VN Ren'Py Our Red String [Ch. 12 Full] [Eva Kiss]

[herrzimm1]

Sorry, I don't feel like reading all that right now.

From what I glimpsed at the beginning though I'll just reiterate that I made no demands. Telling you what some people felt would have been a nice option to include is not a demand.

Use as much honey as you want. But when you include 2 different lines of handling a situation in ONE direction only? Then, YES! You are making a demand. You aren't presenting an "option", not even a "choice". You are presenting DICTATED CONTENT!

And doing it while not even bothering to ask if the writer feels the same way about the subject as you do? Well, then you are basically telling the write EXACTLY WHAT TO WRITE FOR YOU!

Again, if it was presented in the following, we wouldn't be having this issue:

Could it be possible to provide Ian with some kind of response in this situation? One where he is offended, while keeping another option available to support his friend in order to keep relationship points available? Or indicate some relationship impact of Ian simply hearing that kind of statement in general?


See? Not only does it ask without demanding only one option, but does so with providing assistance to Eva on how to guide the scene using the "game stats" as pro/con interaction with a character. And it leaves open a very simple method for Eva to express Ian being upset with hearing it and not having to re-write the entire scene by a simple +/- relationship change.

No accusations, not a single "request" of handling it in one way, not even a hint as to what MY own personal views are other than the use of "that kind of statement", which implies that I did not like it without assuming that Eva was trying to be 'offensive' or pushing Eva's own views onto me.

It is HOW you do it that makes the difference. And doing it in a way that comes across as making 'demands' (even if that isn't your intention to begin with) turns it into a negative interaction. Leaving it open-ended for creative talents WHILE pointing out that the interaction itself SHOULD be viewed as a "relationship moment between characters" but wasn't can draw Eva's attention to that moment and BUILD on it, use it as a wedge, or simply ding it with a +/- and STILL indicate Ian's feelings about the matter without a full re-write or re-working the scene completely.

 

[herrzimm1]

Goes on a nonsense rant then make a wall of text to explain said rant...

Sometimes, yes/no isn't enough.

 

[Tallyhoe]

Shouldn’t Eva be free to write a ‘character’ as she sees fit? All of ORS cast are a lot more grounded compared to GGGB like she wants it to be. They, to some degree, don’t fit to too many stereotypes and they all have some flaws.

Lena and Ian are not blank slates, never have been. They both have certain characteristics and perspectives to the world based on their characters’ experiences. You can only choose or influence them to go certain ways based on your liking. I know options are good and of course you’d want every option possible but at some point you can’t add everything. These people she writes may be skeptical or bias for/against something based on their character. Why does everything has to be either sexist or racist?

 

[BlandChili]

Use as much honey as you want. But when you include 2 different lines of handling a situation in ONE direction only? Then, YES! You are making a demand. You aren't presenting an "option", not even a "choice". You are presenting DICTATED CONTENT!

I was not presenting dictated content.

 

[BlandChili]

Shouldn’t Eva be free to write a ‘character’ as she sees fit? All of ORS cast are a lot more grounded compared to GGGB like she wants it to be. They, to some degree, don’t fit to too many stereotypes and they all have some flaws.

Of course, I think Eva is smart if she listens to feedback, like she has done, but ultimately she's n charge.

Lena and Ian are not blank slates, never have been. They both have certain characteristics and perspectives to the world based on their chracters’ experiences. You can only choose or influence them to go certain ways based on your liking. I know options are good and of course you’d want every option possible but at some point you can’t add everything. These people she writes may be skeptical or bias for/against something based on their character. Why does everything has to be either sexist or racist?

I think it depends somewhat on what she's selling actually.

A part of the pitch of ORS is "your choices matter" so I don't think it's undue criticism that people point out if they feel like they are only allowed to express a narrow perspective. In the above discussed example Ian has no history, good or bad, in relation to transgender people that we know of so there isn't really a reason to limit his response options in that specific instance.

That is not to say that Eva has to do anything, but I also don't think people should be called demanding because they feel limited in some situations. It's all part of the creative process that you can't satisfy everyone and Eva herself has to consider what feedback to consider when implementing changes, if and when she chooses to implement any,

 

[Deleted member 3064965]

Both statements that I had underlined and made bold are direct DEMANDS on a writer to create limited content and interaction for a character's option. BOTH statements singled out speaking on BEHALF of a topic. BOTH statements single out ONE way, and ONE way only, for the writer to handle a topic overall.

THAT is why I aimed my displeasure at you directly. Although, in fairness, the use of the word 'you' should be thought of more as a 'generic you use' and not 'specific you use' for a lot of what I say online. So, while it was aimed at you to make my point, I opted to emphasize the word for 'generic use' to aim at other at the same time. More of a "directed statement" that is able to be used as a "generic statement" as well.

Now, as far as your 2 pts? Uh, you are aware that they are completely countering each other, right? I mean, the first one is basically saying "I'm not telling you what to do, but X-Y-Z" followed immediately by point 2 which is basically saying "Well, since you didn't do X-Y-Z like I told you to, no wonder it failed."

Again, it is how you (generic) come across supporting content in general. Asking if it is possible, suggesting adding it when/where it fits the best, asking the writer how they feel in regards to comfort level and determining where the line is drawn for creative/player enjoyment? This style of approach is highly encouraged and can enhance a project in numerous ways.

But if you (again, generic) start to say content HAS to be added, especially for "these characters" while dismissing other characters, AND include (the often annoying as hell) 'suggestion' of how that content should be played out or how it should be handled? Well, that is when it is best for everyone involved to move on and create a new project instead.

Look, here's the thing. I have seen how this plays out as a creator first hand. Working on prior games, I've had interactions with players/fans who start to push more and more for content that they want, rather than the content you want to write in your own game. THE BEST example of this is making a game with a female lead character, and being instantly flooded with demands for lesbian/futa type content. Or even full Trans content and not Futa. The thing is, on a creative level, that type of content can really throw the writer off. Comfort level, how to work it into a scene with one character working better than another ... which often ticks off the fans who have suggested it to begin with because it isn't the "right character" to use. Even having to throw out entire game design elements or story-arcs JUST to make it work in SOME form or another, only to have fans turn right around and stab you in the back for saying it wasn't "enough" for them to enjoy.

I've seen this with fetishes as well. BDSM that doesn't go far enough. "Scat content" being demanded be added to a game, when as a writer that exact same content turns me OFF, which makes it impossible to write a convincing 'sexy scene' while being 'revolted' creatively. BBC requested with zero Black people involved, and now a need to create a completely new character AND figure out what role they play that isn't going to get me accused of being a racists because of some offensive content that I never even intended, or saw, while creating them. (Such as making him the captain of the basketball team suddenly making me a racist because he is ON a basketball team at all, despite CLEARLY pointing out that he is the captain and has plans on getting a scholarship to go to collage.) NTR/Bukkake content where I have to now create a "storm" of location, people involved, why it happens at THIS specific time in the story, just how does it play out for the player overall, IS there a path out of it, and if there is a path out of it does that mean players are going to be pissed off at me for doing so, HOW does it end, what is the aftermath of the event in general, DO any side-characters get involved and if so how/why and what fallout results of that, does it block off other paths with other characters? See what I mean?

Gay, Lesbian, Trans, Futa, Shota, NTR, Cuck, BBC, BDSM and various other "choices" should come from the creator and the creator ONLY. Should only be done to the extent of the creator's comfort level. And should only come from the creator who knows how to use that content in their project to advance the project overall, not take a detour "just for this content option".

Once it starts coming from outside sources, it makes it difficult for the creator to work into what they have planned, or what they have already got into the game. Which is why suddenly "demanding it" from a fan that wants it done "just like this" or with "these specific characters"? Well, then the only thing to do creatively is to simply tell that fan to do their own thing.

And all of this becomes extremely difficult, if not flat out IMPOSSIBLE, if the writer has to take into account someone else's political/social point of view. So pointing out that characters of this race can ONLY be written in this way, that sexual preference has to be somehow "encouraged" over other choices, or physical traits/attributes have to be "accepted" while "not disliked" by anyone for any reason.... Well, it tosses out so many "roadblocks" creatively, that the creator actually reaches a point of not BEING ABLE to create at all.

And that is where my own personal anger came from. Having experienced it first hand, I know what it does to the creator. I know that it evolves into a situation of NOT being able to please the same people you are TRYING to please. I know that once they see you cave and start to write for ONE piece of content that wasn't originally included, then they will want you to start adding in THEIR piece of content as well. Even if their content is completely AGAINST the sort of set-up and relationships that you have been building since Day 1. I know how a simple suggestion that you are considering, or may have hinted at because you haven't quite reached HOW you will work it in, but want to establish the ground work.... suddenly turns into a FLOOD of outsiders wanting it to be this way, or that way, or this other way, or just like this but with a twist.

Like I said. It becomes impossible to do on a creative level. It tends to destroy creative production. It bogs down into constant re-working the same content over and over trying to reach that 'right amount' that will please people AND allow you to move forward as a creator.

And that is why, when someone stats to demand that writes handle a topic in "this way only", I get ticked off. Because I know what it does to the person creating the game. It demoralizes them. It turns them into cowards, afraid that the slightest mistake will be blown out of proportion. The amount of HATRED that gets dumped on them for taking the wrong side of an issue for creative purposes, even if it isn't the side they support personally. And it gets to the point of the creator basically asking "why bother" and just flat out stop trying to BE creative, resulting in repetitive content, characters and story lines.

So, in short. Yeah, your post combined with earlier posts just reached my limits and I "barked".

No, those are not demands. It's not even close to being demands. It's a summary of how several members on the forum perceived a specific scene and its dialogue. Some agreed, some disagreed, and it was discussed in a mostly civil and polite way, which is more than I can say of your completely out of the blue rants.

And that's what people do on a forum like this, you know? We discuss the content of the game – what we like, what we miss or like less, and what we hope or expect to see in the coming updates. Also, this forum and thread don't even have any connection to the creator. Sometimes people are discussing how a scene or a storyline specifically could have been adjusted to work better, but no-one expects Eva Kiss to log onto a pirate forum and change her game because of the members' impression of the different parts of the game. People discuss it because they're interested in storytelling and what makes a scene work or not.

Also, in a lot of the cases where a specific part of the game have gotten a less enthusiastic reception, the members of her Discord channel have given more or less the same arguments. But it's still not demands, it's feedback. Which is something everyone who write stories need in some way. Sometimes Eva considers the feedback and agrees, and then makes adjustments to the game, as was the case with Ian's new outfits a few weeks ago. And sometimes she doesn't agree, as was seemingly the case with this specific dialogue about trans people. So she didn't change it, and then people accepted it, because it's her game and she can choose to follow the feedback's suggestions or not.

 

[herrzimm1]

I was not presenting dictated content.

Ok, you can all the ice cream you want. But you have to pick between one scoop of vanilla or one scoop of vanilla.

Is that a "choice"? Do you really have an "option"? Is there any other way to think about this other than YOU (generally) are telling me to have one scoop of vanilla and NOTHING ELSE?

HOW is that not "demanding" someone to reach the outcome that has been DICTATED TO them in regards to having ANY ice cream at all?

Again, when a comment is made and TWO different lines of that comment appear to determine the 'approved outcome' within the same paragraph. Then YES, that is a DEMAND being made.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

writing is the same as well just not has raciest and transbhic has her first game

I'd say it's pretty racy. Not the raciest, but it's got some spice. Tran sbhic does have her first game. It was translated into Laotian, fortunately, and he says it's "ດີຫຼາຍ". (He enjoyed it).

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

all yes here we see classic Anit SJW G#mmer in the wild in there nature habit

Well, you certainly spell like one.

 

[dontcarewhateverno]

As long as the game isn't explicitely spewing harmful ideologies (i.e "all black people are thugs" or "all transgender people are perverts and creeps"), I don't see the point in assuming the worst just because a character in the game fits the stereotype.

TBF, you don't get any brownie points or gold virtue stars for not assuming the worst. How else will one ever show their moral superiority?

 

[jockywyness]

Now, as far as the issue of Trans characters. Well, had to be the one to pop your bubble on this one. But Trans characters are the hardest characters to write in a game because you are stuck with only TWO available options.

Either you include them, and absolutely 100% make them a "positive example" in EVERY way possible that they become completely unbelievable. They are so perfect in attitude, appearance, social standing, intellect, ability and sexual prowess. You have to give them the "edge" in EVERY possible way that they go into the realm of "god-like". I've even seen Trans characters simply overwhelming the MC with their "perfection" that the MC is more of an 'after-thought' than the main focus. AND they are often represented in such a way that the MC simply can't help but be completely overwhelmed by their perfection (in one way or another) that they can never resist the slightest hint of involvement.

Or you include them, treat them as ACTUAL human beings and suddenly get called every "ist" or "phobic" in the book. God forbid that some other character DISLIKES the Trans person because the writer is an "ist or phobic". God forbid that the Trans person FAILS at doing something because the writer is an 'ist or phobic'. God forbid that someone turns DOWN a Trans person because the writer is an "ist or phobic". God forbid that the Trans person isn't provided the majority of game-play because the writer is an 'ist or phobic'. You simply CANNOT write a REALISTIC Trans character with flaws in their character, who has conflict of personalities with another character, or simply is the "villain' because of their goals or behavior because assholes LIKE YOU instantly assumes that it is due to being an "ist or phobia".

Do you see anyone complaining that there was a trans person in GGGB who had flaws in their character? No, you see them complaining that the one trans person in the game literally sexually assaults the MC. But yes, I suppose a willingness to sexually assault someone does count as a character flaw.

Just like the complaint isn't "there's a black rapper/thug in the game." It's that all the black people are rappers and/or thugs.

To be fair, I don't think Evakiss is racist or transphobic. I think she, like you seem to be saying, is trying to appeal to various kinks and doing so in the way she knows how. And GGGB is a billion miles away from being the worst offender on the racism/transphobia front. I just don't see how you could say that mentioning these issues is invalid.

 

[herrzimm1]

Do you see anyone complaining that there was a trans person in GGGB who had flaws in their character? No, you see them complaining that the one trans person in the game literally sexually assaults the MC. But yes, I suppose a willingness to sexually assault someone does count as a character flaw.

Just like the complaint isn't "there's a black rapper/thug in the game." It's that all the black people are rappers and/or thugs.

To be fair, I don't think Evakiss is racist or transphobic. I think she, like you seem to be saying, is trying to appeal to various kinks and doing so in the way she knows how. And GGGB is a billion miles away from being the worst offender on the racism/transphobia front. I just don't see how you could say that mentioning these issues is invalid.

In GGGB, the ONE trans character can be easily avoided, and even WITH reaching the sexual assault content, can be easily avoided another time. There is no "fallout" for said assault, I don't recall ANYONE making a negative comment ABOUT being a trans person, and it is a character that is obviously there for "kink content" as they can be completely removed through gameplay with no repercussions or addressing them in general. Basically "I'm here for the sex" and little to absolutely NOTHING else. So, not the best example of a trans character in a game. But not even CLOSE to being the WORST version that I've seen in a game either. Even so, the issue OF BEING a trans character is basically dropped like a damn ton of bricks and hardly even mentioned at all.

Now, to be fair.... Can't recall his name, but want to say Tyrone/T-bone, something with a T, I think.... is introduced to us AS a rapper. So he has already established SOME level of awareness as a rapper. It makes sense that the other Black men (Who HE introduces us to) are either "fellow rappers", or if not rappers they are his "friends". And again, given his success at rapping, you could even say that they are his 'entourage' or possibly people who work behind the scenes in the studio such as producing beats, or sound engineer, or even possibly 'ghost-writer'. So, as far as "all the Black people being in rap", there is a ton of more leeway involved to justify them being associated "as rappers" even if they aren't actual rappers.

The gang? Well, yeah. Hate to admit it, but the game appeared to be a case of "All Hispanic characters are gang-members", so not much of a leg to stand on. Think that the intention was to represent a "local community" more than imply "all ... are thugs" concept. But, yeah, like I said... kind of hard to miss that one and haven't got a leg to stand on.

So yeah. Easily avoided trans character is flawed as a character... but nobody seems to be for or against them as a trans. Almost like THAT part of their character is completely IGNORED.

The Black people in GGGB can easily be "justified" as rappers, or in the rap industry in general.

Gang ..... uh, nope, I got nothing in regard to the gang.

No, Eva has never done anything that makes me instantly accuse Eva of being an "ist" or "phobic". Maybe not comfortable enough to go too much into character story/background? Decided to keep some people "clumped together" for ease of setting up a moment (situation), or possibly to expand "random friends" for one better established character. Even THAT issue could easily be justified as career choices. And another group that..... yeah, still got nothing in regard to the gang.

However, I should point out that when I play GGGB, I purposefully AVOID the trans character because I don't like "one use characters", and I AVOID the gang, mostly because I don't really enjoy their overall story. So, when it comes to defending/complaining GGGB, my playthough choices tended to be limited overall.

 

[Moryaka26]

Do you think MMA Tournament will start in the next chapter ?

 

[TamaMountain]

Do you think MMA Tournament will start in the next chapter ?

As much as I am looking forward to it, I don't think so. Eva usually gives us a heads up in-game to inform the players that a big event will happen soon, then implements it in the following chapters.

That fact that neither Wen, Yuri or Jeremy has given Ian a date of the tournament or mention anything else about it, makes me think it will not happen. Who knows, maybe this plotline will resurface in ch 9. Even then, I think it will take a few more chapters. Beating up Robert doesn't mean much if Ian is to stand a chance.

 

[BlandChili]

Ok, you can all the ice cream you want. But you have to pick between one scoop of vanilla or one scoop of vanilla.

Is that a "choice"? Do you really have an "option"? Is there any other way to think about this other than YOU (generally) are telling me to have one scoop of vanilla and NOTHING ELSE?

HOW is that not "demanding" someone to reach the outcome that has been DICTATED TO them in regards to having ANY ice cream at all?

I don't get this analogy. The option that some people would have liked wouldn't replace the ones already in the scene, it'd just be an addition. The options of strawberry, chocolate, mint and caramel would still be available for anyone to choose.

Again, when a comment is made and TWO different lines of that comment appear to determine the 'approved outcome' within the same paragraph. Then YES, that is a DEMAND being made.

Neither line you highlighted demanded anything. Sure, to some that option would be an approved outcome, but this hypothetical response wouldn't have been forced on anyone who wouldn't want to pick it.

 

[jamiroq]

Watts and Faraday, huh? That's an elegant way to indicate real electricity between them.
Now I expect the rest of the cast to be named Volta, de Coulomb, Ampere, Ohm, Maxwell and so on.
Byline of their party would read like it's a physics Nobel prize afterparty.

 

[BlandChili]

Watts and Faraday, huh? That's an elegant way to indicate real electricity between them.
Now I expect the rest of the cast to be named Volta, de Coulomb, Ampere, Ohm, Maxwell and so on.
Byline of their party would read like it's a physics Nobel prize afterparty.

Holly's surname is Watson, right? Not too far off I suppose from Watts.

 

[JoJoPool]

So what you want is the Gallery mode. Lucky for you, there is one.

Have you not seen the animation of Jeremy's bobbing dick during Ivy's game?

Too bad it's unlikely that anybody will see that shoot (because of the Seymour branch). Seymour is a private person and never shares his work with anyone (until he decides he's ready/good enough). However, if you instead posed with Axel for Danny and Agnes, she should've displayed the pictures already. But because there was no reaction to that from anyone (except Ivy who learned about the shoot from Lena herself), it doesn't seem like it will have any impact on the story or the characters besides Lena and Axel... It would've been a perfect way to see if Ian/Robert can really handle dating an erotic model.

about the gallery ... is she going to integrate the JDmod in the game or make her own ?

 

[godoff95]

wonder who'll be tesla.

 

[magicuser007]

You must be registered to see the links

Perry is, surprisingly enough, a Pisces. He has a very high Lust but he hasn't managed to focus that energy properly... yet. Are you helping him out or are you stealing away any chance of success he's got?