- May 31, 2018
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I will not say that I am an expert on legal issues, but as far as I know, parodies are allowed if they are offered for free and are not made for the purpose of earning money.
Although, if in the future - the developers in this forum thread do plan to sell their game - their actions are more than understandable, why they decided to * hide * Krystal.
True, you don't need to be such expert to have some basic knowledge like for one example you gave, being a Michelin Star Chef to know some meat was overcooked from some random restaurant, but you do need to be one (expert or name it as you want, basicily something more that random guy/girl) to know more about it how it was made with what quality , what seasoning was used, what other stuff did he add to make it, can you tell all that ?
What im trying to explain here ? that if you have no knowledge about something and you compare 1 thing to other like 2 different types of games here then your comment/criticism have same value as your knowledge about those stuff.
It's easy as always for people to say some crap about something when all they know is just 1/10 if not less about something that was created in a different way , more complicated that the other one.
- Mar 11, 2018
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Its not so much the medium as a 2D character, but not using the name Krystal to both sell your product and also be that character.
You could certainly use Krystal as a name, but not also when the character is a blue fox who looks suspiciously like their blue fox also named Krystal.
It can very quickly turn into lawyer fees, and really for a porn game on Patreon thumbing your nose at Nintendo is probably not the smartest thing to do if you want to keep rolling in those Patreon dollars.
By no longer using "Krystal" and also providing significant character appearance modifications the player can do on the MC, I'd say they are probably safe at this point. But I'm not a lawyer, so take that with a grain of salt.
- Mar 11, 2018
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This is actually where a lot of people end up running afoul during development of some big project.
"We're not charging money, it's free!"
Is not something that gives you freedom to do whatever you want with an IP. Usually they won't go so far as to sue for money, but you will get a C&D.
Understand that it's not about how much money you earn, it's about how damaging your product may be to both present and future sales of the owning parties IP. All they need to do is prove that your product had swayed some people's view of that piece of IP and they win, and for the most part, you can't prove that your game/product didn't inspire somebody to think something about the primary IP holders product.
What this ultimately means is you'll get a C&D, probably years into development, and you'll be forced to scrap everything, and you'll probably lose the motivator complete that project, and it just goes away. You could fight it with lawyers, but you won't win, and then you'll have to pay both your lawyer fees and probably theirs as well, and you'll just get financially destroyed.
And what this should boil into is if you have an idea, and it relies on some other IP, figure out how to be more of a loose homage to that property rather than say "This is my Metal Gear Solid game!"
Maybe it can be Plastic Strut Gold or something and the main character is named Lizard and he happens to like wearing bandanas.
- Jun 5, 2017
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Oh dear God. Is this the new Krystal?
I actually wanted to download the game and see if the demo is actually as, mmmm, disappointing, as is claimed here, but I looks get a fail right from the bat. I can only hope that mechanics and shit like that will be decent enough to show that this new project isn’t a total failure. Though, who knows, maybe it’ll look better with time. Right?
- Mar 11, 2018
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Oh, also, if you ask "well what about artists and all the rule 34?" That is a bit different because it's a different medium.
Proving a picture has wrecked the sales of your video game is a harder (not impossible mind you) task to achieve. Usually when things like this happens it's because the owner of that IP is in the same industry.
It's like if you suddenly decided to redraw Hello Kitty and sell it Sanrio will core you sideways.
When you make a video game, and the original IP is also making video game(s), then you are both in the same court and more likely to be targeted because it's much easier to prove how you are directly hurting their own products.
Proving a picture has wrecked the sales of your video game is a harder (not impossible mind you) task to achieve. Usually when things like this happens it's because the owner of that IP is in the same industry.
It's like if you suddenly decided to redraw Hello Kitty and sell it Sanrio will core you sideways.
When you make a video game, and the original IP is also making video game(s), then you are both in the same court and more likely to be targeted because it's much easier to prove how you are directly hurting their own products.
- Jun 5, 2017
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It is indeed not quite ‘nice’ attitude to throw much shit on the creators, but, a big BUTT!, the problem is - they did fuck up and they get exactly what would happen when annoying shit like a remake appears.You are correct.
I've been on both sides of this coin in a lot of cases though.
One of the saddest things to do is to work on something for a long time and instead of getting a "wow this is great!" you get a "this is just ok" or even worse a "wow this is terrible".
I think right now they are getting little great, mediocre ok, and probably more terrible than they'd otherwise feel happy with. Plus it's a WIP, a very early stage development. To their fault they probably should not have called it a 1.0.x anything, but something starting with a 0.x.
Defensiveness is going to happen, and that's just human nature. "You do it better then!" is one of those defensive mechanisms when you just want people to understand that, even if something isn't great, it still takes a long time to make something that's not great. Making games is not easy, and ultimately it's the consumer's who need to approve it all or it doesn't matter how long it took to make something; the end result was a failure.
Why is it annoying? Why is it their fault? Well, Remake is kinda a taboo word already on the FZone, since 90% of remakes were proven to be just a milking scheme of different magnitudes and/or failed attempts at going beyond creators’ abilities. Second, people here probably expected a nice ‘complete’ (we all know previous game wouldn’t be completed, but there was some nice progress) game, since it had some content, looked relatively polished and was going into right direction. But, well, they get a scrape of the project and some tech demo made by someone else on that basis. It’s a big red flag for many people just as much as the word ‘Rebirth/Remake/etc.’ itself.
and last but not least - creators, for some reason, never learn as simple thing. You’ll only get angry people for putting teach demo up AND naming it 1.0.1. It’s a disgusting tactic of making something less appear as more. We all know not to trust these numbers anyway, but, well, even if we know it, it would appeal more if it was shown clearly that this game right now is an empty husk and nothing more. Honesty can go a long way in a place were consumers are getting scammed by most
- Mar 11, 2018
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You bring up an excellent point.
There are multiple types of critique that developers need to be open to, such as, but not limited to:
1: User critique
2: Professional critique
User critique is ultimately going to be the hardest on you and it will negatively impact how people view your product, and will hurt you the most in the long run. It should be the most important to you if you want something successful.
Professional critique is going to be more cutting to you because they're going to point out technical issues and flaws and things that maybe you just plain screwed up.
Quite often you can get a dose of user and professional mixed together, and people can and will use their technical knowledge of other similar products to compare against your own. This is because there have been some good standards set by other similar products people come to expect, and if they don't get them you're going to upset them.
For this game, a very very big target is "it's a porn game, and you're not focusing on the porn".
That's both technical and user. People expect the porn to be good and plenty and come fast and hard and not be hard to do. You can change that, but you've also got to start off that way.
The weak aspect to this game is that the "previous" iterations of it that were scrapped did not feature all or even some of the non-porn things this new version has and is trying to do.
You gave an expectation (we're the new and Improved Legend of Krystal!), a game that a lot of people already have a concept of in their mind of what that will be. Things like cooking, and combat, and a day night cycle, and party members and complex inventory management... etc... do not necessarily spring to mind immediately.
The developers have basically laid down a stake to indicate "we will make this product you want!" and somewhere in there the product is not at all what people are expecting.
Because of that, user anguish will be high, and because this is like the 3rd remake of it or something, you're going to get clobbered in the technical as well. You basically can't avoid it at this point, and just continuing development is going to cause dissatisfaction until your development direction falls more in line with what people want to see from the product from past experiences.
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- Mar 11, 2018
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lol
As you were writing this I was writing my other comment, which sort of backtracks on this exact thing. And you are 110% correct.
- Jun 5, 2017
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Just noticed, yeah, it’s a bit awkward. My post order was fucked up and I didn’t see half the recent messages. Oh well.lol
As you were writing this I was writing my other comment, which sort of backtracks on this exact thing. And you are 110% correct.
anyway. Whatever the creators are making sounds all good and fancy, but until they show that it is EXACTLY as they make it out to be, they’ll get hate, it’s inevitable. It’s just how it is.
also, I’m really curious how thecumshots will look since they’ll spend a whole week making the cum ?animations?
- Mar 11, 2018
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My opinion is the cum will look like an artistic masterpiece, but it will be too detailed and awkward and will look too uncanny. I also haven't seen them do a good job yet with the spine animation system to believe that it will animate well, so it will probably also be poorly animated.
- Jun 5, 2017
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This project has too many red flags. It’s that simple. I’ve tried enough such tech demos to know where this is going.
frankly, I would love if it succeeded, but I can only hope they’ll deliver what they promise in May. If they fail half of promised or it takes them till June/July - this is going to be yet another unfinished product.
Yeah, sure, it is a tech demo, people should give it some slack. You can’t expect much. True. But so what if it’s true? Until here can be shown a lot of content, comparable to previous ‘version’ of this - it’s gonna remain worse then previous version. It’s a ‘Rebirth’, remember? As of now - this Rebirth is empty.
- Jun 5, 2017
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Frankly, realistic(3D/2,5D?) cum would be a big miss. It looks like shit. There was this game, something something BJ simulator with realistic goey cum, and it looked like guy cummed mercury. Both in color and substance. Going in the cartoony route would be the best with fluids. It’s simply difficult to achieve perfect realism so it looks ‘normal’ and anything less is gonna simply look either funny or weird, or both
Thats just puting everyone in single bag. "Oh this guy did this remake and started milking so hes bad, but wait those guys did also remake even though they had reasons for that and are diligently working on remake but it doesnt matter they are also baddies like that other guy"
"And some tech demo made by someone else" from what they explained team didnt really change just 1 guy went out that was kind of a forced pillar as he said by himself Abelius as i remember. And my quess for the whole need of remake from 0 is probably because the guy have his rights to the 1st project so to avoid any prossible problems they need to have their own but thats just my quess and im probably wrong as i dont know how the rights with h-games projects go. Or it was simply as they said it was needed because the code was fu*** up and each patch was harder and harder because of that and it was also for the purpose of more expanded options for the game.
Well who knows? ask them or even BETTER check yourself what they said themself to the never ending same type of questions/comments/hates/false accusations thrown at them in both old and new thread show some effort, you can also sit on their discord where they are active.
- Jun 5, 2017
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you’re right, but there are simply too many same examples of Remakes being done wrong.
But I don’t care about their drama, you see? Neither many of others. It’s their business, not ours. It shouldn’t concern us nor should it be an issue of ours. It’s not supposed to be used as an excuse to delay shit from being done. It’s wrong, but your client will rarely care if your dog died or you are feeling sickif it’s going to be a problem for your work being completed.
Yeah, I’ve also seen some games getting slower since, as some say, ‘code’ was getting messier with each update. Well, shit. I understand this, but. Not my problem. Do you get it now? It’s not about how hard they try, it’s about how hard they fail. It’s always gonna be. If not for me, then for someone else. If not for someone else, then for themselves, since they might think They went on the wrong development path or some shit and do another Remake.
- Mar 11, 2018
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Oh oh, I hope that I can just keep going and I'll provide a small technical/professional critique as well.
The spine based animation system, when combined with 8 directions of movement, is going to be a nightmare to work with.
I tried to do this previously at an isometric scale with 8 degrees of movement with clothing bits and bobs on the characters, and I used initially 256x256 sprites that I later degraded to 128x128 because not only did I run into problems with getting the art done at that level, I also started to hit some memory issues that started to lead to performance reductions.
My suggestion here would be to go full 3D, or heavily reduce the scope of your degrees of movement to maybe just 2, 4 at the most.
I'm not sure how much of a bonus you get from spine animations, but I believe you win and lose here. You have to both make an armature that can be properly deformed at places, but also making additional animated parts can be done and blended in but it is a bit awkward to do and looks strange. Such as the legs being purely spine based, but the chest has some side to side frames, with the boobs being spine based with some sort of animated physics bounce.
Systems like this are going to make the sex scenes limiting in appearance, and difficult to get looking right, since you're stuck at this weird 2D/not 2D kind of action where you have to make actions out of effectively paper dolls. It can be done, and has in this type of game for a long time, but they will never look amazing, and a users screen resolution can make things look even worse.
The character art, not counting how you made a Barbie doll, is too complex with shading. Movement and spine based deformations are going to look out of place because there's too much shading on everything. It's going to look good in a screenshot, but once it starts to animate it gets hard to look at and follow the movements. My suggestion here would be to use more flats. This is going to make spine based animation easier to do and look better because you're not going to be fighting the hard set shading model you drew on the body parts as they bend around. And I doubt you want to make new body parts with different shading so the legs look good when standing up and also when kneeling over to start gargling on a snake cock.
Cooking: ya that's fine. Not too technically challenging. Keep it if ya want.
Party members:You done tipped the complexity scale here. Pull back!
Complex icon based inventory: this is a pain in the ass but doable mostly. You just got to draw more icons.
Paper doll clothing slots on the in game character: this is also tipping the scale, especially when combined with 8 directional movement. You're going to regret this one if you don't already.
Day night cycle: Eh. Could go either way, could be crap if you want to also code The Chief being at home from some time, eating at some time, and doing other stuff at other times. This could also be player annoyance because now they also have to play "where's the McGuffin" with characters they need to talk to at different times
Survival mechanics: super easy, you can keep em if you want
combat: This in itself can be an entire game. This is a huge danger zone because it's either going to be too hard, too easy, or pointless, but in this kind of game at this tiny of a scale it could get annoying fast because I don't want to have to fight the same 2 or 3 guys every time I go to Dark Forest Screen D2.
rpg skills: this can be both easy or huge trouble and a pain in the ass depending on how far you go. Be careful here, it can easily be tied to combat and really be a whole game by itself without anything else. Big work.
That's just my understanding from playing the demo and reading the posts the devs have made. I'd be glad to see the design document for what is planned and give additional input, but I am not a patreon so do not see it. If it's public feel free to link it.
I kind of feel like people are being "surprised" by what is being worked on, and it's not what they wanted or expected, so it's possible there is no real unified definition of done or mvp that the team is working towards and it's just sort of "here's some ideas... let's build these systems!"
Unfortunately for a lot of games and developers, just making "a bunch of systems" doesn't actually converge into making a good game as an end product unless there was some cohesive vision for what and how it would all tie together.
I think a good modern example of this is Star Citizen, where they are just kind of adding in a bunch of random things, but nothing is really tied together, and all the elements don't have a firm cohesion together. It basically feels like different people working on different things and adding them into one game in different ways, so it's like playing a lot of totally different games under one roof depending on which direction you went or button you clicked or menu you opened.
The spine based animation system, when combined with 8 directions of movement, is going to be a nightmare to work with.
I tried to do this previously at an isometric scale with 8 degrees of movement with clothing bits and bobs on the characters, and I used initially 256x256 sprites that I later degraded to 128x128 because not only did I run into problems with getting the art done at that level, I also started to hit some memory issues that started to lead to performance reductions.
My suggestion here would be to go full 3D, or heavily reduce the scope of your degrees of movement to maybe just 2, 4 at the most.
I'm not sure how much of a bonus you get from spine animations, but I believe you win and lose here. You have to both make an armature that can be properly deformed at places, but also making additional animated parts can be done and blended in but it is a bit awkward to do and looks strange. Such as the legs being purely spine based, but the chest has some side to side frames, with the boobs being spine based with some sort of animated physics bounce.
Systems like this are going to make the sex scenes limiting in appearance, and difficult to get looking right, since you're stuck at this weird 2D/not 2D kind of action where you have to make actions out of effectively paper dolls. It can be done, and has in this type of game for a long time, but they will never look amazing, and a users screen resolution can make things look even worse.
The character art, not counting how you made a Barbie doll, is too complex with shading. Movement and spine based deformations are going to look out of place because there's too much shading on everything. It's going to look good in a screenshot, but once it starts to animate it gets hard to look at and follow the movements. My suggestion here would be to use more flats. This is going to make spine based animation easier to do and look better because you're not going to be fighting the hard set shading model you drew on the body parts as they bend around. And I doubt you want to make new body parts with different shading so the legs look good when standing up and also when kneeling over to start gargling on a snake cock.
Cooking: ya that's fine. Not too technically challenging. Keep it if ya want.
Party members:You done tipped the complexity scale here. Pull back!
Complex icon based inventory: this is a pain in the ass but doable mostly. You just got to draw more icons.
Paper doll clothing slots on the in game character: this is also tipping the scale, especially when combined with 8 directional movement. You're going to regret this one if you don't already.
Day night cycle: Eh. Could go either way, could be crap if you want to also code The Chief being at home from some time, eating at some time, and doing other stuff at other times. This could also be player annoyance because now they also have to play "where's the McGuffin" with characters they need to talk to at different times
Survival mechanics: super easy, you can keep em if you want
combat: This in itself can be an entire game. This is a huge danger zone because it's either going to be too hard, too easy, or pointless, but in this kind of game at this tiny of a scale it could get annoying fast because I don't want to have to fight the same 2 or 3 guys every time I go to Dark Forest Screen D2.
rpg skills: this can be both easy or huge trouble and a pain in the ass depending on how far you go. Be careful here, it can easily be tied to combat and really be a whole game by itself without anything else. Big work.
That's just my understanding from playing the demo and reading the posts the devs have made. I'd be glad to see the design document for what is planned and give additional input, but I am not a patreon so do not see it. If it's public feel free to link it.
I kind of feel like people are being "surprised" by what is being worked on, and it's not what they wanted or expected, so it's possible there is no real unified definition of done or mvp that the team is working towards and it's just sort of "here's some ideas... let's build these systems!"
Unfortunately for a lot of games and developers, just making "a bunch of systems" doesn't actually converge into making a good game as an end product unless there was some cohesive vision for what and how it would all tie together.
I think a good modern example of this is Star Citizen, where they are just kind of adding in a bunch of random things, but nothing is really tied together, and all the elements don't have a firm cohesion together. It basically feels like different people working on different things and adding them into one game in different ways, so it's like playing a lot of totally different games under one roof depending on which direction you went or button you clicked or menu you opened.
Awesome explanation and reasoning, are you even a patron ?
You see most problematic thing with people is how narrow mined they are they only look at things from 1 perspective THEIR OWN, they dont care that a game developer make game for certain group of people because its impossible to satisfy everyone its IMPOSSIBLE and people dont care they dont want to think about it.
Oh this game looks interesting wait wait wait it doesnt have what i like ? what a garbage game.
Why is the development taking so loooong? fu**g milkers how long can it take for you people to animate those scenes (spine/hair/joints/tail/eyes/mouth/time frame on each thing and more) when a flash game animation (5 straight lines of skeleton) is done in week. saw some people comparing this game to a flash game in comments thats why i give this example.
And there are more and more AND MOOOOOOORE of differents things that can be noticed but i dont even feel like writing about it and giving those examples because im quite sure its pointless since people are ignorant about those stuff.
You see most problematic thing with people is how narrow mined they are they only look at things from 1 perspective THEIR OWN, they dont care that a game developer make game for certain group of people because its impossible to satisfy everyone its IMPOSSIBLE and people dont care they dont want to think about it.
Oh this game looks interesting wait wait wait it doesnt have what i like ? what a garbage game.
Why is the development taking so loooong? fu**g milkers how long can it take for you people to animate those scenes (spine/hair/joints/tail/eyes/mouth/time frame on each thing and more) when a flash game animation (5 straight lines of skeleton) is done in week. saw some people comparing this game to a flash game in comments thats why i give this example.
And there are more and more AND MOOOOOOORE of differents things that can be noticed but i dont even feel like writing about it and giving those examples because im quite sure its pointless since people are ignorant about those stuff.
- May 21, 2020
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Man, back when I was still in the LoK Discord, this is the number one thing I complained about. Like, I'm not saying Abelius's iteration was perfect or anything, but having to only worry about TWO directions in terms of creating graphical assets is much less of a hassle than EIGHT. I genuinely wonder if Kuja loves agony, cause that's all he's going to experience with making clothing/gear/etc. from here on out with this current system. I say all this as a spriter with several years of experience working on small projects. Denizen is right about all the blatant red flags surrounding this game.
I was a patron for the first year or so. Backed out once Abelius decided to post more about his office situation and travel shenanigans instead of moving the project along. Don't blame Kuja for cutting ties with him, but things don't seem to be much better either way.
I still dont understand that reasoning just like you have a damned choice to buy something in a food shop/cloth shop/computer shop or not buy at all its all up to you are you going to complain to everyone because you didnt spend money or you did on something that you decided to test to see what it is be dissapointed and complain because it was different than you yourself assumed it would be ?
Same choice you have with becoming a patron to them or not becoming one and wait to see what the game will become without spending money on it because there are other people that are sure they will enjoy they game and they are patrons for a long time and the game goes as they want.
Theres no need for stupid negative comments with no VALUE to the game development its like complaining just for sole purpose of complaining. like wtf ?