RPGM Abandoned Lily of the Valley [v2.0] [P and P]

[cold_arctus]

But if the devs are not transparent and take too long with each update, there's a constant worry that patrons will leave and the project is going to be dropped or end up being stuck in limbo indefinitely.

In other words, they are selfish and afraid of being ntr'd (Lily gets dropped and a new game appears).

Some are very passionate about this and get frustrated easily but I'd say it's to be expected.

For me it feels that some of them are addicted to adult games and don't know what else they can do when they don't have anything to play.

I know the feeling, sometimes I browse through F95 to find "the ultimate" game featuring all my kinks just to realize that the game is either on-hold, abandoned or next update is months away. However, after joining a dev-team I saw how much time it takes to create a game. Since then I started to respect people working on games. It is an ungrateful job, to be honest.

You can't deny that it's bad PR. I'm just amazed that P&P still get away with their release schedule.

True. It is bad PR. But again, why should I care if and how P&P communicate with their Patrons? (I think what you wrote above answers my question.)

Most devs get flack for delaying for another 2 weeks or worse - a month, let alone taking more than 2 months to develop a single update.

Surprisingly I only see that by pirates on F95 or by non-patrons on Discord. From my own experience as dev-team member or as Mod on Discord the patrons aren't as vocal as the group of pirates/non-patrons. You can delay a game for a month and patrons will tell you that they don't care. Announce a delay on F95 and pirates will call you a scammer/milker who steal their Patrons money. Another observation I made was: high-tier patrons are the most silent group. I personally know a few people who pay $100 each month and some of them don't even care about their rewards (custom render etc.). Non-Patrons on the other hand will start all sort of argument with you, why there wasn't a sex scene with character A, what they want to have in a game and what they don't want to have, why it takes so much time to release an update with 5 min playtime (skipping all dialogues etc..) ... and the list goes on and on...

As long as patrons are satisfied with waiting half a year for an update and not receiving clear explanation for the delay, and the game is going to continue no matter what, then who am I to complain.

Totally agree with that.

 

[BloodyMares]

Surprisingly I only see that by pirates on F95 or by non-patrons on Discord. From my own experience as dev-team member or as Mod on Discord the patrons aren't as vocal as the group of pirates/non-patrons. You can delay a game for a month and patrons will tell you that they don't care. Announce a delay on F95 and pirates will call you a scammer/milker who steal their Patrons money. Another observation I made was: high-tier patrons are the most silent group. I personally know a few people who pay $100 each month and some of them don't even care about their rewards (custom render etc.). Non-Patrons on the other hand will start all sort of argument with you, why there wasn't a sex scene with character A, what they want to have in a game and what they don't want to have, why it takes so much time to release an update with 5 min playtime (skipping all dialogues etc..) ... and the list goes on and on...

It is very surprising. At least when you're a pirate, you can try other stuff to play, the only thing that you invest is your time. But when you're a patron, especially of a high-tier, I would think it's natural to demand that you get your money's worth after months of nothing. I'm not that much surprised by pirates being vocal, but rather by patrons being silent. Are they super-rich and just donate money for the sake of it, even if they get nothing in return? Or do they just silently cancel their pledge after being disappointed and move on? This is the only thing that eludes my understanding. I understand when people support devs who don't release their game in parts each month, but those devs usually take 6 to 12 months to develop an entire game and release it once it's ready and polished (like Tora Productions).

 

[DimitarM12]

i mean, they can trash talk, but they can't say anything about the update... what a donkeys

 

[cold_arctus]

Are they super-rich and just donate money for the sake of it, even if they get nothing in return? Or do they just silently cancel their pledge after being disappointed and move on? This is the only thing that eludes my understanding.

Believe me or not but high-tier Patrons, $25 and above per month, are the most royal supporters a dev has (the core group of supporters). They rarely change their tiers compare to low-tiers, who switch tiers between $1 and $25 or cancel their support completely in between updates.

I once tried to get in touch with a $100 supporter but he ignored all my private messages. Same for dev trying to contact him about his custom render request. No response. And he continues to pay $100 each month without saying a word. Another high-tier patron told me that he likes the art and consider his pledge as commission fee for his custom render. And yes, he has a good paying job and pledged already over $1,000 to the dev. A $25 tier patron told me that he supports a few other dev at the same time - each month $400 to $500 in total.

Those guys are the real people who are responsible that devs can continue to work on the game. Upgrading their hardware to create images with more details in it and render faster. Otherwise all games would have grainy renders with less details in it. (However, seeing the high demand for "crunched/compressed" game here I'm not surprised that people are not interested in quality but actually in quantity.) More renders, more updates... Let's be honest here, those guys would also fap to a stick-figure if they ares labeled as "mom" and "son".

Having this first hand experience I think the pirate's accusation of milking/scamming their patrons is no longer valid. Of course they are exceptions for a few special devs, but the majority of devs aren't milker/scammer or lazy.

 

[Gr8Dumper]

Believe me or not but high-tier Patrons, $25 and above per month, are the most royal supporters a dev has (the core group of supporters). They rarely change their tiers compare to low-tiers, who switch tiers between $1 and $25 or cancel their support completely in between updates.

I once tried to get in touch with a $100 supporter but he ignored all my private messages. Same for dev trying to contact him about his custom render request. No response. And he continues to pay $100 each month without saying a word. Another high-tier patron told me that he likes the art and consider his pledge as commission fee for his custom render. And yes, he has a good paying job and pledged already over $1,000 to the dev. A $25 tier patron told me that he supports a few other dev at the same time - each month $400 to $500 in total.

Those guys are the real people who are responsible that devs can continue to work on the game. Upgrading their hardware to create images with more details in it and render faster. Otherwise all games would have grainy renders with less details in it. (However, seeing the high demand for "crunched/compressed" game here I'm not surprised that people are not interested in quality but actually in quantity.) More renders, more updates... Let's be honest here, those guys would also fap to a stick-figure if they ares labeled as "mom" and "son".

Having this first hand experience I think the pirate's accusation of milking/scamming their patrons is no longer valid. Of course they are exceptions for a few special devs, but the majority of devs aren't milker/scammer or lazy.

I suspected that this was the case (that it's the real angel Patrons that funds the game developers) but had little data to support it.
$500-$800 a month for a patron like that is not a lot of money if you make $x00k/year.
Honestly, they just want the dev to do what they do and be successful and they think of themselves as an angel investor.
Their return is (besides the obvious sexual satisfaction) to have the satisfaction of seeing a game they love being developed and successful. That's enough for them - don't need the extra money. Does not matter if the developer is late a few months - they are busy at work anyway. They just want it right.

 

[cold_arctus]

$500-$800 a month for a patron like that is not a lot of money if you make $x00k/year.
Honestly, they just want the dev to do what they do and be successful and they think of themselves as an angel investor.

If I had millions or billions of Euros/Dollars (cash) I would buy a render farm for the dev. Just to make sure that dev can render a gangbang scene within a minute.

Would a render farm shorten the time between updates? I'm not so sure about it. Sure he/they could render faster, but posing + postwork would take the same time as before. Only option to optimize this would be to hire a second artist who as the same skill set, or better, as the original artist.

 

[Pogo123]

what they could do is to write in their serbian language and put it into google translator xD and instead of saying when i might come out, they could tell us what scenes we can expect for sure and how many.

i mean, we know already now that stipp scene and tv scene will happen, aswell as fred scene but will these be bigger scenes? how many renders? and what other scenes? maybe this could calm some tits ya know

 

[Gr8Dumper]

If I had millions or billions of Euros/Dollars (cash) I would buy a render farm for the dev. Just to make sure that dev can render a gangbang scene within a minute.

Would a render farm shorten the time between updates? I'm not so sure about it. Sure he/they could render faster, but posing + postwork would take the same time as before. Only option to optimize this would be to hire a second artist who as the same skill set, or better, as the original artist.

H/w isn't the issue. It's about people. It's the rare creative artistic talent that you find in the graphics and story telling that makes a great game. Everything else can be solved with money, but talent that's the key. You find it by looking many game developers. Once you found the talent then you put your chips on that talented team. Like in all business it about finding the talented people.

 

[cold_arctus]

how many renders? and what other scenes?

What kind of information do you get from knowing the numbers of renders? Is the number only for static renders or including animation? For a 5 sec. animation you need at least 150 renders.

Announcing the numbers of renders always has the charm of a dick competition between devs. "Look I have the largest numbers...". The number of renders is not an indicator for quality. You can have 1,000 renders but 3/4 of them are front shots without any details.

 

[Wingman666]

"you reap what you sow" P and P
SO dont hope to much with u work like this pathetic

 

[Pogo123]

What kind of information do you get from knowing the numbers of renders? Is the number only for static renders or including animation? For a 5 sec. animation you need at least 150 renders.

Announcing the numbers of renders always has the charm of a dick competition between devs. "Look I have the largest numbers...". The number of renders is not an indicator for quality. You can have 1,000 renders but 3/4 of them are front shots without any details.

oh. i asked for it cause many mention this and didn't know the details and how less meaning this numbers have thanks

but i would still at least throw some numbers around to keep the mass calm.

 

[Creeping Death]

What are you talking about guys. There is no language problem, or render problem. The thing most people who complain annoys is the matter of fact that they delay the releases for years now!
Human beings have the ability to learn from faults and something is very strange if someone does the same thing, release for release, year after year. So it is by intent.
Because you don't need to speak english very well, or need a mega hyper giga render farm etc. to tell nearly realisitc release dates. And after you have missed a release date two or three times completely you should have learned not to promise release dates you did never ever accomplish. There are always unexpected things delaying a release. But this is normally the exception and not the standard.
But what would happen if they tell reasonable release dates? Even some of the most naive patreons would check what's going on. "Hey guys, release will take at least two more months." Oh, hm, then I cancel my subscription for two months (after already waited four months)!
Also no need to create a feeling to have pity on them, because as mentioned above, after years of releases you don't need to be superhuman or speak english very well to tell people half-way reasonable release dates.

You all would be surprised how updates (for many many other games included) come every month. If only patreon would allow to charge money on a new release. There was one fair dev, DynamiteRedGames with Valiant Warrior Astrid, he only charged money when he finally released a new update.

 

[cold_arctus]

oh. i asked for it cause many mention this and didn't know the details and how less meaning this numbers have thanks

but i would still at least throw some numbers around to keep the mass calm.

I'm not saying you are wrong. Of course you can use the numbers of renders as indicator for something. At the same time you can compare them with other devs as many people do it. But ask yourself: Are NLT's renders comparable with P&P? In absolute numbers yes. But as soon as you look into the details such as render machine, render technique, render software, you will have a different result.

To continue the NLT example, you will see that NLT use a different software (3dsMax) and not Daz (P&P). NLT also use overlays instead "hard-renderd" images. Means, he use one image and puts different overlays on them to make them appear different (e.g. hair, mouth movement etc.). In case of DrPinkCake most of his renders are frontal shots and he doesn't postwork (photoshop) all of his renders. There are many mistakes in his renders (wrong light, colors, posing etc.) too. Not everyone notice them, because they are not noticeable for noobs other artist can spot them right away.

Even if you compare the absolute numbers of renders between devs you can't really tell Dev A is better than Dev B. Because the result is your personal preference and not based on a standardized measurement board.

 

[Gr8Dumper]

What are you talking about guys. There is no language problem, or render problem. The thing most people who complain annoys is the matter of fact that they delay the releases for years now!
Human beings have the ability to learn from faults and something is very strange if someone does the same thing, release for release, year after year. So it is by intent.
Because you don't need to speak english very well, or need a mega hyper giga render farm etc. to tell nearly realisitc release dates. And after you have missed a release date two or three times completely you should have learned not to promise release dates you did never ever accomplish. There are always unexpected things delaying a release. But this is normally the exception and not the standard.
But what would happen if they tell reasonable release dates? Even some of the most naive patreons would check what's going on. "Hey guys, release will take at least two more months." Oh, hm, then I cancel my subscription for two months (after already waited four months)!
Also no need to create a feeling to have pity on them, because as mentioned above. After years of releases you don't need to be superhuman or speak english very well to tell people half-way reasonable release dates.

two different things:
1. ability to estimate a release date - if you were a developer you would know how hard this is... especially it you are dealing with art and artist - it's already hard with just s/w.
2. ability to engage in a lots of back and forth and articulate your self well in English discussing with sometimes very people hostile people and win those arguments. Imagine doing that in a language you do not master. For me that would be in French on a French speaking forum. i mean if this was a warm and fuzzy forum i think it would maybe work ok for P and P but it's not! Every single time P and P shows up here it goes fucking hostile on them.

 

[BloodyMares]

two different things:
1. ability to estimate a release date - if you were a developer you would know how hard this is... especially it you are dealing with art and artist - it's already hard with just s/w.

It's hard at first. But basic math works. Let's say I'm the newbie creator. and I think that I can finish my task in 1 month and set-up the deadline. However, I overestimated my ability or didn't account for something else, and the release is delayed. Then, for my next update, I would take 2 months instead and set-up the new deadline. If even that is not enough, I would aim for 3 with the next one. Etc, etc. The thing is, P&P are not newbie creators and are in the game for several years already, and they should already know by now how many months they need for each update and aim for that date instead.

 

[fred75]

two different things:
1. ability to estimate a release date - if you were a developer you would know how hard this is... especially it you are dealing with art and artist - it's already hard with just s/w.
2. ability to engage in a lots of back and forth and articulate your self well in English discussing with sometimes very people hostile people and win those arguments. Imagine doing that in a language you do not master. For me that would be in French on a French speaking forum. i mean if this was a warm and fuzzy forum i think it would maybe work ok for P and P but it's not! Every single time P and P shows up here it goes fucking hostile on them.

Just ignore them Gr8Dumper ,just let them yapping until they satisfied..

 

[omarsayed]

I'm not saying you are wrong. Of course you can use the numbers of renders as indicator for something. At the same time you can compare them with other devs as many people do it. But ask yourself: Are NLT's renders comparable with P&P? In absolute numbers yes. But as soon as you look into the details such as render machine, render technique, render software, you will have a different result.

To continue the NLT example, you will see that NLT use a different software (3dsMax) and not Daz (P&P). NLT also use overlays instead "hard-renderd" images. Means, he use one image and puts different overlays on them to make them appear different (e.g. hair, mouth movement etc.). In case of DrPinkCake most of his renders are frontal shots and he doesn't postwork (photoshop) all of his renders. There are many mistakes in his renders (wrong light, colors, posing etc.) too. Not everyone notice them, because the not noticeable for noobs other artist can spot them right away.

Even if you compare the absolute numbers of renders between devs you can't really tell Dev A is better than Dev B. Because the result is your personal preference and not based on a standardized measurement board.

as an architecture designer who use 3dsmax daily i can conform every word you said.
most of people don't pay much attentions to this details unless you are a developer yourself
which is why i may not like of the way p&p handle some things but i diffidently respect there game an put it way ahead of some other famous game on this site .

 

[Mariano95]

Honestly I don't feel disappointed (even if I'm a patreon) because I'm waiting to see the "final result" before talking. We're waiting for a long time and we had to deal with a lot of delays, but I'm not mad at P/P because maybe this update will be awesome, maybe we will see a lot of new renders and 8 animations. In this case personally I will be glad of the waiting time because il will be worth. On the other hand as someone said before, if after all his time the update will have just a couple of new renders and only 3 animations, well, in that case I will be disappointed.
For the ones who are talking trash about the game, saying "it's not even in my top 20" I would like to see their toplist, 'cos a lot of games just suck, and don't forget that a lot of you are playing this game for free.

 

[Gr8Dumper]

It's hard at first. But basic math works. Let's say I'm the newbie creator. and I think that I can finish my task in 1 month and set-up the deadline. However, I overestimated my ability or didn't account for something else, and the release is delayed. Then, for my next update, I would take 2 months instead and set-up the new deadline. If even that is not enough, I would aim for 3 with the next one. Etc, etc. The thing is, P&P are not newbie creators and are in the game for several years already, and they should already know by now how many months they need for each update and aim for that date instead.

And you know this how? Have you run a development team with s/w developers and artists etc.
Artist change their mind, add things, through away work because it was not good enough for them. They go back redo things because thy are not satisfied. It's not linear. Art work takes time especially if you have self-respecting standards.
and in this release they decided to add one more scene when they were basically done because it was not good enough for them.
But in the end we will see how it turns out.

 

[cold_arctus]

it's not even in my top 20" I would like to see their toplist, 'cos a lot of games just suck, and don't forget that a lot of you are playing this game for free.

I may have played 20+ games but I wouldn't know were to start to rank them. Non of them are worth to be in my top 10. No matter if Being a DIK, Lust Epidemic... Most games in the "trending games" section aren't as good as people say they are (imho.).