Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.10.7 Hotfix] [Innoxia]

[Carl0sDanger]

A couple things that I think would vastly improve the feeling of player agency would be NPCs recognising changes the MC has gone through and options to meaningfully shape the story going forward.

Currently, most NPCs don't react at all to even very radical changes in the MC's appearance, which undercuts the impact of a primary game mechanic. I mean, if the first time you met me I was a human male, the next time you met me I was a Wolfgirl, then a Harpy, then a Foxgirl, then finally a fucking Succubus ... you'd probably mention it.

And as (if) the story progresses, there needs to be opportunities for the MC to choose the "conquer" or "liberate" paths set up when the MC meets Lyssieth. There can't just be one way to approach confronting Lilith's daughters. This is actually supposed to be the main course of the game. Something that's frequently obscured by Inno's fascination with - to stretch a metaphor - fiddling with the place settings.

Of course those things are dependent upon Inno still wanting to make the game she claims to want to make and the ability of the engine to support continued progress. Neither of which are givens.

 

[kenny]

Currently, most NPCs don't react at all to even very radical changes in the MC's appearance, which undercuts the impact of a primary game mechanic. I mean, if the first time you met me I was a human male, the next time you met me I was a Wolfgirl, then a Harpy, then a Foxgirl, then finally a fucking Succubus ... you'd probably mention it.

You can literally buy transformation potions in a shop and the world is populated by amalgamation monstrosities of various animal parts, that's the least logical thing to mention.

 

[noname009]

I'd like to know where mods are published.
Mainly on the discord and several in this forum?

 

[IvoryOwl]

You can literally buy transformation potions in a shop and the world is populated by amalgamation monstrosities of various animal parts, that's the least logical thing to mention.

That's not the point he was trying to make. Yes, there are furries and mixed breeds in the game, but unless your character has morphing abilities (like demons and slimes to a degree) constantly changing your appearance IS an oddity in of itself and it's a complete buzzkill that no NPCs mentions or even acts surprised by it.

Lore-wise, transformation potions are supposed to be somewhat rare and expensive because they require essences to make and the only ones capable of accumulating, extracting and using essences are demons and witches, both of which are rare in this world. Also, the economy in LT is in complete shambles meaning most people aren't exactly swimming in money to be able to afford TFs left and right. Then there are the implications of it; if someone is constantly changing their appearance they are either 1) rich or 2) demons in disguise. Demons are considered the ruling elite in this world, even law enforcers bend themselves backwards to get in their good graces.

Aside from minute, isolated cases, most NPCs don't give a damn when you reveal yourself to be a demon... This means TFs are mostly just flavor for the player and little else. Another prime of example of a feature added to the game with no depth to it.

 

[mrttao]

In other words; what this game lacks is player agency and an alive(or real)world that recognizes, comments and interacts with the player depending on their choices and appearance. Without player agency, you're just an individual, the hero to save the world, the hero without personality, without faults or real character development. Like the whole world is centred around the protagonist and not the protagonist being inside a (believable) world.
Just an observation; most games here lack player agency or it is me? Maybe l set the bar too high but l feel that player agency in games where you (allowed to)make choices should be always present and not surface-level.
And that's only the story department, the gameplay 'player agency' department is a different topic but closely related.

I think you are mixing up terms. Player agency is the ability of the player to make decisions and for them to change things.

A hero without faults that saves the world is perfectly viable route to have. so long as you are allowed to choose between that route and other routes then you have agency.

Also there is only so much agency that can be coded in. As each split point in a major plot is effectively a new and different game.
It is sometimes good for player agency to be localized. For example being able to take different routes for your relationship with waifu number 7, which will have drastic effects on her personality and a few NPCs related to her plotline. But will not have any effect on the major overarching plot.

Actually this game seems to suffer from giving the player too much agency. So much so that the author can not get any appreciable progress as she is too busy adding more and more customization options.

That's not the point he was trying to make. Yes, there are furries and mixed breeds in the game, but unless your character has morphing abilities (like demons and slimes to a degree) constantly changing your appearance IS an oddity in of itself and it's a complete buzzkill that no NPCs mentions or even acts surprised by it.

You ignored the part where stores sell transformation potions.
You can just walk into the mall and it is full of transformation potions.
The local guard captain bought a custom transformation potion that turns the drinker into a wolf bitch. (changing gender and apparent race).
The local tattoo parlor can give you or your slaves magical tattoos that cause transformations
Multiple shop sell clothes enchanted to transform the wearer...

It might be killing your buzz, but your demands are not reasonable. You want NPCs to be surprised and shocked at your transformation but this is totally unrealistic for a world where transformation are so utterly casual and trivial.
It is easier to transform yourself in the world of this game than it is to get a hair dye in the real world.

When was the last time everyone acted shocked at you for dying your hair a different color? Hair dyejob takes several hours to do, while a potion that turns you into a female wolf furry takes seconds to drink and can be bought in the mall

 

[SheepPun]

You ignored the part where stores sell transformation potions.

You ignored the part where the game struggles to keep its lore consistent with the gameplay provided and that, shockingly, other people have other opinions which in turn effect how they feel about things.

Whether the former is a good or bad or eh thing in the case of Lilith's Throne is up to the beholder, because like this is an issue that shows up in other games for varying reasons.

 

[mrttao]

You ignored the part where the game struggles to keep its lore consistent with the gameplay provided and that, shockingly, other people have other opinions which in turn effect how they feel about things.

1. Where in the lore does it say that stores do not sell transformative items casually to anyone with money? All I have seen is that most people are unable to directly harvest essence and instead must buy it in bottles. Which you yourself can fill up and sell for some pitifully small amount of cash (30 flames per bottle)

2. I am not ignoring their different opinion, I am explicitly addressing their different opinion. Specifically by proving it to be an objectively wrong opinion.

Whether that's a good or bad or eh thing in the case of Lilith's Throne is up to the beholder, because like this is an issue that shows up in other games for varying reasons.

Whether it is good or bad is irrelevant to the argument. The argument being on whether NPCs should make a big deal out of you walking to any of a half dozen different stores in town and buying a transformative. Whether it is a transformation cake at the cafe, or a transformation potion at the shop, or a transformation tattoo from the tattoo parlor, or a transformation piercing from the sex shop, or a transformation bondage from the slavers

 

[tehlemon]

A couple things that I think would vastly improve the feeling of player agency would be NPCs recognising changes the MC has gone through and options to meaningfully shape the story going forward.

Currently, most NPCs don't react at all to even very radical changes in the MC's appearance, which undercuts the impact of a primary game mechanic. I mean, if the first time you met me I was a human male, the next time you met me I was a Wolfgirl, then a Harpy, then a Foxgirl, then finally a fucking Succubus ... you'd probably mention it.

And as (if) the story progresses, there needs to be opportunities for the MC to choose the "conquer" or "liberate" paths set up when the MC meets Lyssieth. There can't just be one way to approach confronting Lilith's daughters. This is actually supposed to be the main course of the game. Something that's frequently obscured by Inno's fascination with - to stretch a metaphor - fiddling with the place settings.

Of course those things are dependent upon Inno still wanting to make the game she claims to want to make and the ability of the engine to support continued progress. Neither of which are givens.

If only there were moments in the game that would be absolutely, completely perfect for giving the illusion of player agency by addressing the players accomplishments in the game through NPCs who should already know the player's accomplishments and literally have a scene where you're trying to impressive them with those accomplishments even though they should already know them...

Wait... I think I wrote like a five page wall of text back in... holy fuck Nyan's quest was a year ago? How the fuck was that a year ago? Good god nothing has gotten done in a year. Again.

...uh...

BACK TO THE JOKE!

If only there were really simple ways to make the NPC's react to changes in player appearance. If only the game kept track of basic information like whether the player's sex were known to the NPC which could be reset the moment the player changes their sex so that the NPC would react to changes. It'd be crazy if the game kept track of information like that and could react accordingly. Just absolutely crazy...

Honestly, this is why I decided to start working on my own game instead of trying to mod/fix this one (or, you know, continue contributing to other games). There's so much potential to play with the sim side of LT. You could easily give NPCs preferences about what species they like, and have them react if the player changes into or out of that species (totally didn't just make a note about that right now). Like, easily a third of the character variables are completely stupid and could be dropped completely to make room for more interesting stuff. LT is a good example of how little writing a lot of this takes, you can easily reuse content if you just had a handful of variations on the same thing.

But of course, there's no reason to work on the sim side of the game while the game's performance is still absolute dog shit.

And it's still absolute dog shit. Despite a couple people imagining that there were major changes in the performance that were left of the that patch notes, for some god damn reason, the game still lags like a motherfucker with as little as 15 slaves if they're assigned the wrong jobs or in the wrong locations.

And well, it's been a year since Nyan's rework released. And this is where we are. So none of this will ever happen.

 

[mrttao]

If only there were moments in the game that would be absolutely, completely perfect for giving the illusion of player agency by addressing the players accomplishments in the game through NPCs who should already know the player's accomplishments and literally have a scene where you're trying to impressive them with those accomplishments even though they should already know them...

Wait... I think I wrote like a five page wall of text back in... holy fuck Nyan's quest was a year ago? How the fuck was that a year ago? Good god nothing has gotten done in a year. Again.

...uh...

BACK TO THE JOKE!

If only there were really simple ways to make the NPC's react to changes in player appearance. If only the game kept track of basic information like whether the player's sex were known to the NPC which could be reset the moment the player changes their sex so that the NPC would react to changes. It'd be crazy if the game kept track of information like that and could react accordingly. Just absolutely crazy...

Honestly, this is why I decided to start working on my own game instead of trying to mod/fix this one (or, you know, continue contributing to other games). There's so much potential to play with the sim side of LT. You could easily give NPCs preferences about what species they like, and have them react if the player changes into or out of that species (totally didn't just make a note about that right now). Like, easily a third of the character variables are completely stupid and could be dropped completely to make room for more interesting stuff. LT is a good example of how little writing a lot of this takes, you can easily reuse content if you just had a handful of variations on the same thing.

But of course, there's no reason to work on the sim side of the game while the game's performance is still absolute dog shit.

And it's still absolute dog shit. Despite a couple people imagining that there were major changes in the performance that were left of the that patch notes, for some god damn reason, the game still lags like a motherfucker with as little as 15 slaves if they're assigned the wrong jobs or in the wrong locations.

And well, it's been a year since Nyan's rework released. And this is where we are. So none of this will ever happen.

1. randos overreacting to you changing your haircut (or other equally trivial alterations) is not what player agency means.

2. the fact that the coding infrastructure exists to facilitate this highly specific feature request of yours does not mean it is an effortless change to make. Nor the fact that this change the fact that is a highly specific request for new features. You are falsely making it out to be a failing of the game, that the game is wrong in not catering to this extreme niche fetish of yours. That this is not just your fetish addition request but a very serious defect in the game.

This is not a game defect, this is not a lack of agency. This is you having a very specific niche fetish and pretending that the game has no player agency because this very specific fetish is not catered to.

And before you say "but some of those changes are pretty extreme! far more so than change of haircut". It takes way more effort to change your haircut IRL (like, an hour!) than it does to become a winged furry futa with 3 foot long penis and 2 foot long tongue (~5 minutes. most of which is walking to the store).

3. The game is literally open source

You must be registered to see the links

go download the source code. write up some NPC reactions. and submit a PR / release it as a mod. Show us how it is done. after all you keep on going on about how trivially easy it would be to code this feature request of yours. I want to see how many lines of code it takes you to do it.

 

[tehlemon]

1. randos overreacting to you changing your haircut (or other equally trivial alterations) is not what player agency means.

I'm sorry, did you even read my post? Like, you must have skipped half of it if that's all the take away you got from this.

2. the fact that the coding infrastructure exists to facilitate this highly specific feature request of yours does not mean it is an effortless change to make. Nor the fact that this change the fact that is a highly specific request for new features. You are falsely making it out to be a failing of the game, that the game is wrong in not catering to this extreme niche fetish of yours. That this is not just your fetish addition request but a very serious defect in the game.

Seriously, did you even read my post?

The "programming is actually hard!11" argument always seems to come from people who don't understand what they're talking about. And you apparently missed me saying I'm literally making my own game right now. *Obviously* it's not an effortless change. No where did I say it would be. In fact, I literally said its not worth the time investment in the last section of my post.

Seriously, did you even read my post?

This is not a game defect, this is not a lack of agency. This is you having a very specific niche fetish and pretending that the game has no player agency because this very specific fetish is not catered to.

Hey look, it's that falacy where you assume because one thing isn't true, another thing must also not be true.

But seriously, did you read my post? Because you're really cherry picking your arguments here.

And what fetishes are you even talking about? I literally didn't mention a single fetish. Like, not one. WTF are you even on about?

And before you say "but some of those changes are pretty extreme! far more so than change of haircut". It takes way more effort to change your haircut IRL (like, an hour!) than it does to become a winged furry futa with 3 foot long penis and 2 foot long tongue (~5 minutes. most of which is walking to the store).

So? What's your point?

3. The game is literally open source

You must be registered to see the links

go download the source code. write up some NPC reactions. and submit a PR / release it as a mod. Show us how it is done. after all you keep on going on about how trivially easy it would be to code this feature request of yours. I want to see how many lines of code it takes you to do it.

No it's not. And I can also link to github.

You must be registered to see the links

Although this Project is publicly available, it is not open source software. All Content is under sole ownership and Copyright 2016 Innoxia (innoxia7@gmail.com) all rights reserved.

And again, did you even read my post? Like, seriously, how shit is your reading comprehension where this is what you came away with. I literally addressed this exact demand of yours in the post you're replying to. You just ignore it.

Also...

I want to see how many lines of code it takes you to do it.

Only a really terrible programmer judges difficulty by number of lines. Or someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.

Oh wait...

 

[Tattletale21]

I'm sorry, did you even read my post? Like, you must have skipped half of it if that's all the take away you got from this.



Seriously, did you even read my post?

The "programming is actually hard!11" argument always seems to come from people who don't understand what they're talking about. And you apparently missed me saying I'm literally making my own game right now. *Obviously* it's not an effortless change. No where did I say it would be. In fact, I literally said its not worth the time investment in the last section of my post.

Seriously, did you even read my post?



Hey look, it's that falacy where you assume because one thing isn't true, another thing must also not be true.

But seriously, did you read my post? Because you're really cherry picking your arguments here.

And what fetishes are you even talking about? I literally didn't mention a single fetish. Like, not one. WTF are you even on about?



So? What's your point?



No it's not. And I can also link to github.

You must be registered to see the links

And again, did you even read my post? Like, seriously, how shit is your reading comprehension where this is what you came away with. I literally addressed this exact demand of yours in the post you're replying to. You just ignore it.

Also...



Only a really terrible programmer judges difficulty by number of lines. Or someone who doesn't know what the fuck they're talking about.

Oh wait...

holy shit dude you didn't need to fucking murder him.

no

wait

you did.

 

[Tairnel]

He asked for it LOL

 

[Carl0sDanger]

It was a mercy killing.

 

[mrttao]

I'm sorry, did you even read my post? Like, you must have skipped half of it if that's all the take away you got from this.

Seriously, did you even read my post?

Did you read your own post? you are repeatedly going on about this

If only there were really simple ways to make the NPC's react to changes in player appearance. If only the game kept track of basic information like whether the player's sex were known to the NPC which could be reset the moment the player changes their sex so that the NPC would react to changes. It'd be crazy if the game kept track of information like that and could react accordingly. Just absolutely crazy...

Oh look. a thing you definitely NEVER SAID. nope, never said that.

The "programming is actually hard!11" argument always seems to come from people who don't understand what they're talking about. And you apparently missed me saying I'm literally making my own game right now. *Obviously* it's not an effortless change. No where did I say it would be. In fact, I literally said its not worth the time investment in the last section of my post.

You are not the only programmer in the world you. I know exactly what I am talking about.
I also did not say programming is hard, I said it would take a fuckton of lines to add what you requested. Not because it is hard, but because it is TEDIOUS. vast majority of the lines are not gonna even be programming infrastructure and instead be lines of dialog to output for the player to read so they can react to every possible permutation.

I will grant you that you suggested author drop a third of the variables. And I agree with you there. Most of them are both useless, overly specific, and not actually used anywhere

No it's not. And I can also link to github.

You must be registered to see the links

Did you not read the License? it explicitly allows you to submit code and also to release your own fork so long as you adhere to certain reasonable requests.

And again, did you even read my post? Like, seriously, how shit is your reading comprehension where this is what you came away with. I literally addressed this exact demand of yours in the post you're replying to. You just ignore it.

This is innoxia being wholly ignorant of what the term open source means. She seems to think open source means public domain. It does not.

open source = any program whose source is publicly available for viewing. Even if it is not a free software and you are not allowed to reproduce the source code nor use it without purchasing a license.
FOSS = free and open source software = software whose source is open to the public and also the software is free. People often use FOSS as a synonym for open source but they are not.
public domain = anyone can take the program, fork it into a closed source project, and sell it for money

Innexia is saying "this is not open source software" due to her ignorance. Her source is being given so this is open source. And it is in fact FOSS because her license explicitly states:

Redistribution, use, and modification of the Project and its Content, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

1. The Project must retain the above copyright notice and this license as is.
2. The Binaries must reproduce the above copyright notice (i.e. leave Innoxia's name in the credits page).
3. The Project, its Content, and Binaries:
   3a. must carry prominent notices stating it is modified, and not endorsed by Innoxia, if applicable.
   3b. must be available free of charge, if distributed.
   3c. may not be used for commercial purposes.

Points 3b and 3c are to protect the player base from having to pay for modded copies of the game. I don't want modders to try and take advantage of players (by adding a paywall to their mods).

You are explicitly allowed to publish mods for this game so long as you adhere to those simple requirements.
In fact this is a near classic BY-NC-SA FOSS license.

You must be registered to see the links

• You must be registered to see the links
  : This license allows reusers to distribute, remix, adapt, and build upon the material in any medium or format for noncommercial purposes only, and only so long as attribution is given to the creator. If you remix, adapt, or build upon the material, you must license the modified material under identical terms.

CC BY-NC-SA includes the following elements:
BY

– Credit must be given to the creator
NC

– Only noncommercial uses of the work are permitted
SA

– Adaptations must be shared under the same terms

The author is simply ignorant and thinks open source == public domain
She wrote up a custom BY-NC-SA for herself instead of using the creative commons one. But the essence of it is practically the same.

 

[Tattletale21]

1. randos overreacting to you changing your haircut (or other equally trivial alterations) is not what player agency means.

2. the fact that the coding infrastructure exists to facilitate this highly specific feature request of yours does not mean it is an effortless change to make. Nor the fact that this change the fact that is a highly specific request for new features. You are falsely making it out to be a failing of the game, that the game is wrong in not catering to this extreme niche fetish of yours. That this is not just your fetish addition request but a very serious defect in the game.

This is not a game defect, this is not a lack of agency. This is you having a very specific niche fetish and pretending that the game has no player agency because this very specific fetish is not catered to.

And before you say "but some of those changes are pretty extreme! far more so than change of haircut". It takes way more effort to change your haircut IRL (like, an hour!) than it does to become a winged furry futa with 3 foot long penis and 2 foot long tongue (~5 minutes. most of which is walking to the store).

3. The game is literally open source

You must be registered to see the links

go download the source code. write up some NPC reactions. and submit a PR / release it as a mod. Show us how it is done. after all you keep on going on about how trivially easy it would be to code this feature request of yours. I want to see how many lines of code it takes you to do it.

just to twist the dagger a bit, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what agency actually means, and what kind of agency we're after in this game - a game of which already has one type of agency, and we're asking for it to evolve into another.

"Agency is the degree to which a player is able to cause significant change in a game world. Low agency games involve either no interactivity, nudging or busywork. High agency games allow the player to significantly change the world or the state of objects within the world with every action."

You must be registered to see the links

hot damn would you look at that! it's almost like i did the smart thing and used the internet to back up an argument! bro, that's insane!

just because i can, let's refute your other points of 'contention' while you simp for Inno's lack of progress in a game that, from the start, all-but promised high agency for the players. let's do that!

Point Uno:

1. Where in the lore does it say that stores do not sell transformative items casually to anyone with money? All I have seen is that most people are unable to directly harvest essence and instead must buy it in bottles. Which you yourself can fill up and sell for some pitifully small amount of cash (30 flames per bottle)

in the beginning, actually. if you paid a damn iota of attention to literally anything Lilaya says about extracting essences and transforming yourself you would know that essences themselves are pretty useless to the wider population because so few can actually use them. so even if they're rare, they're useless, get it? transformative items, the things like cakes and drinks and such, are a - here comes the big shocker - gameplay decision by the creator! gosh, it's almost as if the game does not specifically need to adhere to the lore verbatim! wow!

uh, also? the foods themselves don't transform you. you need to enchant them first and them drink the potion variant you create - you know, enchanting? that thing only witches and demons can do? that thing? the thing Lilaya mentions to us? yeah, that thing. and if you paid any attention to the prologue of the game, you'd find out that - as the big, scawy pwotagonist - you're special! you can extract essences from other people and use them for - you guessed it - enchanting! sure, some foods can transform you, but they're quite expensive and can only be bought at either a specific shop, or found in a highly specif area with a highly specific enemy to beat before getting the chance to get it. get it?

the shops might be able to sell those things, true, but did you ignore the - very good, actually - argument about how fucked this game's economy lore-wise is? here you are, quoting lore, and ignoring that specific part of it to fuel your baseless argument! you silly goose, you! the reason shops sell transformative potions is never actually explained, sure, but it is well explained that flames roughly equate to the british pound sterling - considering this game is, or was, based in the british isles that makes sense, no? - and that most transformative potions are...you guessed it...expensive! also, in case you missed that little dig at your investigative skills, allow me to point it out for you - flames are a rough equivalent of the pound sterling, and i dunno about you, but 375 flames for a t-shirt? highway robbery...or a sign of a collapsed economy! wow! look at all the brian cells i had to expend figuring that out!

Point Two:

Whether it is good or bad is irrelevant to the argument. The argument being on whether NPCs should make a big deal out of you walking to any of a half dozen different stores in town and buying a transformative. Whether it is a transformation cake at the cafe, or a transformation potion at the shop, or a transformation tattoo from the tattoo parlor, or a transformation piercing from the sex shop, or a transformation bondage from the slavers

lessee here...i've pretty much addressed all of this except for...wait! here it is! some more stupidity!

"...or a transformation tattoo from the tattoo parlor, or a transformation piercing from the sex shop, or a transformation bondage from the slavers."

there are transformative tattoos in this game? transformative piercings that the player doesn't make themselves? fucking where! boy, how can i have played this game for a solid three years and never noticed this? sweet golly jesus i must be blind!

...or to have actually played the game.

because you clearly haven't. you've probably gotten past the tutorial, glanced over some of the available locations and items on offer, and then suddenly think you understand everything this game has to offer.

Spoiler

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wow! it's almost like i destroyed your petty argument with some well thought-out reasoning! gee golly, it's almost like i have actually played the game! it's almost like i know what i'm talking about! wowee!

pick your fights my dude, because i can guarantee you acting all high and mighty pretending to know what you're on about is winning you no favours. quit while you're ahead.

EDIT: I take back my argument that tattoos can't be transformative, because they can...but they're far more expensive than a regular transformative potion ever could be. 1000 flames minimum just to get the damn thing in the first place, and depending on the transformation that you want that price could climb past 5000 flames. so, while i take back my argument on the tattoos, you're still silly for thinking that such a thing could ever be used in this argument of yours in the first place, considering that the price itself is even more indicative of a fucked economy and, therefore, invalidating your argument.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

it is well explained that flames roughly equate to the british pound sterling - considering this game is, or was, based in the british isles that makes sense, no? - and that most transformative potions are...you guessed it...expensive! also, in case you missed that little dig at your investigative skills, allow me to point it out for you - flames are a rough equivalent of the pound sterling, and i dunno about you, but 375 flames for a t-shirt? highway robbery...or a sign of a collapsed economy! wow! look at all the brian cells i had to expend figuring that out!

A minor point of order, the Flame is said to be about 10 pence mostly for the sake of pricing real world inspired items. The numbers are big because it kind of behaves like the Yen in its lack of an actively used further subdivision.
So that shirt would cost about 37.5 GBP - probably some kind of brand but not outrageous in itself.

 

[mrttao]

lessee here...i've pretty much addressed all of this except for...wait! here it is! some more stupidity!

"...or a transformation tattoo from the tattoo parlor, or a transformation piercing from the sex shop, or a transformation bondage from the slavers."

there are transformative tattoos in this game? transformative piercings that the player doesn't make themselves? fucking where! boy, how can i have played this game for a solid three years and never noticed this? sweet golly jesus i must be blind!

...or to have actually played the game.

because you clearly haven't. you've probably gotten past the tutorial, glanced over some of the available locations and items on offer, and then suddenly think you understand everything this game has to offer.

You don't
wow! it's almost like i destroyed your petty argument with some well thought-out reasoning! gee golly, it's almost like i have actually played the game! it's almost like i know what i'm talking about! wowee!

pick your fights my dude, because i can guarantee you acting all high and mighty pretending to know what you're on about is winning you no favours. quit while you're ahead.

This honestly made me laugh at how over the top you go with how you are "destroying" me. How I didn't play the game. How my arguments are petty. How I should pick my fights. etc... you are going quite in depth to disparage me personally about my sheer and utterly gall to speak before a mighty expert such as yourself with my utter ignorance of how the game works... How I am utterly wrong about transformation tattoos you can buy at the store being a thing that exists...

Here is how you hire someone to tattoo your slave with a transformation tattoo at no essence cost to yourself:
Step 1: get a slave
Step 2: walk to the slave's bedroom and click on them.
step 3: click on manage
step 4: click send to kate
step 5: click on tattoos
step 6: add a tattoo. pay money for it.
step 7: click enchant. kate will enchant the tattoo for you with anything you want, including transformations. The cost of the enchantment will be paid in flames and requires no essence

Here is how to get it for yourself:
step 1: walk to mall
step 2: walk to succubi's secrets
step 3: get a tattoo. pay money for it.
step 4: click enchant on the tattoo. kate will enchant the tattoo for you with transformations of your choice. it requires 0 essence from you and is all done by kate using her bottled essence. She charges you money for the service.

edit: I forgot about the piercings. same store with the tats also sells a "caution when wet" piercing that transforms vagina and anus wetness level to max.

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[Tattletale21]

Wow, I am so utterly destroyed. Clearly I am an idiot who never played the game and you are a grand expert with 3 years experience and thus I am completely wrong about transformation tattoos being a thing that exists...

Here is how you hire someone to tattoo your slave with a transformation tattoo at no essence cost to yourself:
Step 1: get a slave
Step 2: walk to the slave's bedroom and click on them.
step 3: click on manage
step 4: click send to kate
step 5: click on tattoos
step 6: add a tattoo. pay money for it.
step 7: click enchant. kate will enchant the tattoo for you with anything you want, including transformations. The cost of the enchantment will be paid in flames and requires no essence

Here is how to get it for yourself:
step 1: walk to mall
step 2: walk to succubi's secrets
step 3: get a tattoo. pay money for it.
step 4: click enchant on the tattoo. kate will enchant the tattoo for you with transformations of your choice. it requires 0 essence from you and is all done by kate using her bottled essence. She charges you money for the service.

You literally proved yourself wrong! Your citations literally exactly agree with me on what agency means
Changing your avatar's appearance is not "cause significant change in the game world". Getting randos to comment about your looks is not agency.

You are making a lot of assumptions there. Nowhere have I simped for inno's lack of progress. Please provide a citation where I do.
I disagreed with claims about how you must have NPCs comment on your looks for the game to have agency. Getting NPCs to comment on your avatar's looks is not agency, it is just narcissism.

This is so wrong on so many levels:
1. People can use a product they do not know how to make. Do you know how to make hair dye at home? can you buy hair dye at the store and use it? Do you know how to make an aspirin at home? can you buy one at the store and use it?
Essence is not used for transformation, it is used for CRAFTING transformatives. You do not need to know how to craft something in order to buy it in a store and use it.
Brax explicitly hired a guy to craft a custom transformation potion for him because he does not have the ability to craft his own potions. Because Brax can not use essence... but using essence is not needed to DRINK a potion or wear a piece of magical equipment.

2. Liliya actually says that most people are unable to collect essence. That she and most common demons have to buy it in a bottle instead of getting it through sex the way the MC can. She does not say that nobody can use essence. In fact literally every enchanter uses essence... from bottles.

true, true, but counterpoint!

only witches and demons can enchant in the first place, or those of demonic origin considering the arcane is needed to even enchant anything in the first place. of which so few in this world can actually use. so there.

also can i just point out how funny it is that you're constantly using the hair dye metaphor for something like changing your very body through a potion? you seem to take things quite literal as well, when in fact we're talking about a game! it's almost as if the game is fictitious from the start!

and yes, you're simping. you dont need to say you're a simp to be a simp, you simp. because, truthfully? only a simp - or a fourteen year old child that's just gotten a hold of the internet and thinks it's the key to immortality or some nonsense - would start an argument about a sex game to prove a point - when said game is four years behind on its own development and stretched thin lore-wise anyway, so using lore to back arguments up when lore could change any second now is...well, pointless, i guess. the height of folly, one could say.

so, pretentious simp man, you can stop and save yourself an internet battle that would have the mods descend to drag us all to blocked valhalla, or you could just...give up? this argument means nothing to anyone - anyone with half a brain can see that people are just humouring you - so uh...stop? now?

damn i'm good at arguing with people. i should be a politician or something.

 

[Tattletale21]

A minor point of order, the Flame is said to be about 10 pence mostly for the sake of pricing real world inspired items. The numbers are big because it kind of behaves like the Yen in its lack of an actively used further subdivision.
So that shirt would cost about 37.5 GBP - probably some kind of brand but not outrageous in itself.

yeah that's a good point. but i think if the GBP is being treated like the yen the economy's pretty fucked either way. that was the main point of my argument, but thanks for pointing that out to me!

...i'm being wholly truthful, no sarcasm at all. thanks for pointing it out to me. give me more ammo in the future i guess? somehow? who knows?

 

[mrttao]

and yes, you're simping. you dont need to say you're a simp to be a simp, you simp. because, truthfully? only a simp - or a fourteen year old child that's just gotten a hold of the internet and thinks it's the key to immortality or some nonsense - would start an argument about a sex game to prove a point - when said game is four years behind on its own development and stretched thin lore-wise anyway, so using lore to back arguments up when lore could change any second now is...well, pointless, i guess. the height of folly, one could say.

1. you do realize you are arguing on the internet right now

2. you are making assumptions on my goals here.

3. seriously. saying I simp for the author is ridiculous... its like... imagine this:
doug: The nazies used time machines to kill people
jack: The nazies did not have time machines
doug: Did you just defend nazies? This makes you a nazi! everyone jack is a nazi!

I said a person is wrong on a specific thing. This does not mean I disagree with him on everything ever and are a member of the" opposition party". It just means I disagree with him on that thing. nothing more, nothing less.

I actually agree with him on other things. For example, I agree with him that inno needs to cut out a bunch of useless variables, that her code is a disaster, and that she barely made any substantive progress in years because she is spreading herself too thing.