VN Ren'Py Nothing Is Forever [v0.7.3] [MrSilverLust]

[1337Bob]

If the mc is dominant, he’ll have trouble to be with Deb, but Jen will love him. On the other hand, if the MC is submissive Deb will like him, but that causes a problem with his relationship with Jen where both of them like to be the submissive one in the bedroom. How to deal with that? Will they end up in a similar situation to Deb and Carl (where, in that case, neither likes to be submissive)?

In this chapter, the MC and Jen spend some time discussing the situation and come to one of the following arrangements, dependently on the player’s choice:

• - agree they aren’t compatible kinkwise and break up;
• - try to find a dome that would dominate them both in a threesome so they can both be submissive in the bedroom;
• - try to find a man to dominate Jen;

That’s up to the player to decide, and it only happens when the mc is submissive. Of course, if the MC likes to take charge and be more dominant in the bedroom with Jen, they don’t face that problem and any of those choices is not presented to them. They are both happy together.

In my opinion, this really doesn't seem to match Jen's character, the way she's been currently written. Of all the love interests so far, Jen seems to be the most 'romantic', with the possible exception of Bri who we don't know that much about yet. Like Jen's arc is basically being an insecure, relatively inexperienced woman who quickly becomes infatuated (love?) with MC. I feel like Jen's character would actually be undermined if by the creation of the alternate paths. If MC and Jen are just going to bring someone else into their 'forbidden love' relationship, it kind of spoils the whole point of needing to keep it secret, and also undermines the character motivations. They're willing to risk their reputations to exploring a relationship where they're not sexually compatible? Doesn't make much sense to me.

It only makes sense to me for Jen and MC to 'break-up' if they were sexually incompatible rather than bring in someone else to basically fulfil the sexually dominant role MC can't provide. Jen seems like the kind of girl who wants a single partner, basically.

I will admit I am somewhat biased as I personally don't like that sharing etc content. But normally I don't comment on it, live and let live, people like what they like. However, here I feel it legitimately doesn't make sense with Jen.

 

[NakkiMuki]

So, about Kim:

Perhaps that scene could have been better written/handled. It needed to achieve many things: tie up some loose ends from the previous chapters and set up her several paths. While doing all of that I was a bit afraid of going over the top. Some people are saying that they like her, some that they love to hate her, others just that they don’t like her at all. It’s definitely polarizing. It definitely could have been better.

I’ll just say she isn’t meant to be an “antagonist” or “villain”. Like any other girl, she’s written to facilitate some kinks. Which in her case is that she’s kind of a psychological/physical sadist.

For femdom players, she is meant to be the woman more interested in the less “wholesome” kinks like humiliation or pain.

For mandom players with no morals that like to be the asshole, they might be interested in her for the kink of fucking their friend’s girlfriend behind his back.

For the honorable guys, they will be able to at least help Pete get out of that toxic relationship. I’m not sure if there will be sexual scenes in this path. I think there is potential for some scene where the mc makes her taste her own venom and “puts her in her place”. That could feel cathartic to some players that “love to hate her”. Maybe that will happen if I can find a way that doesn’t feel forced or out of character (for MC or Kim), but, it’s too far in the future for me to know if I can pull that off. It’s just something on my mind.

But, for anyone else that just hates her and isn’t interested in any of these kinks, they can just reject her and she won’t be a major part in the plot. And the kinks mentioned above will also be ignored. I just needed an “evil” character to facilitate those kinks.

In a sense, I don’t mind that some players hate her if they aren’t into fucking their friend’s girlfriend (her maledom path) or into being submissive towards a sadist who wants to humiliate them (her femdom path). Because she wasn’t written to attract these players. There already exist other girls that have the kind of personality that’s attractive to them.

I’ll mind if players that are into these kind of kinks also don’t like her. Because then, it means I did something wrong.

The first impression is usually the one you should trust. I hate Kim and yes I edited that path closed. Unfortunately, her face still has to endure. I make all possible negative choices with her. She doesn't get anything positive from me. It even pissed me off a little when this slut came along for the trip.

 

[MrSilverLust]

Makes sense that the points completely changes the convo, but it feels so different for every other character like with Emma or Deb where you just click a choice if you want to be on their dom or sub path.

That kind of check happens in more places, although not to go to paths.

But, for example, Jen's path will check if the mc has been professional with her or not thanks to a bunch of previous choices. If he has, she will not make an advance on him and they end up in the "always professional path."

For Lea, there's a check to see if the Mc has enough honourable points. If he doesn't, she will not trust him enough to go down the exhibitionist path.

And even for the other girls, technically, if you play without cheats, you shouldn't be able to go for both dominant and submissive paths in the same playthrough, because you wouldn't have enough points for all the skills. That's another use of the points/skill system, to kind of give a sense of personality continuity.

In sum, there are all sorts of checks in place to be able to be in the girls paths, you just didn't notice them because you passed them all. That the was the first one you noticed.

In my opinion, this really doesn't seem to match Jen's character, the way she's been currently written.

It only makes sense to me for Jen and MC to 'break-up' if they were sexually incompatible rather than bring in someone else to basically fulfil the sexually dominant role MC can't provide. Jen seems like the kind of girl who wants a single partner, basically.

Are you saying that after playing the path where both and the mc are submissive, or just after reading my comment?

In this chapter there are 2 scenes with walls of text to justify those choices, if the player wants to go that route. Or their break up if the player doesn't. After playing that part, you still have the same opinion?

 

[gregers]

The first impression is usually the one you should trust. I hate Kim and yes I edited that path closed. Unfortunately, her face still has to endure. I make all possible negative choices with her. She doesn't get anything positive from me. It even pissed me off a little when this slut came along for the trip.

I wouldn't be opposed to playing the MC as a manwhore doing someone's girlfriend behind their back, but more than that I didn't want to cede any ground to Kim, and agreeing to her "mutually beneficial" arrangement would feel too much like giving her a win. My MC didn't tell her to fuck off because he's particularly honourable, but because she's a cunt.

 

[desmosome]

Got a question for MSL. Many of the relationships thus far are built entirely on the concept of clear consent and healthy kink exploration. Other than inherently fucked up fetishes like cheating, it certainly seems like the plan is to keep everything above board. Is this a correct assessment, or would there be possibilities for the MC to be a bit more predatory/coercive later on with some dub-con flavors? Maybe by feeding his green schizo ghost or something lol.

 

[hysepReC]

I wouldn't be opposed to playing the MC as a manwhore doing someone's girlfriend behind their back, but more than that I didn't want to cede any ground to Kim, and agreeing to her "mutually beneficial" arrangement would feel too much like giving her a win. My MC didn't tell her to fuck off because he's particularly honourable, but because she's a cunt.

Same here. I love netori but my MC won't be touching that nasty bitch.

 

[1337Bob]

Are you saying that after playing the path where both and the mc are submissive, or just after reading my comment?

In this chapter there are 2 scenes with walls of text to justify those choices, if the player wants to go that route. Or their break up if the player doesn't. After playing that part, you still have the same opinion?

Yes. Jen doesn't seem like the type at all to decouple sex and romance from each other (at least to the point where she's going to be dominated by other men), and I think the writing of those scenes doesn't convince me otherwise.

You can write virtually any character in to any situation (or path in this context) with enough effort, that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. Like, you could write walls of text to justify having a route where Deb becomes a submissive. But even if you 'justified' it sufficiently in your writing, it still would be a bad idea because it undermines what I think is a core part of Deb's character.

 

[gregers]

Got a question for MSL. Many of the relationships thus far are built entirely on the concept of clear consent and healthy kink exploration. Other than inherently fucked up fetishes like cheating, it certainly seems like the plan is to keep everything above board. Is this a correct assessment, or would there be possibilities for the MC to be a bit more predatory/coercive later on with some dub-con flavors? Maybe by feeding his green schizo ghost or something lol.

From what the dev has said previously, they want to stay within consensual waters. No rapey or otherwise non-con stuff.

 

[desmosome]

From what the dev has said previously, they want to stay within consensual waters. No rapey or otherwise non-con stuff.

I agree that straight up non-con should be off the tables. Was wondering how far we can go past the totally healthy and consensual kinks though.

Just thinking out loud. Let's take Emma as an example. The love/hate they got going on in the red path is really fun. It's certainly leaning towards the love at this point. The kinks like misogyny are explicitly framed as roleplay or at least some healthy version of "letting loose." That's a pretty wholesome take on a pretty volatile relationship set up. On the other hand, if we lean a bit more into dub-con or coercion, MC could have been a real misogynist with her and used the fact that she liked the rough sex in a slightly more aggressive way to undermine her feminism.

I'm just asking as a degenerate if there are plans for some unhealthy progressions of the relationships (while still keeping things believable and grounded).

 

[realjitter]

found a small bug

Spoiler

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[Axel F]

Yes. Jen doesn't seem like the type at all to decouple sex and romance from each other (at least to the point where she's going to be dominated by other men), and I think the writing of those scenes doesn't convince me otherwise.

Well, you can't know someone's kinks based on their personality or appearance, you know the saying, lady in the streets...
But somehow i feel the same way about this, the glove just doesn't fit.
Besides, how do you know you're sexualy incompatible with someone, by having sex and not liking it, or by talking about it for 3 hours on 3 different occasions?

 

[MrSilverLust]

Yes. Jen doesn't seem like the type at all to decouple sex and romance from each other (at least to the point where she's going to be dominated by other men), and I think the writing of those scenes doesn't convince me otherwise.

I just asked because I wanted to know if you read the “whole argument” or just the short version in that post.

I think it was a cool topic to explore in a game: what happens when two submissive people want to be in a relationship? But it’s true that I railroaded their relationship that way to introduce those kinks. And I’ll concede that it might not have been 100% percent consistent with Jen’s character, and we could come up with better alternatives. But I wanted to introduce those kinks and there’s a limit amount of paths I can do, so it all ended up that way. And you can read some comments expressing their enthusiasm to see how both characters will submit to another woman, and how that’s a perspective that isn’t often shown.

I’ll say, though, that a couple can be romantic and in love and still allow for each other to sleep with other people. Perhaps that’s not your idea of romance, but it doesn’t mean that a romantic woman can’t be into that, as long as she knows that her partner enjoys it too.

Besides, how do you know you're sexualy incompatible with someone, by having sex and not liking it, or by talking about it for 3 hours on 3 different occasions?

I know it was too fast, I was also worried about that. It’s the same problem as always. There’s a limit amount of time and only so many paths I can make. I wanted to make the dom path, and the dual sub path where they submit to a woman, or she submits to man. Yet another path where they remain vanilla or other suggestion you can think off, would take too much effort and time. It’s probably unrealistic that someone would break up after 3h talking instead of trying the relationship out for a while, but I’m only one person working on this.

Other than inherently fucked up fetishes like cheating, it certainly seems like the plan is to keep everything above board. Is this a correct assessment, or would there be possibilities for the MC to be a bit more predatory/coercive later on with some dub-con flavors?

Yes, you are corrected. The idea is to keep it always consensual. I don’t even want to go there in the reverse situation (there have been lots of people suggesting femdom paths where the MC would be blackmailed by Kim) where, technically, the player would have given consent to see the scenes, but not the MC.

found a small bug

Thanks.

 

[camube]

Wow I just finished checking Kim's femdom path, it's written really well and really interesting!

 

[08Hanbo]

The first version I released got some "bad press" because the win-32 executable kept triggering the anti-virus and giving false positives. So I just removed it from the build since then. But if you download the attached file, and extract it to the game folder where the other executables are, it should work.

Thank you. I will try.

 

[LAKueiJin]

It doesn't, it's really just 3 or 4 lines of dialogue that chance. And, of course, you get the sweetness skill.

Since the path 0.4.1 you can also pick that option on Emma's scene in the gallery screen, if you want to see the difference.

Too late - already did a skip-athon on my original Emma playthrough when I first reached that choice on my current combined sub-to-kim/deb/jen playthrough, only so as to be able to pick the first option and be rewarded with those juicy 3 extra lines of dialogue! Didn't mind though - the humiliation scene with full-on-misandrist Emma was extremely hot and I already can't wait for more of her dominating MC! (the nail polish scene was also very hot, especially if MC is also subservient to Kim and she tells everyone about your boner - in retrospect thinking how Emma can find it hot to publicly embarass/humiliate MC before multiple women, and Kim thinks Emma's 'alright', the only one of the girls she even 'complimented' at all, it'd be cool if on a really submissive and a bit masochistic playthrough MC could push them towards becoming closer friends, and for the 2 of them to eventually work together in finding creative ways to humiliate/make MC suffer... Ok, I'll tell my perverted subby brain to shut up before all the honourable/manly Kim-hating players on the thread get an aneurysm!)

More seriously though it was a great update in general.

Spoiler: A short rant about what I liked in this update from a storytelling perspective

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Other than that, I also liked how naturally MC's relationships with several girls seem to evolve throughout the holiday (on the submissive path at least), and I don't think I have any substantive criticisms of chapter 4 - it was better than 3 in my opinion, so keep going like this and maybe by chapter 10 NiF will have the character depth and artistic value of a Dostoyevski novel!

Thanks once again for the update and all the best to you dev!

 

[08Hanbo]

MrSilverLust I just finished the first chapter. The content of the game is great and interesting, and the music is also very suitable. So I decided to go to your patreon to support you.
Thank you for providing the Win32 version. By the way, do any girls in the game have pubic hair?

 

[1337Bob]

I’ll say, though, that a couple can be romantic and in love and still allow for each other to sleep with other people. Perhaps that’s not your idea of romance, but it doesn’t mean that a romantic woman can’t be into that, as long as she knows that her partner enjoys it too.

I know some people believe that. But I don't believe Jen believes that. It just doesn't fit with the character as written in the earlier chapters.

I would also add that "being dominated by other men" is probably the more egregious of the two. I don't think sharing a domme is great either but at least somewhat more believable insofar that at least they're still acting together.

 

[sithlordo66]

one of the best written fun to play games just wish there was some way to dom deb lol, but seriously fantastic game with characters that are actually 3 dimensional. great job dev

 

[fishbrain]

Just a couple questions, sorry not reading to avoid spoilers. I've played my primary paths, but none of them give me the option to choose falling for Deb at the end. Then with Olivia she appears as an option I think every time but when I'm at the lake with her and it says I need to have had a crush on her that choice is never available. So my question is how important are the choices we can make at the end of the chapter?? I know I was told previously that I don't have to be a sub to get Deb.

Also when the icon comes up for paths open, is there an explanation anywhere of what paths we're opening? That would be really helpful.

 

[sidsan]

any femdom route for girls other than Emma deb Kim and Jen MrSilverLust