Just go to their discord and talk with them or directly with pikant since you have knowledge on that stuffOh oh, I hope that I can just keep going and I'll provide a small technical/professional critique as well.
The spine based animation system, when combined with 8 directions of movement, is going to be a nightmare to work with.
I tried to do this previously at an isometric scale with 8 degrees of movement with clothing bits and bobs on the characters, and I used initially 256x256 sprites that I later degraded to 128x128 because not only did I run into problems with getting the art done at that level, I also started to hit some memory issues that started to lead to performance reductions.
My suggestion here would be to go full 3D, or heavily reduce the scope of your degrees of movement to maybe just 2, 4 at the most.
I'm not sure how much of a bonus you get from spine animations, but I believe you win and lose here. You have to both make an armature that can be properly deformed at places, but also making additional animated parts can be done and blended in but it is a bit awkward to do and looks strange. Such as the legs being purely spine based, but the chest has some side to side frames, with the boobs being spine based with some sort of animated physics bounce.
Systems like this are going to make the sex scenes limiting in appearance, and difficult to get looking right, since you're stuck at this weird 2D/not 2D kind of action where you have to make actions out of effectively paper dolls. It can be done, and has in this type of game for a long time, but they will never look amazing, and a users screen resolution can make things look even worse.
The character art, not counting how you made a Barbie doll, is too complex with shading. Movement and spine based deformations are going to look out of place because there's too much shading on everything. It's going to look good in a screenshot, but once it starts to animate it gets hard to look at and follow the movements. My suggestion here would be to use more flats. This is going to make spine based animation easier to do and look better because you're not going to be fighting the hard set shading model you drew on the body parts as they bend around. And I doubt you want to make new body parts with different shading so the legs look good when standing up and also when kneeling over to start gargling on a snake cock.
Cooking: ya that's fine. Not too technically challenging. Keep it if ya want.
Party members:You done tipped the complexity scale here. Pull back!
Complex icon based inventory: this is a pain in the ass but doable mostly. You just got to draw more icons.
Paper doll clothing slots on the in game character: this is also tipping the scale, especially when combined with 8 directional movement. You're going to regret this one if you don't already.
Day night cycle: Eh. Could go either way, could be crap if you want to also code The Chief being at home from some time, eating at some time, and doing other stuff at other times. This could also be player annoyance because now they also have to play "where's the McGuffin" with characters they need to talk to at different times
Survival mechanics: super easy, you can keep em if you want
combat: This in itself can be an entire game. This is a huge danger zone because it's either going to be too hard, too easy, or pointless, but in this kind of game at this tiny of a scale it could get annoying fast because I don't want to have to fight the same 2 or 3 guys every time I go to Dark Forest Screen D2.
rpg skills: this can be both easy or huge trouble and a pain in the ass depending on how far you go. Be careful here, it can easily be tied to combat and really be a whole game by itself without anything else. Big work.
That's just my understanding from playing the demo and reading the posts the devs have made. I'd be glad to see the design document for what is planned and give additional input, but I am not a patreon so do not see it. If it's public feel free to link it.
I kind of feel like people are being "surprised" by what is being worked on, and it's not what they wanted or expected, so it's possible there is no real unified definition of done or mvp that the team is working towards and it's just sort of "here's some ideas... let's build these systems!"
Unfortunately for a lot of games and developers, just making "a bunch of systems" doesn't actually converge into making a good game as an end product unless there was some cohesive vision for what and how it would all tie together.
I think a good modern example of this is Star Citizen, where they are just kind of adding in a bunch of random things, but nothing is really tied together, and all the elements don't have a firm cohesion together. It basically feels like different people working on different things and adding them into one game in different ways, so it's like playing a lot of totally different games under one roof depending on which direction you went or button you clicked or menu you opened.
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I feel like Denizen is pretty correct in their thoughts here.
Here are mine for you though hon.
They had some 0.8 version that looked great, played well, and at the time fit with the expectations! This is awesome!
Something happened. Drama, etc. It's none of our business, and it shouldn't be, and also shouldn't be pushed on the players.
A year goes by.
A new version comes out. It is pretty bad. I played it, it was not good.
I feel like they should have went full 3D at that point, instead of try this 2D-3D thing. That wasn't a good mix for them.
The product was also hugely underdeveloped, to the point where not even the main character had all their movement frames lined up, and would switch to some kind of dummy model.
Something happened. The team again changed directions.
During this time, we're probably looking at like 3 or 4 years, probably more, and everybody is pissed off because not only did 0.8 look great and feel like all the groundwork was done and just needed some touch up, the entire thing was basically thrown away for reasons.
So this will bring us to this iteration now.
The game is apparently no longer just a porn game where you were an enslaved blue fox being corrupted, now suddenly it has to be A Video Game with mechanics and all kinds of new content 0.8 didn't have.
Not only that, but the 0.8 art people were fond of has been replaced with this recent stuff. I won't go into it again, but skinny Krystal and strange worm-like snake cocks were not exactly things I was hoping to see as coming out first as part of the "be impressed by this!" campaign they had to do to prove their worthiness for additional time and money.
So after all this time, 0.8 not only looks better, it still plays better and has better content, and it was also delivered years ago. I think that at this point their method of animation is too reminiscent of old flash games people saw as Newgrounds shovel ware, instead of modern for this era. It'a no longer the same year as 0.8, and standards have risen; especially if you're claiming to be A Real Video Game now to honor the memory of what Krystal deserves.
There is a lot going against this project, and I'm super curious to know if the team can overcome it all.
I hope they can because I enjoy the concept and I enjoyed 0.8 a lot years ago.
But that is also an additional nail; this game seems to be very different than 0.8. Is it fair for the team to keep playing off of that memory, and using the Krystal reference, when they dropped it and it's really no longer the same game?
I can understand people supporting a game, but this game has changed a lot. Probably a lot more than is good for it, and old supporters can feel like they've been taken for a ride, because too much has changed.
At this point, it wouldn't be bad if they closed up the LoK concept entirely, and reopened under their new brand with new expectations. Recycling is going to only go so far and you're ultimately going to piss off too many people along the way. I'd say the game has changed sufficiently enough that it should basically start from "scratch".
Don't pay homage or talk about 0.8, it's gone and no longer a focus. Distance from that horrible tech demo in 3D. Drop Krystal entirely. And kick off a new thing with your new concept without leaving people feeling like they're getting scammed or conned at this point.
- Mar 11, 2018
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I'm not a patreon so don't have their discord.
I also doubt my thoughts would be received well. I also have no interest in fighting or trying to change nature and it's course. Their decisions are entirely their own for their reasons.
I would like to enjoy their product, but don't believe I could ever influence any critical path choices, especially considering how much has already gone to get the project to this state.
"Your Barbie doll version of Krystal causes me intense grief due to my childhood!!! Change it plz!!"
is probably not going to make them rework the tremendous amount of art they've done.
Thats why I said earlier that if it is like this where Abelius have his rights to ver 0.8 if they kept going with it and suddenly he decided he wants money for it then thats a problem for them , problem for them = problem for "players" so no matter what they would chose they will always affect the others (players/patrons) but by chosing creation of new project they avoid such possible problem, also its an opportunity to upgrade something (or downgrade for others, cant make EVERYONE happy).
Also Denizen I cant really agree with such self serving thinking like "It doesnt matter what reasons they had that forced remake, delay or something else that affects players THATS JUST WRONG! and I dont give a fu**"
If you were in hospitall and they didnt have enough people to take care of you because they lost some from overwork (there are such cases) so they lack personell , will you still say I dont give a fu** take care of me.?
I really dont like that how people have that attitude where they behave like its a given that they deserve some speciall service expecting/demanding from workers/owners to treat them like some high royalty thinking its their job to do something for them when it isnt it just out of kindness. Sorry but this last one I cant describe as i want to because theres so much and different kinds of situations of such behavior that makes it hard but i hope you people kind of understand what im trying to say.
And ye once again with 0.8 I dont know if its something like this its just my quess, only those who are in the team know the truth.
You dont need to be patron to have their discordI'm not a patreon so don't have their discord.
I also doubt my thoughts would be received well. I also have no interest in fighting or trying to change nature and it's course. Their decisions are entirely their own for their reasons.
I would like to enjoy their product, but don't believe I could ever influence any critical path choices, especially considering how much has already gone to get the project to this state.
"Your Barbie doll version of Krystal causes me intense grief due to my childhood!!! Change it plz!!"
is probably not going to make them rework the tremendous amount of art they've done.
You dont try you dont know
- May 31, 2018
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This is actually where a lot of people end up running afoul during development of some big project.
"We're not charging money, it's free!"
Is not something that gives you freedom to do whatever you want with an IP. Usually they won't go so far as to sue for money, but you will get a C&D.
Understand that it's not about how much money you earn, it's about how damaging your product may be to both present and future sales of the owning parties IP. All they need to do is prove that your product had swayed some people's view of that piece of IP and they win, and for the most part, you can't prove that your game/product didn't inspire somebody to think something about the primary IP holders product.
What this ultimately means is you'll get a C&D, probably years into development, and you'll be forced to scrap everything, and you'll probably lose the motivator complete that project, and it just goes away. You could fight it with lawyers, but you won't win, and then you'll have to pay both your lawyer fees and probably theirs as well, and you'll just get financially destroyed.
And what this should boil into is if you have an idea, and it relies on some other IP, figure out how to be more of a loose homage to that property rather than say "This is my Metal Gear Solid game!"
Maybe it can be Plastic Strut Gold or something and the main character is named Lizard and he happens to like wearing bandanas.
Thanks for the detailed answer, but I don’t think that everything looks so sad in reality, as you described it.
As an example, the Internet is full of pornography related to MLP stuff, and and also full of creators who have their own Patreon channel, who make money on it.
And as far as I know - Hasbro more than dislikes all of these creators. But were any of them condemned for what they do? NO.
And the reason is quite banal - a large companies does not want to be lit up in a scandal associated with some small studio that earns a penny (by the standards of a large studio, of course), especially related to pornography.
And even if, for some reason, a large company decides to punish the creators who are not pleasant to them, everything is easy to solve at the level of DMCA ticket, not to mention, a small studio (or creator) will get great publicity out of this whole situation.
The coin has several sides, it all depends on which side you are looking at this coin
...
- Nov 16, 2017
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I wouldn't compare nintendo to other studio, as Nintendo is a champion at overprotection. That's probably why that K game need the thread carefully.Thanks for the detailed answer, but I don’t think that everything looks so sad in reality, as you described it.
As an example, the Internet is full of pornography related to MLP stuff, and and also full of creators who have their own Patreon channel, who make money on it.
And as far as I know - Hasbro more than dislikes all of these creators. But were any of them condemned for what they do? NO.
And the reason is quite banal - a large companies does not want to be lit up in a scandal associated with some small studio that earns a penny (by the standards of a large studio, of course), especially related to pornography.
And even if, for some reason, a large company decides to punish the creators who are not pleasant to them, everything is easy to solve at the level of DMCA ticket, not to mention, a small studio (or creator) will get great publicity out of this whole situation.
The coin has several sides, it all depends on which side you are looking at this coin
For stories I could hear, the pokemon and metroid fangames got cut short and completely canceled because of nintendo's overprotection, while spyro and MLP fangame got a warning, and only had to change their design for their game to be ok.
- Sep 19, 2017
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Yes, but unfortunately it is our business because we are non**stop** compared to previous iterations of LoK, even ones we had absolutely nothing to do with. We are receiving blame for dozens of failed projects that no one on the team had anything to do with. It is very annoying. V0.8 was the only project we had a hand in. I did the writing for the vast majority of it, Abelius did the coding/animation and some of the writing, and Kuja did all of the artwork (There were mountains of artwork that were unused because Kuja is the fastest artist I've ever known)I feel like Denizen is pretty correct in their thoughts here.
Here are mine for you though hon.
They had some 0.8 version that looked great, played well, and at the time fit with the expectations! This is awesome!
Something happened. Drama, etc. It's none of our business, and it shouldn't be, and also shouldn't be pushed on the players.
The 3D version was showing off our UI and newer game mechanics. We also wanted to experiment with the 3D environments with 2D characters. The issue was the 3D was made by a different artist, and we couldn't quite get the artstyle to meld. Very little time was lost in switching back from 3D to 2D, in fact we even recently converted that 3D environment to 2D (Which now looks better imo).A year goes by.
A new version comes out. It is pretty bad. I played it, it was not good.
I feel like they should have went full 3D at that point, instead of try this 2D-3D thing. That wasn't a good mix for them.
Yes, we released something with some placeholders to get across our idea of what we were going for. We didn't change directions, we just decided not to use 3D environments and Kuja went back to drawing 2D environments like he originally did. Virtually no progress was lost.
When v0.8 was restarted, we were left to having to restart *from scratch*, because we no longer had the assets for code and any of the animations. We had to assemble a team from scratch (Many members didn't work out either, as they weren't up to our standards), and then we had to figure out what we wanted to do. It wasn't a smooth transition, for sure, we had to learn how to operate a complex pipeline with numerous team members.
We were also making almost no money, as we were splitting the money over a lot of people. There was also many complications within the personal lives of our team at the time.
Basically, the worst possible case happened with v0.8, and we knew people would be angry with us if we restarted, but we figured it would be better to restart the project, than to abandon it. Especially since we adore the project, and we are attached to it through our work.
Make no mistake, we could be making far more money with our talents elsewhere, but we want to do right by our patrons, and we want to make a very good game (Yes, with porn).
It was never going to just be a porn game. Much was planned with v0.8, much promised that never would have been capable. Kay will go through the exact same story notes from v0.8, but more refined and more grounded in realism.
The biggest complaint we ever received for v0.8, something I heard nonstop on a daily basis, was that it was a boring and awful grindfest. There was no gameplay in the video game, and you could achieve roughly the same thing by just going to a porn site and looking up 'All sex scenes in Lok:R'
So I resolved to change that, we decided to make gameplay for the game, and we decided to build it into the foundation first, which will eventually lead to more stability (The old LoK:R was also a bug fest, and had far less mechanics, so I would consider this a net improvement, personally, but obviously people would disagree with me)
Standards have in fact risen. We are not using the old playshapes to just make walking sex simulator, as much as I loved that old system, we want to make a game, and this is a passion project. We are making it because we want to make it, and what we want to make plays into it as much as our patrons that allow us to do so. Of course we listen to them, and I am as transparent as I possibly can be, I often discuss the story I have planned, everything we are doing, and our progress on it in the discord/patreon page.
As for the snake dicks, I'm afraid that different species will have different dicks, you also experienced the sex scenes with Appius, who is an old man, and not the most endowed of the snake people. It was just a tease, using the Merchant to show off the quest and the level. Soon we'll have Vanlen's sex scenes in the game (We are working on them now), and you won't have to worry about the snake dicks.
There will be other types of dicks, because the community likes variety, and not everyone has the same tastes.
It uses all of the same characters, and much the same story. The art is made by the exact same artist. It will retouch all of the scenarios. I'm not sure what you mean by it not being the same game. It is obvious it has evolved, and is more complex, but it is very much a continuation of the old version.There is a lot going against this project, and I'm super curious to know if the team can overcome it all.
I hope they can because I enjoy the concept and I enjoyed 0.8 a lot years ago.
But that is also an additional nail; this game seems to be very different than 0.8. Is it fair for the team to keep playing off of that memory, and using the Krystal reference, when they dropped it and it's really no longer the same game?
I suppose we shall see, but we prefer to be positive and continue working on the game. There are devs that have done far more scummy things than us, we try to be honest in everything we do, and to my knowledge I've never lied to anyone about this project. It is what it is, and I hope we can do right by those that have supported us.
That would be a horrible idea. We are already accused of restarting the project a million times, even though we only did it once. I'm not going to entertain that idea.
It is a focus. I have literally stated publicly multiple times on multiple platforms that at this very moment we are "Working to get back to where v0.8 left off, then we'll expand to more unknown territory."
For your information, by the by, the combat is planned to be based off of KOTOR's combat. Turn based modified DnD system. You are free to talk to me any time I'm available (which is often) on our discord, which is publicly available. I will gladly talk about any part of the development with you.
Our rechanging of the game to distance ourselves from Nintendo, came from the Peach's Untold Tale game being nuked, and that was made with playshapes (The original lineage of LoK). We shared the exact same forum with them when this project was started. So yes, we don't want to be nuked by Nintendo.
No matter what I say here people will moan, complain that it isn't as good as v0.8, and accuse us of everything under the sun. I've seen it so many times on this site, and frankly I'm very tired of it. Progress on this game is going about as fast as progress on v0.8 happened, but with far **far** more complexity to it. I don't really care if you think that this game should only be about the porn, I really don't anymore, because you aren't the only person interested in this game. What you think, is not always what others think, and the world does not revolve around what you think everything should be.
There would be absolutely nothing for me to do if all it were was a walking simulator porn gallery. But part of what makes this special for a lot of people, or so they tell me, is the characterization. They love the characters I made, and are excited to see where they go. And I'm excited to see them develop. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see Kuja's artwork for Golak, or the Nameless Jackal, or any of the other characters I've made. And of course, sex will follow for all of them at some point. You will see more variety in races, and sex from those races, than any 2D sex game ever made. You will see customization. You will see story that will (hopefully) immerse and compel you, making you love or hate the characters, and it will make sex all the more appealing.
These things we want to deliver to you, we simply need time, for we are a small team, doing this more for passion than money. And yes, we are learning as we go, our pipeline has evolved over the last year, and is working very fast. There is always room for improvement, and I welcome constructive criticism. But I have reached the point where I just ignore most of these threads here, because it's just complaining negativity, and it disheartens us.
Anyway, for the immediate fixes to the complaints I've seen here: Kay's model will be tweaked, as will her movement animations (Specifically the diagonal ones) will be tweaked. There are many things to polish, and of course bugs to be fixed. But once these bugs are fixed, content will be added smoothly, combat is really the last main hurdle in terms of mechanics to cross, and then all we have to really worry about is adding content (Outfits, sex scenes, characters, environments, etc.) and hopefully fun minigames. We are currently working on Vanlen's tanning minigame, improving it to make it less monotonous and making it fun, animation is working on his spanking scenes currently. What we have planned for Vanlen is the following (Rough Draft):
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Damn it looks good. Hopefully wont be abandoned like the last one lol
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Hasbro also did attacked a lot of fan projects for the reason, since they was very similar to the original work of the copyright holding studio. However, the reason for the attack is often the fact that outwardly - an amateur project is too similar to the original project from a large studio (actually, same or nearly same models are used, the same style, and the like), and in this way they really defend their copyright, because a person from the outside - can easily take the work of such amateur studios - for the work of the main studio, and this is potential loss of profit, damage to the image and the like.
With pornography, things are a little different - as I said in my previous post - large studios will not want to get their hands dirty on such projects, and if for some reason such information emerges in the media - a large studio risks spoiling its image, and therefore not sues such developers for really no good reason for this.
Of course, there are always exceptions, but as long as developers adhere to the free manner of distributing their project (and do not try to appropriate the copyright of the characters they used, passing them off completely as their property) - with a much greater probability - no one will touch them from large organizations.
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- Mar 11, 2018
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I fully agree. I'm not a lawyer by any stretch.Thanks for the detailed answer, but I don’t think that everything looks so sad in reality, as you described it.
As an example, the Internet is full of pornography related to MLP stuff, and and also full of creators who have their own Patreon channel, who make money on it.
And as far as I know - Hasbro more than dislikes all of these creators. But were any of them condemned for what they do? NO.
And the reason is quite banal - a large companies does not want to be lit up in a scandal associated with some small studio that earns a penny (by the standards of a large studio, of course), especially related to pornography.
And even if, for some reason, a large company decides to punish the creators who are not pleasant to them, everything is easy to solve at the level of DMCA ticket, not to mention, a small studio (or creator) will get great publicity out of this whole situation.
The coin has several sides, it all depends on which side you are looking at this coin
These suits though are about money, and proving how some person caused me to lose money. If your TV show is available on public TV where somebody doesn't necessarily need to pay extra to buy that specific show, it'll be harder to prove how you were wronged or how it affected your bottom line. I'm sure it could still happen since anything is possible. It's also a different medium as well not in competition with you.
As far as like the fan YouTube videos of mlp, don't know there either. I'd imagine they should get a C&D but don't, so it's all subjective to the IP holders discretion.
On the flip side, if you mess with Hello Kitty you get destroyed pretty quickly by Sanrio who is overly protective of that IP.
- Mar 11, 2018
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Thank you for your response.
I'm quite excited to see where you go, why I chose this particular thread to actually post in and climb out of my solid hiding shell a bit.
I will indicate that I am a fan of making a game with the porn game. I don't think I provided my input there on the matter, only an opinion of how I saw reactions going down and the mental anguish it was causing all sides.
My personal projects are games with some light sexual stuff mixed in, but the sex is not really the selling point or key feature, so I am actually right there with you. It's also for that same reason that my project is just my project, probably will never go public because I'm not sure I could appease anybody but myself in what I want to play with.
I feel like the biggest thing is the association with 0.8, which you agree is pretty blah, and causing issues. I also understand that actually changing drastically there is not something you guys want to entertain either even though in a way you are, just not in that whole "stopping this project fully, restarting a new one with no previous expectations tied to us".
The only way to shed that particular bane is to make your current iteration up to or better than 0.8. I'm positive you'll be able to do it, and it feels like you guys have some incredible velocity for getting work done currently.
I aim to be constructive with any criticism I provide, since I don't want to just be a negative Nancy, so I hope that came across as well, if not I do apologize.
The art direction is yours, I did try to help provide methods for making the pipeline easier and possibly look better, and I don't like the Barbie doll look, but that's a style you want and that's fine, my opinion there is not everybody's opinion. Also with snake cocks, it's just my opinion.
Some of my concerns are some of the items I previously highlighted as being, to me, significant work. If combat is definitely in and the rpg mechanics are definitely in, that's fine. I'm patient and I also know I'm not a patreon so my opinion is even super less critical lol
I will try to post about but I'm super shy so I come and go maybe but I will try to see what I can post to. Maybe I will hop on your discord at some point too to see what's going on!
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I will not say that I myself am a major specialist in law, but I have already dealt in showdowns with copyright holders, and they ended successfully, in my favor
...Oh and yes - a possible reason for filing a lawsuit is that the work of those who make the parody, even if officially - completely for free - is too similar to the original work of the copyright holders, or if the creators of the parody are trying to appropriate the copyright on the parodies they create. the purposes of the characters, pretending that these characters have nothing to do with the originals, and that they (the creators of amateur projects) have full rights to what they did.
I gave a slightly more detailed example in this post (which is likely to fit the situation with *Hello Kitty* you gave as an example) - https://f95zone.to/threads/lok-rebirth-v1-0-1-the-tribe-devs.59634/post-5240908
- Mar 11, 2018
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Congrats on your victory.I will not say that I myself am a major specialist in law, but I have already dealt in showdowns with copyright holders, and they ended successfully, in my favor
Oh and yes - a possible reason for filing a lawsuit is that the work of those who make the parody, even if officially - completely for free - is too similar to the original work of the copyright holders, or if the creators of the parody are trying to appropriate the copyright on the parodies they create. the purposes of the characters, pretending that these characters have nothing to do with the originals, and that they (the creators of amateur projects) have full rights to what they did.
I gave a slightly more detailed example in this post (which is likely to fit the situation with *Hello Kitty* you gave as an example) - https://f95zone.to/threads/lok-rebirth-v1-0-1-the-tribe-devs.59634/post-5240908
While I have never been hit with any of these, I have seen a number of projects and individuals hit with them. Of course they are also doing something with bigger IPs as well, like Star Wars, so I'm sure the bigger the IP you choose to play with the more likely they are to come down with at least a C&D.
The saddest part of these situations tends to be the amount of work the creators put into it. By the time they get notified, it could have been years of hard labor. Just "switching out" with some new IP they need to come up with in their head is just too much, too devastating, and the creator gives a tearful post and the project, regardless of how awesome it was, vanishes entirely.
People can also use those to attract talent as well. So sometimes the team wants to do this because they really love that particular IP, and don't want to put that much effort into something not that IP.
they will never finished it. try me
- May 22, 2017
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I definitely hope that you didn't butcher her adorable original personality and still plan to include a special route and dedicated ending to that sweet cinnamon roll <3
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Maybe in a couple of years you will find out when this quest will be introduced into the game.