Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[IvoryOwl]

Looking at her Sub.Star page:

1$ - 74 subs
5$ - 885 subs
10$ - 259 subs

74 x 1= 74$
885 x 5= 4425$
259 x 10 = 2590$
--------------------
Total: 7089$

7k is how much she earns a month to treat this game as her full-time job, as per her own words written under the 2.5k goal mark. However, it's not so much the amount of hours you put into it that matter, it's consistency and quality. There's only so much a person can do while working solo on a project meant for a team.

That being said, working solo was (and still is) her choice. Continuously making promises and deadlines she knows she cannot keep, which leads to general disappointment and skepticism, is her choice. Ignoring and silencing the criticism that has piled up over the years, due to bad decisions, was and still is her choice. Amateurish and lackadaisical attitude towards development (procrastination, adding things as spur of the moment, lack of proper planning and priorities) are her choice.

This game has been in development since 2016 and it is what kickstarted her "career" as a developer and coder. Many mistakes were made that affected the foundation of the game. Some were rectified, some still persist. Due to a combination of factors, the code that supports the game is spiraling out of control and becoming unmanageable, which means development is becoming increasingly difficult. Each year we see less and less progress whereas her "personal breaks or mini-vacations" keep getting longer and more frequent. The future of Lilith's Throne is uncertain.

Many people have come and gone and despite differences in taste, many share a similar story; they start hopeful, engaged and in some cases even protective of the game and its developer. But as time progresses they start to see things for what they are - lack of actual progress, the same repeated mistakes, criticism falling on deaf ears. Lilith's Throne manages to stand only because it has no direct competition. A load of potential in the wrong hands, waiting for one day to be saved by the community (once we get more modding templates).

This is what we have now. People are here not so much for the game anymore but for the community. Development (or the lack of thereof) has become a meme at this point and you know how it is with memes...

 

[Tattletale21]

Nah but honestly is someone paying you to regularly shit talk this game and developer? Because if you don't like it you can move on to other games xd?

is someone paying you to suck Inno's nonexistent dick, or do you just enjoy bowing down and kissing the asses of people with more talent than yourself?

and considering we're talking about Inno, that means something.

Look, i get you wanna white knight her, or defend her honour, or some other fourteenth century belongs-in-a-neckbeard's-basement thing, but honestly? we're roasting Inno because at this point she's done sweet fuck-all with a game she's been hemming and hawing at for the past four+ years, and she's being paid for it too - on Patreon, at least, and i'm pretty sure she still gets private donations and shit - but that's not the point. the point is Inno has had four years to get this game moving in a direction that isn't rock bottom, and instead wastes time adding fetishes no one cares for, extra furry transformations even hardcore furries dont care for, and the most work put in this game since we begin to leave Ellis is Nyan's fucking dating sidequest, it's understandable just why we roast her.

get off your high horse, you're no better than us.

pay attention to the game from, say, three years ago - aside form some minor changes we oculd really have done without, the game is almost exactly the same, aside from some QOL changes.

three years. no meaningful progress. that's why we roast her.

 

[Big Boss | Erect Snake]

I'm gonna unwatch this thread now. You all make it really hard for anyone new to want to give the game a try with how much bitching you all are doing. Criticizing the game and the dev is one thing, but you all are beating a dead horse by this point. If it's so hard to relay your thoughts to the dev, then make your thoughts known with your wallet. Stop subbing to their SS or Patreon or whatever avenue she uses, keep an eye here for any significant updates and/or move onto something else. I get being upset, especially after spending money on subbing. I also understand it scales with how long you might have subbed, but at some point, it becomes an unhealthy obsession no longer trying to motivating the dev, and actively begins to poison the game's development. Then it goes full circle and the cycle doesn't end. It just gets toxic and will undoubtedly lead to the game being abandoned. Don't turn it into a complex.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Is there a v0.4.2.5 download anywhere? I used search and only found people complaining about how it's not out yet from back in december and further back. OP shows the version as v0.4.2.5, but all the x64 downloads are still v0.4.2.3.

Let me quote my old post for you.

Unless you're a Subscriber, preview builds have be compiled manually and that can be a bit of a pain. Since no one else was willing, I decided to do it myself and share it here, however, the program I used (Eclipse) produces a .jar file and I have no idea how to convert it to an .exe so that's why only that one is up-to-date.

Part of me is a little concerned as usually we would get the files shortly after an update. It's almost as if the interest in this game is dying out to the point people are no longer interested in either sharing or compiling the game anymore... her sub numbers are still going strong so it's probably people (who use F95) getting wiser and moving on or only checking this sporadically.

I can't blame them... this game takes a long ass time to get any meaningful or sizeable content out.

Since nothing changed, it's fair to say you'll have to wait for the next public update if you want the x64 version.

 

[BeholdTheWizzard]

Nah but honestly is someone paying you to regularly shit talk this game and developer? Because if you don't like it you can move on to other games xd?

I dunno about him, but at this point shit talking Inno is the only fun this game actually provides.
Also he/she/it deserves it. Crappy organization and prioritization.

Alas, Inno has a horde of defenders that make it so any critisism on the discord/forums is burried/deleted

 

[dunklunktunk]

Honestly, watching this thread and checking over what y'all are saying myself, I must admit the knob slobbering of some of you defenders of LT is incredible and makes me wish to change my sexuality to achieve such cock throating talent.

You guys can join the update watching and see if any of Inno's detractors are wrong if you want, they've been here longer than me and probably know what they're talking about. Watching from an outside perspective, even I can tell that her update speed is incredibly S L O W. Especially for one person with a community of talented enough fans who can probably ant hill together some better code over the course of a shorter time period than her usual average. It's not like she can't get help.

 

[DietrichGRU]

*Ignoring how people were totally not baited by entirely, 100% sincere posts defending the dev.*

I also understand it scales with how long you might have subbed, but at some point, it becomes an unhealthy obsession no longer trying to motivating the dev, and actively begins to poison the game's development. Then it goes full circle and the cycle doesn't end. It just gets toxic and will undoubtedly lead to the game being abandoned. Don't turn it into a complex.

Dev has already shown that she is not interested in engaging/having a LT conversation which is not anally moderated against real or imagined toxicity.
And, unironically, the prospect of this project being abandoned is not the worst case scenario. Not even the bad one. As a sane person already said:

Lilith's Throne manages to stand only because it has no direct competition. A load of potential in the wrong hands, waiting for one day to be saved by the community (once we get more modding templates).

This is what we have now. People are here not so much for the game anymore but for the community. Development (or the lack of thereof) has become a meme at this point and you know how it is with memes...

There is a project called Free Cities. A fairly complicated (and objectively the best) slave manager. Original dev abandoned the game at around 2015 and gave a blessing to anyone who wanted to continue it. It was picked up by modders, who for free, in their spare time, continue it's development to this day. Out of a passion, a thing Inno lacks. FS has been noticeably improved both in technical and creative sense ever since. And it's a goddamn html browser game.

LT community exists and is still alive. Project's potential is great and it's fairly well-known. There are reasonable, even, dare I say, hopeful prospects for it's continued development if one fateful day Inno disappears. Just saying.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right? You don't have to spend all these years masturbating to the idea of Inno one day abandoning LT first.

Just saying.

 

[Sarkath]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right?

The license would give me pause. LT is not libre software even if the source code happens to be available.

I doubt it would be an issue as Inno's been pretty great with regards to forks, but it's still a grey area nonetheless.

 

[SheepPun]

To be blunt, Inno's done some pretty amazing shit. She has

1. Produced a working beta that is reminiscent of the final product she strives for
2. Created a community that is passionate about the game, even in its incomplete state
3. Hasn't just dropped the game after all these years.
4. Has accomplished 1-3 at the same time

I know that list seems like minor stuff but like... how many projects, even ones of smaller scope, just die because it's missing one of those factors?

However with all that, I cannot, in good faith, recommend the game to anyone right now. Not because it's *bad* (though that doesn't help its case) but because it so easy to think of how 'oh, with these small steps, it could be so much better.' It's easy to get invested in Lilith's Throne and even into Inno, a lot of her problems are relatable, but ultimately the game isn't worth the potential heartache that comes with its current progress.

Here be stagnant water.

 

[IvoryOwl]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right? You don't have to spend all these years masturbating to the idea of Inno one day abandoning LT first.

Just saying.

While the code is publicly available, meaning anyone can create their own fork, the license specifically states the game is NOT an open source software and all ownership and copyrights still belongs to Innoxia. At the end of the day, this means she has the right to lay claim to any and all content you make for the game.

Not everyone is willing to dedicate their time and expertise to something that could very well get swept from under their feet and claimed by someone else... without payment. In essence, not everyone wants to do Inno's job for her, for free, while she gets the laurels for it. She's already piggy-backing on modders in that regard (my respect and appreciation goes out to them and their work).

So yes, in a sense, people will have to wait for Innoxia to officially abandon the project first before they can effectively work on it, on their own terms, without worrying about a copyright claim looming over their heads.

Quoting the section from the license:

Although this Project is publicly available, it is not open source software. All Content is under sole ownership and Copyright 2016 Innoxia (email removed) all rights reserved.

 

[BaloneyAmone]

LT community exists and is still alive. Project's potential is great and it's fairly well-known. There are reasonable, even, dare I say, hopeful prospects for it's continued development if one fateful day Inno disappears. Just saying.

That's an ominous statement. I hope you're not planning something.

 

[DietrichGRU]

That's an ominous statement. I hope you're not planning something.

Ngl, it would be greatly amusing to see a news report about some weirdo apprehended in a local airport.
"Witnesses say that offender was furiously masturbating with one hand and holding a metal fork with another, while mumbling about some kind of delays. A piece of paper glued to the fork read "SACF". Scotland Yard took over the investigation process."

 

[tehlemon]

Y'all know there is literally nothing stopping any of you from taking the lead and starting the Super Awesome Community Fork right now, right? You don't have to spend all these years masturbating to the idea of Inno one day abandoning LT first.

Just saying.

For a just saying, that's not saying much.

There's some really, really obvious reasons why no one is going to ever do that.

For one, the software isn't open source. And for a second, Inno will absolutely kill any project that becomes more popular than her version. Because that's fucking obvious. Her entire livelihood depends on her version of the game being the only popular version. If anyone actually made the game playable and improved the content pipeline, there's exactly two things that will happen.

1) Inno kills your project. Something she absolutely can do.

2) Inno takes your hard work for free and continues to profit off it. Because the alternative is she kills your project.

I'm not going to pay someone who doesn't even bother working maybe 20 hours in a given week. And I'm definitely not going to work for free to earn that person a living. Specially when that person has a long history of taking other peoples' work and passing it off as though they're accomplishing something themselves.

And the whole premise is fucking stupid anyways, because obviously Inno would never allow a competing version of her game to pull away from her income. Who the fuck would be dumb enough to even think that....

Oh... Right.

 

[NoStepOnSnek]

The license would give me pause. LT is not libre software even if the source code happens to be available.

I doubt it would be an issue as Inno's been pretty great with regards to forks, but it's still a grey area nonetheless.

The actual license text is very clear on the issue, people here just have a habit of only ever quoting the (admittedly somewhat confusing) introduction sentence.

License:

Redistribution, use, and modification of the Project and its Content, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

1. The Project must retain the above copyright notice and this license as is.
2. The Binaries must reproduce the above copyright notice (i.e. leave Innoxia's name in the credits page).
3. The Project, its Content, and Binaries:
   3a. must carry prominent notices stating it is modified, and not endorsed by Innoxia, if applicable.
   3b. must be available free of charge, if distributed.
   3c. may not be used for commercial purposes.

You must be registered to see the links

 

[Sarkath]

The actual license text is very clear on the issue, people here just have a habit of only ever quoting the (admittedly somewhat confusing) introduction sentence.

You must be registered to see the links

Yes, I'm very familiar with the license, and no, those clauses don't really mean a whole lot when you look at the license as a whole. If you're dealing with a DMCA or copyright infringement case (which is what you would be dealing with in the case of a verboten fork), you have to take the entire license into account, not just individual bits and pieces.

And yes, those three clauses look fine. It's basically what you'd expect from a BSD or MIT-style license. However, let's take a look at the bits surrounding the three clauses you cited (sans the definitions, since those speak for themselves):

You must read and agree to the attached disclaimer before viewing any part of this Project.

Although this Project is publicly available, it is not open source software. All Content is under sole ownership and Copyright 2016 Innoxia (innoxia7@gmail.com) all rights reserved.

[...]

On Content submissions and Contributions:

By making any Contribution to the Project, potential contributers agree to give the project creator(s) and/or maintainers a perpetual, unlimited, royalty-free license to reuse, incorporate, distribute, modify, or extend the aforementioned Contribution in any fashion they see fit.

So, if I contribute content, am I granting Inno a perpetual license or am I just giving it to her? Based on the top clause, I'm assigning her copyright. Based on the bottom clause, I'm licensing my work to her. IANAL, but common sense dictates that the more restrictive clause would likely take precedent.

Additionally, forks need to retain the license, and the license states that contributions are Inno's property, so that makes all forks Inno's property.

You see where the problem lies?

It's a flawed license and one that is not friendly to forks. If I'm going to commit large swathes of time to a third-party project I'm going to need assurance that I'm not wasting my time. It doesn't matter whether or not Inno is friendly to forks (and she does seem to be). Past behavior and words don't tend to hold up against copyright claims.

 

[Tattletale21]

bro since when did the LT forums turn into a Law and Order episode?

 

[Sarkath]

bro since when did the LT forums turn into a Law and Order episode?

Is that better or worse than when we were discussing model railroading a month or so ago?

 

[rasbinf]

well personally i just hope this game will continue

 

[throbzombie]

Hasn't just dropped the game after all these years.

You know your life has taken a wrong turn when this is item number three of four on your list of "amazing" things that a person has done.