it's not the most efficient one.

But to get back to the use of having a 1 dollar tier, it mainly exists as a gateway to the higher tiers, so in that regard, it serves a purpose even if there's more cost overhead.

Maybe you could consider trying to publish this game on GOG? I'd buy it at least. This is one of my favourite games.
GOG curates what comes on their platform up front (unlike steam, where anyone can basically create a page in the store), and I've sent a submission but got no response, which I'm led to believe means they declined.
 

about_that

New Member
Dec 4, 2017
11
10
A little while back I did a little calculation and figured out that Light off my Life nets a little under (local) minimum wage on an hourly base, and support has steadily declined since.
Let me add to that that I never started this with the idea it'd make me rich, and I'd be making VNs in one way or another even if I was doing it for free. But it'd be nice to make a decent buck off it, and if people are done with LomL, it makes sense to wrap that project up in a way that provides a decent ending and some closure, and move on to a new project.

As to taxes, yeah, I'm based in Europe, and the tax man takes half (because it's my second job, income wise, but my first job timewise, at around 45/50 hrs a week).

Wrt the $1 tier, that isn't really efficient, that's true, as the payment processor fees that are taken are higher for those smaller payments (e.g. <= USD 3,-).

So if there are any readers that support multiple devs at $1: it's much more efficient to rotate your support, and donate the total amount of support to one dev one month, and another one the next month, etc.

The $1 tier doesn't actually cost money, as payment, platform, and other fees are mostly percentages, but it's not the most efficient one.

But to get back to the use of having a 1 dollar tier, it mainly exists as a gateway to the higher tiers, so in that regard, it serves a purpose even if there's more cost overhead.



GOG curates what comes on their platform up front (unlike steam, where anyone can basically create a page in the store), and I've sent a submission but got no response, which I'm led to believe means they declined.
Well I did my part and subbed, I wouldn't want this game (or a few others on this site) to end prematurely or be abandoned. I wishlisted this on Steam before that went bitter. The girls don't have a mainstream look so to say, but the writing is superb and the whole game is quite unique in many regards.
 

FormerlyknownasOlheden

Well-Known Member
Donor
May 20, 2020
1,010
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So if there are any readers that support multiple devs at $1: it's much more efficient to rotate your support, and donate the total amount of support to one dev one month, and another one the next month, etc.

The $1 tier doesn't actually cost money, as payment, platform, and other fees are mostly percentages, but it's not the most efficient one.

But to get back to the use of having a 1 dollar tier, it mainly exists as a gateway to the higher tiers, so in that regard, it serves a purpose even if there's more cost overhead.



GOG curates what comes on their platform up front (unlike steam, where anyone can basically create a page in the store), and I've sent a submission but got no response, which I'm led to believe means they declined.
Huh, didn’t think of that, but fairly obvious once you mention it. I’m one of those people who support a bunch of devs at a very low level (used to be 20+ devs at one point but abones and completions have brought it down to 13), but it would probably make more sense to support more actively, like a month or two in a year with a bigger sum. The problem then would be 1) missing out on the regular communication with the devs and 2) keeping track of whose turn it is …
 

pablo_max

Newbie
Oct 25, 2017
76
81
While I understand the dev's predicament of dwindling support, I also think it's not too reasonable to expect folks to support it financially every month given that the updates seem to come every 1.5 to 2 years. That is a long time to give someone money for something you may or may not ever see come to fruition.
 

karumi56

Member
Oct 7, 2019
285
825
While I understand the dev's predicament of dwindling support, I also think it's not too reasonable to expect folks to support it financially every month given that the updates seem to come every 1.5 to 2 years. That is a long time to give someone money for something you may or may not ever see come to fruition.
That's honestly probably one of the bigger reasons. The last three releases have seen the development time for each grow significantly, to the point for chapter 7 it was exceptionally long (more than 18 months). I would imagine it's hard to maintain momentum and fan base enthusiasm under those conditions.
 

Lord_Momentum

Newbie
Sep 16, 2018
24
24
Hmm, I think we're losing some nuance in the message here. I made a post in which I said that there's a chance the chapter that is still coming is going to the last one if support keeps dwindling like it has been over the past year, but there's no decision on that yet, and if it doesn't come to that, we might be looking at three more chapters for it to be done.

I'm getting the idea that some of you lot are under the impression that it's already over at this moment, which is not the case.
I get what you mean, but I dont think support will magically increase over the next period of time. I mean as you said before support tends to increase the most when there is an update. Just looking at the progress image on discord tells me about a quarter of the update has been finished over five months of time.

Just a simple extrapolation means the next update will be out in about 15 months. Now I get that game development isnt linear and this is not to throw shade at you as a deveoper, but i would expect that payments will only decrease over this time span.

This is one of the best games on this platform and Updates have been very sizable and high quality, but I think not cutting it into smaller chunks has really been detrimantal for you. Why would anyone pay a monthly fee for patreon, when they could just wait for the update to come out and then subscribe?
 

naughtyroad

Active Member
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Jan 8, 2019
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Right, some rambling responses to some of the above. Apologies in advance for the bits I go off the rails a bit.

That's honestly probably one of the bigger reasons. The last three releases have seen the development time for each grow significantly, to the point for chapter 7 it was exceptionally long (more than 18 months). I would imagine it's hard to maintain momentum and fan base enthusiasm under those conditions.
And there is a good reason for that too, and it is mainly because in the last three releases, measured in content, dwarf the preceding chapters.

Chapters 1-4 contained ~3,800 images.
Chapter 5 adds ~3,100, bringing it to ~6,900 (doubling everything that came before)
Chapter 6 adds ~5,700, bringing it to ~12,600 (almost doubling everything that came before again)
Chapter 7 adds ~10,100, bringing it to ~23,700 (almost doubling everything that came before again)

The main reason for this explosion is that people started to have actual sex. Whereas chapters 1-3 still teased how the MC was blue-balled, and from chapter 3 on some smaller sex scenes were added, once we got into some serious business with the main love interests, as well as having to up the stakes with the existing ones, the effort just exponentially increased.

And while seems reasonable that development time will have some impact in momentum and fan base enthusiasm, I propose that the alternative of not having sex with love interests, or have them reduced in scope to about half a dozen stills also doesn't help to create fans.

(...)
This is one of the best games on this platform and Updates have been very sizable and high quality, but I think not cutting it into smaller chunks has really been detrimantal for you. (...)
You make a few good points, but I want to zoom in on this one and the next one in particular.

One of the things that sets Light of my Life apart is that it releases large chunks of content at a time, that can be enjoyed as a whole, and have an arch that can be appreciated in a way that you can't if it's released piecemeal in little chunks and parts,. Many of which would hardly have any sexual content, mind.
That's a release model that works for a fun fuck-fest, and there's plenty of those that are an absolute blast. It's just not what Light of my Life is.

I'm the first one to admit that maybe I'm a bit of an stubborn idiot in this regard, and I have a poor business sense. Or rather, that I don't really put much value in the business side of the process.
But I'm also not a great believer in giving people what they want in general, because frankly l don't think people have the faintest idea what they want, and what they say they want will turn out to be something they don't much care for if they actually get it.
Instead, I try giving people what I feel is as good a thing as I can make it, and I hope that people will say "I really wanted that" once they get it.

So the short of it is that either Light of my Life is released in large chunks that deliver an experience that I think is good, or not at all. Because I'm convinced that if I just give them a month of work (or two, or three) at a time, it may be what they say they want, but it'll turn them off of the whole thing pretty fast.

(...) Why would anyone pay a monthly fee for Patreon, when they could just wait for the update to come out and then subscribe?
I hope the answer is "because they want to see this game being made", and for a small fraction of players (♥), it actually is. It's not really a transactional thing, but an abstract notion about supporting the development so one day, in a pretty intangible process, there'll be more game, for everyone, even those that didn't pay.
Sure enough, that is a hard concept to convey, and conversion rates from players to supporters are absolutely as atrocious as you'd expect at the best of times. But it's really the only way to have something like this be made, the alternative being the old-school model of small studios searching for investors who are in it for the ROI.
 

TigerWolfe

Engaged Member
Oct 19, 2022
2,559
4,856
Right, some rambling responses to some of the above. Apologies in advance for the bits I go off the rails a bit.



And there is a good reason for that too, and it is mainly because in the last three releases, measured in content, dwarf the preceding chapters.

Chapters 1-4 contained ~3,800 images.
Chapter 5 adds ~3,100, bringing it to ~6,900 (doubling everything that came before)
Chapter 6 adds ~5,700, bringing it to ~12,600 (almost doubling everything that came before again)
Chapter 7 adds ~10,100, bringing it to ~23,700 (almost doubling everything that came before again)

The main reason for this explosion is that people started to have actual sex. Whereas chapters 1-3 still teased how the MC was blue-balled, and from chapter 3 on some smaller sex scenes were added, once we got into some serious business with the main love interests, as well as having to up the stakes with the existing ones, the effort just exponentially increased.

And while seems reasonable that development time will have some impact in momentum and fan base enthusiasm, I propose that the alternative of not having sex with love interests, or have them reduced in scope to about half a dozen stills also doesn't help to create fans.



You make a few good points, but I want to zoom in on this one and the next one in particular.

One of the things that sets Light of my Life apart is that it releases large chunks of content at a time, that can be enjoyed as a whole, and have an arch that can be appreciated in a way that you can't if it's released piecemeal in little chunks and parts,. Many of which would hardly have any sexual content, mind.
That's a release model that works for a fun fuck-fest, and there's plenty of those that are an absolute blast. It's just not what Light of my Life is.

I'm the first one to admit that maybe I'm a bit of an stubborn idiot in this regard, and I have a poor business sense. Or rather, that I don't really put much value in the business side of the process.
But I'm also not a great believer in giving people what they want in general, because frankly l don't think people have the faintest idea what they want, and what they say they want will turn out to be something they don't much care for if they actually get it.
Instead, I try giving people what I feel is as good a thing as I can make it, and I hope that people will say "I really wanted that" once they get it.

So the short of it is that either Light of my Life is released in large chunks that deliver an experience that I think is good, or not at all. Because I'm convinced that if I just give them a month of work (or two, or three) at a time, it may be what they say they want, but it'll turn them off of the whole thing pretty fast.



I hope the answer is "because they want to see this game being made", and for a small fraction of players (♥), it actually is. It's not really a transactional thing, but an abstract notion about supporting the development so one day, in a pretty intangible process, there'll be more game, for everyone, even those that didn't pay.
Sure enough, that is a hard concept to convey, and conversion rates from players to supporters are absolutely as atrocious as you'd expect at the best of times. But it's really the only way to have something like this be made, the alternative being the old-school model of small studios searching for investors who are in it for the ROI.
Almost no one on f95zone understands what patronage is. It's super frustrating, so many people wrongly think that it's a purchase agreement for a good, but that is explicitly not what patreon or patronage in general is. I hope your support increases as your work definitely warrants it.
 

DA22

Devoted Member
Jan 10, 2018
8,056
16,621
Almost no one on f95zone understands what patronage is. It's super frustrating, so many people wrongly think that it's a purchase agreement for a good, but that is explicitly not what patreon or patronage in general is. I hope your support increases as your work definitely warrants it.
Part of the problem with that is other devs though that are actually selling or trying to sell their updates, paywall part of their updates and so on without using even options then like at least charging per update instead of per month. Muddying the water. Personally I much prefer the way naughty does it.
 

Miðgarðsormr

Engaged Member
Oct 1, 2017
2,472
6,085
What do people want?

Well the short answer to that is the obvious one."They want sex scenes"
What people however fail to realize is that the build up is what sells those sex scenes. We all can watch porn in mere seconds and forget the faces, the actors and everything involved in mere seconds after watching it.

That does not help build a fanbase, business or aquire money in the long run. And we are in for the long run.

The longer and more correct answer is "People are dumb as a brick"

People claim they want something but the moment they get that something they lose all interest in it because they got what they wanted and not want something else. That can be more, something else entirely, the same thing again but wrapped in different colours (FIFA, Call of Duty etc.)

But what you get once you give in to their wishes and demands is a bunch of ungrateful whining dicks that behave like little spoiled children who bitch and whine about almost everything you do. Thats exhausting, erases your creative flow and your passion hits rock bottom almost instantly.

What happens once this project is done and what is the reputation of naughtyroad till it happens?

So far his reputation is that he doesn't bend to the demands and wishes of others who try to influence his vision to something they want or claim to need. That he releases quality content in terms of renders, coding, writing and characters with more depth than 99% of the games on this board.
Immersion and a believable plot/story that could be used to teach at writing schools.

People do not forget about the characters, story and plot even weeks or years after they played it. Haters gonna hate but they still play it. They still get impatient near a release and they still bombard us and naughty with demands, silly arguments and keep trying to get a foot in the door to maybe... just maybe get a chance to change even the slightest thing in the game. From the beginning till now they had no chance.

The Options are simple from a business point of view.

Option 1 Naughty gives in to the demands. Releases are earlier, with less content. People specualte more, demand more, kill his creativity and passion, burn him out and leave once the project is done to bitch and whine somewhere else. This increases the money flow, the fanbase growth but in the long run loses alot of people cause the quality will suffer, creativity will suffer, workflow will be more stressfull and deadlines will sit in his neck 24/7. Even sleep becomes a luxury as you can't shut off the voice in your head that reminds you of the deadline everytime you try to relax.

Option 2 Naughty reaches out again to companys who can distribute his game. Like GOG, Steam etc. The thing i learned in writing is that No doesn't mean no until you get a written message that states "We have recieved your multiple requests to publish your work but sadly have to inform you that after thoroughly studying your material and after careful consideration, we can offer no place in our portfolio for you! We still wish you the best for your future business endeavours" Which is business language for "Stop sending me shit you fucking muppet"

He also keeps ignoring the demands and whining of people and continues his work as he envisioned it from the start and keeps grinding the hard part of making his hobby a business model that can pay his bills. The hard part of becoming your own boss is not just the work. It is everyone around you or in this case online who try to make you fail. The companies you reach out to for help who crush your dreams with one negative answer after another.


Once this game is done. Really done. Finished and polished. Naughty will be known for making a good story, a good game, in depth characters with believable emotions that people can feel attached to not just brainless bimbos who just yell fucky fucky.
Which is hard, demanding and can burn someone out pretty fast. Nevertheless it is crucial that he finishes it on his terms, his vision and his decisions. Otherwise it will haunt him for the rest of his days that he could not finish it the way he wanted.

I do not care if Steam said no. I do not care if GOG will say no. Someone will say yes and they will make lots of money and he will make lots of money.

How can i be certain? Simple. Big Publisher be it gaming or writing or even movies. Claim they know what people want. Yet they sink millions in movies, games, books and they all act shocked and call the fanbase all kinds of names. They don't know shit anymore. They got to comfortable sitting on their asses counting money and producing one garbage after another. It made money for a time but true Quality will shine through it all sooner or later. We happend to be one of the later ones. Fine by me.

Want some examples?
Game of thrones = Season 1 to 7 David Benoiff and D.B. Weiss followed the books George R.R. Martin wrote almost 1:1 and everyone involved got rich. Season 8 they go off script and write their own stuff despite not knowing shit about writing. Same here. People who don't know shit demand or claim to know better than the one who created everything they love in the first place. If you listen to such people you will shoot yourself in the face... twice. First for listenting to them and secondly for actually believing them.

Cyberpunk 2077 We will create the best game since witcher 3 and GTA V combined. They fail. They listen to investors rather than their staff, overwork their employees, write a story full of plot holes, try to reach insane deadlines and kill every creativity of their staff in the crib. Fail horribly in all aspects. Why? They listen to everyone aside from the people who actually make the fucking game. Investors, Fans, journalists. They live in a fantasy land that completely ignores reality cause they know best. And the people who actually do all the work are completely ignored.

Larian Studios comes around with Baldurs Gate 3 and not only shows what a work of passion without grinding your team half to death can do and not only win every price there is but make millions with it. All because they stay true to their vision and don't give two shits on the haters. Ignore everyone who claims "no one will buy this or play this, this genre is dead, who the actuall fuck plays a game with a combat system that has turns in this day and age?"


Yes it is hard and we do not pretend that once the game is done Naughty suddenly becomes a millionaire but what he can establish here is quite obvious. Future customers and investors will know 5 Things.

1. He does not fold under pressure. To no one. Thats important especially in business deals as everyone is trying to fuck you on the deal. EVERYONE!
2. He knows his shit. Story, Plot, Characters with depth, Coding, Renders. He knows how to make a game 100% on his own. So if a team becomes an option he knows exactly what people he hires need to be capable off and what is important and what isn't.
3. He delivers what he promises. Yes it takes time. Yes it is alot of work. But do you want quality or garbage?
4. He knows how to write on a professional level. Which is alot of work and a demanding one but also showcases the quality of his projects and what to expect. Both for customers/investors and future business partners.
5. He is transparent. Everyone from customers to investors or future business partners know exactly what they will get if they join. Thats worth alot in todays world.


And yes i again wrote way to much but since i got a newborn in my house.. (my wife is at fault) i have to take every second i can to write or sleep. And today is writing day..... well it is night but its her turn :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 
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