VN Ren'Py Love & Jealousy [Act 3] [Professor Amethyst Games]

[Lady Lydia]

Noticed another narrative inconsitency/bug while replaying Act 1.

MC is talking to Mia about Lacey's college experience AFTER Lacey cucked the MC on her trip with Veronica out of town.

During the conversation, Mia talks about Lacey's early relationships with Stephen, Lorenzo, and Phillip. In that discussion, she claims Lorenzo had a big penis, and it was Phillip with the micro penis, even tho earlier when Lorenzo showed up at the bar, she indicates he was the one with the micro-penis. That was confirmed in Act 3 with the SPH scene involving Lorenzo.

IN addition, Mia says Lorenzo was Lacey's first, even though we know Stephen was.

At this point should we even be shocked that the Dev which has shown couldn't be consistent with its characterization is also inconsistent about their narrative. If the Prof wasn't proven to be the Dev you'd think this game was actually made by someone else since its by far in term of characterization and narrative the worst of its games.

 

[radical686]

At this point should we even be shocked that the Dev which has shown couldn't be consistent with its characterization is also inconsistent about their narrative. If the Prof wasn't proven to be the Dev you'd think this game was actually made by someone else since its by far in term of characterization and narrative the worst of its games.

I edited my post when I got to the part that the MC says to Mia that Lacey said Lorenzos had the micro penis. So, I suspect Mia just got it wrong. If he did that deliberately, it's a clever ploy to include those kinds of third person conversational mistakes.

So, it may or may not be a narrative mistake.

The one I noticed earlier clearly is a mistake, the Dev incorrectly attaches Mia's name to Christine in an earlier scene.

 

[SayoraSaint]

Because Lacey is

a) not not a complete idiot
b) she wanted to be with Gristle and knew that would spoil her chances
c) she genuinely care for Gristle's feelings and tried to soften the truth for him
d) Lacey hates herself and loves Gristle because he sees her as a scared child, not a degraded sex toy

And Mia fucked that all up. If Gristle had any degree of self awareness and he was not trapped by his misogyny he would simply realize "she has past but she choose me over a 100 different men" but she knows that Gristle is too weak to come that realization and she just expects abuse from men

If we consider each of these points individually, they are all more or less true, and if we consider all these statements in isolation from history, we can justify and even love lacey.

Now let's assume that Mia didn't tell MC about Lacey's past. (This is only a probabilistic and not an exact sequence.)

-Lacey said that MC is her first.
-MC feels that she is clearly not a novice in sex.
-At the King's party, the girls accidentally reveal part of the truth.
-lacey wants a promotion and plays tennis with friends.
-lacey meets Barty.
-MC meet Barty.
-Anna is not indifferent to MC, and even if Mia didn't tell MC anything, Anna isn't going to stand by and watch lacey cheat on MC.
-MC meets Isak.
-Barty and Isak finally enlighten MC about lacey past.
...
...
...
It's a fucking snowball, and the further it goes, the bigger and more dangerous it gets.
And he won't stop until he crushes everything.


Now tell me, would it be better if MC learned the truth this way?
And is the white lie you're justifying lacey's behavior really that good?

And it wasn't Mia who ruined everything, but lacey when she decided that lying was the solution to problems.

 

[monkeyqueen]

Anna being a secret misogynist? I don't even have an answer how ridiculous that sound.

Dude, I don't have words to express how unhinged you sound right now (1). There is nothing secret about it. Go to the scene where Anna secretly records Lacey talking with Isaac. (because that's a normal thing to do) Then control skip to the place where she takes Gristle's place and is sadistically abusing Lacey.

(1) whatever your gender, you are acting like a dude bro, dude.

Here's the not-at-all misogynist Anna

Lacey: I wanted to give you a chance to finish
Anna: how thoughtful,
Did you let Isaac finish
Inside of you, repeatedly for three weeks?
. . .
Anna mocking Lacey' "But because I kind of still want you, could you just ignore that I'm a total skank"

Her insults are slut shaming. She calls women sexist names. This is how pick me's talks. She continues to grill Lacey for something that Lacey doesn't need to apologize for. Lacey did nothing wrong! She had sex in college and then she had a conversation - in her own god damned house - with someone she dated in college and then politely turned him down and expressed her love for her husband.

The person in the wrong her is CLEARLY Anna. I mean WTF?! - only porn brain tells you that secretly recording someone is okay. If Lacey weren't a masochistic doormat she would take Anna to task for invading her private space, secretly recording her and then threatening her. In fact Lacey could file a complaint and restraining order against this criminal, misogynist creep. But that won't happen because narrative always wants to take us back to the original sin. *ooooh* Lacey had sex in college and need to have that rubbed in her face on daily basis ! Preferably by her husband or one of her husband's surrogates. Not because they like it! No sir, that's not the reason. No sexual gratification here! Just justice.

For pick me's like Anna, sex is bad and evil and women who have sex need to be publicly shamed. Perhaps be forced to wear a scarlet letter on their chest. Or slapped around a bit - preferably by "nice guys" like Gristle and his surrogate Anna.

Not that Lacey does indeed accept the abuse and get something out of it but seriously: how. the. fuck. can you defend Anna's sexism and insult me for daring to notice it?

As for Lacey, you do realize she fucked in College over the scope of like 2 years triple digit guys, including professors, . . .the term 'cumdump' is pretty fitting when Mia literally needed to help clean her up from all the cum she was covered and filled with.

Who. The. Fuck. Cares.

I ask again

Who. The. Fuck. Cares.

I've sex with many different partners sometimes in group settings and I won't accept your insulting terms for people who *achem* have sex. If oral aggression if your kink and you have a willing partner, great. But don't deny that your kink is based in sexism.

When it come to degrading or denigrating words, its not a gender thing, I will degrade and denigrate people regardless of any gender, racial, ethnic, religious, etc circumstances

And yet you refuse to call this disgusting cock of an MC a disgusting cock.

Because you have misogynistic attitudes. You think women who have sex with multiple partners deserve to denigrated. I can see why you defend this shitbag of an MC - you share some of his attitudes.

Now you defend her saying it was a white lie, in Act 3 we learn that after saying to the MC she'd be coming back to him, effectively agreeing to be his girlfriend she went back and fucked Isaac, which is the first time she effectively cheated on the MC.

I'll review that again. Can you tell about when that happened in the text so I can find a save? If it happened before they were officially together it's not cheating.

The white lie, was it for the MC sake for for her own?

It was both. The author is good enough to represent multiple motivations and different levels of motivations. She wanted to be with him, she was afraid of rejection and she wanted to spare his feelings. It was a white lie

The MC stated he deserved to know the girl he was going to marry had fucked around to that extreme level, it was his right to know who he was marrying, why did she hide it?

Now we are getting somewhere. This is a critically important point: HE. DOES. NOT. DESERVE. TO. KNOW.

Why are you siding with his sense of entitlement?! He does deserve to know if she had any STDs or if she did anything that would put him or their future children in danger. But that's it. Lacey was not obligated to tell him shit. The fact that he WANTS to know does not mean he deserves to know.

You have a right to ask your partner for an STD test they have ZERO obligation to tell you about their sexual history. Even if you really, really want to know.

You say it was a white lie for his sake, but considering Lacey is shown in the game to be selfish

No. No. No! Gods no! Gaaaaah!

This is a game with unreliable narrators. Gristle says she's selfish. Anna says Lacey is selfish. Lacey agrees she is selfish because she agrees with anything the abusers demand. But her agreement is not proof. I already said that if you are missing the misogyny you are missing 90 percent of the game but if you are missing that the dev is using the unreliable narrator technique you are missing the rest.

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Seriously you are missing the ingredient that separates this AVN from others on the site - this author is capable of using unreliable narrators. We will never learn the truth, we only get glimpses of it.

Again, you cannot take anything anyone says as truth in this game - this is written like Game of Thrones / ASoIF , first person POV with unreliable narrators

If Gristle said "(justified anger) I think you are a frog Lacey! Just admit that you are a frog!" Lacey would say "You are right, I was acting just like a frog. I was willing to spread my legs and hop onto any lilly pad so that makes me frog"

That doesn't mean it has been proven that Lacey is a frog. I proves that sadist forced a masochist to agree with his degrading statements. One ending might be a formal sub / dom relationship where she wears a dog collar and crawls around and barks like a dog - this won't actually make her a dog, she will remain a masochistic woman who always agrees with her abusers.

This is why fluffing his ego is exactly the wrong medicine. It only feeds his sense of self righteousness. Which feeds his anger, which make his abuse worse.

Nothing has been proven. Nothing. And of all the dishonest people in this game she has been the most honest.

As for the accusation the MC is a wife beater, SHE TOLD HIM TO HIT HER, he didn't just do it out of nowhere she pushed him to do it. Also it was just a slap, not a punch, not a beating, it was a simple slap, which she asked him to do to her.

I return to my statement about race play - I don't care if your partner agreed to it, if you do you are still a racist if you engage in it. I don't care that a broken masochist agreed to be beaten by out of control sadist I care that the fuckbag did it.

As for him going on rant, you mean to himself?

I mean which one? Misogynist ranting is most of what he does. He started ranting about how his wife was slut, whore etc while mia was showing the photos. He said that to mia and to himself and he has said to her multiple times.

Sure I rant to myself all the time - and the things I say when ranting reveal things about about me. If you rant about immigrants and minorities to yourself by yourself that says something about you. If you rant about how women who have sex are sluts and whores and cum dumpsters that says something about you.

Its particular you ignore entirely that Lacey cheated on him

Uh. Reread my review. I devoted an entire paragraph to that. It ends with "oops"

I think she honestly thought she was doing the right thing. Again, the keystone to her personality is the experience with Isaac - her masochism paid dividends. She believe that insight is the child of pain and that Gristle needed to feel some pain to understand the lesson she wanted to teach him: sex and intimacy are two different things.

She wanted to rip off the bandage to heal the wound. Stupid idea? Yes. Proof that Lacey wanted to cheat, absolutely not.

As to whether it was cheating? I'm less sure. You are right that withdrawing consent is something he has right to do. The question is whether not she was able to read and process the information in those text. I'm inclined to believe her when she said she was black out drunk + high on K. So message sent but not received by anyone capable of reading and processing text.

We'll never know for certain unless we get flashback from Lacey's POV. But in any case Gristle should have never agreed. I mean the man can force his wife to declare she is a frog so he can demand she not go through with the plan. I mean she makes it very, very clear time and time again that Gristle can tell her to do anything and she will do it. He even has the thought that if he put his mind to it he could really manipulate her even worse than her previous abusers. He could have said no but failed to do so until the last moment.

Why? Why wait until two mintutes before the midnight hour? Because if he stopped at a sane moment he wouldn't have an opportunity to berate her and tell her she's slut. If he put some rules forward at the moment he agreed he wouldn't have had to send last-second texts. In this case she was much more honest - she wanted to prove something to him but he lied (to himself) about his true motivations. I mean nice guys don't deliberately put their wives into situations where they get to verbally abuse them for hours on hours do they? No it was poor widdle victim Gristle who is really a very nice man who gets to that because his wife is a evil witch. And a frog.

Just like our nice guy didn't set up the poker game - that was done by some monster.

"when do I get to be the monster in the relationship" - Gristle

Um. MC? I have a theory . . . you were always the fucking monster. Weird that "the monster" showed up soon after you said that isn't it? Strange that the monster seems have the same kind of IT skills you do, does it? Must be a coincidence

the fact you defend her actions as perfectly innocent is crazy.

Her motivations, not her actions. I really do think she was doing this for their relationship - it just didn't work out because it was a stupid plan doomed to fail.

The second plan - trying to turn Gristle into a cuck - is a bit more selfish but is similarly an attempt to repair the relationship. It is equal parts selfish and self sacrificing.

As to your comments about Isaac - he is an abuser who took advantage of woman swiming in self loathing. But he caught feelings for her and he is one of the few people in this game capable of psychological growth. His mom read him the riot act and listened to his mom and became a better person.

 

[monkeyqueen]

And it wasn't Mia who ruined everything, but lacey when she decided that lying was the solution to problems.

I think that there's a great deal of truth in that. And that's what makes this a classic tragedy. If she had not lied when she did the marriage might not have happened. Gristle doesn't have the emotional maturity needed to say "the past is the past - the future is what we will make together" but neither of these two MCs are healthy people.

So the truth might have come out eventually. Would it have been better if Isaac was the person who revealed it? I would say yes - assuming he didn't send a flood of photos to the MC.

Because Mia doesn't just tell him she lets him stew. And she gets the MC to agree not to talk to his wife for 3 months. That was deliberate attempt to drive a wedge between them and it did a great deal of damage to the relationship.

Indeed I think Gristle was the first to show so signs of infidelity - he cared more about some promise he made some woman he only knew for a few months over the commitment he made to his wife. A sane person would say "you know what stranger - fuck the promise I made to you I made a more important promise to my wife and she and need to have a long heart to heart talk, keep the rest of the photos" but Gristle is not sane.

And for all of his berating his wife for failing to see the sign of flirting he is entirely blind to signs that people trying to manipulate him.

So TL;DR I think you are right that the problems start with the white lie but it would have been better if the information came from someone without a plan to destroy the relationship.

 

[Lady Lydia]

If we consider each of these points individually, they are all more or less true, and if we consider all these statements in isolation from history, we can justify and even love lacey.

Now let's assume that Mia didn't tell MC about Lacey's past. (This is only a probabilistic and not an exact sequence.)

-Lacey said that MC is her first.
-MC feels that she is clearly not a novice in sex.
-At the King's party, the girls accidentally reveal part of the truth.
-lacey wants a promotion and plays tennis with friends.
-lacey meets Barty.
-MC meet Barty.
-Anna is not indifferent to MC, and even if Mia didn't tell MC anything, Anna isn't going to stand by and watch lacey cheat on MC.
-MC meets Isak.
-Barty and Isak finally enlighten MC about lacey past.
...
...
...
It's a fucking snowball, and the further it goes, the bigger and more dangerous it gets.
And he won't stop until he crushes everything.


Now tell me, would it be better if MC learned the truth this way?
And is the white lie you're justifying lacey's behavior really that good?

And it wasn't Mia who ruined everything, but lacey when she decided that lying was the solution to problems.

A few things, the 'King's Party' isn't that the party that Lacey organized as a compensation to the MC for cheating on him? So it wouldn't have happened. Next I think Anna was only aware of the Tennis dates, so likely Lacey would have kept going for much longer thinking she'd get a promotion, who knows precisely how far she would have been willing to go, possibly all the way to cheating on the MC with Jared, after all she was willing to go that far to make a point to the MC, so for a promotion she felt would be beneficial for them? All the way is a likely answer, at which point Jared would have likely informed the MC to try to break them up, as well as show him the videos of Lacey in College that he got from the Detective to double down on pressure against Lacey.

At which point the MC would have confronted Lacey which would have been forced to confirm the truth, then he'd confronted Mia which while having likely denied or deflected when he asked her previously would have spilled the whole bean about everything Lacey did in College, it would have followed around to Anna that would have told him about the Tennis dates. At that point he'd have to deal with a much bigger hit if anything as a large pile of Lacey's lies would have been revealed, including the fact she was being blackmailed.

Act 2, without Veronica feeling bad after discovering that Lacey had cheated on her husband while being on their business travel and feeling responsible, she might not have been of help with the men from within her company approaching Lacey, so Lacey would have be pressured by Jared & Will to fuck them, maybe even other men like Damian & Lorenzo.

Christine might not even have gotten involved because at this point, because Jared would have felt he had sorta won already, without her around they wouldn't have learned about Bella, which mean they wouldn't have been able to beat Jared, which would have used the information he has on Lacey to force her having sex again with him, Will, Damian, etc. all continuing in trying to break up their marriage, Lacey would likely have tried to keep it secret, trying to push the MC far harder into sleeping with other girls because of how bad she would have be feeling, up until the point where Barty's Video would have gotten around, likely causing the MC to snap, confront Lacey again, she'd have spilled the bean about her added blackmailed cheating but trying to defend that she didn't do what that video portrayed, but without Christine their might have been no proof, with Veronica still blackmailed but not invested in the MC again little venues of help.

By this point The Monster might have felt they had no choice but to be far more forth coming with their information and tell the MC the video was fake and tell about Bella, which would have likely finally allowed them to get a way to beat Jared, at this point ironically their relationship might have been better then it is in the original L&J, because while Lacey would have cheated much more, she could have been claimed to have done so under blackmail, and ironically the more intense shared struggle to beat Jared might have helped make things better.

Act 3, now I assume due to the bigger troubles the MC might not have gotten the promotion he originally had gotten, so he might have not been able to afford his vacation to Vegas, still stuck in Barty's appartment, his network of girls likely smaller, his network might have been as little as merely Lacey, Mia, Anna & Kelly, with the MC's IT team, Jeanette, Yue & Jamie, somewhat around still but not as close. I suspect the MC would have only been able to really develop his relationship with them during Act 3, also due to Lacey pushing harder for the MC to fuck other girls Kelly would have likely been integrated in the group and taken Veronica's place.

No Vegas, No Abby, No Girl's Day bullshit, the MC would have likely been somewhat more mentally stable, however he wouldn't have likely went to attend therapy, maybe not even Lacey either. The Act 3 drama would have likely been from her ex boyfriends only, and not been enough for the MC to snap, instead I suspect Lacey would have been the one the snap, all the strain from the blackmailed cheating and possibly some new drug exposure to try to get over what had happened, would have drove her instead to be the one turning very mentally unstable to the point of hallucinations, and lead to a complete shift in personality dominance, her 'other self' taking over at the end of Act 3, actually deciding to leave the MC as the outcome.

Act 4 would be about the MC, Mia, Anna & Kelly pursuing 'Dark' Lacey and trying to return her normal, having to learn and witness her possibly fucking around with other men, damaging the MC's mental stability, ultimately which would likely require catching her and convincing 'Dark' Lacey to fuck the MC, with him fucking the shit out of her forcing a 'reset' allowing him to reclaim her.

Act 5 with the MC & Co. having had to quit their jobs to hunt down Lacey, the group would have likely needed to relocate to Lacey's Family hold that she inherited, they'd have a recovery time where they'd sorta adjust to their new reality, trying to figure what the bad guys want there, at that point they'd have to start fending off whoever is after Lacey's property.

Act 6 you'd have the bad guys making a big move on them, reveal of what is secretly at that property, the pressure on them escalate, with the help of unexpected and unknown allies best the bad guys, they get some wealth in some form out of all of it, they decide to settle properly there and form a 'big family', with the IT Crew, Dianne, Veronica, Bella & Christine, etc pretty much all the original MC's girls that all somehow rallied to help against the bad guys. So it end with a huge family, tons of kids, two broken individuals that overcame their jealousy, Lacey in Act 2 when she'd be forced to far more actively share the MC because of how bad she'd feel for all the cheating even if blackmailed, and the MC in Act 4 after having reclaimed Lacey, so now they can live & love happily ever after together.

 

[WannabeShady90]

This has to be one of the most toxic relationships I've ever seen in a game. Captain SaveAHoe (=MC) should have done what he did at the end of Chapter 3 before the story even started. You can't save broken people. The only reasonable choice is to run as fast and far away from such a situation as possible. I understand that Captain SaveAHoe (and the author by extension) is absolutly broken himself, but is still for some reason blue-pilled. I've seen friends descend into drug addiction and my mother worked her whole career as a psychiatrist...you can't save these people. Maybe you can avoid absolute self-destruction, but these people will be absolutly destructive their whole life...most of them have a ton of underlying issues as well.

 

[WannabeShady90]

Missed chance to call that game the "Red Flag Simulator".

 

[Lady Lydia]

This has to be one of the most toxic relationships I've ever seen in a game. Captain SaveAHoe (=MC) should have done what he did at the end of Chapter 3 before the story even started. You can't save broken people. The only reasonable choice is to run as fast and far away from such a situation as possible. I understand that Captain SaveAHoe (and the author by extension) is absolutly broken himself, but is still for some reason blue-pilled. I've seen friends descend into drug addiction and my mother worked her whole career as a psychiatrist...you can't save these people. Maybe you can avoid absolute self-destruction, but these people will be absolutly destructive their whole life...most of them have a ton of underlying issues as well.

Anyone coming around perpetually claiming the MC should have just left Lacey really need to learn to pay attention to the characterization of the MC, you say your mom is a psychiatrist well ask her how easy that'd be for someone suffering from co-dependency and a ton of other issues to leave the one they are co-dependent with, in particular after having been told they'd suicide if they left, I am pretty sure your mom would have said it would take many years of therapy for both before they can disentangle themselves from one another and possibly be able to move on apart. Both of them are suicidal, the MC is very likely to die without Lacey, and Lacey is very likely to die without the MC, and they both are aware of that reality and added to the fact Lacey feel she couldn't leave the MC even if she stopped loving him because she feel she owe him.

The point is its easy to yap about that their relationship is toxic and the MC should be leaving the women he is bound to via a ton of mental issues, but the reality is it wouldn't be that easy, only a fool would think otherwise. The only reason Act 3 the MC leave is because he hallucinated Lacey claiming she was divorcing him, effectively relieving him of the need to be there for her, and that allowed him to leave, albeit likely unless reunited before too long, to his death as he'll keep breaking down even without her around because of all his issues that are still bound to her, so its a death sentence. Seriously all of you that keep supporting him just magically leaving and expecting to be fine need to actually play the game and read what is said, because you clearly missed the majority of the information relating to the mind of the MC and rather substituted your own perception in the analysis of how the MC should act, you are not the MC, he think in his own way and perceive reality in his own way, so the simple solutions wouldn't work for him.

 

[WannabeShady90]

Anyone coming around perpetually claiming the MC should have just left Lacey really need to learn to pay attention to the characterization of the MC, you say your mom is a psychiatrist well ask her how easy that'd be for someone suffering from co-dependency and a ton of other issues to leave the one they are co-dependent with, in particular after having been told they'd suicide if they left, I am pretty sure your mom would have said it would take many years of therapy for both before they can disentangle themselves from one another and possibly be able to move on apart. Both of them are suicidal, the MC is very likely to die without Lacey, and Lacey is very likely to die without the MC, and they both are aware of that reality and added to the fact Lacey feel she couldn't leave the MC even if she stopped loving him because she feel she owe him.

The point is its easy to yap about that their relationship is toxic and the MC should be leaving the women he is bound to via a ton of mental issues, but the reality is it wouldn't be that easy, only a fool would think otherwise. The only reason Act 3 the MC leave is because he hallucinated Lacey claiming she was divorcing him, effectively relieving him of the need to be there for her, and that allowed him to leave, albeit likely unless reunited before too long, to his death as he'll keep breaking down even without her around because of all his issues that are still bound to her, so its a death sentence. Seriously all of you that keep supporting him just magically leaving and expecting to be fine need to actually play the game and read what is said, because you clearly missed the majority of the information relating to the mind of the MC and rather substituted your own perception in the analysis of how the MC should act, you are not the MC, he think in his own way and perceive reality in his own way, so the simple solutions wouldn't work for him.

Any psychiatrist will tell you that you need to leave the source of your mental problems behind. Imagine telling a drug addict "just use more drugs because you are addicted to drugs". Should Captain SaveAHoe seek therapy? Absolutly. Will it be hard? Absolutly. I had a severe depression and PTSD around 10 years ago because I surrounded myself with the wrong people. As I've stated, I'm painfully aware what (child)abuse and drug addiction can do to a person. I used to feel empathy for those people. but they tend to destroy everything around them. As you can probably imagine, I tried to save a few people around me as well, because I also naivly thought I could change anything. My mental health suffered greatly, but those people just descended further into the abyss. Red flags are red flags for a reason and Lacey has so many of them (Abuser, Manipulator, Gaslighter, Self-Harm, Toxic friend group, Drug Addict, high body count, just to name a few) it isn't even funny. It will always end the same way - in a tragedy. I left all those people behind and never looked back. That is the healthy thing to do. Captain SaveAHoe should have asked Anna (loyal, faithful, mostly honest, low body count) to leave the city after college together and start a new life. He should've seeked treatment in college, if not even way earlier. He should've cut contact with the people weighing him down (mostly Lacey and Mia) and ghosted them completly.

 

[funnythings3785]

You MUST read this story as one

1) told by unreliable narrators
2) from a first person POV
3) as a psychological study of flawed people

Starting with the first. Lacey has memory problems, she dissociates, she engages in psychological denial, she takes memory distrubing drugs. The dev has told us time and time again that her pov is not be trusted. Indeed one harem member (can't remember which) tells Gristle than he needed to understand that he has only the heard the story from one POV

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Second, this is not a 3rd person story - we will never learn the truth. This is specifically an unreliable narrator from a 1st person view. Which is to say it's written just like a song of ice and fire. If you know that story is The Imp as good as he thinks he is? As good as others say he is? Or does that the fact that he's noble impact what other people say to him? Hard to tell (until GRRM decides to make him a slave and we realize that all the people saying that's he's super competent aren't right)

Third Lacey has chosen friends who abuse her. The prof acutally knows some psychology and he probably knows that the children from abusive households tend to marry people who abuse them in the same way. If Lacey were healthy she would surround herself with women who support her and accept her as she is. But she's not a healthy person - she's person who deliberately seeks out abusers.

Anna is absolutely a sadist and sexist - just like Gristle. The motivations of the other aren't clear but we shouldn't dismiss the possibility that they are just giving her what she asks for.

Think back to the Las Vegas conversation - Gristle wanted to go to bed and talk in the morning. Lacey insisted on the abuse - don't go to bed, please hurt me first - because it's her role in the marriage and it's what she craves.

Perhaps the best bit of self care Lacey has done is to be nice to some of the strippers in Las Vegas. If she were to make them part of her social circle she woud have SOMEONE in her life who doesn't want to abuse her because she GASP - looks for fainting couch - had sex in college.

The premise of your argument is that essentially "Don't accept what they say, understand what they mean" and the problem with this is that it allows extreme interpretation that requires no real support from the stories dialogue, you simply inject your own meaning and force the story and characters to be as you personally see them, not by what is directly presented by what they do or say.

There really isn't any discussion to be had if this is the argument you are making because no matter how much someone provides dialogue to show conflict with your assessment, you can simply write it off as "unreliable" narration or that the character may have said that, but what they really mean is...

It is an extremely illogical evaluation of the material.

Like I said, interesting take, but it is not supported by the dialogue.

 

[JoeHiggins1949]

This is the best written, most compelling visual novel I have ever read. I see that the first Act was released this past April. When might we expect Act 4? I'm really looking forward to it.

 

[monkeyqueen]

The premise of your argument is that essentially "Don't accept what they say, understand what they mean" and the problem with this is that it allows extreme interpretation that requires no real support from the stories dialogue,

There really isn't any discussion to be had if this is the argument you are making because no matter how much someone provides dialogue to show conflict with your assessment, you can simply write it off as "unreliable" narration or that the character may have said that, but what they really mean is...

It is an extremely illogical evaluation of the material.

It's not that once you realize you are working an unreliable narrator anything goes.

Let me talk about game of thrones / a song of ice and fire because that's the unreliable narrator story most people know best .I'm operating on the assumption that the series was based on the rough drafts of books to come out and SOME of what happened in the series will happen in the book. Notably the showdown between two brothers - Tyrian and Jamie

Tyrion is the bookish nerd, Jamie the dumb jock. Time and time again we hear about how smart Tyrian is. And there is proof - he was able to talk his way out of death sentence. Tyrian reads history and books on military strategy. Jamie learns to swing a sword even harder. In Tyrion's POV he is always saying Jamie is dumb. Jamie's dad agrees. His sister agrees. Jamie = dumb. Jamie loses an important battle and Jamie tells us Jamie is dumb.

So then the showdown happens - opposite sides of a war - jock vs nerd in battle of wits. Who is going to come up the better strategy? Duh - Tyrion who has read all the strategy books right? Nope, Jamie wins - even though every flawed POV statement predicted that Jamie would lose. To accurately predict this out come you had to pay attention to small details in the POVs 1) Tyrian keeps losing at chess games 2) Jamie is capable of learning from his mistakes 3) Jamie isn't as dumb as everyone says he is

It's fun to make predictions about future chapters by locating critical points in the dialogue or description of events - the chess game was the clue you needed to solve that mystery.

So the fun bits of the narrative come from noticing patterns. When Gristle shuts down and refuses to process information someone tells us this happens. "When he's in the mode he won't listen" But the very same thing happens with Lacey but the narrator doesn't tell us this has happened - because Gristle can't allow himself to notice.

So when Lacey goes into this mode

You're right
You're right, I shouldn't have done that
You're right, I did do that and I'm sorry
Please don't leave me!
You are right, I acted horribly
You are right . . . .

You need to connect some dots in the story: she was abused as kid and she learned to survive by agreeing with tormenters. She learned to heal herself by aggreeing to participate in any sex act others wanted her to do. You also need to notice a pattern. I mean rarely is any one right 100 percent of the time but when Lacey is in that mode Gristle is always, always right. Anna is always right. Everyone is always right except Lacey and her stupid decisions.

And we do need to use outside sources to interpret events - usually psychological theory. We know that Lacey is crazy but what type of crazy is she?

This type of crazy:

You must be registered to see the links

 

[funnythings3785]

It's not that once you realize you are working an unreliable narrator anything goes.

Let me talk about game of thrones / a song of ice and fire because that's the unreliable narrator story most people know best .I'm operating on the assumption that the series was based on the rough drafts of books to come out and SOME of what happened in the series will happen in the book. Notably the showdown between two brothers - Tyrian and Jamie

Tyrion is the bookish nerd, Jamie the dumb jock. Time and time again we hear about how smart Tyrian is. And there is proof - he was able to talk his way out of death sentence. Tyrian reads history and books on military strategy. Jamie learns to swing a sword even harder. In Tyrion's POV he is always saying Jamie is dumb. Jamie's dad agrees. His sister agrees. Jamie = dumb. Jamie loses an important battle and Jamie tells us Jamie is dumb.

So then the showdown happens - opposite sides of a war - jock vs nerd in battle of wits. Who is going to come up the better strategy? Duh - Tyrion who has read all the strategy books right? Nope, Jamie wins - even though every flawed POV statement predicted that Jamie would lose. To accurately predict this out come you had to pay attention to small details in the POVs 1) Tyrian keeps losing at chess games 2) Jamie is capable of learning from his mistakes 3) Jamie isn't as dumb as everyone says he is

It's fun to make predictions about future chapters by locating critical points in the dialogue or description of events - the chess game was the clue you needed to solve that mystery.

So the fun bits of the narrative come from noticing patterns. When Gristle shuts down and refuses to process information someone tells us this happens. "When he's in the mode he won't listen" But the very same thing happens with Lacey but the narrator doesn't tell us this has happened - because Gristle can't allow himself to notice.

So when Lacey goes into this mode

You're right
You're right, I shouldn't have done that
You're right, I did do that and I'm sorry
Please don't leave me!
You are right, I acted horribly
You are right . . . .

You need to connect some dots in the story: she was abused as kid and she learned to survive by agreeing with tormenters. She learned to heal herself by aggreeing to participate in any sex act others wanted her to do. You also need to notice a pattern. I mean rarely is any one right 100 percent of the time but when Lacey is in that mode Gristle is always, always right. Anna is always right. Everyone is always right except Lacey and her stupid decisions.

And we do need to use outside sources to interpret events - usually psychological theory. We know that Lacey is crazy but what type of crazy is she?

This type of crazy:

You must be registered to see the links

I am not seeing that at all. You seem to be doing a lot of "injecting" intent, not trying to evaluate it within context.

There is nothing to suggest what you are arguing, only "outside sources" of motivation and intent.

Like I said, you are arguing "Don't listen to what they say and do, pay attention to what they mean" and that allows for complete dismissal of the entire work to insert ones own personal interpretation as they see fit.

Not buying it. I am not saying (and this is based on how the professor writes in the moment) that you could NOT be right, but as it is now, according to the story... not seeing it, pure conjecture you are operating on, not story analysis.

 

[monkeyqueen]

I don't believe pattern recognition is pure conjecture.

Unreliable, first person POV is a literary tool. I argue it is being used here you can disagree but there are numerous times in the text when someone says "that's just one POV" That is written in first person is just obvious.

Again, I've asked you what part of my theory you disagree with you haven't said so I'll just choose my favorite:

Gristle is the monster. This is a Fight Club moment where we realize that the two characters were one and the same because the MC of that story has dissociative identity disorder.

Support in the text "when do I get to be the monster in this relationship" Weird phrasing, right? Because the phrase is "when do I get to be the bad guy"?

The monster knows things that IT professionals do.

The monster knows details about Lacey's childhood and her family dynamics

..................

Could I be wrong? Yes. Am I just pulling this from the air? No.

 

[Maviarab]

Gristle is the monster. This is a Fight Club moment where we realize that the two characters were one and the same because the MC of that story has dissociative identity disorder.

Support in the text "when do I get to be the monster in this relationship" Weird phrasing, right? Because the phrase is "when do I get to be the bad guy"?

The monster knows things that IT professionals do.

The monster knows details about Lacey's childhood and her family dynamics

oh you so like waffling some shit.

The monster was revealed in ACT3. he is somone Veronica has slept with/done business with and owes her a favour. Do you just skip forward looking for the bits to hate on men or absolve lying sluts and just ignore the rest of the material?

 

[monkeyqueen]

Why can't that be Gristle?

In fight club the guy running the club was the same guy who joined the club. Tyler Durden (Brad Pitt) did all sorts of things that Eduard Norton wasn't aware of. I mean "Tyler" jumped on planes to act like a monster while the good guy wrestled with the morality of it all.

 

[funnythings3785]

I don't believe pattern recognition is pure conjecture.

Unreliable, first person POV is a literary tool. I argue it is being used here you can disagree but there are numerous times in the text when someone says "that's just one POV" That is written in first person is just obvious.

Again, I've asked you what part of my theory you disagree with you haven't said so I'll just choose my favorite:

Gristle is the monster. This is a Fight Club moment where we realize that the two characters were one and the same because the MC of that story has dissociative identity disorder.

Support in the text "when do I get to be the monster in this relationship" Weird phrasing, right? Because the phrase is "when do I get to be the bad guy"?

The monster knows things that IT professionals do.

The monster knows details about Lacey's childhood and her family dynamics

..................

Could I be wrong? Yes. Am I just pulling this from the air? No.

I am discussing generally, because you have already established that "literal" has no meaning. There isn't any objection I could provide through context of dialogue that would allow you to accept deviation from your evaluation. I am merely pointing out that your "view" of the issue is based heavily on your individual interpretation and an "outside" one as you have established.

I am sure there are some here who are willing to go into specifics concerning the dialogue with you and argue context and individual points of merit, but I am neither versed to such extensive knowledge to properly defend the story, nor have the desire to do such.

So as I said, I think your take is definitely interesting, but I do not see it as paying respect to the story dialogue and circumstances specifically.

I don't mean any disrespect and as I said in previous discussion with others, a discussion of diametrically opposed views can either be attended to through extensive discussion, or they can simply be respected as "opposed". At this point, I honestly don't think anything I provide (partly my fault for the unwillingness to commit to this depth of discourse) would provide any value in discussion with you.

I may enter at some point to specifics, but as it stands.. there is too much to cover, too much to break down and I just don't have the knowledge or means of the story to pay you the respect in the disagreement I would have.

I hope that is reasonable.

 

[monkeyqueen]

Thanks for the kind words. You come across as reasonable and I appreciate that you are able to communicate without attacking.

I don't know if you read the scapegoating link I sent but I do think this interpretation is strongly supported by the text. Abuse victims who blame themselves get shuffled into the scapegoat role in the family. Therapy means learned to stop accepting the blame from others.

Here is a quote from the link:

Have you ever left a family gathering feeling like you were the problem — even though you didn’t do anything wrong?

Maybe it seems like no matter what happens, you’re the one who gets blamed.

If someone’s upset, it must be your fault.

If there’s conflict, you’re accused of “starting it.”

Even when you try your hardest to keep the peace, it’s never enough.

If this sounds familiar, you may have been pushed into a painful role you never asked for: the family scapegoat.

And if this is you, you’re not imagining it — and you’re not broken.

You’ve simply been cast in a role that was never yours to carry.

That's Lacey. And therapy for her would be a real threat to the relationship because she would no longer accept that she is always at fault for everything that goes wrong. Let's hope some monster doesn't come along and ruin her chances of recovery!

 

[funnythings3785]

Why can't that be Gristle?

In fight club the guy running the club was the same guy who joined the club. Tyler Durden (Brad Pitt) did all sorts of things that Eduard Norton wasn't aware of. I mean "Tyler" jumped on planes to act like a monster while the good guy wrestled with the morality of it all.

Quick confirmation? I assume "Gristle" is the name for the MC you have given?