VN Ren'Py Mythos: Book One [v5.0.1 Hotfix] [Nine of Swords]

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Nine of Swords

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I think I may have said this before in this topic (because I think you've talked about this before), but you'd probably be better off shifting main characters, because then you can basically start the next story with a mostly clean slate, carrying over a few event flags that can be referenced (who's dead/alive, who's dating who, etc).

Continuing the story with the same main character can be fun (and potentially more satisfying for the player), but it can result in you having to juggle all the multiple variables, to the point where branching narrative becomes too hard to deal with, and it starts interfering in whatever story you're trying to tell. If nothing else, it would likely dramatically increase the dev time on the next game.



Weeeeelllll...

The biggest problem with the NTR discussion (especially on this site) is that different people mean different things when they use the word.

I think, when a lot players (if not most) say they dislike NTR, what they really mean is they feel like the player should be allowed to control who characters hook up with and who they don't. When a dev says "It's not NTR because the main character is totally okay with the idea of open relationships and/or a polyamorous orgy", the player is effectively saying it IS NTR because -I- didn't make that decision. -I'M- not okay with the idea of my love interest being with other people, therefore THE CHARACTER I'M PLAYING AS shouldn't be, either.

This only becomes more of an issue when the main character of a game/story is being presented as an avatar of the player/reader. If the main character is YOU in some way, you expect/require the choices that character makes to be more in-line with how you personally see the world. If the main character automatically makes major decisions you radically object to, you're going to feel disconnected from the character, the story, and the world.

In some ways, it's an extension of sexual preference in general. If I'm a straight man interested in playing as a straight male character, I'm probably going to be annoyed/upset if the character I'm playing as decides to start up a gay relationship without being given a choice to nix it (and conversely, when I play games as a female protag, with the intention of playing through as a lesbian, I'm going to be annoyed/put off if she just starts having sex with dudes). You'll see people complain about this in game discussions of games with female protagonists - one of the first questions a lot of people will ask is "Can I play this as a lesbian, or are scenes with guys unavoidable?" What those people are actually asking is "Will I be able to fully control who my character does and doesn't date?"

Sharing or NTR is generally okay if the player is given an option in-game to object/stop it from happening. In those cases, the player may enjoy the scenes even if the character is upset (if anything, that's the whole appeal of NTR for a lot of people). This is where those "Is NTR avoidable?" or "If we turn off NTR does it still happen, or do we just not see it?" questions stem from. Those are players who want control over their character and the world. They want to know that, if they are pursuing their precious waifu, she'll be loyal to them, and won't start chasing after other people. It's also why some people are bothered in harem games where your harem members do things without you (or without your express permission). It's a loss of control as as player.

(And even in real life, two partners being open to polyamory/sharing/open relationships doesn't mean they'd be open to literally anyone their partner might want to date. There would almost certainly be cases where your partner chooses to be with someone you dislike so strongly it leads to arguments, or outright ends your relationship over it. Generally speaking, there ARE going to be conversations along the lines of "Yeah, I'm cool with you dating so-and-so" or "No, I'm not really comfortable with you dating so-and-so" - and those are the conversations the player feels like they're not being allowed to have if the game/dev just says "No, the main character is totally into hiding in the closet watching while their love interest gets boned by three other guys.")

Ultimately, it's up to a dev what they want to do with their own story/characters/relationships/etc, but players WILL complain if they feel like you're taking power away from them (which is the main difference between presenting a story as a story, versus making it into a game with player narrative choice).


Personally, I'd tend to avoid ever making love interests from one game love interests in another game, to the point where a player can potentially wind up feeling like they're cucking themselves. Let's be honest, some people were annoyed when the Mass Effect and Dragon Age games implied love interests didn't stay together after their initial romance ("What do you mean Leliana is off helping the Inquisition and the Warden is somewhere else? What do you mean Isabella is off being a pirate and Hawke isn't with her? WHY AREN'T THEY TOGETHER?!" "Why is Kaiden/Ashley being such a jerk to me in DA2? Well, screw you, I'mma go cheat on you with Tali/Garrus/etc now!"), and even more annoyed when it seemed like a love interest might cheat (people were pissed when Zevran, a notorious sex maniac, could potentially be unfaithful to the Warden with Isabella and Hawke in DA2, to the point where BioWare patched the scene to prevent it for a romanced Zevran).

If you want to include the possibility that a potential love interest from Book One might be open to flirting with a new Book Two protagonist, you might want to use event flags to prevent that from happening if that character was romanced in Book One. ie, if the Book Two main character has the option to flirt, the response can either be a positive reaction if the character is available, or a "Nah, sorry, not interested, I'm already seeing someone" if they were romanced (which can be a little squee moment for players happy that it implies their OTP is still together). Conversely, give the player even more power - when that option to flirt comes up, have a choice that reminds them that this NPC is already dating the Book One protagonist - and then give them the option to decide whether or not the two have broken up in the meantime (thus freeing the love interest for a new relationship), if the two are still together but in an open relationship where the new protagonist could also date them (thus freeing the love interest for a new relationship), or if the original protagonist wouldn't be okay with it (closing off the romance route for that NPC).

(For a humorous way to handle this, have flags for Book One gender and romance results, and when you get to that scene, have the original Book One protagonist pop in either in person or as a sort of fourth-wall breaking floating head, who points out "Hey, that's MY girlfriend!", and then have a choice that's like "...and I'm not cool with this. Go find your own love interest!", "...and I'm cool with sharing. Go you!", or "Woot! Orgy!")

The tl;dr for all this is basically that players love choice in games that promise them choice, and they want to feel like their choices matter. So any narrative decision that takes choice away from them (like telling them their main player character is okay with a relationship even if they aren't) is likely to annoy them, while giving them more power over the narrative (by letting them choose whether or not their character is okay with it) is likely to make them happy (or at least shut up most of the potential complainers).
I think that may be part of my own personal disconnect with the "the MC is me" situation that most players have. I get that a lot of people think of the MC as an avatar of themselves within the game world, but due to some... obvious biological limitations, I can't do that myself with the vast majority of adult games out there. I've basically viewed the games as "I make choices for what this guy may wanna do, but I'm just reading his story from the outside."

Though this post here has given me some good insight... I could have a new set of MCs for the next Book, and have any surviving girls become a whole new set of love interests (ie - whoever survives out of Becki (With An I), Sylvia, Rin, Rami, Monica, etc). Kylie and her Mystery Squad could be in the game, just not fuckable.

... though I could do some meta achievement where if you do the harem route in both games the result is a massive orgy... :unsure: That'd suck if both MCs were dudes, though.
 

Rinbael

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Though this post here has given me some good insight... I could have a new set of MCs for the next Book, and have any surviving girls become a whole new set of love interests (ie - whoever survives out of Becki (With An I), Sylvia, Rin, Rami, Monica, etc). Kylie and her Mystery Squad could be in the game, just not fuckable.
That sounds like it would be a good way to have characters from previous games appear but also not piss people off and it would be easier to manage variable wise.

I don't know if you played The Author but the dev of that game had the MC of that game appear in his sequel game Unbroken and all you did when it happens is pick who the MC romanced from a menu and they appeared as a cameo for those scenes. That game only had solo pairings and one throuple pairing so it would be a bit easier to manage compared to this game which has multiple possible combinations so it would be a lot more work.
 
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Nine of Swords

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That sounds like it would be a good way to have characters from previous games appear but also not piss people off and it would be easier to manage variable wise.

I don't know if you played The Author but the dev of that game had the MC of that game appear in his sequel game Unbroken and all you did when it happens is pick who the MC romanced from a menu and they appeared as a cameo for those scenes. That game only had solo pairings and one throuple pairing so it would be a bit easier to manage compared to this game which has multiple possible combinations so it would be a lot more work.
I've heard a lot of good things about SWTADev's work; I just need to find time to actually play other people's games! :ROFLMAO: Balancing game development, my work life, and my personal life is a challenge!
 

Rinbael

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I've heard a lot of good things about SWTADev's work; I just need to find time to actually play other people's games! :ROFLMAO: Balancing game development, my work life, and my personal life is a challenge!
That's understandable :ROFLMAO:. There the most well written games on this site in my opinion and he is planning to do something similar to what you mentioned you want to do.

He has three games planned where they are all linked and has characters from each game appear in other games for example one of the main LI's aunt appears in his first game and her and her daughters are going to be important character's in his third game and her daughters are going to be main LI's in that game as well.
 

ClockworkGnome

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Oh, just thought of something else on the lines of how players dislike not having the power of choice:

Sometimes, you'll notice in threads for harem-style games, people complaining because they can't reject a particular love interest. In a game that is basically about "having ALL of the women!", players will be annoyed if they feel forced to accept a love interest they hate for whatever reason (repugnant personality, really unattractive, too many tattoos, not enough tattoos, etc) into their harem. Even worse when they're forced to have scenes with that love interest in spite of not wanting to. As crazy as this can seem ("Why are you playing a harem game if you don't want ALL the women?"), it's another symptom of players liking having the power to choose, and have their choices matter, rather than having things chosen for them.

It's why I tend to feel like modular harem games (like something like Mythic Manor), where you can pick and choose which love interests to pursue and which to ignore are better than ones where you're forced to make very specific choices in-game to "recruit" every possible harem member, because the game is an all-or-nothing scenario. The latter makes the player feel more powerless. Even games with a "central harem" and peripheral love interests (usually the incest games, with the family as the harem and non-family as separate romances) give the player control over who to choose and who to reject. Which can be very satisfying for a player if they feel like things aren't being forced onto them against their will.


I think that may be part of my own personal disconnect with the "the MC is me" situation that most players have. I get that a lot of people think of the MC as an avatar of themselves within the game world, but due to some... obvious biological limitations, I can't do that myself with the vast majority of adult games out there.
I think it's more of a mindset than just biology/being able to directly relate. I mean, I know I personally prefer to play as female characters in most games, in spite of being a cis male in real life (with no real inclinations towards feeling like a woman trapped in a man's body or anything). I'm a giant bear of a man, yet for about 25 years now I invariably play as a female whenever the game lets me. But I generally still play characters as close to "me" as possible (which is why most of my female PCs wind up as lesbians, unless a really awesome male love interest is available).

I don't think "people who play as themselves" or "people who play as the person they think the MC is supposed to be" or even "people who create a full biography of their PC in their head and play as them" are necessarily "right" or "wrong" ways to play. I'd say all of those viewpoints are valid! But I do think it can help any game dev to understand that different people play in different ways (sort of like how most game devs should be aware of the Bartle Test and how it relates to how different players see different games), because it helps contextualize where complains are coming from. And why a solution that placates one type of player might not work for another type.

But that's definitely part of what makes the discussion about player choice complicated. People who don't project themselves onto their character won't necessarily understand where the people who do are coming from, and vice-versa. Which is why NTR discussions can become so heated or vitriolic - when one person is saying "These are just characters and this is the textbook dictionary definition of what NTR means so shut up" while someone else is saying "I want power to shape the narrative and I don't want my love interest to cheat on me", it creates cognitive dissonance. They're not really having the same argument.

But I tend to think "more player choice" is always a good solution, unless it creates a riduculous amount of work behind the scenes for the dev. The simplest fix for a lot of issues (unwanted hook-ups, NTR, etc) is just "let the players decide whether or not this thing happens." If you can do that, most of the rational and justified complaints will be satisfied, at which point you just have to deal with the crazies and assholes who will complain no matter what you do.

And yes, I realize that can feel extremely frustrating for a dev/writer who has a very specific story they want to tell, and that story requires the protagonist character to do something that players might not want them to do. But that's the compromise that comes from making a game versus telling a story. I've seen at least a few devs on this forum get annoyed when it was really clear they had a preferred love interest in the game that they clearly wanted players to wind up with, but players were like "Man, I hate this character, I would never hook up with them in a million years! I just want to romance [insert minor NPC character name here]. I wish the dev would focus on them more!" And then dev's reaction was along the lines of "HOW DARE YOU NOT LOVE MY WAIFU!"

If you're going to allow choice at all, don't be surprised when players want to make choices.


... though I could do some meta achievement where if you do the harem route in both games the result is a massive orgy... :unsure: That'd suck if both MCs were dudes, though.
Have the Book One protagonist show up as a minor romance option. Then, if the Book Two protagonist hooks up with them, you earn an achievement that's called "It's Basically Masturbation!". Or go slightly more subtle, and call it something like "Stop or You'll Go Blind!" :p
 

ClockworkGnome

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Main save has Tara as my solo girl. She's awesome and I want one run where it's just Kylie and her. They coud have been long term lovers but life kept them apart until fate brought them back. It's super romantic and, let's be honest, she's hot and Ava likes.
My main "canon" route at the moment is sort of wobbling between the idea of Tara as solo love interest with a few potential flirts/flings on the side, or Tara + Mara. Kind of depends on future interactions with Mara.

Though I'm holding out hope for a magical ending where somehow Lisa comes back to life and we get back together (always a possible option in magical fantasy when a character dies by magical means). I've basically been playing "I am totally not over her and never really got over the breakup" in every choice... which then becomes even more of a kick in the gut when you realize that she still loved you the whole time and deliberately broke up with you to keep you safe. I'm at the point now where I will tear down Heaven and Earth to murder the Hell out of whoever is responsible. With a touch of subconscious death wish ("It's okay if I die, maybe I'll get to see Lisa again on the other side"), so long as she can take down the bastards with her (with Tara potentially being the anchor that kind of teaches her to get over the loss and start trying to live again).

But I'm a hopeless romantic. And I tend to like stories with lots of emotional suffering so long as it ends with a happily ever after.
 
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Avaron1974

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My main "canon" route at the moment is sort of wobbling between the idea of Tara as solo love interest with a few potential flirts/flings on the side, or Tara + Mara. Kind of depends on future interactions with Mara.

Though I'm holding out hope for a magical ending where somehow Lisa comes back to life and we get back together (always a possible option in magical fantasy when a character dies by magical means). I've basically been playing "I am totally not over her and never really got over the breakup" in every choice... which then becomes even more of a kick in the gut when you realize that she still loved you the whole time and deliberately broke up with you to keep you safe. I'm at the point now where I will tear down Heaven and Earth to murder the Hell out of whoever is responsible. With a touch of subconscious death wish ("It's okay if I die, maybe I'll get to see Lisa again on the other side"), so long as she can take down the bastards with her (with Tara potentially being the anchor that kind of teaches her to get over the loss and start trying to live again).

But I'm a hopeless romantic. And I tend to like stories with lots of emotional suffering so long as it ends with a happily ever after.
I think Nine already nixed the theory that Lisa could be brought back.

I had that earlier because her soul had been removed, stands to reason we could put it back but if I remember rightly I was told she was dead and not coming back.

My dreams and my heart were broken that day and Nine just laughed .... evil isn't a strong enough word.
 

Nine of Swords

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I think Nine already nixed the theory that Lisa could be brought back.

I had that earlier because her soul had been removed, stands to reason we could put it back but if I remember rightly I was told she was dead and not coming back.

My dreams and my heart were broken that day and Nine just laughed .... evil isn't a strong enough word.
I don't remember my exact phrasing... but I will say that when I answer speculative questions (other than for me to just say "spoilers!"), I choose my specific words very carefully.
 

HogRocket

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I think that may be part of my own personal disconnect with the "the MC is me" situation that most players have. I get that a lot of people think of the MC as an avatar of themselves within the game world, but due to some... obvious biological limitations, I can't do that myself with the vast majority of adult games out there. I've basically viewed the games as "I make choices for what this guy may wanna do, but I'm just reading his story from the outside."

Though this post here has given me some good insight... I could have a new set of MCs for the next Book, and have any surviving girls become a whole new set of love interests (ie - whoever survives out of Becki (With An I), Sylvia, Rin, Rami, Monica, etc). Kylie and her Mystery Squad could be in the game, just not fuckable.

... though I could do some meta achievement where if you do the harem route in both games the result is a massive orgy... :unsure: That'd suck if both MCs were dudes, though.
I play a lot of these games as "I'm the protagonist" but quite a few as "manipulative observer", especially if the MC way different than me or is expected to be kind of a jerk to people or abusive. When I used to play World of Warcraft (yes I'm a nerd) I used to play female characters some just because I got tired of looking at the male character models :ROFLMAO: .

If your first game had not had a male option, it might not have done quite as well initially. Your next chapter/game will have all of us (at least those of us who count :LOL: ) playing it no matter who is the protagonist. I actually have two save paths on "Mythos", one Ky and one Kylie because - why not? I get to check out slightly different art and twice the scenes :love:.

You do you.
 

ClockworkGnome

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When I used to play World of Warcraft I used to play female characters some just because I got tired of looking at the male character models.
In online multiplayer games, the best reason to play as a female character is because you will ABSOLUTELY get tons of male players being nice to you, gifting you free stuff, or asking to party up with you. I've exploited that in multiple games.

My experience in GTA Online was radically different when playing as a female character than it was as a male. People are so much less likely to randomly murder you. :p

The downside, of course, is that you're also a lot more likely to get sexually harassed because a lot of players suck. :(


Your next chapter/game will have all of us playing it no matter who is the protagonist.
Nah, I'm going to boycott it unless we get to play as as female werewolf.
 

Dylan741

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Since I'll probably be playing as a female next chapter, I thought I'd try out a hairstyle to see how I'll look. Good? Or should I try a shorter style. I think blonde makes me look a little pale, don't you?

View attachment 1717384
More than the blonde hairs I think you used a too pale make up foundation, but I could be wrong you should try to part the hairs more to have a better look at the ensemble... :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

HogRocket

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In online multiplayer games, the best reason to play as a female character is because you will ABSOLUTELY get tons of male players being nice to you, gifting you free stuff, or asking to party up with you. I've exploited that in multiple games.

My experience in GTA Online was radically different when playing as a female character than it was as a male. People are so much less likely to randomly murder you. :p

The downside, of course, is that you're also a lot more likely to get sexually harassed because a lot of players suck. :(



Nah, I'm going to boycott it unless we get to play as as female werewolf.
I usually ran solo, or with friends/family so didn't get a lot of that. I did get a lot more guild invites in WoW though. :unsure::ROFLMAO:

I am, of course, ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY with you on the player character for the next chapter!!:love::ROFLMAO::love::ROFLMAO:


More than the blonde hairs I think you used a too pale make up foundation, but I could be wrong you should try to part the hairs more to have a better look at the ensemble... :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
:unsure: You may be right, I had on a completely different outfit, as well as the hair thing. I think your right - a more "off the face" style is more suitable for me. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:


I wish I could take the time to figure out Daz. I would have SOOOooo much fun with it! :devilish::devilish::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

Dylan741

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I usually ran solo, or with friends/family so didn't get a lot of that. I did get a lot more guild invites in WoW though. :unsure::ROFLMAO:

I am, of course, ABSO-FREAKING-LUTELY with you on the player character for the next chapter!!:love::ROFLMAO::love::ROFLMAO:




:unsure: You may be right, I had on a completely different outfit, as well as the hair thing. I think your right - a more "off the face" style is more suitable for me. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Yeah I read that's the new tendency in fashion, it's a little bit too "skinned" for me, but I admit that it grows on you in the long run... :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:
 

LorgarAurelian

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In online multiplayer games, the best reason to play as a female character is because you will ABSOLUTELY get tons of male players being nice to you, gifting you free stuff, or asking to party up with you. I've exploited that in multiple games.

My experience in GTA Online was radically different when playing as a female character than it was as a male. People are so much less likely to randomly murder you. :p

The downside, of course, is that you're also a lot more likely to get sexually harassed because a lot of players suck. :(
Also mostly play female characters in MMO's, my reasoning being that if I have to stare at an ass for x amount of hours, it can atleast be a plesant looking ass:LOL:.

Nah, I'm going to boycott it unless we get to play as as female werewolf.
So, one of Tara's relatives as the next MC:LOL:.
 
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ClockworkGnome

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I wish I could take the time to figure out Daz. I would have SOOOooo much fun with it!
Every once in a while I think about trying to learn how to use Daz or Honey Select for renders and then figure out how to use Ren'Py to work on my own visual novel (not necessarily a sex/romance one, just in general), but I always assume they're too hard to learn when you're starting from scratch with no real graphics or coding knowledge, so I just sort of forget about it.
 

allove

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Jun 19, 2021
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If its like... something you hate doing, writing a dude MC in your games, I ain't going to make stupid demands for the option of a dude MC. Your game your art your decision. Just sayin', I really enjoy being able to play a dude in Mythos and would enjoy it in the future if you could stand it. Kyle is like, not even a giga chad with a horse cock! how many dude MCs can say that? Its like, unique.
 

Nine of Swords

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Every once in a while I think about trying to learn how to use Daz or Honey Select for renders and then figure out how to use Ren'Py to work on my own visual novel (not necessarily a sex/romance one, just in general), but I always assume they're too hard to learn when you're starting from scratch with no real graphics or coding knowledge, so I just sort of forget about it.
Hey, trust me, it can't be that hard -- after all, I do it and I was born stupid!

If its like... something you hate doing, writing a dude MC in your games, I ain't going to make stupid demands for the option of a dude MC. Your game your art your decision. Just sayin', I really enjoy being able to play a dude in Mythos and would enjoy it in the future if you could stand it. Kyle is like, not even a giga chad with a horse cock! how many dude MCs can say that? Its like, unique.
I wouldn't say I hate it. I just don't think I write male characters very well, and I have even less faith in visually designing them! :ROFLMAO: If I could have managed to create a world entirely populated by females, I probably would have... but I want to keep it somewhat grounded in reality. Other than the vampires and wizards and faeries and such.

On the topic of Werewolves!

Yes, there's a good bit of joking with the whole "werewolves don't exist!" shenanigans. However, I do have a kind of personal underlying thing on why werewolves are made into a sort of in-game meme (people on my have heard me talk about this at length). I'll address this in depth in this week's Friday Update, but for now suffice it to say that I've had some very bad experiences with werewolf-lovers that have soured me on the whole idea of them.

Not saying that I haven't met any nice werewolf fans, but it's kind of like how if someone you really hate is really into something, you start to kinda hate that thing by association.

But more explanation of that will be on Friday, when I can actually gather my thoughts to better articulate it.
 
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