Java Lilith's Throne [v0.4.9.9] [Innoxia]

[_Metamorphosis_]

Ladies, Gentlemen, Non-Binaries, and Vermin! I am very proud to announce it has been almost an entire month since Inno's last post on Blogspot where she claimed she would have the new update available "very soon" along with saying she would post again a few days once she was sure she would be able to release it.

All of this could have been easily avoided by simply having a roadmap

She has an road map on her blogpost, but she gets side tracked A LOT, we are on version 0.4.9 and the next Lilin encounter would be on 0.5, Elis being resolved was the general plan for 0.4 to 0.5 yet here we are.

Now, as I am once again bored I will rank the backgrounds for shit n giggles.

S TIER: Soldier

Soldier is just incredibly OP, having double attack first turn is monstrous along with it's boost to damage and some health, it's incredibly powerful in literally every stage of the game.

A Tier: Aristocrat, Salaryman.

Aristocrat has 25% damage for ranged weapons and melee along with being able to increase resistance the more corrupted you are, there is a catch of course as it only truly shines once you actually get a good melee weapon, solid but not enough compared to Soldier


The Salaryman has 50% critical power increase which is pretty strong, ofc you NEED to have things that can crit and it doesn't have many bonus compared to the others in the list, but still a pretty good pick.

B Tier: The Chef, Teacher, Student.

I thought ot putting Chef on C but they are pretty good, the shielding of poison is neglectable as many don't use poison weapons but what it really shines on is the double potion limit which can help you trivalize encounters, ofc the others above in this list have a much easier time without prep time.

Teacher can make shit load of money with the triple obedience gain, it trivializes the obedience gain and makes it incredibly easy to farm money, sucks on combat though

Student can be good with the increased arcane bonus, it makes early game bit easier due to the discount bonus, with the perks of arcane you should be at 41 so turning into some specific beings you should be able to easily reach 80 Arcane.

C Tier: Musician, Writer, Athlete, Butler

The Musician is good against anything that aren't mythological beings and capybaras with the increased lust damage, not much to say as physical is far better to kill things with, but it is capable of longer spells too.

Writer is only really good due to the increased 25% spell damage, the experience gain can be easily ignored and you can even morph, use potions, or get tatoos to gain the 25% bonus.

Athlete is a bait, it has an increased 10 physique and 100% chance of escape, ofc Combat is easy as long you aren't on the worst difficulty.

Butler is decent but not good enough, the butler set becomes better, yes but there really isn't much to talk about the butler it is good and the income from slaves if they are working as maids.

D Tier: Construction worker

The construction worker is bait, flames can be easily obtainable once you know what to do so the discount on rooms affects jackshit, but at least it has 5 phsique.

NEET Tier: NEET

The NEET is just... awful, it doesn't really bring anything good to the table outside the well rest bonus which is neglectable at best.

 

[johnysanchez01]

All of this could have been easily avoided by simply having a roadmap, knowing your goals and predicting bumps on the road to full version of the game. Even "spaghetti code" works when you have a clear goal(I know this because I'm the one writing them). Whether he/she is milking people on purpose or not, those excuses shouldn't justify such long development times.

It's hard for me to agree that it's that simple. Many AAA games still suffer from scope creep even with roadmaps and clear goals. A lot of times developers only get to know the flaws in their ideas when they've already developed significant portions of their game. Many beloved titles ended as very different games compared to their original visions, and that's just part of the gamedev process.
Indie devs usually have a lot less experience when it comes to project management and are often beholden to their crowdfunders when it comes to proritizing content for their game. The biggest backers often demand very specific things to be added, and so the devs have to set aside their time to meet these demands first. Backer vote is also an option, but this makes having a roadmap and clear goals a lot harder. I think people really underestimate how hard it is to prevent scope creep from occuring, because it's natural to assume that the hard part is actually developing the content. Preventing scope creep involves taking a look at genuinely good ideas and saying no to them, because you actually want to ship a finished game at some point.

All that being said, I do see your point about how it doesn't really matter if the paypig milking is intentional or not. Cause at the end of the day the dev gets paid and the backers don't get content. At this point I wonder if Inno is best served by going through the various systems and content in the game and pruning the parts that she doesn't know what to do with. This might mean removing parts of the game that I and many others like, but ultimately it'd make the game easier to work on. And the removed parts of the game could always come back, developed with a clear plan of action using the knowledge of previous success and mistakes.

 

[KaiSakurai]

I will admit that the corruption limit for the mating press does make some sense. Face to wall is one thing, but completely locking someone under your own body, with their knees up next to their head?

but way much more than face sitting? sitting on someone's face should be easily as naughty as mating press.

 

[KaiSakurai]

All of this could have been easily avoided by simply having a roadmap, knowing your goals and predicting bumps on the road to full version of the game. Even "spaghetti code" works when you have a clear goal(I know this because I'm the one writing them). Whether he/she is milking people on purpose or not, those excuses shouldn't justify such long development times.

even just more communication towards the fans would help. from what i've read so far she rarely gives announcements that sound like "it's going to take a few more days" and then goes silent for a month or two... if things take a bit longer than expected then communicate it. and maybe give a small summary why its taking longer so the players understand the reason for the delay.
currently its just an unannounced delay or undefined lenght for unknown reasons and we have to make guesses to make sense of it.

 

[Purple_Heart]

It's hard for me to agree that it's that simple. Many AAA games still suffer from scope creep even with roadmaps and clear goals. A lot of times developers only get to know the flaws in their ideas when they've already developed significant portions of their game. Many beloved titles ended as very different games compared to their original visions, and that's just part of the gamedev process.
Indie devs usually have a lot less experience when it comes to project management and are often beholden to their crowdfunders when it comes to proritizing content for their game. The biggest backers often demand very specific things to be added, and so the devs have to set aside their time to meet these demands first. Backer vote is also an option, but this makes having a roadmap and clear goals a lot harder. I think people really underestimate how hard it is to prevent scope creep from occuring, because it's natural to assume that the hard part is actually developing the content. Preventing scope creep involves taking a look at genuinely good ideas and saying no to them, because you actually want to ship a finished game at some point.

All that being said, I do see your point about how it doesn't really matter if the paypig milking is intentional or not. Cause at the end of the day the dev gets paid and the backers don't get content. At this point I wonder if Inno is best served by going through the various systems and content in the game and pruning the parts that she doesn't know what to do with. This might mean removing parts of the game that I and many others like, but ultimately it'd make the game easier to work on. And the removed parts of the game could always come back, developed with a clear plan of action using the knowledge of previous success and mistakes.

I'm writing this regardless of the game in question is crowdfunded or not.
Also I'm a complete noob when it comes to programming or developing a game but what I am about to write doesn't require me to have a professional understanding of how any of these works, what I'm about to write is nothing but common sense that I learned shortly after starting to work on my own game.

You will always come across good ideas, or have good ideas of your own that you wish you'd implemented them as a developer, no matter how long you worked on your game. However, if you want to finish your game at some point it is in your best interest to ignore most of those ideas/urges or you will end up in development hell, you will never be able to finish what you started in the way you envisioned it to be from the start. I am not saying you should ignore everything but you should be aware of the fact that one day you should finish what you started, prefably before your players/customers die of old age, completely lose interest in your game, technology/industry advances so much your game loses its charm, or other games comes out before yours and your game seems like just another clone game of an x game.

If I ever end up using patreon to develop a game I'll clearly state what the game is going to be, current state of the game, what kind of content I will end up adding. I'll allow supporters to only give me QoL ideas, not the game changing ones that would end up with me changing/rewriting the game so much I could only release new version of the game after a year.

 

[anubis1970]

even just more communication towards the fans would help. from what i've read so far she rarely gives announcements that sound like "it's going to take a few more days" and then goes silent for a month or two... if things take a bit longer than expected then communicate it. and maybe give a small summary why its taking longer so the players understand the reason for the delay.
currently its just an unannounced delay or undefined lenght for unknown reasons and we have to make guesses to make sense of it.

Inno's communication skills are only surpassed by her programming and time management skills.

 

[johnysanchez01]

If I ever end up using patreon to develop a game I'll clearly state what the game is going to be, current state of the game, what kind of content I will end up adding. I'll allow supporters to only give me QoL ideas, not the game changing ones that would end up with me changing/rewriting the game so much I could only release new version of the game after a year.

I absolutely agree with your points about needing to have a clear plan and the necessity of exercising good judgement to avoid development hell. I just think you're kind of underestimating the sheer amount of roadblocks involved in bringing even a fairly basic game idea to fruition. Even experienced devs who are beasts at game jams struggle to find success when trying to actually publish games.
This whole discussion illustrates why game development, especially indie game development, is so hard. It's hard enough to just be a competent programmer or writer or artist or project manager or financial manager in the first place, so trying to be all of those at once is going to be a big struggle. And even when you have a team working together it's hard to get the right people for these roles and harder still to get everyone on the same page. And even if you have a good team you have to somehow raise funds from a fanbase that will be clamoring for different things at the same time. And for most indie dev hopefuls their game is a side project that they work on while working and/or studying for a living.
None of that really excuses devs profiting off subscriptions while not making content, but I just wanted to illustrate just how many struggles there are in game development that most people don't know about.

 

[Purple_Heart]

This whole discussion illustrates why game development, especially indie game development, is so hard. It's hard enough to just be a competent programmer or writer or artist or project manager or financial manager in the first place, so trying to be all of those at once is going to be a big struggle.

I don't know about how people see/think game development works but I can say game development is not very hard, developing a game all by yourself is very hard because you are doing everything. Writing code, creating models/sprites, designing ui, designing enemies, implementing gameplay mechanics, creating animations and a lot of other stuff all by yourself.

But to counter this difficulty everything keeps getting easier every day thanks to advancements in technology and tools available for developers, for example trained ai models and convenient to use game engines such as unity and unreal engine.

Take a look at ai models used to draw porn. There is absolutely nothing preventing you or anyone else from using them to create assets for your game. Take a look at unity's latest ai assistant(I forgot its name because it is not out yet, still in closed beta I think) that is integrated into the engine itself. It can not only create assets for your game but also animate them based on your prompts. All you have to do is tell ai what it should do and it does everything for you.

Even if you have no idea what you are doing you can just ask chatgpt(free version) to write codes for your game. It can even teach you basics of programming languages and game engines, you don't need to go to a school or buy online courses for learning programming, those times are gone. It also knows about third party extensions made for those engines. I'm currently using dotween for unity to animate objects in my game and let me tell you something, two months ago I was not even aware of existence of something called "dotween" but now I've learned how to use it and I am using it on my own all thanks to ai. Nowadays I am using it(ai) to learn C# and unity more, rather than searching for solutions online by myself, it almost made google a thing of the past.

So my point is, in short, we are living in a time where game development is easier than ever, there should be less excuses for bad developers, whether they are being bad on purpose or not.

To me liliths throne seems like it already has core gameplay mechanics and characters in place. So, in my eyes most of the work is already done. There is a foundation(whether it is good or bad is another matter) and now all that's left to do is building upon it by adding more content, occasional QoL updates and bugfixes. It really shouldn't be that hard. This is what I think, I am not saying this is what is happening or happened, I didn't even know about this game 2 or 3 weeks ago.

 

[KaiSakurai]

This whole discussion illustrates why game development, especially indie game development, is so hard. It's hard enough to just be a competent programmer or writer or artist or project manager or financial manager in the first place, so trying to be all of those at once is going to be a big struggle.

that may be true, but not entirely applicable here...
- artist: not the case here as the only few images this game has are by others not innoxia.
- financial manager: doing it all alone afaik so no need to pay anyone so only her basic monthly costs. which shouldn't be a problem with minimum of $5k a month income. so not much management needed in that regard.
- project manager: when its only a single person not a team that isnt too hard actually. managing your own workload should be a basic skill of every developer. if you notice that the workload is getting too much then put non-critical things on hold for after the important things are done. from all the comments about her getting sidetracked instead of focussing on the existing roadmap it seems apparent that this is her main problem: she lacks the ability to manage her own workload. and before anyone says "easier said than done. wanna see YOU do better": im a software developer myself. business software. customers arent very patient about bugs or requested features. so i know how important it is to keep your workload in manageable levels and if necessary i push "nice to have" feature requests into a later release.
side content is nice to have but if the main content (basic game mechanics and story) fall behind then you have to adjust your focus. sidequests and rebalancing can be done once the main content is done instead of trying to deal with it at the same time.

 

[KaiSakurai]

I'm currently using dotween for unity to animate objects in my game and let me tell you something, two months ago I was not even aware of existence of something called "dotween" but now I've learned how to use it and I am using it on my own all thanks to ai. Nowadays I am using it to learn C# and unity more, rather than searching for solutions online by myself, it almost made google a thing of the past.

given recent events, if your game isnt too far yet, u should switch from unity to a different engine.
with their current CEO unity cant be trusted anymore.
if you dont know about what occured, there's dozens of videos about it on youtube. u only need to search for "unity" and u already get a dozen videos about how unity destroyed itself.

 

[Purple_Heart]

given recent events, if your game isnt too far yet, u should switch from unity to a different engine.
with their current CEO unity cant be trusted anymore.
if you dont know about what occured, there's dozens of videos about it on youtube. u only need to search for "unity" and u already get a dozen videos about how unity destroyed itself.

If you are talking about unity wanting to charge developers based on installation count, as far as I am aware they reverted their decision but it wouldn't affect me anyway, this is gonna be my first game I doubt I'll sell enough to trigger those kinds of problems

 

[KaiSakurai]

If you are talking about unity wanting to charge developers based on installation count, as far as I am aware they reverted their decision but it wouldn't affect me anyway, this is gonna be my first game I doubt I'll sell enough to trigger those kinds of problems

they reverted it but that this happened at all shows that you cant trust unity anymore. they could come up with more stupid ideas to ruin devlopers (and gamers) at any time. as long as that greedy former EA idiot is the CEO it is suicide to trust that unity wants the best for the developers.

 

[johnysanchez01]

To me liliths throne seems like it already has core gameplay mechanics and characters in place. So, in my eyes most of the work is already done. There is a foundation(whether it is good or bad is another matter) and now all that's left to do is building upon it by adding more content, occasional QoL updates and bugfixes. It really shouldn't be that hard. This is what I think, I am not saying this is what is happening or happened, I didn't even know about this game 2 or 3 weeks ago.

Your points about assets being easier to make aren't wrong, it's just that for LT specifically they don't necessarily apply. LT is fairly unique in the world of h-games and games in general. There aren't too many text-based rpg sandboxes with the level of customization and player choices out there. A sort of relevant comparison would be Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead*, cause even though it technically has graphics the game is mainly based around being a custom character in a world of procedurally generated characters to allow the player to create their own stories. Of course CDDA is a way better game but my point is that games where the goal is to allow for the player to tell stories with custom/procedurally generated characters are difficult undertakings. This is why most h-games rpgs are choose-your-own-adventure stories.
You're using ChatGPT to learn programming which is great but know that even the better programming focused AI models aren't necessarily there yet when it comes to giving accurate, workable code all the time. It's also pretty hit or mix for bugfixing in my experience, but I think there are programming specific AI models coming out to help with that.
The way I see it, this game's main problem isn't the content (or lack thereof), it's the fact that there are too many game systems and mechanics that are irrelevant and unfinished. Trying to build content on this foundation is no doubt going to be challenging cause there are too many moving parts that can break at any time. This is why I think Inno needs to take a good hard look at what mechanics this game really needs, and get rid of everything else.

- project manager: when its only a single person not a team that isnt too hard actually. managing your own workload should be a basic skill of every developer. if you notice that the workload is getting too much then put non-critical things on hold for after the important things are done. from all the comments about her getting sidetracked instead of focussing on the existing roadmap it seems apparent that this is her main problem: she lacks the ability to manage her own workload. and before anyone says "easier said than done. wanna see YOU do better": im a software developer myself. business software. customers arent very patient about bugs or requested features. so i know how important it is to keep your workload in manageable levels and if necessary i push "nice to have" feature requests into a later release.

I have no doubt that you're a way better project manager, but when it comes to creative endeavors like games(especially passion project indie games) the actual project goals are often nebulous and are only really figured out later in development. Inno seems to be an amateur developer who learned programming while developing this game as well, which probably explains why the game does things like updating the status of every single NPC during every single in-game turn/minute(this is insane and probably explains the why this game runs like crap).

Listen, all I'm trying to say here is that I think Inno's lack of output is most likely not the result of intentional grifting but rather from the accumulation of technical debt from the various incomplete/pointless systems in this game which hinder her ability to work on it further. The game is a sandbox but even sandboxes need a good foundation to build content on, and until Inno fixes this foundation it's going to be hard for her to make new content that isn't just inserting someone's custom fursona on some tile somewhere.

*CDDA, while much more complete than LT, actually has numerous development issues which parallel LT, especially concerning the constant addition of half-baked features which don't do much apart from create further technical debt and complexity.

 

[KaiSakurai]

There aren't too many text-based rpg sandboxes with the level of customization and player choices out there. A sort of relevant comparison would be Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead*, cause even though it technically has graphics the game is mainly based around being a custom character in a world of procedurally generated characters to allow the player to create their own stories.

Corruption of Champions I and II

the actual project goals are often nebulous and are only really figured out later in development.

She apparently already has a roadmap. She should stick to it a little more. As other's said: 0.5 was supposed to bring the next lilin encounter while Elis should be done between 0.4 and 0.5. We are at 0.4.9 and Elis only exists as map but has 0 content so far. She strays from her own roadmap too much.

Inno seems to be an amateur developer who learned programming while developing this game as well, which probably explains why the game does things like updating the status of every single NPC during every single in-game turn/minute(this is insane and probably explains the why this game runs like crap).

And why it sometimes just crashes/freezes.

 

[EmDotRand]

Corruption of Champions I and II

No buddy. I've played a decent amount of CoC and a lot of CDDA. When it comes to character customization CoC is a relic compared to the other contenders mentioned.

CoC's customization consists of one piece of armor, one helmet, one set of clothing, a weapon, and a mutation system where you eat random bullshit and hope to RNGesus you don't get fucked. The variety of parts is decent but the fact it's mostly ng means you're likely to create a chimera. The worst of it is negatable by grinding out a perk to avoid loosing your sentience. Unlike LT NPCs actually respond to your appearance outside of sex so that's a bonus. CoC II by what I've played is a bit better with different body slots and dual wielding but still barely at the level of a typical rpg game.

CDDA meanwhile lets you wear multiple layers of clothing on each bodypart. There's an inner, normal, outer, and strapped on layer, each of which can be stacked at the cost of reduced combat efficiency. Some clothes also have attachable pockets and accesories letting you further deck out your look. You can also install cybernetic enhancements and take mutagents although most are mutually exclusive. The main diffence with CDDA's mutations are 1. No genitals without mods and even then they weren't opperable since 0.E's hentai mod, and 2. There's funky hidden stat called instabiity that raises every time you mutate. As it rises so does your chance to get horrific negative mutations ranging from mildly inconvinient to disintergration. Even supposed purifer is a human mutagent meaning this also increases instability. Additionally most mutations are ugly meaning NPCs are more likely to have a fight or flight response to seeing you.

LT meanwhile is kinda decent concerning clothing but nothing too special outside of dye options. However it's absolutly meticulous when it comes to mutatations/transformations. No leaving things to chance: you get to dictate exactly how every bodypart looks, feels, and even tastes. Unfortunatly most encouters completly ignore your appearance to the point you can waltz into the bank dressed in nothing but a coat of jizz and nobody bats an eye. Additionally I wish that race transformations were more genaric compared to the race system. The part flags could be expanded to include more descritions with then culminating into a certiain race. I'm pretty sure there's no difference between a dog arm, griffon arm, lion arm, and bear arm beyond the race description.

Addendum: I've been looking through the source code for CoC I. Besides the fact that reading it doesn't make me want to gut myself like LT's code does, there's also a decent amount of available parts. However, I'd never know from just paying the game because it's locked behind rng.
Addendum 2: Apparently the available clothing for CoC are a piece of armour, a shield, a weapon, and 2 underwear slots.

 

[KaiSakurai]

No buddy. I've played a decent amount of CoC and a lot of CDDA. When it comes to character customization CoC is a relic compared to the other contenders mentioned.

i thought ur "level of customization" was regarding character customization not clothing... depending on how u define "customization" it is either true or false. it may lack clothing but u can customize ur character pretty well.
also u said "player choices" and they definitely got those.

also i googled CDDA and apparently its not even an adult game. its on steam and not blocked in germany so its sfw. thanks, not interested.

 

[EmDotRand]

i thought ur "level of customization" was regarding character customization not clothing... depending on how u define "customization" it is either true or false. it may lack clothing but u can customize ur character pretty well.
also u said "player choices" and they definitely got those.

also i googled CDDA and apparently its not even an adult game. its on steam and not blocked in germany so its sfw. thanks, not interested.

> Includes a game in response.
> Dismisses counter response for reasons not even related to the conversation
> Quotes someone else* and attributes it to opponent.
> Gives zero examples.

And we're done here. Have a good day.
*Edit: Yet another smooth brain moment.

 

[NotAFed2345]

Anybody knows what is currently the best way to gain money?

 

[Sant3224]

Anybody knows what is currently the best way to gain money?

Learn 3 water spells to unlock the skill, then buy any transformative and enchant it up to 100 with cum transformatives (which will be free), save the enchantement so u don't have to click 100 times.

The potions sells up to 3k each

 

[MonWeek]

Anybody knows what is currently the best way to gain money?

What I normally do is go into the darker alleys in Dominion, beat up demons and take their weapons. If you get lucky, you can get rich off of like 2 or 3 fights.