- Thread starter MrSilverLust
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- Jul 14, 2022
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yes you can I honestly used the cheat in the game to unlock all skills
- Aug 3, 2021
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Thanks ename144, EndlessNights, osanaiko for your thoughts and insights. Really interesting discussion. All three of you have good points even though I'm closest to ename's point of view.
Also, ename, I got the same bug as you with Emma's profile.
I'll give a bit of my own thoughts here. Note that I still think NiF is an amazing game, there are very few games that come close to get to a point where these things become a problem.
MC is inconsistent
The choices of kinks we make doesn't reflect much on anything other than specific sex scenes. MC:s personality makes the most sense if we have rejected all of the women. I understand that this would likely take a lot of development time to properly fix. But I don't want to dismiss it because it detracts much from the game.
MC is an amorphous blob
He takes on whatever shape his partner wants. Mostly in sex scenes but also in other scenes. He becomes the perfect partner. He does everything perfectly the first time even though he has no actual experience beyond vanilla sex as far as I can tell. MC has also never has any opinions himself. What his partner wants, he wants.
Kinks always escalates
Most (all?) routes gets this weirdness that the sex will become more and more extreme. Although you sometimes can reject things escalating without completely abandoning the route it is not always the case. Combined with that the characters so seldom talk about what they actually want becomes problematic.
Deb submissive route
I'm going to talk about this a it because it exemplifies a lot of my problems with the game.
The first scene becomes very uncomfortable for me for several reasons.
Deb and MC never talks about what is acceptable, safe words or anything like that (in difference to Jen route btw). Both Deb and MC should know much better than this.
MC shows almost no reluctance or hesitation, but becomes the perfect sub almost immediately. From what I've read of D/s you don't go to actual sexual acts directly. First you train the sub to be obedient in various ways such as sub assuming different positions on command. Then and only then you start with introducing sexual acts.
But the main problem here is that the MC is just a prop on both bull and sub routes for Deb to vent her frustrations with Carl. There is no allowance for the feelings of the MC, he is just expected to do whatever Deb says and could easily be replaced with an emotionless husk. And then when it is over there is no aftercare, no asking how MC felt, instead they just kick him out. And the next time MC meets Deb several days later there is almost no comment about it other than option to say either that he thought it was great or that Deb learned a lesson. And if we continue the sub route MC is suddenly expected to call Deb "mistress", not in a sexual context but just randomly when they talk.
This all is handled much better on Jen's route where they actually talk about what turns Jen on. Although here as well, MC has no opinion for himself.
Then there is also the fact that I would like to help the couples/LI to either repair their relationships or find some non-MC partner that suits them. Too much revolves around the MC imo.
Also, ename, I got the same bug as you with Emma's profile.
I'll give a bit of my own thoughts here. Note that I still think NiF is an amazing game, there are very few games that come close to get to a point where these things become a problem.
MC is inconsistent
The choices of kinks we make doesn't reflect much on anything other than specific sex scenes. MC:s personality makes the most sense if we have rejected all of the women. I understand that this would likely take a lot of development time to properly fix. But I don't want to dismiss it because it detracts much from the game.
MC is an amorphous blob
He takes on whatever shape his partner wants. Mostly in sex scenes but also in other scenes. He becomes the perfect partner. He does everything perfectly the first time even though he has no actual experience beyond vanilla sex as far as I can tell. MC has also never has any opinions himself. What his partner wants, he wants.
Kinks always escalates
Most (all?) routes gets this weirdness that the sex will become more and more extreme. Although you sometimes can reject things escalating without completely abandoning the route it is not always the case. Combined with that the characters so seldom talk about what they actually want becomes problematic.
Deb submissive route
I'm going to talk about this a it because it exemplifies a lot of my problems with the game.
The first scene becomes very uncomfortable for me for several reasons.
Deb and MC never talks about what is acceptable, safe words or anything like that (in difference to Jen route btw). Both Deb and MC should know much better than this.
MC shows almost no reluctance or hesitation, but becomes the perfect sub almost immediately. From what I've read of D/s you don't go to actual sexual acts directly. First you train the sub to be obedient in various ways such as sub assuming different positions on command. Then and only then you start with introducing sexual acts.
But the main problem here is that the MC is just a prop on both bull and sub routes for Deb to vent her frustrations with Carl. There is no allowance for the feelings of the MC, he is just expected to do whatever Deb says and could easily be replaced with an emotionless husk. And then when it is over there is no aftercare, no asking how MC felt, instead they just kick him out. And the next time MC meets Deb several days later there is almost no comment about it other than option to say either that he thought it was great or that Deb learned a lesson. And if we continue the sub route MC is suddenly expected to call Deb "mistress", not in a sexual context but just randomly when they talk.
This all is handled much better on Jen's route where they actually talk about what turns Jen on. Although here as well, MC has no opinion for himself.
Then there is also the fact that I would like to help the couples/LI to either repair their relationships or find some non-MC partner that suits them. Too much revolves around the MC imo.
- Sep 20, 2018
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It was my pleasure, there's a lot here worth discussing.
I want to agree because I like a good RPG system too, but I can't help but feel the system is illusory. If we just picked the actions we preferred directly from the usual interface without trying to tie it to a skill, what would really change? You'd no longer need to worry about points, but I'm skeptical that is a genuine hindrance very often. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I were really into all these different kinks, but it sure seems like I have plenty of points for my preferred playstyles and I haven't exactly worried about min/maxing anything.
The only thing the skill system really adds is that sense of ownership it gives you - the feeling that "the MC can do this action because of the decisions I made." And that's definitely an upside to the system. But that sense of ownership is also what causes problems each time the MC unilaterally takes actions you would never even think to take. That's why I call the system illusory: it fosters a sense of ownership over the MC that is very difficult to maintain in a game that needs to balance a strong central plot against so many girls and skills.
I suspect we would have been better off filtering the same content through simpler skills system that was closely tied in with a few aspects hardwired into the MC's psyche. We'd still get a sense of choice, but it would be more along the lines of breaking a tie rather than creating a personality from wholecloth. I think that would make occasions where the MC acts autonomously feel less jarring.
Perhaps; I'm definitely an outsider when it comes to most of these kinks. I'm certainly not going to begrudge anyone a chance to scratch an itch most games don't care about. I can only say that for me, the game did nothing to interest me in any of them, and in a couple of cases actively disinterested me. That can't be the ideal outcome, though it's possible my tastes are just that far removed from the 'average' player.
Eh, let's stick to the quick summary; I'm not sure if I'll be able to take extra time off next Christmas.Now, let's get to the nitty gritty. I wanted to do a point by point rebuttal, but I couldn't carve out two whole weeks to work on it. If anyone is left wanting more, I'll do a "real reply" next Christmas.
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What, do you think I'm a Republic serial villain? I played it three days ago.
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The reason I made the system goes a little beyond just giving a sense of ownership, or that feeling of "this option is only possible thanks to the decisions I've made". It was more to create a sense that the MC is a stable, consistent character. That is done by adding artificial boundaries to the kind of stories the player can tell within the game. As in, it feels particularly jarring playing games where you can just pick the "right answers" that gives you "+1 [insert LI's name gere] point", even if the right answer for 1 LI is being a teasing fuckboy, and for other LI is being an honest sweetheart. You can game the system and be a fuckboy with LI one, a sweetheart with LI 2 and get with both while the MC completely changes his personality when he is with one or the other.
The idea is that, in NiF, if the MC is a honest, sweet guy, he won't, for example, cheat on his girlfriend because that's not who he is. But, if, instead, he has made a lot of cynical remarks, has a grey view on morality, thinks he's very smart (all choices that typically give cunning points), he now *is* the kind of guy that would cheat on his girlfriend and think he's smart enough to get away with it. In gameplay terms, this translates to, by chapter 5, having to have got at least 150 cunning points to be able to cheat. Since each choice gives 1 or 5 points, these are "a lot" of cunning coices, making it more believable that the MC is the kind of guy that would do such thing. And it prevents situations like the MC being a virtuous guy all the time, honest, sweet, sincere, honorable, preachy to others, and then, out of the blue, starting cheating on his girlfriend.
And the same could be said for being dominant, or submissive, or romantic, or trustworthy, etc. That was the idea, anyway.
The other thing I was trying to achieve is that, by allowing the MC to kind of have a defined, consistent personality, the LI's will react differently dependently on who he is. They'll treat him differently, like him more or less, seeing him as a potential partner or not, etc, by who he is globally, and not by just what he says when he's sitting next to them.
For example, if, globally, he's a dominant man (has lots of manly points) he can't "trick" Deb into thinking he's submissive by picking the "right choices" when talking to her. The kind of relationship they can have, if they are sexually compatible or not, will be the holistic result of all the actions the MC does (basically, of who he is), and not the result of picking the right thing to say a few times when he's next to her. The idea is that his "personality" can define that he has more chemistry with some girls and less with others (the implementation might be a bit wonky, because this is a porn game and I wanted to give all kinds of players at least some content with each LI; but the amount and type of scenes, their interactions, or the kind of relationship that it originates changes greatly dependent on the MC's personality - Emma's interactions with a submissive or a dominant MC are quite differente, for example).
A few weeks ago, in the story-first thread, someone posted a
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. If you haven't yet, I'd suggest you to see that video because I think that's precisely the problem I was trying to solve. You can then try to look at the skill system through those lens and see if it is an improvement to the "usual" systems or not.At the same time, you can also try a playthrough where you: 1) get the cheat to get enough points to buy all skills; 2) buy all skills; 3) switch on "blind mode". This will, for the most part, bypass the skill system altogether, turning NiF in a more "traditional VN". You can then see if that even changes anything (for the better or for the worse).
I suspect that, due to your own preferences making you reject most girls/scenes, the good points of this "chemistry system" are lost on you. It's only possible for the MC to "have chemistry" with each LI if you're interested in them in the first place.
Now, this is not to say I did a good job here. I, myself, am still questioning if this was a step in the right direction or not. Also, the balance of the whole thing might be a bit off: I had to define at the beginning of the game the amount of skills, price of each one, names, etc, without knowing how many points there'll be available each chapter, or how many chapters there will be, and things like that. I had to go in blind and, having the information I have now, I'd probably have done things diferently. And, even if I changed things now, when the game is finished, I'd probably want to change some things again. It's one of the issues of releasing a game in chapters.
As for the rest of your review, I tend to agree on most things actually. And you haven't been the first to rise many of those points. I plan to, at some point, go back and try to fix some of those things (mostly with Kim, Lea, Deb, and Bri). But, right now, the plan *has* to be to go forward. Otherwise, I'm afraid of getting lost on the weeds of rewriting/reworking past chapters and not actually create new chapters/finish the game. Right now, the most important thing is to go forward.
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- Apr 25, 2020
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That's a good goal, but I don't think it works as is, either. Although I don't play with the restrictive point system, I think you can still act differently depending on which girl you interact with, be submissive to one and dominant to another. For what you want to happen, we should define our character's personality at the start of the game to prevent certain choices to be made.
And 100% agree with your last paragraph. Game would probably need an overall revision when story is finished or close to.
- Aug 3, 2021
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FWIW, I think you are going in the right direction overall. It is a testament to the good work you do that we can have criticisms at this level. Most game gets stuck on "it's a harem" or similar.
Yeah, that probably means the skills are just too cheap and goes into the whole "hard to balance from the start" thing. On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure if I *really* want to prevent that per se... it's more like a completely manly character (let's say 90% manly points) won't have enough points to be submissive, but some other person that's more ambivalent (like, picks 50/50 manly or submissive) can do it. And switches are a thing. Although, I'm not sure if you go into that split route you'll have enough points for the hardcore skills on both trees. And there's nothing stopping someone from being an hardcore switcher irl, so... yeah.
Another big issue is about tying behavior/personality to kinks. IRL, there's nothing stopping someone from being assertive and dominant in their work/daily life and submissive in the bedroom. There's a lot of nuance like that that's lost. I think the cheating part, for example, works better than the dominant/submissive part. On the other hand, women can be, for example, attracted to men that are confident/assertive/dominant in their daily life, so, as a "chemistry system" still makes sense: if the MC is that kind of man, a given LI will like him and their sex scene becomes available. In that sense, I think the system works. But then the problem lies in the writing, where, currently, the scenes are often presented as the LI being interested no matter what but the MC is the one rejecting them because it doesn't have enough points...
It's hard to fit the system with the writing, with the chemistry between people, with the kinks, with the unlocking scenes, with the need to not write 10 different stories dependent on how many points the MC has while still giving agency to the player, with... so, yeah, you get the idea. I think the system does some things well, but there's plenty of room for improvement, for sure.
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- Apr 25, 2020
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I played a game which adressed this and I like it very much: instead of a choice being grayed out, you can still make that choice but it checks the requirement afterward and then the LI rejects you or not
Yeah, that's such a simple idea, but would be a significant improvement.
I think while developing NiF I've learned a few new ideas, like that one, that will help me design a better overall system for an eventual future games.
- Sep 20, 2018
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I think that's a laudable goal, but I'm not sure how much support the skill system is really providing. I'm the one who earns the points, and I'm the one who picks the skills. If I *want* to be the kind of guy who would cheat on his girlfriend, I don't see why I need the game to back that choice mechanically. I just cheat when the opportunity arises and connect the dots in the MC's arc myself. Likewise if I think cheating on my girlfriend would be out of character, I need only choose not to cheat on her and the issue goes away.
The only time the skill system plays an active role is if, for example, the conversation options that I think should represent a disloyal boyfriend don't award Cunning points (or at least not enough cunning points). In that case the system does call attention to the disconnect and will give some feedback on how the game will be judging fidelity. That can be a useful thing to do, but I'm not sure if the benefits outweigh the downsides of forcing such a player to make 'wrong' decisions in order to progress.
I think that's an even more laudable goal; there's little that builds immersion quite as much as when a game reacts differently based on how we're playing it. But again, I don't think the skills are helping with that. As I noted before, Deb and Kim will initially fixate on the MC even if their point spread is the complete opposite of what I'd expect them to be looking. Moreover, because we're encouraged to buy skills only at the last minute, we definitely get the sense the MC is a relatively blank slate until the moment comes to explore a kink. In theory the system might prevent you from having to plan for certain contingencies (if it's physically impossible to have enough points to unlock Lea as a girlfriend AND also cheat on her, for example). But from what I've seen I don't think that's the case very often, and I imagine it will only be less true as we get ever more points.
Given all that, the skills feel like a middle man. If we use the MC's acceptance (or refusal) of an offer as the gating mechanic and trust the player to work why the MC makes his various choices in a satisfactory manner, we get the same results we have now, but without having to worry about earning the 'wrong' points. If a character has multiple possible paths (like Emma's submissive/dominant options), we also pick the style we prefer. From what I've seen, the game already tends to lock you into a sub-path once chosen, so this wouldn't be particularly different. We keep all the same content, we just order directly rather than having to redeem a coupon first.
It's true we'd lose the fun of earning points and unlocking new things, but I suspect that's primarily a placebo effect. Meanwhile, in return we'd no longer have to wonder why an MC with a bunch of pre-purchased skills can't use them yet, or why (for example) an MC with an overwhelming number of cunning points is so wracked with guilt over breaking the rules with Mel. That feels like it would be a net win from my point of view - but ultimately it's your game.
It's an interesting video. I definitely prefer the card tower approach to kindness coins (though I'd never though about it in those terms). But as I said above, I'd argue the card tower in this game are the choices we make with the various LIs, not the skills we use to unlock some of them.
I haven't played around with the cheat or blind modes yet. My gut reaction is that I wouldn't like that combo (the end result would be more like the faux-chemistry casino she mentioned), but if I have time maybe I'll give them a try.
It's distinctly possible the benefits of the system are lost on me; I'm more than a little eccentric. That said, I think chemistry can definitely transcend my interest in a given LI. Emma has fantastic chemistry with the MC, IMHO, even though it seems all but certain a relationship with her wouldn't be along my preferred lines. And I thought the MC's initial chemistry with Lea was downright unpleasant even though I'm very interested in her.
Unless you gate the LI entirely behind a stat/kink/choice/something check (which I don't think could ever be practical), the interactions between her and the MC have to start somewhere. Some amount of disappointment is probably inevitable whenever subsequent developments don't match our initial expectations. I feel like layering the skills and kinks over that tilts the odds a little more against us, but as you say that might just be me.
Yeah, play balance is always tough. But for what it's worth, I think you made the right call erring on the side of too many points. I've seen a lot of games hold the reins much too tight, which can give the system a restrictive, almost formulaic feel that saps all the allure out of it. If nothing else, your skill tree (and all the zany point modifiers that spring up at odd times) maximize the placebo effect.
I agree completely. Constantly looking over your shoulder is just asking to break something when you run into a large, unseen object.
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idk about you guys but the game is perfect and i hope the Dev doesn't listen to anyone and continue doing the work he wants to put because if you open the door for people ideas and what's right and what's wrong it will never be over so yeh do what u planned and don't change anything
- May 4, 2020
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Personally, I like the skill system a lot; helps to avoid content I do not care to see, if nothing else
- Apr 25, 2020
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It can have the same effect without a skill system, just don't pick the choice with the name of the kink
- May 4, 2020
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Well, skills do represent kinks... most other games provide little to no hints to what type to erotic content a particular choice would lead. This can get quite annoying considering my rather non-vanilla sexual preferences (I don't really care to see much of what an average "straight guy" likes to see and most devs do not usually bother to warn the player about erotic content generally considered "vanilla") .
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- Jun 8, 2020
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I just finished up my first play-through of the game, and I have to say this an absolute hidden gem of a game! I absolutely adore how there's an interesting story and how the characters feel alive and interesting. I think a major strength is how masterfully MrSilverLust handles the topics of fetish, play and relationships. And a welcome surprise was how the characters guy friends feel like, well, actual friends instead of just early game characters used solely to drive the plot forward. The h-scenes themselves are fantastic! The images feel grounded, and the scenes are well organized. The writing really adds a lot to these scenes, and I appreciate how most h-scenes in the game tie into the narrative of the overall story. Well done overall, I'm looking forward to supporting this project!
One critique I have would be how restrictive some of the paths can be. For example, my favorite LI is Kim, and while I love her submissive MC path it's annoying how that forces you to miss out on other types of sex such as the handjob scene or receiving oral. Just because I'm submissive, doesn't mean I only want to be edged or denied any gratification.
One critique I have would be how restrictive some of the paths can be. For example, my favorite LI is Kim, and while I love her submissive MC path it's annoying how that forces you to miss out on other types of sex such as the handjob scene or receiving oral. Just because I'm submissive, doesn't mean I only want to be edged or denied any gratification.
- Sep 20, 2018
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But the skills aren't really *warning* you, it's the callout when you're given the choice that does all the warning. If the game simply said something like "This scene contains Exhibitionist and Adventurous content" when it gave you the choice, it could remove the actual skill system and still let the player screen content. The only thing the skill system does (mechanically) is group certain kinks together. That sometimes makes sense but not always, and it's very subjective.
- Jun 15, 2022
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I liked the mechanics with perk system, similar to RPG games. This increases the replay value, makes it possible to run through the game several times and discover something new. The system in your game is more complex and branched than other novels with perk system, it's kind of unique, I haven't seen anything similar in AVN.Yeah, that probably means the skills are just too cheap and goes into the whole "hard to balance from the start" thing. On the other hand, I'm not entirely sure if I *really* want to prevent that per se... it's more like a completely manly character (let's say 90% manly points) won't have enough points to be submissive, but some other person that's more ambivalent (like, picks 50/50 manly or submissive) can do it. And switches are a thing. Although, I'm not sure if you go into that split route you'll have enough points for the hardcore skills on both trees. And there's nothing stopping someone from being an hardcore switcher irl, so... yeah.
Another big issue is about tying behavior/personality to kinks. IRL, there's nothing stopping someone from being assertive and dominant in their work/daily life and submissive in the bedroom. There's a lot of nuance like that that's lost. I think the cheating part, for example, works better than the dominant/submissive part. On the other hand, women can be, for example, attracted to men that are confident/assertive/dominant in their daily life, so, as a "chemistry system" still makes sense: if the MC is that kind of man, a given LI will like him and their sex scene becomes available. In that sense, I think the system works. But then the problem lies in the writing, where, currently, the scenes are often presented as the LI being interested no matter what but the MC is the one rejecting them because it doesn't have enough points...
It's hard to fit the system with the writing, with the chemistry between people, with the kinks, with the unlocking scenes, with the need to not write 10 different stories dependent on how many points the MC has while still giving agency to the player, with... so, yeah, you get the idea. I think the system does some things well, but there's plenty of room for improvement, for sure.
The system isn't perfect, but it doesn't have to be - video game mechanics work differently than in real life, and that's okay. In fact, if games were too similar to real life, then no one would play them.
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Where is it indicated that the game is abandoned?