Ren'Py Monster Girl Dreams [v26.2a Alpha] [Threshold]

[NinjaNamedBob]

To be entirely fair, it's not like the humans were innocent. A large amount of the atrocities mentioned should be seen in the context of a war in which both sides did absolutely horrible things to each other, especially Kotone's backstory - and while there might be no way to "balance the scale" for soul-eating re: Sofia, I think it's if anything more worthy of respect if she'd know that, but try for forgiveness anyway.

As for SHRIFT, that's a different and much more kill-or-be-killed game.

I don't think it really justifies the bullshit, though. As someone else points out later, Kotone continues to do some screwed-up stuff, and shows little remorse for it. Sofia even points out the end result of your involvement with her. Kotone doesn't tell you straight-up what your inevitable future will be once she gets bored, or implies that she would get bored. She allows the PC to make a bad decision without informing them of any negative conequences.

I can actually justify Sofia more on that basis, too. She never states outright that she's turned a new leaf or anything. She's just exhausted due to a lack of sustenance/entertainment, and given all the monster girls on the island are basically neutered, she probably doesn't feel very threatened by anything. She even outright states that she's letting you pass the trial without a fight because it's not worth crushing your aspirations this early. She was probably a high-ranking general of sorts who enjoyed the battlefield, was trapped on an island where succubi (like her) have the advantage in combat, and got bored after the first 200 hundred or so adventurers lost to her. Understandably, she's just bored as Hell and has stopped giving a damn.

No. While yes, MGD is not like a MGQ overall concept is kinda similar.

MGQ tries to replace porn with plot, and it works. The main thing that a lot of devs (especially ones on places like this) forget is that it still understood that it is, by its bare premise, a porn game. it just decided halfway through the first game that it was also developing characters. In that sense, I would say the closest comparison to MGD is Lust Grimm. Both are porn games with minimal focus on an overarching plot and world-building. MGQ gave us an excuse as to why people are afraid of monsters. Lust Grimm just tells us "succubi are kind of voracious and you probably shouldn't risk getting raped too often."

But MGQ is not like shrift at all.
MGQ was about "HEY, stop being an asshole that milk semen from mens and kills them!!!!" with main point on "be peaceful m8, `mnkay".
Shrift is about "Im gonna make you my bitch...food...living sex toy...ehhh, something........unless, unless, you kill me.....also you can tame me, for whatever reason". While game heavily implies that "they just a blood sex hungry demons, dont kill THINK ABOUT FUTURE!!!!!!" its doing it.....strange.

As someone playing pacifist route of Shrift... no. Not even close. In the pacifist route, it's very clear that the demons are trying to survive. Ones like the Barghest and Lampas are, for the most part, basically animals subsisting on the one form of sustenance available to them only because they're mostly driven by instinct. When we get to "higher thinking" demons like Mother Rabbit and the Neko Sisters, the rationalizations get more grey. MR is driven by a maternal instinct and only behaved as she did due to

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

The Neko Sisters are basically just strays barely surviving and doing what it takes to do so. Since the whole point is "demons can corrupt," they use that to survive.

The M.O.W.'s are

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Like in MGQ its clear if you get into monster girls hands its the end for you, youll be eaten and raped, without particular order. Straight and clear, kill to live, live to kill.
And in shrift its like "if demon catches you its kinda the end, but actually not, also you can fight back, or dont, or tame her, hmhmhm......".

Um, not particularly in either case. In Shrift, it's more about survival for the demons with lesser intelligence, while the higher-functioning ones are more empathetic and are usually victims of circumstance. In MGQ, Alice makes it clear that monsters only rape because Ilias fear-mongered and threatened to nuke everything to oblivion as a result, which forced the hand of the first monster lord. A lot of monsters are content to seduce Luka into a life of marital bliss, while others do attempt predation because of course they do. I think maybe a handful do the "milking slave" thing, and only because again, it's free food. Hell, there are I think two side quests where saving Human settlements is resolved because the persons who initiated the conflict were mistreated. I empathized more with Queen Ant than I did the people who died when she threw her rebellion. She even has a "suicide by cop" moment when you beat her, as if she feels legitimate remorse for the victims of her rebellion and wants to atone for it.

while we are talking about Shrift here. while i do like the game, i gotta admit the game screwed up when it comes to making the monster-girls sympathetic. they act like "ahh yes, come here my walking sex-slave nutrition package" but the games tries to give you the "they're not that bad" angle once it comes to befriending them. no offense, but you just tried to either brainwash me, eat me, or turn me into a lamp just a second ago, and the corpses of the other people speak for themselves. the girls really don't leave a good first impression on you.

As stated about, a fair number of the demons in Shrift are going on instinct. The ones who can manage more than "you food, me eat" are victims of a conflict they were effectively forced to take part in. Heck, Mother Rabbit is a victim of the fallout, as are the Neko Sisters. It's shitty, but I wouldn't fault them for their actions too harshly, since they're not exactly operating under the best of circumstances. Oh, and don't get me started on Mu. Just... yikes.

by all accounts, MGD does a way better job at presenting sympathetic characters, even if some of them got some dirt on them. not as dangerous as the girls on shrift, but leave a far better first impression. helps that most of them here are just Really horny. and not a danger to anyone but your waist area.

They're really horny as a consequence of divine bullshit, though. Sophia makes a pretty clear impression of being able to outclass basically everyone below the DQ at this point, but does nothing because she's bored. Hell, the entire forest dungeon makes it clear that most of the first stage monsters are just done with trying at this point. The imps only try to rape any adventurers who enter the dungeon because it's a bit of excitement in the otherwise boring life they're currently living. The alraunes, elves, and slimes are very obviously sex addicts. The bag mimic had to artificially set her own difficulty. Yes, the forest dungeon is full of bored monsters and also shy mushrooms.

The will dungeon just basically repeats this premise, with one over-achieving succubus training an army while two oni sisters hold out hope that they'll one day face a challenge. Kotone is still doing her old schtick of using and dumping toys, while Minoni is still somewhat taking her job seriously. Most of the monsters range from either being too bored to care, or complete sex addicts, or just over-enthusiastic employees. I never got the impression from any of them (aside your rival arch-nemesis and your lizard waifu) that any of the monsters were really bothered by their circumstances either way. Hard to empathize with people who show no real discontent about their position.

Thanks for the responses everyone and for the warnings and views on shrift I may check it out but it kinda seems like it demonizes you for killing literal murderous demons just based off what I read so far. On Kotone since some have brought up defenses for her I am torn cuz she is obviously very mesed up in the head but ultimately I still think she is evil because despite claiming she has changed in order to romance her you have to be Spoilers below[/spoiler]

It's actually a bit more complicated than punishing you for going DEUS VULT in Shrift. Your character is basically a super-weapon that can compete with the demons, as opposed to having to rely on the existing tech to survive. That means that in this instance, you're powerful enough to effectively kill them, which in turn affects your relationship with them going forward. A few of them are even non-aggressive and will become wary of you if you decide to go the genocide route. In the pacifist route, you actually get a better understanding as to why they're behaving how they do. The M.O.W.'s themselves are even more tragic once you understand who they were as people.

Enslaved by her hypnotism and if we talk to sofia we know what she did to those she hypnotized in the past once she tired of them. She sent them off to have their souls devoured. That in my opinion is horrendously evil not only did she break their minds and toy with them for years but then when she grew tired of this she cast them aside and gave them a fate worse than death. I am sorry but having a horrible experience with one human and losing your mother as a result of your own actions cannot even start to excuse this. Losing a friend to a human archer is also no excuse to permanently destroy peoples souls either. Kill the one responsible sure but make people your toys and then utterly destroy them when you are bored no.

I could easily see the tragedy of Kotone's story if she made every effort to dissuade you from indulging her whole "hypnotize you into slavery" schtick. She doesn't, though. Instead, she goes through with it, shows zero remorse (even if your repeated visits were of your own "free will"), and then afterwards even implies that completing the dungeon on her "hard mode" is a way to win her everlasting affection. When Sophia informs you of what that actually means, I don't think it even becomes a conversation topic between you both. Kotone never makes any effort to state outright that she's amusing herself at your expense, and it's likely you'll be discarded when she gets bored.

I respect Sophia for at least making it clear that if she could ever find a worthy challenge to keep her excited, she'd give more effort. She's bored as Hell and doesn't see you as a threat, which makes sense that early. Kotone is just a closet sadist while Sophia is an honest layabout.

She says she has changed but then what does she do to you? She lies and enslaves you like all the others who caught her eye despite the oni sisters stating she said she would not do so. Maybe one day she gets bored of you she already shows she values her word at nothing and is willing to lie who is to say she will not simply discard you as well like she did so many others?

Yeah, that's what bothers me about her character. I get that this is the most sincere interpretation of the kitsune from Japanese folklore, but she really doesn't deserve any sympathy. She's made it known far and wide to everyone except the PC that this is a repeat behaviour she has zero interest in changing. If someone disabled "no kills" mode in this world, the purge would probably begin and end with her. Might include Sophia if she got too aggressive.

while on the subject, what is SHRIFT ? never heard of that one before

An rpg by Devil's Office that was released in chapters a couple years ago iirc. It's basically Undertale except the monsters want to sex you.

 

[VespidV]

I want to disagree but I can't.
Even if she seems all mellow and giddy now after you manage to "properly" romance her, there's always going to be that little doubt at the back of our mind, like, what if this is just another elaborate and convenient lie to catch us under her thumb and/or use us in some way, or what if she finds something else to focus her attention on and completely peels us off of her life like a used band aid?
While I can sympathize with her situation, because revenge and anger do tend to deafen everything else, there's a long road to cross between showing sympathy and wanting to be her foot stool (literally, in her case).

Although, to the game's credit, you're not actually forced to do either. You can just complete the thing and then never see her again.

If choose to respond during her final hypnosis session with the "I trusted you" response and then choose to break down in tears it's pretty clear she's not actually that kind of person as she'll actually let you undo her hypnosis effects right away rather than making you do her challenge which isn't something a person whose trying to manipulate someone into allowing them to control their mind would do. And I highly doubt there'd be any reason to suspect she'd "abandon" you after you choose to pursue a relationship with her because if you choose to cry in the final session when you take her entire character into account she chooses to let you go immediately if you want in part because it actually triggered her trauma from losing her tail once she realized she just took advantage of your trust to sate her own desires like the guy from her past did to her.

 

[VespidV]

Aside from everything before romancing here being a test of hers, she tells you the reason: She needs the control because she's unable to trust even you just like that. She needs a safety measure until you can actually make her trust even a single human again. Also, noone even came close to romancing here, there are no others wtf?

I think they're misunderstanding the other adventures Kotone did the hypnosis on for the trials with the people she mind controlled when she was going around with Sofia.

 

[NinjaNamedBob]

Kotone literally got her tail ripped out of her, she went around to hunt all those monster girl poachers whilst Sofia just kinda tagged along. Kotone in hindsight regrets going at them like that, but that mostly stems from her losing her family because of it. Killing a bunch of torturous, raping black marketeers is hardly something to be condemned for.

I mean, there is a fate worse than death, and that's being a cripple left incapable of fending for themselves, at the whims of those you hurt, thrust upon their mercy with your only option of escape being self-termination should you ever figure out a way to do so. Going less deranged, you could be beaten to a pulp, thrown before your leaders, and have your near-death experience/example be a statement to those like you who got it in their heads to pursue a similar path. Play stupid games, etc.

Now Sofia. Her role is mostly to stand as a contrast to the new situation. She tells you how it was and what the queen changed with the enchantment. There is nothing to forgive, she doesn't even seek atonement really. She just changed her ways and thats that. A valuable lesson about a person changing not warranting anything by itself.

My understanding is Sophia is just bored. She can basically solo most adventurers and cripple the island's economy since, y'know, who wants to even attempt the gauntlet when the first and last boss is a succubi who doesn't even need to mount you to defeat you? Kind of a bullshit first boss. So, she just pumps her aura a bit and says "take the gold medal and fuck off" because most people at that point are barely a threat to her. I'd probably do the same in her position. When you're powerful enough to one-shot everything that comes your way, what the fuck is the point anymore?

Nevermind there was a war going on and as we know even decent people can turn into monsters... humanity is hardly innocent here, much less the people Kotone killed.

I mean, what one does during a war is never justified by the times. We had war crime tribunals for that very reason. People still get on Japan's case for all that shit during WWII, even if they adamantly deny any of it happened. The point is, you can offer all the hollow justifications you want, but that doesn't immediately forgive any of the shit that a person does. Kotone probably stepped over the line a number of times, and while her rage is understandable, her actions aren't. All she did was further propagate the tragedies on both sides and embolden those who already doing what they were doing. She changed literally nothing and actively made things worse. I can hardly empathize with someone who "changed cause she got stopped." Even Sophia isn't that surface-level shallow. And that bitch would likely screw with Humanity if she ever got out just cause it would amuse her.

Valid point, if it wasn't for those they killed being horrible pieces of shit themselves. Kotone limited herself to the people belonging to the same group as the one who, again, literally ripped a piece of her body AND SOUL out of her.

Many of which were likely part of that organization as a result of circumstance, whether survival or loyalty, or whathaveyou demanded it. Yeah, no, she doesn't get a pass because she limited herself to slaughtering a group of people, some of which were probably just getting by without little to no understanding of how closely-resembling their victims were to them in terms of experiencing suffering. A bit of Christmas on the front lines would have changed a lot of minds, methinks. Can we still justify Kotone wholesale slaughtering an entire organization after that?

Aside from everything before romancing here being a test of hers, she tells you the reason: She needs the control because she's unable to trust even you just like that. She needs a safety measure until you can actually make her trust even a single human again. Also, noone even came close to romancing here, there are no others wtf?

I don't buy that. On the island, it's impossible to kill or inflict lasting harm (of a non-sexual variety), so she's at basically zero risk of coming to harm from trusting you even slightly. It's more like she's so convinced of her own bullshit that at this point, not doing things this way is a loss of control that she can't tolerate. She's a narcissist convinced that the world is out for her, and the only way you can get anything remotely approaching "empathy" off her is if you willingly submit to her designs, for better or worse. She screams insecurity bogged under ego, and the only appeal she has (for me, anyways) is the whole "obvious villainous with mind control powers" role. Outside that, all I get from her is someone who probably should have been dealt with before the war ended.

But what actually boggles me the most: Did you really condemn multiple entire species' for the actions of very few that don't even belong to their own species? What the fuck do you mean "just as awful as they are"? Who are "they"? What the actual fuck my dude?!? You seem to have some *very* serious problems...

I mean, the same could be said of you. A few bad eggs in an organization does not make the rest akin to them. I would even shame Threshold for stating in no uncertain terms that the people who Kotone slaughtered were all irredeemably evil. I think the nuance here is, she chose to murder indiscriminately, didn't even attempt to make examples of anyone. Sophia is more justifiable in her position, since as a military leader, she's basically signed on for the role. Kotone had a number of choices and while I don't justify allowing evil to go unpunished, it's pretty clear she crossed the line in her pursuit of "justice." I'm thinking the Goddess only allowed her to even continue existing is because she was at least focused on (mostly) justifiable kills.

 

[NinjaNamedBob]

If choose to respond during her final hypnosis session with the "I trusted you" response and then choose to break down in tears it's pretty clear she's not actually that kind of person as she'll actually let you undo her hypnosis effects right away rather than making you do her challenge which isn't something a person whose trying to manipulate someone into allowing them to control their mind would do. And I highly doubt there'd be any reason to suspect she'd "abandon" you after you choose to pursue a relationship with her because if you choose to cry in the final session when you take her entire character into account she chooses to let you go immediately if you want in part because it actually triggered her trauma from losing her tail once she realized she just took advantage of your trust to sate her own desires like the guy from her past did to her.

Oh, man, a moment of emotional fallout from realizing you're crossing the line (once again, no less) with someone who, rather of their own volition or not, has reached out to your "Humanity", likely out of desperation. It's still a form of manipulation, though. She's giving you the choice this time, but there's no telling at that point how much of her behaviour is play-acting to some implanted trigger, and how much of it is your own will. And before you even argue that that doesn't make sense, it's something that a sociopath does. It's something that narcissists do. It's a way for them to trick you into showing them some sympathy so they can continue doing their bullshit (albeit, to a reduced degree) under the guise of "being a better person."

She probably doesn't even recognize the similarity to her own trauma, or if she does, has a warped view of things. Sophia makes it clear under no delusion of kindness that Kotone has only ever taken someone as amusement for herself, and will discard them afterwards. Hell, we don't know how many adventurers have been to see Kotone directly before us, so we could safely assume that this is just an old favourite of hers.

I think they're misunderstanding the other adventures Kotone did the hypnosis on for the trials with the people she mind controlled when she was going around with Sofia.

She's mind controlled adventurers, too. It's made blatantly clear that this is a repeat behaviour since before, during, and after the war. It's not like she suddenly started doing it again with you exclusively.

 

[VespidV]

Oh, man, a moment of emotional fallout from realizing you're crossing the line (once again, no less) with someone who, rather of their own volition or not, has reached out to your "Humanity", likely out of desperation. It's still a form of manipulation, though. She's giving you the choice this time, but there's no telling at that point how much of her behaviour is play-acting to some implanted trigger, and how much of it is your own will. And before you even argue that that doesn't make sense, it's something that a sociopath does. It's something that narcissists do. It's a way for them to trick you into showing them some sympathy so they can continue doing their bullshit (albeit, to a reduced degree) under the guise of "being a better person."

She probably doesn't even recognize the similarity to her own trauma, or if she does, has a warped view of things. Sophia makes it clear under no delusion of kindness that Kotone has only ever taken someone as amusement for herself, and will discard them afterwards. Hell, we don't know how many adventurers have been to see Kotone directly before us, so we could safely assume that this is just an old favourite of hers.



She's mind controlled adventurers, too. It's made blatantly clear that this is a repeat behaviour since before, during, and after the war. It's not like she suddenly started doing it again with you exclusively.

I don't know man I feel like you're just deliberately going out of your way trying to have the worst possible interpretation of her character, like you mention that Sofia will reveal a lot of this stuff about her as if Kotone doesn't but she also tells you everything Sofia mentions herself so it's not like she's actually trying to keep it secret and the game is trying to cast doubt on whether she's telling the truth by only revealing it through Sofia. There's also the fact that you're conveniently ignoring the fact that Sofia herself says that she's certain Kotone regrets what she did in the past and also brings up that Kotone really wants to find a marriage partner, which implies she's not just fucking with you with her relationship stuff. Also be incredibly weird if Kotone is the one character's whose perk removal can't be trusted and would instead be only an a ploy where she only partly removed her control over you when it doesn't work that way for any other character perks.

She probably doesn't even recognize the similarity to her own trauma, or if she does, has a warped view of things. Sophia makes it clear under no delusion of kindness that Kotone has only ever taken someone as amusement for herself, and will discard them afterwards. Hell, we don't know how many adventurers have been to see Kotone directly before us, so we could safely assume that this is just an old favourite of hers.

I'd think the fact that she only acts that way if you choose those very specific combination of options and will instead play up either the whole "I'm in control of your mind now, what are you going to do about it?" or the "prove your love/devotion as my slave" angles with any other combination shows that it's clearly meant to have resonated with her to a degree.

She's mind controlled adventurers, too. It's made blatantly clear that this is a repeat behaviour since before, during, and after the war. It's not like she suddenly started doing it again with you exclusively.

You're just repeating what I said? But like I said earlier the dialogue option with Sofia where she mentions how Kotone would mind control large numbers of people is immediately followed by the dialogue where Sofia says she's certain that Kotone regrets her past. This implies that not only does she regret her killings but that she also regrets how she mind controlled people to that degree where they were essentially already dead and that she doesn't really take anything farther with other adventures than the final session you take in the game anymore.

 

[Crestrial]

Thanks for the responses everyone and for the warnings and views on shrift I may check it out but it kinda seems like it demonizes you for killing literal murderous demons just based off what I read so far.

Ehh... I wouldn't go that far. If a dog attacked you and you wounded it to where it starts running away, do you sprint it down to finish it off when its given up? That's about 95% of the cases in SHRIFT. They need you to survive, so it's like claiming an animal to be a murderer.

As for the ongoing Kotone debate. It's weird seeing people empathize with her at all. She's there to heavily play into a femdom hypnosis fetish. Really though, she's a control freak who'd commit war crimes and her excuse is because she was a thot who wanted Sir Chad but Sir Chad turned out to be a real asshole, so now it has to be everyone else's problem. Kotone is shit tier.

 

[NinjaNamedBob]

But she didn't just kill them she killed their families and their friends sparing only the children. After destroying that group she went on to target other humans after her friend Feng was dead. Sofia says as much. She did not limit herself to that group that is obvious. She killed far too many for that to be the case. She joined up with the demon queen and Sophia after fang's death and worked with them for centuries.

This. Putting aside that Feng was killed (a tragedy which was likely propagated by Kotone's bullshit, so y'know, now she's victim-blaming the people who probably saw Feng the way Kotone saw their family/friends) and further provoked her, how does someone justify going after the loved ones who likely aren't involved in the conflict either way? Are we okay with the wholesale slaughter of one side cause a few bad eggs did some really fucked up shit?

As awful as they are I did not imply all the mosters were awful just sofia and Kotone notice in my following response that you conveniently cut out I clarified this by stating that some of the ones we meet are not really bad at all. Way to put words into my mouth and grand stand though.

I will say it again, aside Kotone and Sophia, the monsters are either sex-crazed, over-enthusiastic interns, or just bored as Hell. I can't fault a lot of them for their behaviour. Hell, the manticore even shows remorse for getting you addicted to her venom and does her utmost to fix you, which is already more sincere a gesture than Kotone ever makes. The manticore even actively refuses to encourage or humour your desire to get addicted again iirc.

The other slaves she had are brought up with her and in some conversations with Sofia namely the one where you ask if she has any friends. There ultimate fate having their souls consumed is also elaborated here. You are not the first person she has done this to and I doubt you will be the last. In the conversation sofia brings up she broke heroes and villains alike just for the fun of it. She kept a retinue of mindbroken sex slaves ad when she got bored of them she sent them off to sofia to have their very souls devoured.

This is the part I get stuck on, and why I can't grasp how anyone can feel sympathy for Kotone. Okay, yeah, she suffered. I empathize, sympathize, moisturize that. It happened, she got her revenge, yadda-yadda. But, then, she went a step further and targeted likely interns who had no idea what was really going on, or the level of harm being caused by their superiors. Then, she went after the friends and family of those organizations, and left behind a lot of orphans. Did she have a moment of clarity afterwards and open an orphanage for said orphans? Nope! She continued her wholesale slaughter which likely resulted in a friend's death, and used that as an excuse to keep going.

At NO POINT was Kotone ever attempting anything resembling remorse except that one time her and all the other monsters got slapped onto an island and told that they'll probably spend the rest of forever there as the training fodder to upstart heroes. And she's only likely showing any attempt at "changing" as an attempt to deceive the authorities so they might let her off the island.

Oh yes what a victim she had a handful of admittedly awful experiences and then inflicted far worse torments on thousands she lost a part of her soul sure but what of the hundreds she mind raped and broke for her onw amusment and then sent off to a fate worse than death? If anyone is messed up here it is you friend.

This right fucking here. She lost a portion of her power, a part of herself. She's also immortal from what we know of monsters, so unless she's somehow at risk of being murdered at any point, it's doubtful that she won't regain either that portion of her soul or her body over time. She was also cognizant of her actions, so I'm not buying that she was so enraged that she had no idea of how much bloodshed she was causing.

I don't know man I feel like your just deliberately going out of your way trying to have the worst possible interpretation of her character, like you mention that Sofia will reveal a lot of this stuff about her as if Kotone doesn't but she also tells you everything Sofia mentions herself so it's not like she's actually trying to keep it secret and the game is trying to cast doubt on whether she's telling the truth by only revealing it through Sofia. There's also the fact that you're conveniently ignoring the fact that Sofia herself says that she's certain Kotone regrets what she did in the past and also brings up that Kotone really wants to find a marriage partner, which implies she's not just fucking with you with her relationship stuff. Also be incredibly weird if Kotone is the one character's whose perk removal can't be trusted and would instead be only an a ploy where she only partly removed her control over you when it doesn't work that way for any other character perks.

Having a secondary character themselves tell you something about another person, and then that person admit that yeah, all of that shit is true, that's not being sincere. Kotone shouldn't need a prompt from an old war buddy to admit she'll dump you in a ditch the moment you stop being entertaining. Sophia tells you that she's certain that Kotone regrets her actions, but how often does Sophia even leave her dungeon? From our perspective, she's barely giving a damn about doing her job at this point. She probably only visits Kotone once every other decade, and that's only cause she gets bored enough to. It's not hard to take at face value what someone who barely manages to entertain you says. As for sincerely wanting a marriage partner, that's a two-way street.

Kotone removing her perk as a "trust" gesture isn't weird if you understand even basic abuser psychology, which you clearly don't. Abusers will do things that seem sincere to regain your trust, rather than compel you. The gesture lasts for a short period, but it's generally long enough to re-establish their position in your life. At that point, you've allowed them permission to resume their behaviour, as bereft as I am to imply that the victim is at fault. Kotone doesn't even make it a condition of her romance path that the hypnosis stuff is bedroom-exclusive from that point forward, either. She makes it a goddamn condition to attempt her romance route. I repeat, she forces you to undergo the process and then complete the dungeon as-such. You cannot tell me that that is healthy behaviour for a relationship.

I'd think the fact that she only acts that way if you choose those very specific combination of options and will instead play up either the whole "I'm in control of your mind now, what are you going to do about it?" or the "prove your love/devotion as my slave" angles with any other combination shows that it's clearly meant to have resonated with her to a degree.

She shouldn't need it, though? Like, it's even written when you do attempt to break free any other way that you have no choice. She won't allow it, unless you specifically choose the option called "I trust you," which again, is likely your character speaking from desperation in a situation they have no control in. It's not romantic, it's not healthy, and it's frankly the kind of shit where most people with a shred of experience with healthy relationships would be like "stay the fuck out of my life!"

You're just repeating what I said? But like I said earlier the dialogue option with Sofia where she mentions how Kotone would mind control large numbers of people is immediately followed by the dialogue where Sofia says she's certain that Kotone regrets her past. This implies that not only does she regret her killings but that she also regrets how she mind controlled people to that degree where they were essentially already dead and that she doesn't really take anything farther with other adventures than the final session you take in the game anymore.

Given the context of what we come to learn of her, and the fact that Sophia has stopped giving literal fucks about anything, it's more likely she's heavily implying in that same context that Kotone regrets getting caught more than she does any of the shit she did. Kotone is still hypnotizing adventurers outside of the trials. Mika doesn't do that. Vili might have, except again, she technically qualifies as a trial herself. Even whatsherface who runs the main inn doesn't actually do anything untowards you without you requesting it. Kotone is the one who exclusively breaks the rules under the guise of "helping" except when you even call her out on it, she doesn't offer you the option of stopping it and undoing the damage like all the others. Even Vili, who technically follows the same logic, makes it known to you that there are consequences of engaging her beforehand.

So, yeah, no, Kotone is an abusive cunt who fulfills a fetish role, but otherwise deserves no sympathy.

 

[TheeSonus]

Fox girl is a cunt. There you go, solved your argument. Go fuck hot monster girls.

 

[Suwi]

I can't believe that you guys haven't turned all your arguments and opinions into one big essay compilation.

Jokes aside, at least you all are learning that there isn't really exactly a good or bad person in this game.

Everyone has their own circumstances to deal with and are busy figuring it out on their own. You (Player) are an adventurer that gets involved with them as you see fit.

In my opinion, I would just role play to be a modern day monster girl therapist both in physical and mental health. Helping these troubled beings in Lucidia's and Godesses' Fashion.

Edit: That's why Ancilla is best girl.

 

[VespidV]

Ehh... I wouldn't go that far. If a dog attacked you and you wounded it to where it starts running away, do you sprint it down to finish it off when its given up? That's about 95% of the cases in SHRIFT. They need you to survive, so it's like claiming an animal to be a murderer.

As for the ongoing Kotone debate. It's weird seeing people empathize with her at all. She's there to heavily play into a femdom hypnosis fetish. Really though, she's a control freak who'd commit war crimes and her excuse is because she was a thot who wanted Sir Chad but Sir Chad turned out to be a real asshole, so now it has to be everyone else's problem. Kotone is shit tier.

Don't forget that my whole point wasn't whether or not Kotone did fucked up shit or whether people should like her or not but that the story doesn't want you to think that her and Sofia are irredeemable monsters that should be killed. And while the story doesn't try to justify Sofia's actions or try to make you develop any empathy for her beyond feeling sorry for her lack of ability to feel emotions it does try to explain Kotone's and tries to make you feel some empathy towards Kotone regardless of whether you think it's warranted/deserved or not.

 

[NinjaNamedBob]

I can't believe that you guys haven't turned all your arguments and opinions into one big essay compilation.

Jokes aside, at least you all are learning that there isn't really exactly a good or bad person in this game.

Everyone has their own circumstances to deal with and are busy figuring it out on their own. You (Player) are an adventurer that gets involved with them as you see fit.

In my opinion, I would just role play to be a modern day monster girl therapist both in physical and mental health. Helping these troubled beings in Lucidia's and Godesses' Fashion.

Edit: That's why Ancilla is best girl.

I was gonna tear down your neutral stance until you mentioned Ancilla being best grill, at which point I realized you appreciate a waifu who needs a good cuddle after a long day of tolerating everyone else's shit. I can't dump on someone with such good taste.

Don't forget that my whole point wasn't whether or not Kotone did fucked up shit or whether people should like her or not but that the story doesn't want you to think that her and Sofia are irredeemable monsters that should be killed. And while the story doesn't try to justify Sofia's actions or try to make you develop any empathy for her beyond feeling sorry for her lack of ability to feel emotions it does try to explain Kotone's and tries to make you feel some empathy towards Kotone regardless of whether you think it's warranted/deserved or not.

I don't think Kotone or Sophia are irredeemable. I think the former would only redeem herself for her own benefit, while the latter has zero interest since, y'know, it's only going to end with her being further bored. Sophia also doesn't seem emotionless. In fact, when you smack her with Demon Slayer, she gets pretty pissed. She even warns you 3 times before going I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING on your punk-hero-ass. She shows indications of excitement when you present a challenge. Sophia is plenty emotional. Ancilla is closer to emotionless, but I would be pretty indifferent too if my boss was as lazy as Sofia and my co-workers (aside two over-qualified idiots) were basically useless. That girl carries the entire dungeon and we're all unsympathetic jerks for not giving her the cuddles she deserves.

In fact, I'm hereby petitioning that Threshold work on an Ancilla romance route that ends in lifelong cuddles with the PC. All other content development must cease until Ancilla is properly compensated for her contributions.

 

[VespidV]

Sophia is plenty emotional. Ancilla is closer to emotionless, but I would be pretty indifferent too if my boss was as lazy as Sofia and my co-workers (aside two over-qualified idiots) were basically useless. That girl carries the entire dungeon and we're all unsympathetic jerks for not giving her the cuddles she deserves.

Am I remembering it wrong or something? Because I'm pretty sure I remember Ancilla saying something along the lines that Sofia was basically nearly emotionless when she first started working for her and that over time she's reached the point where she currently is where she's still pretty apathetic and also still seems to not be able to empathize with others very well considering she's still seemingly confused as to why Kotone changed after Feng died.

 

[NinjaNamedBob]

Am I remembering it wrong or something? Because I'm pretty sure I remember Ancilla saying something along the lines that Sofia was basically nearly emotionless when she first started working for her and that over time she's reached the point where she currently is where she's still pretty apathetic and also still seems to not be able to empathize with others very well considering she's still seemingly confused as to why Kotone changed after Feng died.

She says Sophia is specifically detached from her emotions and will feign interest if you manage to amuse her, but nothing about being emotionless. In fact, Ancilla points out that she would rather you don't antagonize Sophia, since it would cause the latter to become enraged and Ancilla would rather Sophia keep from experiencing negative emotions. There is a difference between detachment and lack of emotion. Being detached simply means you have chosen not to experience emotions, and given what is mentioned about Sophia's lethargy, it's likely a result of being bored all the time.

 

[Quintilus]

MGQ tries to replace porn with plot, and it works. The main thing that a lot of devs (especially ones on places like this) forget is that it still understood that it is, by its bare premise, a porn game. it just decided halfway through the first game that it was also developing characters. In that sense, I would say the closest comparison to MGD is Lust Grimm. Both are porn games with minimal focus on an overarching plot and world-building. MGQ gave us an excuse as to why people are afraid of monsters. Lust Grimm just tells us "succubi are kind of voracious and you probably shouldn't risk getting raped too often."

Thats because plot in MGQ is actually good. Somebody tried to make it so.
Of course its not ideal (zombie with minigun in a world of magic? what?), but there are no plot holes, SUDDEN revelations in third chapter , and everything that lead to it, is woven into both game story and world story, and so on.

As someone playing pacifist route of Shrift... no. Not even close. In the pacifist route, it's very clear that the demons are trying to survive. Ones like the Barghest and Lampas are, for the most part, basically animals subsisting on the one form of sustenance available to them only because they're mostly driven by instinct. When we get to "higher thinking" demons like Mother Rabbit and the Neko Sisters, the rationalizations get more grey. MR is driven by a maternal instinct and only behaved as she did due to

I didnt finished shrift. I drop it after defeating...immune to damage bitch, if she dressed...remember something about dark tunnels and whatever monsters there...alraune?...somewhere here I dropped it. Like, one tenth of a game if not less?
Because, again, game does not makes a good job to make demons looks good. Yes, I befriended several demon species, but all such scenes looked...forced, I think is a adequate word. Like "I saved you life, now be my friend, or...*gun clang.ogg*".
I dimly remembering something that after befriending one specific demon, all other demons of same species would do something like "ohhhh you a friend of my species, so I dont kill you, just suck you dry to unconsciousness" or gift some items to me, but its....

I compared it with undertale before, and that game made much better job on making you feel bad for killing.
Like at the beginning of undertale game says to you "dont kill monsters!!!! they not trying to kill you!!!!!" and on question "why they attack tho?" it answers "because thats how they talk actually, they just stupid to realise that you percepts this as a threat" in the end of a game, after you already committed mass genocide and war crimes. And than everything clicks, like why there are unique animations for enemies after 'defeating' them with a friendly conversation. Or why almost all monsters have such....strange attacks, that involves hearts, flowers and so on.

And in shrift you sister constantly calling you "DONT KILL THEM!! DONT KILL THEM!! THEY NOT AS BAD AS YOU THINK!!" and ten second later game just throw at you man eating _demon species_ that "cant be bargained with, it cant be reasoned with, it doesnt feel pity, or remorse, or fear, and absolutely will not stop, ever...until you are dead". It creates too strong cognitive dissonance to continue pacifist route. Besides "gun is fun" and "might makes light *gun shot* and I feel MIGHTY!!!", so...mass genocide it is than.

Um, not particularly in either case. In Shrift, it's more about survival for the demons with lesser intelligence, while the higher-functioning ones are more empathetic and are usually victims of circumstance. In MGQ, Alice makes it clear that monsters only rape because Ilias fear-mongered and threatened to nuke everything to oblivion as a result, which forced the hand of the first monster lord. A lot of monsters are content to seduce Luka into a life of marital bliss, while others do attempt predation because of course they do. I think maybe a handful do the "milking slave" thing, and only because again, it's free food. Hell, there are I think two side quests where saving Human settlements is resolved because the persons who initiated the conflict were mistreated. I empathized more with Queen Ant than I did the people who died when she threw her rebellion. She even has a "suicide by cop" moment when you beat her, as if she feels legitimate remorse for the victims of her rebellion and wants to atone for it.

That not what Im refereed to.
In MGQ violence is "ultima ratio regum", final way to resolve conflict after all other options was exhausted. Every time before a battle Luka says "hey, be good, or I will not stand aside all of it if you continue" and opponent, usually, says "how about no, huh?" *battle music starts playing*.
Yes, most monster girls are "seduce Luka into a life of marital bliss" and some "attempt predation", but Luka stands not on "dont do things like that" but on "do it in a way to make both parties left happy afterward".

And in shrift its "poor things, they not that bad" while 'poor thing' eats up scientists corpse.

 

[MadFoole]

Sorry to interrupt all the canon debates now that we have an update again, but as someone who's been an avid tryer of the various mods, I was wondering if anyone else noticed some mods breaking with the update?

Specifically so far, Bamboo Garden had caused a visual glitch with some scenes (a portion of the screen would tile images of the panda queen), and Waifupocalypse now seems to crash if you enter the imp den (I suspect from trying to read the entrails that it's looking for and failing to find the old imp images). I turned those two mods off for now, and that resolved both issues.

 

[Cross Zero]

Lmao I can feel the rage as you smacked your clown gloves on the keyboard. Four days later and not only have you still not let it go, but this is the response you came up with when all other arguments were beaten. Even your first point was decimated when the dev admitted that the long wait wasn't due to coding the labyrinth. How does it feel knowing you were pushed out of your mother with a big red circle nose and size 20 feet?

I actually forgot about this argument and just read it again. I admit I got the wrong idea in the discord and I wrote that about the labyrinth before Thresh cleared it up, I stand by what I said about your lack of basic navigational and memorialization skills. It's really damn easy to avoid them, even in the dark levels simply because you shouldn't even be around that long!

Spoiler: Essay ahead...

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Dr. PuPu]

Great things come to those who wait. Already off to a great start with the updated map art!

 

[MeaBorowski]

I don't care if Kotone's hypnosis is a way to make sure for the main character not to betray her - no sane human being would willingly agree to someone basically holding a remote control to themselves, ESPECIALLY considering Kotone's background. Even if she does regret what she did and feels bad about it, her hypnosis powers should be honestly somehow removed or restrained, simularly to a lifetime imprisonment in real life. Because, you know, mass murderers don't get a second chance cause they "feel bad about the things they did", they get locked up for life, and the same thing should go for Kotone really, at least in "restraining/removing her powers" sort of way.

 

[darker999]

wow, sissy fighting over monster girl. nice let me get my pop-"coin".