- Thread starter MrSilverLust
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I didn't find it any skipped move. Can you please give me a bit more info on where the problem is so I can fix it? Thanks.Im still mildly butthurt that the second chess game looks like it skipped a move, the white rook gets back to the d column for free after Rxc1
Probably sometime in March.
She looks mean but kinda hottieI remember her saying that she wanted to have fake friendship with the mc to cover for her cheating but it feel like they become like real friends and more
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After this she just stand there shocked by the MC
- Sep 20, 2018
- 3,420
- 14,169
I've been pondering playing this game for a while now. The reviews looked promising and the skill tree was intriguing, though the emphasis on kinks made me nervous. But I'm trying to clean out my backlog of games I've been meaning to play, so I gave it a try. On the one hand, it was one of the more frustrating experiences I've had from an AVN. The MC's behavior when outside my direct control was all too often exasperating. The pacing of the game, both the overall arc and the beats within scenes, was erratic. And as I feared, the girls' scenes seemed to lead to one dead end after another because I wanted no part of what they were offering.
On the other hand, though, there's no way the game would get me this riled up if it wasn't doing something right. The concepts in the game are meaty. The cast (Kim aside) are great and their interactions are fantastic. The chess summaries warm my nerdy heart. And I certainly want to keep playing, if only to see what the game could be like if it ever manages to fire on all cylinders at once.
In other words, I'm still not entirely sure what to make of the experience. So I'll just provide some vaguely processed feedback on some of my personal high and low points and call it a day.
Wow, that took longer than I intended. Hope it was worth reading.
tl;dr This game is my Emma; I argue vociferously because I care. It seems like our kinks won't line up, but hope springs eternal.
On the other hand, though, there's no way the game would get me this riled up if it wasn't doing something right. The concepts in the game are meaty. The cast (Kim aside) are great and their interactions are fantastic. The chess summaries warm my nerdy heart. And I certainly want to keep playing, if only to see what the game could be like if it ever manages to fire on all cylinders at once.
In other words, I'm still not entirely sure what to make of the experience. So I'll just provide some vaguely processed feedback on some of my personal high and low points and call it a day.
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tl;dr This game is my Emma; I argue vociferously because I care. It seems like our kinks won't line up, but hope springs eternal.
- Jul 4, 2017
- 2,591
- 4,729
I hope this information will help you:
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- Jul 4, 2017
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ename144 :
Thank you for such an epic analysis and write up. I don't necessarily agree with all that your wrote, but you certainly raise some interesting things about areas where the timing of story beats and loss of immersion / agency show that the narrative could have some improvements. There are a lot of valuable insights, and I'm certain that MrSilverLust will read and consider.
Of course I'm not able to speak for MrSilverLust himself, but based on the work I have done on this project with him I believe that any parts which might only rate a "B" grade, rather than the "A+" that the rest of the game deserves, are largely due to conscious choices on where to spend his valuable development time.
The game is an enormous, gargantuan labor of love, and each time I receive another chapter to proofread I am astounded once more at the sheer volume of work that MrSL has put in. Just playtesting, proofreading and going back and forward with edit suggestions typically takes me 2-3 weeks for each chapter, working on it ~10 hours per week. The effort that MrSL must be putting in to both write the story, build the scripts (and not just simple dialogue - the game core programming is far more sophisticated than 95+% of Renpy titles on this site) AND do the poses, renders and postwork for 100s of images.... it's incredible.
For example, I agree with you that adding some interstitial "slice of life" moments around and between the story events would make it feel much more like a MC's Life Simulation, which would greatly improve immersion. Similarly, the off-screen development of some of the relationships between MC and the girls could potentially be shown, even as vignettes, and that would show the forward progress of the world in which MC's choices exist. But doing the work to add such window dressing would absolutely have taken away the chance to progress the main storylines as quickly as they have over the past 2 years - opportunity cost is a real thing, and MrSL is only one person, with real life responsibilities. I know for a fact that he does not work on this game full time - it began purely as a hobby, although it gladdens my heart to see that he is beginning to be rewarded as supporters gather.
If you have not already done so, I'd recommend looking back through this thread as there are mutliple posts by MrSL where he explains the trade-offs between offering flexibility of choices for MC and his relationships, and the need to keep to a core narrative route so that the combinatorial explosion of decisions trees does not choke his ability to write new scenes and remain consistent with previous choices. As much as any other VN enjoyer, I wish it was possible to cater to my specific preferences for MC's options and my preferred routes, predilections and relationship desires in every game I played. Sadly, it's rare when the exact target can be hit, and it becomes impossible when all the variety of different players are taken into account. Imagine having to write a game script that satisfied all comers, from the inveterate coprophagist netorare fans, though lesbian harem enthusiasts, to noble, handsome and generous romantic corruption afficionados, and others with even more unusual preferences.
Once more, thank you for the thought and effort that is obvious in your write up. I hope you continue to enjoy MrSL's brilliant game.
Thank you for such an epic analysis and write up. I don't necessarily agree with all that your wrote, but you certainly raise some interesting things about areas where the timing of story beats and loss of immersion / agency show that the narrative could have some improvements. There are a lot of valuable insights, and I'm certain that MrSilverLust will read and consider.
Of course I'm not able to speak for MrSilverLust himself, but based on the work I have done on this project with him I believe that any parts which might only rate a "B" grade, rather than the "A+" that the rest of the game deserves, are largely due to conscious choices on where to spend his valuable development time.
The game is an enormous, gargantuan labor of love, and each time I receive another chapter to proofread I am astounded once more at the sheer volume of work that MrSL has put in. Just playtesting, proofreading and going back and forward with edit suggestions typically takes me 2-3 weeks for each chapter, working on it ~10 hours per week. The effort that MrSL must be putting in to both write the story, build the scripts (and not just simple dialogue - the game core programming is far more sophisticated than 95+% of Renpy titles on this site) AND do the poses, renders and postwork for 100s of images.... it's incredible.
For example, I agree with you that adding some interstitial "slice of life" moments around and between the story events would make it feel much more like a MC's Life Simulation, which would greatly improve immersion. Similarly, the off-screen development of some of the relationships between MC and the girls could potentially be shown, even as vignettes, and that would show the forward progress of the world in which MC's choices exist. But doing the work to add such window dressing would absolutely have taken away the chance to progress the main storylines as quickly as they have over the past 2 years - opportunity cost is a real thing, and MrSL is only one person, with real life responsibilities. I know for a fact that he does not work on this game full time - it began purely as a hobby, although it gladdens my heart to see that he is beginning to be rewarded as supporters gather.
If you have not already done so, I'd recommend looking back through this thread as there are mutliple posts by MrSL where he explains the trade-offs between offering flexibility of choices for MC and his relationships, and the need to keep to a core narrative route so that the combinatorial explosion of decisions trees does not choke his ability to write new scenes and remain consistent with previous choices. As much as any other VN enjoyer, I wish it was possible to cater to my specific preferences for MC's options and my preferred routes, predilections and relationship desires in every game I played. Sadly, it's rare when the exact target can be hit, and it becomes impossible when all the variety of different players are taken into account. Imagine having to write a game script that satisfied all comers, from the inveterate coprophagist netorare fans, though lesbian harem enthusiasts, to noble, handsome and generous romantic corruption afficionados, and others with even more unusual preferences.
Once more, thank you for the thought and effort that is obvious in your write up. I hope you continue to enjoy MrSL's brilliant game.
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- Dec 5, 2021
- 690
- 1,115
I found this game very interesting, nice job with skills system, characters are super.
Dropped playing only cause... "my MC" Will never get laid even if I'll continue playing)
How can I be interested in women, who only only interested in satisfying their fetishes with or without my help... and it quickly becomes boring if you you reject all that crazy sl..nice women))
Dropped playing only cause... "my MC" Will never get laid even if I'll continue playing)
How can I be interested in women, who only only interested in satisfying their fetishes with or without my help... and it quickly becomes boring if you you reject all that crazy sl..nice women))
- Jun 18, 2022
- 315
- 2,183
ename144, I first want to echo what osanaiko said and thank you for the thought-provoking analysis you shared. I disagree with you more about Nothing Is Forever than I usually do, but your arguments here are as always substantive and well-considered. Let me begin with a few broad reflections.
I was pleased to see we mostly favor the same characters. Bri, Olivia, and Lea are my favorite LIs, and I am also a big Professor Cunningham fan. Kim's also my least favorite though I do play a route where I think it makes sense that the MC would pursue her. I share your concerns about Bri and Olivia's paths being underdeveloped considering where we are in the story, but I still have faith MrSilverLust will be able to carve them out the space they so richly deserve. It's possible other LIs may have to take a backseat in future updates to make this happen and I hope all the other fans will be as understanding as those of who like Bri and Olivia have been -- perhaps someone will need to take a trip or the MC's relationship with them will be so mundane (happy in love?) that it doesn't merit much screen time.
With regards to the skill tree, I think it works as designed: it adds an interesting aspect to the gameplay that you don't see in VNs very often and gives the player more freedom to develop the character he or she wants to play that is still based on their choices. Are the skills consistently applied across the game in every situation and does the way skills gatekeep content take into account all possibilities? No, but isn't that true of skill trees in all games that use them? How many RPGs let you bash in most locks if you have sufficient strength except for those certain locks that require a special key or item? If my strength is 80, why can't I just bash the whole door in? For me at least, the skill system makes Nothing Is Forever more fun to play but it isn't so all-encompassing that it distracts me away from what I regard as more important (the story and the characters).
I also wish there were more vanilla paths and hope MrSilverLust will eventually write a more romance-focused and less kink-focused game. On the other hand, most kink-focused games don't approach kinks with anywhere near the intelligence and sensitivity that Nothing Is Forever does. It occupies a unique space for an AVN that I think has value and may even encourage tolerance and understanding of certain kinks as well as provide an important outlet for people who do have those kinks. Even though I like you much prefer equality to maledom or femdom, I still find BDSM interesting on an intellectual level and it still can involve naked women and sex so it isn't all bad. And some femdom fans like Mister_M and honeryx make pretty much every discussion they participate in better so we're lucky to have them here with us.
Now, let's get to the nitty gritty. I wanted to do a point by point rebuttal, but I couldn't carve out two whole weeks to work on it. If anyone is left wanting more, I'll do a "real reply" next Christmas.
I was pleased to see we mostly favor the same characters. Bri, Olivia, and Lea are my favorite LIs, and I am also a big Professor Cunningham fan. Kim's also my least favorite though I do play a route where I think it makes sense that the MC would pursue her. I share your concerns about Bri and Olivia's paths being underdeveloped considering where we are in the story, but I still have faith MrSilverLust will be able to carve them out the space they so richly deserve. It's possible other LIs may have to take a backseat in future updates to make this happen and I hope all the other fans will be as understanding as those of who like Bri and Olivia have been -- perhaps someone will need to take a trip or the MC's relationship with them will be so mundane (happy in love?) that it doesn't merit much screen time.
With regards to the skill tree, I think it works as designed: it adds an interesting aspect to the gameplay that you don't see in VNs very often and gives the player more freedom to develop the character he or she wants to play that is still based on their choices. Are the skills consistently applied across the game in every situation and does the way skills gatekeep content take into account all possibilities? No, but isn't that true of skill trees in all games that use them? How many RPGs let you bash in most locks if you have sufficient strength except for those certain locks that require a special key or item? If my strength is 80, why can't I just bash the whole door in? For me at least, the skill system makes Nothing Is Forever more fun to play but it isn't so all-encompassing that it distracts me away from what I regard as more important (the story and the characters).
I also wish there were more vanilla paths and hope MrSilverLust will eventually write a more romance-focused and less kink-focused game. On the other hand, most kink-focused games don't approach kinks with anywhere near the intelligence and sensitivity that Nothing Is Forever does. It occupies a unique space for an AVN that I think has value and may even encourage tolerance and understanding of certain kinks as well as provide an important outlet for people who do have those kinks. Even though I like you much prefer equality to maledom or femdom, I still find BDSM interesting on an intellectual level and it still can involve naked women and sex so it isn't all bad. And some femdom fans like Mister_M and honeryx make pretty much every discussion they participate in better so we're lucky to have them here with us.
Now, let's get to the nitty gritty. I wanted to do a point by point rebuttal, but I couldn't carve out two whole weeks to work on it. If anyone is left wanting more, I'll do a "real reply" next Christmas.
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- Oct 4, 2022
- 903
- 1,698
This dude wrote more words than i ever did on any school essayename144, I first want to echo what osanaiko said and thank you for the thought-provoking analysis you shared. I disagree with you more about Nothing Is Forever than I usually do, but your arguments here are as always substantive and well-considered. Let me begin with a few broad reflections.
I was pleased to see we mostly favor the same characters. Bri, Olivia, and Lea are my favorite LIs, and I am also a big Professor Cunningham fan. Kim's also my least favorite though I do play a route where I think it makes sense that the MC would pursue her. I share your concerns about Bri and Olivia's paths being underdeveloped considering where we are in the story, but I still have faith MrSilverLust will be able to carve them out the space they so richly deserve. It's possible other LIs may have to take a backseat in future updates to make this happen and I hope all the other fans will be as understanding as those of who like Bri and Olivia have been -- perhaps someone will need to take a trip or the MC's relationship with them will be so mundane (happy in love?) that it doesn't merit much screen time.
With regards to the skill tree, I think it works as designed: it adds an interesting aspect to the gameplay that you don't see in VNs very often and gives the player more freedom to develop the character he or she wants to play that is still based on their choices. Are the skills consistently applied across the game in every situation and does the way skills gatekeep content take into account all possibilities? No, but isn't that true of skill trees in all games that use them? How many RPGs let you bash in most locks if you have sufficient strength except for those certain locks that require a special key or item? If my strength is 80, why can't I just bash the whole door in? For me at least, the skill system makes Nothing Is Forever more fun to play but it isn't so all-encompassing that it distracts me away from what I regard as more important (the story and the characters).
I also wish there were more vanilla paths and hope MrSilverLust will eventually write a more romance-focused and less kink-focused game. On the other hand, most kink-focused games don't approach kinks with anywhere near the intelligence and sensitivity that Nothing Is Forever does. It occupies a unique space for an AVN that I think has value and may even encourage tolerance and understanding of certain kinks as well as provide an important outlet for people who do have those kinks. Even though I like you much prefer equality to maledom or femdom, I still find BDSM interesting on an intellectual level and it still can involve naked women and sex so it isn't all bad. And some femdom fans like Mister_M and honeryx make pretty much every discussion they participate in better so we're lucky to have them here with us.
Now, let's get to the nitty gritty. I wanted to do a point by point rebuttal, but I couldn't carve out two whole weeks to work on it. If anyone is left wanting more, I'll do a "real reply" next Christmas.
I personally had no issues with the game's pacing. Of course, your experience is your own and equally as valid as mine. For me, though, it worked well probably because I naturally have a tendency to infer character motivations and feelings based even on relatively brief interactions. That's just how I read VNs and novels. So, for instance, when I saw Deb recognizing the MC's mental state and acting concerned for him at the beach, it immediately clicked in my mind that she really gets who the MC is as a person and clearly cares for him. I didn't need to see every interaction they had off-screen to recognize they had developed a connection. Would more scenes with them together have made it more clear? Certainly, and I know there are people who have posted in this thread that they DON'T think Deb cares about the MC. For me, though, nothing more was needed.
I actually really enjoy the fact that Nothing Is Forever is just as much about the small moments in life as it is the big, dramatic earthquakes some stories tend to focus primarily on. I enjoyed the scene with the MC and Lea having lunch together both on her path and not. Seeing two friends get together and share a fun moment isn't pointless when I enjoy the characters. Scenes like that also give us glimpses of the MC and the other characters going about their daily lives which can help us understand them better as people.
I think the MC quitting is supposed to take us a bit by surprise, but I can see a lot of reasons why he did it depending on the path he is on. You mentioned Professor Brooks' expectations, but there's also Professor Cunningham's strict interpretation of professional ethics that might weigh on his mind. In her world view, there's no room for a psychologist and patient to ever have a relationship, but the MC will have already done that twice if he pursued Jen. In addition to guilt, there's also the more practical fear caused by Kim's threats. Quitting the job thwarts her and prevents the public embarrassment she's threatened him with. Pursuing Lea while she's an intern is also potentially problematic if the MC stays at his job. Emma would be a future coworker and not a sweetie like Bri so that could get plenty messy (in fact, I think the fact that he recruits her indicates he may already be thinking of quitting because he certainly knows how contentious their relationship can be). Olivia would be the ex-girlfriend of his boss and best friend.
This is a concern I also had while playing the game, but the way the path ultimately progressed assuaged my doubts. It certainly does feel odd how the MC quickly makes the connection that Lea's fear of public speaking might indicate a latent interest in exhibitionism. He is fairly aggressive in pushing the idea though I wouldn't quite call it browbeating. The thing is Lea IS interested. She's on the shy and reserved side so she's not going to embrace the idea enthusiastically and immediately, but she finds the idea of exhibitionism interesting and acts of exhibitionism exciting. To me, there's no doubt about that. Indeed, in my Lea playthrough the MC actually acts as a restraining force on Lea at times as their relationship develops. I wanted them to share a real personal and romantic connection rather than just be exhibitionist buddies exploring a kink together. That path is definitely there and it is quite enjoyable.
Lea is an adult (in fact, she's pretty close to graduating college) and does have her own mind. Don't be fooled by her shyness and naivete -- she would be, in my opinion, completely capable of shutting the MC down if exhibitionism didn't appeal to her on some level.
I don't see Kim as stupid...I think she just doesn't give a fuck because she has very little to lose in that whole situation. She may claim to love Pete, but her version of love doesn't involve fidelity or much in the way of personal sacrifice. If Pete does leave her, I don't think she'd really be devastated by it. She could easily find someone else to dominate and cheat on. And, unlike the MC, exposing Kim's sexual indiscretions would likely have little effect on her professional life. She and Pete aren't even married. For Kim, trying to dominate and intimidate the MC is a fun game to play with little consequence if it doesn't go her way. It's not like she doesn't know there's a risk of her being found out...she loves that.
I would like to be done with Kim on most of my playthroughs and agree that it feels artificial to have her keep showing up in the game and force neutral interactions when war has already been declared. I expect some movement on the anti-Kim front very soon now that the MC is quitting his job. I will say that it didn't bother much that Kim got brought into the Monika situation -- that was Emma's idea, and Emma's always going to do what Emma is going to do. Kim was just a lawyer she happened to know as a sort of but not really friend. I'm not sure Emma would care about what the MC had to say about Kim's character unless he was willing to get really, really specific and was also romancing Emma.
- Jul 4, 2017
- 2,591
- 4,729
EndlessNights Your thoughts on the matter as so similar to mine that I feel like I almost wrote that myself, but I'm not sure I would have been as eloquent.
Excellent, insightful commentary and rebuttal. 5 stars.
Excellent, insightful commentary and rebuttal. 5 stars.
ename144, I first want to echo what osanaiko said and thank you for the thought-provoking analysis you shared. I disagree with you more about Nothing Is Forever than I usually do, but your arguments here are as always substantive and well-considered. Let me begin with a few broad reflections.
I was pleased to see we mostly favor the same characters. Bri, Olivia, and Lea are my favorite LIs, and I am also a big Professor Cunningham fan. Kim's also my least favorite though I do play a route where I think it makes sense that the MC would pursue her. I share your concerns about Bri and Olivia's paths being underdeveloped considering where we are in the story, but I still have faith MrSilverLust will be able to carve them out the space they so richly deserve. It's possible other LIs may have to take a backseat in future updates to make this happen and I hope all the other fans will be as understanding as those of who like Bri and Olivia have been -- perhaps someone will need to take a trip or the MC's relationship with them will be so mundane (happy in love?) that it doesn't merit much screen time.
With regards to the skill tree, I think it works as designed: it adds an interesting aspect to the gameplay that you don't see in VNs very often and gives the player more freedom to develop the character he or she wants to play that is still based on their choices. Are the skills consistently applied across the game in every situation and does the way skills gatekeep content take into account all possibilities? No, but isn't that true of skill trees in all games that use them? How many RPGs let you bash in most locks if you have sufficient strength except for those certain locks that require a special key or item? If my strength is 80, why can't I just bash the whole door in? For me at least, the skill system makes Nothing Is Forever more fun to play but it isn't so all-encompassing that it distracts me away from what I regard as more important (the story and the characters).
I also wish there were more vanilla paths and hope MrSilverLust will eventually write a more romance-focused and less kink-focused game. On the other hand, most kink-focused games don't approach kinks with anywhere near the intelligence and sensitivity that Nothing Is Forever does. It occupies a unique space for an AVN that I think has value and may even encourage tolerance and understanding of certain kinks as well as provide an important outlet for people who do have those kinks. Even though I like you much prefer equality to maledom or femdom, I still find BDSM interesting on an intellectual level and it still can involve naked women and sex so it isn't all bad. And some femdom fans like Mister_M and honeryx make pretty much every discussion they participate in better so we're lucky to have them here with us.
Now, let's get to the nitty gritty. I wanted to do a point by point rebuttal, but I couldn't carve out two whole weeks to work on it. If anyone is left wanting more, I'll do a "real reply" next Christmas.
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It's just a pity you can't have sex with herI remember her saying that she wanted to have fake friendship with the mc to cover for her cheating but it feel like they become like real friends and more
View attachment 2338739
View attachment 2338742
After this she just stand there shocked by the MC
She's mean, sexy, tough, and pretty
Do you have to work 365 days a year?ename144, I first want to echo what osanaiko said and thank you for the thought-provoking analysis you shared. I disagree with you more about Nothing Is Forever than I usually do, but your arguments here are as always substantive and well-considered. Let me begin with a few broad reflections.
I was pleased to see we mostly favor the same characters. Bri, Olivia, and Lea are my favorite LIs, and I am also a big Professor Cunningham fan. Kim's also my least favorite though I do play a route where I think it makes sense that the MC would pursue her. I share your concerns about Bri and Olivia's paths being underdeveloped considering where we are in the story, but I still have faith MrSilverLust will be able to carve them out the space they so richly deserve. It's possible other LIs may have to take a backseat in future updates to make this happen and I hope all the other fans will be as understanding as those of who like Bri and Olivia have been -- perhaps someone will need to take a trip or the MC's relationship with them will be so mundane (happy in love?) that it doesn't merit much screen time.
With regards to the skill tree, I think it works as designed: it adds an interesting aspect to the gameplay that you don't see in VNs very often and gives the player more freedom to develop the character he or she wants to play that is still based on their choices. Are the skills consistently applied across the game in every situation and does the way skills gatekeep content take into account all possibilities? No, but isn't that true of skill trees in all games that use them? How many RPGs let you bash in most locks if you have sufficient strength except for those certain locks that require a special key or item? If my strength is 80, why can't I just bash the whole door in? For me at least, the skill system makes Nothing Is Forever more fun to play but it isn't so all-encompassing that it distracts me away from what I regard as more important (the story and the characters).
I also wish there were more vanilla paths and hope MrSilverLust will eventually write a more romance-focused and less kink-focused game. On the other hand, most kink-focused games don't approach kinks with anywhere near the intelligence and sensitivity that Nothing Is Forever does. It occupies a unique space for an AVN that I think has value and may even encourage tolerance and understanding of certain kinks as well as provide an important outlet for people who do have those kinks. Even though I like you much prefer equality to maledom or femdom, I still find BDSM interesting on an intellectual level and it still can involve naked women and sex so it isn't all bad. And some femdom fans like Mister_M and honeryx make pretty much every discussion they participate in better so we're lucky to have them here with us.
Now, let's get to the nitty gritty. I wanted to do a point by point rebuttal, but I couldn't carve out two whole weeks to work on it. If anyone is left wanting more, I'll do a "real reply" next Christmas.
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- Jun 18, 2022
- 315
- 2,183
What I mean you can relax 1 day a week if you want
It's not an accusation on my part.
I work from home and can make my own hours.
- Jul 4, 2017
- 2,591
- 4,729