VN Ren'Py Nothing Is Forever [v0.7.3] [MrSilverLust]

[GreenGobbo]

I kinda like discussing game design, so, if you want to elaborate a bit more on this, I wouldn’t mind brainstorming a bit. If anything else, it might help me or others stumbling upon this to have to design something better.

I can give it a shot, but keep in mind I'm just a player/reader. Don't know much about coming up with better systems, just how I personally react to game systems I'm presented with.

Also keep in mind, most of that stuff I mentioned about point systems was before anyone told me how you included a bypass system for yours.
Now that I don't have to worry about trying to rpg stat grind my responces to get scene _____ any more, in my future playthroughs I'm just gonna do that instead so I can pick any answer I like any time I want and still see everything I want to see. Hooray for cheating!
TYVM for that by the way. I hate seeing stat systems in a story driven vn anyway.

Spoiler: This shit is looooong

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

In summary. "Ehhhhhh."

Still think the game is great over all.
Story telling is the best part.
Still don't like your point system, but I can understand your intentions with it.
And the cheat function is a thing that exists so....


Also I'm sure there's probably like a million typos in my responces. Sorry if that leads to any confusion. Big hands, tiny screen. Too much wall o'text for me to bother going back and proofreading it all.

 

[XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXAX]

Jup, my main problem with the game is that it's just too good
So, I know i made my choices and therefore get the kinks which suit me better. But I still want more content and therefore also sometimes cheat to experience everything
But for me, that's just something like a daydream mode, before returning to the real game and made choices

 

[osanaiko]

Out of curiosity, what are the two sexual variations for Kim? Haven't really played around with her routes yet.

Umm, not big variations in the scenes you get yet, but there are dialogue differences between "MC is a submissive worm controlled by Kim", and "MC is a manly snake willing to cooperate with Kim". Whether this goes further into actually different scenes/routes in the future remains unknown...

 

[lnppo]

Umm, not big variations in the scenes you get yet, but there are dialogue differences between "MC is a submissive worm controlled by Kim", and "MC is a manly snake willing to cooperate with Kim". Whether this goes further into actually different scenes/routes in the future remains unknown...

Hopefully we will get that Kim romance route that everyone is hoping for...

 

[MrSilverLust]

Also, it would have been nice if there was an alternative route for Lea like with some of the other girls. I got kicked off her path in my playthrough because i didn't have enough honorable points.

That date at the park with Lea in chapter 2 illustrates a bit the bad part of the system. In the 1st release of chapter 2, that check wasn’t even there. The scene just progressed to the choice were the MC could say he was interested in exploring her exhibitionism kink (if the player has the Exhibitionist skill), or say that he wasn’t interested in it. This was pretty bad because there was a dissonance between the story and the gameplay: basically, Lea was saying she wanted to try exhibitionism with the MC, the player wanted to say they wanted to do it, but the only option the gameplay allowed (If the player couldn’t afford the Exhibitionism skill) was for the MC to say he was not interested in doing that… even if both the player and Lea wanted to.

So, I changed it to the way it is now: there is a check to see if the player has gotten at least 20 honorable points (the ones required to buy the skill), and, if not, Lea gets cold feet and is not interested anymore in following through. To put things into perspective, by that point the player could have around 110 honorable points, but only needs 20. A distribution of 20 hon – 90 cun is enough for Lea to be interested in the MC. Moreover, the player knows since the beginning of the chapter what is her kink – exhibitionism – and can even check the “skills hint” screen to see that the exhibitionism skill will be required soon. Knowing all that, if the player still chose not to get just 20 hon points out of 110 possible, I don’t think he should be annoyed for being rejected by Lea. Storywise it makes sense because Lea, at that point, is very shy and insecure and needs to thrust the MC to open up. If all she sees is him making “cunning choices”, she won’t trust him. And, let’s be honest, only 20 out of 110 points? If anything, her standards are a bit too low and that number should be higher.

I like the skill/perk system for the most part but the honorable tree does not make much sense to me. What does sex in public, bondage or roleplaying have to do with being honorable?

That’s another issue. It’s hard to fit everything is just 4 boxes. In theory, those kinks required the girl to trust the MC, or that MC is loyal, likes discipline and is, uhh, brave (to try new kinks?). Yeah, in a vacuum it's a bit forced, but the skills don’t happen in a vaccum, they happen in a context. And I try that the context calls for an honorable/trustworthy/loyal person to use those skills. For example, it’s not that the MC needs to be loyal to explore exhibitionism with a random girl; It’s more that Lea needs to trust him before exploring that kink with him.

But, yeah, it's not perfect and some times it can feel too arbitrary.

 

[JollyGeorgieM]

Since we're discussing the skill tree, does anyone else feel like the "Asshole" and "Teasing" traits should be swapped? "Asshole" is a Green (Cunning) skill and "Teasing" is a Red (Manly) skill currently. "Asshole" is described as "You just do what you want and don't give a fuck." There's nothing particularly cunning about that, is there? And "Teasing" is described as "A form of foreplay. Don't give in into her wishes just yet. Keep teasing until none of you can't take it anymore." [Ah shit, 2 more typos lol - "Don't give in to her wishes" and "Keep teasing until they can't take it anymore" or "Keep teasing until none of you can take it anymore"]. Anyway, teasing seems like a Cunning game to play, doesn't it? Since both of these skills cost the same amount of points in their respective fields and neither unlock linked higher skills, it seems like a pretty quick, easy swap. Does that make any sense to anyone else or is it just me?


Also, since I stumbled on those typos, here's a handful more:

Spoiler: Some Straggler Typos

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

And lastly, an incredibly minor plot hole:

Spoiler: More Like A Plot Hiccup, Really

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Alright, I promise I'm done with the typos lmao. Keep up the good work MrSilverLust !!

 

[gregers]

If all she sees is him making “cunning choices”, she won’t trust him.

The obvious counterpoint would be: How many of those choices does Lea see the MC make, and wouldn't a highly cunning MC make sure to make their visible choices appear honourable?

That said, I admire the skill tree system of this game both as a novelty and as a different way to conceptualize the progression and gradual shaping of the player character.

 

[MrSilverLust]

Also, since I stumbled on those typos, here's a handful more:

Thank you again, I don’t think that part has ever been proofread before.

Since we're discussing the skill tree, does anyone else feel like the "Asshole" and "Teasing" traits should be swapped?

It’s difficult to come with a name that reflects well what each skill tree should be. For example, the so called “cunning choices” could be seen as manipulative, but also just as unconventional, morally grey, or that do not necessarily agree with common wisdom/morals/rules. It also can include personality traits like charismatic, intelligent, and seductive. It’s difficult to find a term for all of these traits.

Likewise, the “manly choices” can be about being dominant, incisive, to take charge/lead, being powerful, but also being impulsive or misogynistic.

Cunning already has the “Silver Tongue” branch where the MC can use his wits and charisma for seduction. Manly got “Teasing” which is more about taking charge of the foreplay action. Likewise, Manly already has the “Misogyny” skill as a representation of those kind of choices from that tree. “Asshole” is more general, as in just being inconsiderate/manipulative about other people’s feelings, and just caring about yourself.

We could certainly find other ways to organize skills, but I’m not sure it would improve anything: it would just be a different interpretation of what each label means. And that’s the biggest trouble here, it’s hard to convey with a single word (and a descriptive sentence) what I mean by each skill. But, context wise, it gets a bit better. For example, the “Asshole” skill was used to get a handjob from Kim in front of her oblivious boyfriend, which is also friend of the MC. You could argue that a “manly” guy would put bros before hoes. So, it makes more sense to use a “Cunning skill” for that scene. A skill that represents the personality trait of putting oneself before others, and disregarding other’s feelings. I called that “Asshole”. Granted, perhaps the description for “Asshole” does not necessarily represent that, so I can try to improve on that.

The obvious counterpoint would be: How many of those choices does Lea see the MC make

A lot of those are in front of Lea. I did that on purpose because I knew that would be relevant for her path. But it doesn’t matter too much. The story only shows fragments of the MC life, it’s implied that lots of things happen “off screen”. Lea would have more opportunities to figure out the “core” of MC’s personality and if she trusts him or not.

wouldn't a highly cunning MC make sure to make their visible choices appear honourable?

Using that argument, you could say that any path/girl should be available for a highly cunning (sociopath?) MC because he would be able to make his choices appear any way he likes.

Ironically, as a player, you can pretty much achieve that same effect: just pick the choices that score you more points for the girl you’re going after, regardless if you really believe in what you're saying or not. That’s what a truly highly cunning (sociopath?) MC would do

 

[GreenGobbo]

Hopefully we will get that Kim romance route that everyone is hoping for...

IMO anyhow.
YMMW of course.

 

[osanaiko]

Ironically, as a player, you can pretty much achieve that same effect: just pick the choices that score you more points for the girl you’re going after, regardless if you really believe in what you're saying or not. That’s what a truly highly cunning (sociopath?) MC would do

And here I am, camping on a web forum dedicated to pirating pornographic computer games, being unironically impressed at one of the best examples of genuine irony I've ever seen.

The cup of my love for MrSilverLust overfloweth.

 

[chocolatemoli]

Awesome game! I thought the story is not complete fantasy right? Some are sounds like things happened around developer.

 

[MrSilverLust]

Awesome game! I thought the story is not complete fantasy right? Some are sounds like things happened around developer.

"The story, all names, characters, and incidents portrayed in this game are fictitious. No identification with actual persons (living or deceased), places, buildings, and products is intended or should be inferred."

I always wanted to make this disclaimer. That day has finally come
Everything is made-up people, especially the psychology part.

 

[JollyGeorgieM]

The story, all names, characters, and incidents portrayed in this game are fictitious

Yeah, tbh names like "Bri", "Jen", or "Lea" always did sound totally fantasy-like to me. Who would name their kids something like that? Just too alien. Still, I'm (barely) willing to suspend my disbelief and pretend there's such a thing as an "Olivia" or "Emma" out there... just for this game though. But boy, what an imagination to come up with fictitious names like that!

We could certainly find other ways to organize skills, but I’m not sure it would improve anything: it would just be a different interpretation of what each label means. And that’s the biggest trouble here, it’s hard to convey with a single word (and a descriptive sentence) what I mean by each skill. But, context wise, it gets a bit better. For example, the “Asshole” skill was used to get a handjob from Kim in front of her oblivious boyfriend, which is also friend of the MC. You could argue that a “manly” guy would put bros before hoes. So, it makes more sense to use a “Cunning skill” for that scene. A skill that represents the personality trait of putting oneself before others, and disregarding other’s feelings. I called that “Asshole”. Granted, perhaps the description for “Asshole” does not necessarily represent that, so I can try to improve on that.

I think I see what you're angling for... Hmm. I agree the description of the skills are a tad misleading in this case. But maybe the bigger issue is simply the word "Asshole". From the context, perhaps "Two-Faced", "Deceitful", "Backstabbing" (hehe, this could also apply to the anal skill), or something along those lines? Maybe the best word for it is "Selfish". Let's ask a reliable source for the perfect word:

Spoiler: Who Needs a Thesaurus When You Have This Guy?

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

...and there you have it.

Tbh, I'm still not 100% sold on Teasing being a Manly skill (or at the very least being more Manly than Cunning, since teasing is a mind game [even when physical contact is involved, it's all about breaking resistance and overwhelming reason with lust]). The context for the Teasing skill so far is playing with Lea under the table in front of Olivia, which seemed more Green than Red to me (especially since she starts it). And "Asshole" (or whatever we call it) feels like it groups well with Bull, Manhandle, and Dominant, which is why I got a Red vibe from it. But I'm guessing the goal is to spread the netori skills between Red and Green, which is why "Asshole" is where it is? Not to mention you said it was intended to describe inconsiderate/manipulative actions. And then that leaves "Teasing" in the lurch, I suppose.

Haha, game design's tough, huh?

Well, in the end the skills all have to fit somewhere. This isn't a big deal overall. Fair enough! I appreciate the explanation nonetheless!

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

I finally played 0.41.
It was okay so far. I am honest. I hoped that the Dominant path leaning more into BDSM by now.
Maybe it is just me, but I have the feeling that the DOM path is underdeveloped.
Does anybody feel the same way.
I was a Patreon and dropped out after 0.3.
For two reasons, Kim scene which is getting solved now, and I felt bored. And while I like Lea and Jen. They are Enjoyable, but it's not spicy enough for me.

What I mean is there are many good skills in the trees, but we don't go in that direction. (No Bondage, No D/s, No impact play, No Orgasm control)
The refinement, creativity and excitement of a BDSM play is missing completely. I had two time rough sex and one rough BJ. What you see in every second to third porn clip and considered by the most as very Vanilla.
We haven't even see plush handcuffs.
Just my feelings. Does anybody feel the same?

Sorry that maybe a little bit rude on my side MrSilverLust. But I am sincerely feel that the maledom path is quite underdeveloped. It doesn't have to be harsh maledom, but at least kinky stuff in it.

What I liked about 0.41 is the Dialogs with Kim.
I think being able to read between the lines that she knows she went too far with her cringe worthy appearance in 0.3.
Which could now even open a part of redemption for her. At least I perceived the scenes with her in such a way.
I admit I could be totally wrong.

 

[MrSilverLust]

Sorry that maybe a little bit rude on my side @MrSilverLust. But I am sincerely feel that the maledom path is quite underdeveloped.

You weren't harsh at all, I'm here to hear all kinds of feedback.
So, there are a couple things here.

It was okay so far. I am honest. I hoped that the Dominant path leaning more into BDSM by now.

One is pacing: I tend to agree with you, perhaps the maledom paths should already have more kinky content by now. More players have raised that point before.I've heard it all though: some say it needs more romance, some more kink, some more rough/harsh, and some even ask for "rapey" things that I won't do. But what you ask for will come, the question is if the players looking for BDSM won't be bored by then and already stopped playing.

What I mean is there are many good skills in the trees, but we don't go in that direction. (No Bondage, No D/s, No impact play, No Orgasm control)

The other question is not using the so called "good skills in the trees". The skills used for lewd scenes so far are as follow:


As you can see there's a relatively good distribution of skills used per tree. You may have wanted other skills instead of those, but that goes into the first point: they will still be used in the future, the question is if the pace of the story is good or too slow.

The game is designed around a story and a skill system that progresses from vanilla to hardcore. We're starting to get into the more kinky stuff, which was never meant to happen early in the game. You might question this decision, but that was the plan.

What I liked about 0.41 is the Dialogs with Kim.

I find it interesting that for you Kim went from the worst part of one chapter to the best part of the next chapter. Funnily enough, this kind of pattern seems to happen a lot, as in: a chapter ends, people "complain" about something in that chapter, I change nothing and continue with the story as intended, after a new chapter is released no one else complains about the same stuff and even compliment how those paths are progressing.

I guess this comes with the territory of releasing a game in chapters with months of delay between them: people judge things on how they think they'll progress as, and not how they actually will. Which is fair and it doesn't make their points invalid, but it also gives me some confidence that the plan I have for most paths is good and people just need to see how it unfolds.

But we'll see how it goes. The only thing I can say is that the next chapters will have kinkier scenes than the previous ones, while also having enough vanilla scenes for those that look for that kind of content. Wheter it'll be enough to make both of these kind of players happy, I don't know.

One of the concerns I had way back is the skill system would be mostly for show, obviously the only content you'd have in the game is what the dev puts in, but there's just no way any dev can put in all those options for every LI to go whatever direction the skills would take that in

I never said anywhere that every LI would get all those options. In fact, the game is designed around each LI have their own kinks that you've to find out and then use the right skill for her. You'll be able to use all skills in game but, obviously, not all skills with a single LI.

It looks like a good amount of work to me where it probably could have just been collapsed to the 4 categories, with a simple total point check for whatever branch. Even that I don't really think is necessarily worth the effort because there's really no point in locking anything, the player can just choose whatever option and they'd probably replay or reload for other options, especially if it's easy to see they're there.

VNs tend to have a certain formula and that's because those formulae work well in both storytelling and developmental resource allocation.

I'm not following this point. The game is designed like any other VN. In fact, if you don't like the skill system, you can go to skills>options>cheat:get all skills (maybe even turn blind more on if you don't want to have the choices labelled) and play the game as any other VN, without the skills playing any role in the gameplay.

I explained a bit better here why I think having the skills on leads to a better experience, but you know how you like to play games better than I do. If you'd rather bypass the system altogether, I provide that option and I hope you still enjoy the game.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

Thank you for answering.
I have to apologize, I was on Vacation and haven't seen that you already had discussed this issue on your poll summery two weeks ago.
I want to elaborate my standpoint a bit better.
But first to clarify one thing.

I find it interesting that for you Kim went from the worst part of one chapter to the best part of the next chapter.

I never said she is the best part. She is in my opinion the weakest character in the game. I liked that she is now written as a human being. After her mustache twirling appearance in 0.3 it was a pleasant surprise.

The Best part for me is Lea. Every scene.

But what you ask for will come, the question is if the players looking for BDSM won't be bored by then and already stopped playing.

You have answered this question already. You have 46 patreons less then a month ago. That exactly the amount of players who had even out the submissive vs Dominant part.
The Problem is that Patreon is like a self-fulfilling prophecy bubble. You will never hear anything bad.

Another example. In this Forum you see people in other threads and some have in signatures from your game.
You see Deb and sometimes I have seen Bri. I have never seen a submissive LI as a signature.

I've heard it all though: some say it needs more romance, some more kink, some more rough/harsh, and some even ask for "rapey" things that I won't do.

That's not even a question. The content is given by you. Romantic and BDSM/kink play. Your game is a romance, it is a given. How harsh something is a question of perspective.
It does not matter. BDSM is an erotic play which thrills the participants. And the harshness is irrelevant to achieve the goal.

The other question is not using the so called "good skills in the trees". The skills used for lewd scenes so far are as follow:
View attachment 1982783

As you can see there's a relatively good distribution of skills used per tree. You may have wanted other skills instead of those, but that goes into the first point: they will still be used in the future, the question is if the pace of the story is good or too slow.

The game is designed around a story and a skill system that progresses from vanilla to hardcore. We're starting to get into the more kinky stuff, which was never meant to happen early in the game. You might question this decision, but that was the plan.

The skill system. Okay, I knew that we aren't ready for the hardcore territory. That's not what I meant.

A thought experiments. If the skill system wouldn't be there. Would we know that there is a dominant path in the game?

Yes with Lea. But the other scenes. The MC only has the initiative with Lea, else he is very passive for my taste.
If you show the latest Jen scene as an example to 10 couples, 9,7 would say it is normal sex.

One is pacing: I tend to agree with you, perhaps the maledom paths should already have more kinky content by now.

Again it is aslow burn, and it is romantic and follow the rules of SSCF or rack. Which nice.

The question I have. Why need the dominant part to be soooo slow. The submissive part is miles ahead.

Jennifer: We established she is a sub and we established that she is willing to play.
Let me paint you a picture. (A scene with Jen and MC)
MC sitting on the bed: "Jen kneel before me!"
The mood is good. He then pulls out a collar from under the bed.
Jen: "Oh, I am your Dog now."
MC: "No, for now you're my property. A precious little thing I own." If it is going too much, you say stop at any time and we stop. Okay?"
Jen: "Yes"
MC: "Good girl. Now no talking, only if I ask you directly."
He pots the collar around his neck. And pulling her in for a deep kiss.
Then he pulls out a leash and order her to stay on all fore.
He leads her in another room, where he already had peppered a bowl with milk.
MC:"Eat. Only use your tongue."
After she has finished. He orders her to kneel again. And suck his dick. Allowing her to play with herself.
With a happy end for both. Then the Play is ending with aftercare and a lot of cuddling.

It just an example and something I have to make up right now, and I am in no way a writer.
I would say this scene could have happened. It isn't a harsh play, but it delivers erotic it could have written very romantic and has the thrill of a play.

It is a good thing that the game will have kinkier stuff in it from now, I hope it isn't too late. Because your game has a good foundation.

You asked for feedback why this game isn't as recommended by maledom players.
And the hard truth in my Opinion is. It is there in theory, but you have to search it with a big magnify glass.

 

[Frosty2000]

You have answered this question already. You have 46 patreons less then a month ago. That exactly the amount of players who had even out the submissive vs Dominant part.
The Problem is that Patreon is like a self-fulfilling prophecy bubble. You will never hear anything bad.

Another example. In this Forum you see people in other threads and some have in signatures from your game.
You see Deb and sometimes I have seen Bri. I have never seen a submissive LI as a signature.

My guess is that this number is mainly related to people just pledging for the month where the update comes out, and we know next update will be some months from now.

Concerning the maledom "problem". One reason is surely there are way more more maledom games out there than femdom, so it is harder to be noticed. My impression is also that most maledom players are looking for quick fixes and are generally not that much into slow burn games.

 

[Deleted member 3208170]

One reason is surely there are way more more maledom games out there than femdom

Again this narrative. I don't get where this comes from. It is untrue.

My impression is also that most maledom players are looking for quick fixes and are generally not that much into slow burn games.

I have a completely different impression.

My guess is that this number is mainly related to people just pledging for the month where the update comes out, and we know next update will be some months from now.

Possible. But until now, he had grown. Update or not. The question remains. Why is this game not as recommended by maledom player as for femdom players?

And only giving feedback.

 

[Canto Forte]

Answer 1 - game starts with MC down in the gutter and babes are walking all over him.
Answer 2 - game first kink is a bitch hate fkking MC then bolting, bam-wham-bye bye ham.
Answer 3 - game makes MC be servient to a number of babes thinking there are no other ways.
Answer 4 - game makes MC be the third wheel of a serial hook up maniac.
Answer 5 - MC perceived problems are haunting him despite others doing the same deeds unphased.

The question remains.

Players need to really stick their necks out for the better part of this game eating up all sorts of
unsavory rants, whinings, depressive talks and judegemental offensive convos with his perceived friends
that seem to compete in portraying him as a looser next to his female peers because he is a male.

 

[MrSilverLust]

The question remains. Why is this game not as recommended by maledom player as for femdom players?

We can only speculate. I still think it's just that there are no places for the game to be recommended.

Femdom players have this thread where the game has been suggested and praised a few times. Story-first players have this thread where the same happens. Many of my patrons learned about the game on those threads, especially the femdom enthusiasts.

Now tell me where do maledom players gather to share their favourite games... because I just don't know.

The closest thing there is is this thread, but that's not about BDSM at all. It's about the male power trip fantasy of having an harem without any competition from other men. As you can imagine, my game, which is not a harem and has girls in relationships, is not very well seen there...

In fact, the game is being recommended to maledom fans and being well received. It's just that few people are interested in commenting in those threads and give or look for more recommendations.

Also, it's not like there aren't people praising Jen's scenes (recommended as best overall scene of the year). Or that the game is being poorly received, just look at the reviews. By talking about "hard truths" and patreon numbers you make it seem like the game is being poorly received when it's one of the most growing projects that started in the 2nd half of 2021 by an unknown dev. We're doing quite well.

The question I have. Why need the dominant part to be soooo slow. The submissive part is miles ahead.

I think this is just bias. The femdom paths have a cunnilingus, a footjob, and a legjob or spanking scene... they aren't necessary the epitome of hardcore scenes. In fact, the same thing you have said about the maledom content has been said about the femdom content as well.

It's never possible to please everyone and each player will want different kinks, pace, realism, etc.

If you show the latest Jen scene as an example to 10 couples, 9,7 would say it is normal sex.

So... do you really think that verbally humiliating a girl during sex is normal for 9,7 out of 10 couples? Or that it is realistic that a guy that has never done a maledom BDSM in his life gives a girl a collar and does a petplay scene the 2nd time he tries BDSM in his life? Or that Lea's scenes are more maledom than Jen's or Emma's?

We might just have quite a different perspective on this. I disagree on all of those points.

And only giving feedback

The feedback has been noted. I'm happy with the content so far and won't go back to change anything. Besides not thinking that's necessary at all, reworks/rewritings are a sure way to kill a project. The only way is forward. I'd suggest for you to come back after a couple of updates and see if the game is then kinky enough for you or if it's better to spend your time elsewhere.