RPGM Abandoned Lily of the Valley [v2.0] [P and P]

[Gr8Dumper]

Believe me or not but high-tier Patrons, $25 and above per month, are the most royal supporters a dev has (the core group of supporters). They rarely change their tiers compare to low-tiers, who switch tiers between $1 and $25 or cancel their support completely in between updates.

I once tried to get in touch with a $100 supporter but he ignored all my private messages. Same for dev trying to contact him about his custom render request. No response. And he continues to pay $100 each month without saying a word. Another high-tier patron told me that he likes the art and consider his pledge as commission fee for his custom render. And yes, he has a good paying job and pledged already over $1,000 to the dev. A $25 tier patron told me that he supports a few other dev at the same time - each month $400 to $500 in total.

Those guys are the real people who are responsible that devs can continue to work on the game. Upgrading their hardware to create images with more details in it and render faster. Otherwise all games would have grainy renders with less details in it. (However, seeing the high demand for "crunched/compressed" game here I'm not surprised that people are not interested in quality but actually in quantity.) More renders, more updates... Let's be honest here, those guys would also fap to a stick-figure if they ares labeled as "mom" and "son".

Having this first hand experience I think the pirate's accusation of milking/scamming their patrons is no longer valid. Of course they are exceptions for a few special devs, but the majority of devs aren't milker/scammer or lazy.

I suspected that this was the case (that it's the real angel Patrons that funds the game developers) but had little data to support it.
$500-$800 a month for a patron like that is not a lot of money if you make $x00k/year.
Honestly, they just want the dev to do what they do and be successful and they think of themselves as an angel investor.
Their return is (besides the obvious sexual satisfaction) to have the satisfaction of seeing a game they love being developed and successful. That's enough for them - don't need the extra money. Does not matter if the developer is late a few months - they are busy at work anyway. They just want it right.

 

[cold_arctus]

$500-$800 a month for a patron like that is not a lot of money if you make $x00k/year.
Honestly, they just want the dev to do what they do and be successful and they think of themselves as an angel investor.

If I had millions or billions of Euros/Dollars (cash) I would buy a render farm for the dev. Just to make sure that dev can render a gangbang scene within a minute.

Would a render farm shorten the time between updates? I'm not so sure about it. Sure he/they could render faster, but posing + postwork would take the same time as before. Only option to optimize this would be to hire a second artist who as the same skill set, or better, as the original artist.

 

[Pogo123]

what they could do is to write in their serbian language and put it into google translator xD and instead of saying when i might come out, they could tell us what scenes we can expect for sure and how many.

i mean, we know already now that stipp scene and tv scene will happen, aswell as fred scene but will these be bigger scenes? how many renders? and what other scenes? maybe this could calm some tits ya know

 

[Gr8Dumper]

If I had millions or billions of Euros/Dollars (cash) I would buy a render farm for the dev. Just to make sure that dev can render a gangbang scene within a minute.

Would a render farm shorten the time between updates? I'm not so sure about it. Sure he/they could render faster, but posing + postwork would take the same time as before. Only option to optimize this would be to hire a second artist who as the same skill set, or better, as the original artist.

H/w isn't the issue. It's about people. It's the rare creative artistic talent that you find in the graphics and story telling that makes a great game. Everything else can be solved with money, but talent that's the key. You find it by looking many game developers. Once you found the talent then you put your chips on that talented team. Like in all business it about finding the talented people.

 

[cold_arctus]

how many renders? and what other scenes?

What kind of information do you get from knowing the numbers of renders? Is the number only for static renders or including animation? For a 5 sec. animation you need at least 150 renders.

Announcing the numbers of renders always has the charm of a dick competition between devs. "Look I have the largest numbers...". The number of renders is not an indicator for quality. You can have 1,000 renders but 3/4 of them are front shots without any details.

 

[Wingman666]

"you reap what you sow" P and P
SO dont hope to much with u work like this pathetic

 

[Pogo123]

What kind of information do you get from knowing the numbers of renders? Is the number only for static renders or including animation? For a 5 sec. animation you need at least 150 renders.

Announcing the numbers of renders always has the charm of a dick competition between devs. "Look I have the largest numbers...". The number of renders is not an indicator for quality. You can have 1,000 renders but 3/4 of them are front shots without any details.

oh. i asked for it cause many mention this and didn't know the details and how less meaning this numbers have thanks

but i would still at least throw some numbers around to keep the mass calm.

 

[Creeping Death]

What are you talking about guys. There is no language problem, or render problem. The thing most people who complain annoys is the matter of fact that they delay the releases for years now!
Human beings have the ability to learn from faults and something is very strange if someone does the same thing, release for release, year after year. So it is by intent.
Because you don't need to speak english very well, or need a mega hyper giga render farm etc. to tell nearly realisitc release dates. And after you have missed a release date two or three times completely you should have learned not to promise release dates you did never ever accomplish. There are always unexpected things delaying a release. But this is normally the exception and not the standard.
But what would happen if they tell reasonable release dates? Even some of the most naive patreons would check what's going on. "Hey guys, release will take at least two more months." Oh, hm, then I cancel my subscription for two months (after already waited four months)!
Also no need to create a feeling to have pity on them, because as mentioned above, after years of releases you don't need to be superhuman or speak english very well to tell people half-way reasonable release dates.

You all would be surprised how updates (for many many other games included) come every month. If only patreon would allow to charge money on a new release. There was one fair dev, DynamiteRedGames with Valiant Warrior Astrid, he only charged money when he finally released a new update.

 

[cold_arctus]

oh. i asked for it cause many mention this and didn't know the details and how less meaning this numbers have thanks

but i would still at least throw some numbers around to keep the mass calm.

I'm not saying you are wrong. Of course you can use the numbers of renders as indicator for something. At the same time you can compare them with other devs as many people do it. But ask yourself: Are NLT's renders comparable with P&P? In absolute numbers yes. But as soon as you look into the details such as render machine, render technique, render software, you will have a different result.

To continue the NLT example, you will see that NLT use a different software (3dsMax) and not Daz (P&P). NLT also use overlays instead "hard-renderd" images. Means, he use one image and puts different overlays on them to make them appear different (e.g. hair, mouth movement etc.). In case of DrPinkCake most of his renders are frontal shots and he doesn't postwork (photoshop) all of his renders. There are many mistakes in his renders (wrong light, colors, posing etc.) too. Not everyone notice them, because they are not noticeable for noobs other artist can spot them right away.

Even if you compare the absolute numbers of renders between devs you can't really tell Dev A is better than Dev B. Because the result is your personal preference and not based on a standardized measurement board.

 

[Gr8Dumper]

What are you talking about guys. There is no language problem, or render problem. The thing most people who complain annoys is the matter of fact that they delay the releases for years now!
Human beings have the ability to learn from faults and something is very strange if someone does the same thing, release for release, year after year. So it is by intent.
Because you don't need to speak english very well, or need a mega hyper giga render farm etc. to tell nearly realisitc release dates. And after you have missed a release date two or three times completely you should have learned not to promise release dates you did never ever accomplish. There are always unexpected things delaying a release. But this is normally the exception and not the standard.
But what would happen if they tell reasonable release dates? Even some of the most naive patreons would check what's going on. "Hey guys, release will take at least two more months." Oh, hm, then I cancel my subscription for two months (after already waited four months)!
Also no need to create a feeling to have pity on them, because as mentioned above. After years of releases you don't need to be superhuman or speak english very well to tell people half-way reasonable release dates.

two different things:
1. ability to estimate a release date - if you were a developer you would know how hard this is... especially it you are dealing with art and artist - it's already hard with just s/w.
2. ability to engage in a lots of back and forth and articulate your self well in English discussing with sometimes very people hostile people and win those arguments. Imagine doing that in a language you do not master. For me that would be in French on a French speaking forum. i mean if this was a warm and fuzzy forum i think it would maybe work ok for P and P but it's not! Every single time P and P shows up here it goes fucking hostile on them.

 

[BloodyMares]

two different things:
1. ability to estimate a release date - if you were a developer you would know how hard this is... especially it you are dealing with art and artist - it's already hard with just s/w.

It's hard at first. But basic math works. Let's say I'm the newbie creator. and I think that I can finish my task in 1 month and set-up the deadline. However, I overestimated my ability or didn't account for something else, and the release is delayed. Then, for my next update, I would take 2 months instead and set-up the new deadline. If even that is not enough, I would aim for 3 with the next one. Etc, etc. The thing is, P&P are not newbie creators and are in the game for several years already, and they should already know by now how many months they need for each update and aim for that date instead.

 

[fred75]

two different things:
1. ability to estimate a release date - if you were a developer you would know how hard this is... especially it you are dealing with art and artist - it's already hard with just s/w.
2. ability to engage in a lots of back and forth and articulate your self well in English discussing with sometimes very people hostile people and win those arguments. Imagine doing that in a language you do not master. For me that would be in French on a French speaking forum. i mean if this was a warm and fuzzy forum i think it would maybe work ok for P and P but it's not! Every single time P and P shows up here it goes fucking hostile on them.

Just ignore them Gr8Dumper ,just let them yapping until they satisfied..

 

[omarsayed]

I'm not saying you are wrong. Of course you can use the numbers of renders as indicator for something. At the same time you can compare them with other devs as many people do it. But ask yourself: Are NLT's renders comparable with P&P? In absolute numbers yes. But as soon as you look into the details such as render machine, render technique, render software, you will have a different result.

To continue the NLT example, you will see that NLT use a different software (3dsMax) and not Daz (P&P). NLT also use overlays instead "hard-renderd" images. Means, he use one image and puts different overlays on them to make them appear different (e.g. hair, mouth movement etc.). In case of DrPinkCake most of his renders are frontal shots and he doesn't postwork (photoshop) all of his renders. There are many mistakes in his renders (wrong light, colors, posing etc.) too. Not everyone notice them, because the not noticeable for noobs other artist can spot them right away.

Even if you compare the absolute numbers of renders between devs you can't really tell Dev A is better than Dev B. Because the result is your personal preference and not based on a standardized measurement board.

as an architecture designer who use 3dsmax daily i can conform every word you said.
most of people don't pay much attentions to this details unless you are a developer yourself
which is why i may not like of the way p&p handle some things but i diffidently respect there game an put it way ahead of some other famous game on this site .

 

[Mariano95]

Honestly I don't feel disappointed (even if I'm a patreon) because I'm waiting to see the "final result" before talking. We're waiting for a long time and we had to deal with a lot of delays, but I'm not mad at P/P because maybe this update will be awesome, maybe we will see a lot of new renders and 8 animations. In this case personally I will be glad of the waiting time because il will be worth. On the other hand as someone said before, if after all his time the update will have just a couple of new renders and only 3 animations, well, in that case I will be disappointed.
For the ones who are talking trash about the game, saying "it's not even in my top 20" I would like to see their toplist, 'cos a lot of games just suck, and don't forget that a lot of you are playing this game for free.

 

[Gr8Dumper]

It's hard at first. But basic math works. Let's say I'm the newbie creator. and I think that I can finish my task in 1 month and set-up the deadline. However, I overestimated my ability or didn't account for something else, and the release is delayed. Then, for my next update, I would take 2 months instead and set-up the new deadline. If even that is not enough, I would aim for 3 with the next one. Etc, etc. The thing is, P&P are not newbie creators and are in the game for several years already, and they should already know by now how many months they need for each update and aim for that date instead.

And you know this how? Have you run a development team with s/w developers and artists etc.
Artist change their mind, add things, through away work because it was not good enough for them. They go back redo things because thy are not satisfied. It's not linear. Art work takes time especially if you have self-respecting standards.
and in this release they decided to add one more scene when they were basically done because it was not good enough for them.
But in the end we will see how it turns out.

 

[cold_arctus]

it's not even in my top 20" I would like to see their toplist, 'cos a lot of games just suck, and don't forget that a lot of you are playing this game for free.

I may have played 20+ games but I wouldn't know were to start to rank them. Non of them are worth to be in my top 10. No matter if Being a DIK, Lust Epidemic... Most games in the "trending games" section aren't as good as people say they are (imho.).

 

[BloodyMares]

And you know this how? Have you run a development team with s/w developers and artists etc.
Artist change their mind, add things, through away work because it was not good enough for them. They go back redo things because thy are not satisfied. It's not linear. Art work takes time especially if you have self-respecting standards.
and in this release they decided to add one more scene when they were basically done because it was not good enough for them.

I know one thing or two about time management. If you need to redo things, you don't have to cram everything in 1 update and delay it over and over. Need to revise something? Sure, go ahead. But time your effort so you can release something in time. Okay, let me tell you about the kick-ass developer Eva Kiss. She developed Good Girl Gone Bad before and now is doing Our Red String (my signature). She releases her updates monthly. If she needs to rework something, like add a couple of scenes or introduce a new variable, she does it in the next update, after releasing the first update in time. And her games have many more routes and variables than Lily, to the point that they feel like Bioware RPGs with the number of different routes you can go for. So, ask yourself a question: Why can she time her work and release her updates monthly without delays while P&P struggle to release a single update in half a year? If the devs are indecisive and waste their time reworking stuff over and over again, then who is to blame for that?

 

[Gr8Dumper]

I know one thing or two about time management. If you need to redo things, you don't have to cram everything in 1 update and delay it over and over. Need to revise something? Sure, go ahead. But time your effort so you can release something in time. Okay, let me tell you about the kick-ass developer Eva Kiss. She developed Good Girl Gone Bad before and now is doing Our Red String (my signature). She releases her updates monthly. If she needs to rework something, like add a couple of scenes or introduce a new variable, she does it in the next update, after releasing the first update in time. And her games have many more routes and variables than Lily, to the point that they feel like Bioware RPGs with the number of different routes you can go for. So, ask yourself a question: Why can she time her work and release her updates monthly without delays while P&P struggle to release a single update in half a year? If the devs are indecisive and waste their time reworking stuff over and over again, then who is to blame for that?

repeating older post but here we go again anyway...

We don't know what's behind the scenes at Eva could be a bigger team as well - at $7500 you can go full time or/and affort a small team...
Sure you can find developers that crank out more releases like NLT with 2 release/month (but as cold_arctus said the quality is not the same) and they make a lot more money so they can afford full time team.
At $1500/month P and P can not work full time on the game => they have day jobs and LotV is a hobby they spend 100% (or close to - my estimate) part of there spare time on.
simple math.

but this is the same discussion we've had so, so, so many times on why things the way they are...

 

[penmaster]

wow! this attitude, it's incredible! dude, either you guys are the unluckiest developpers on earth, either you are lying again and again. Sorry, but here you have so much support, most of the guys here had you back. in the last 3 days more people start talking more critically (but with humor) about your delays and you appear here and again talk trash, say nothing, and give zero transparency. People like me, that are upset on how you deliver your content are a minority here, usually keep in silence by enthusiastic guys who no matter what are prepare to give you an excuse. So at least for these guys (although i am not sharing their view) be nice and transparent. TALK TO THE PEOPLE AND STOP LYING!

I was just replying to another guy in asking, discussing issues do crop up that's why the update gets delayed or probably they are working on other projects. I'm not sure if the developer is being rude towards me or angry.

 

[penmaster]

i have been supporting you guys for more than 2 years and i know problems happens and delays can happens also
the thing is you need to tell us when you have a problems so people understand but you go in complete silent mode
otherwise you have to know people love the game so much they just cant wait lol.
if you communicate more with us ..people wont b this mad knowing whats coming.
i wish you guys all the best and i hope to see lily for many updates to come..i will keep on supporting you always ....we all just hope to see more of lily thats the problem

If your pointing at me. I'm not being mad or behaving badly at anybody neither pointing out a particular developer. I'm just trying to reason out and conversate with people here.