VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

selberdreher · Jan 15, 2022

ename144 said:
To be clear, I'm not trying to convince Mina to stay together with Ian; as I said, that's up to her. But Ian owes her an apology whether she accepts it or not. That's what I'm trying to accomplish, that and having the MC to stick with Ian through the process. He's a friend who needs help, so I'll try to help him.

I don't see that as sacrificing Mina. She's free to make up with Ian or move on. I'll help her either way, if I can. But I don't think starting an affair with her would help her any more than it would help Ian. (...)

I havent played this route, so i am not familiar with it, but i am curious: What were your decisions (roughly) to get or will get you there? Especially the apology, is it who you call with the last decision? (i called my Mom, since i am a good boy

)
It is my understanding that you turned her down: is there a talk about breaking up with Ian afterwards? Because if you cheat you have a Talk about that in the bathtub, and i dont think you will get there after you turned her down.
And also lets say, Mina decides to stay with Killian: he will surely not change his way and views from one second to another, there will be more "slips" along the process; how much of them should Mina endure until you, who tries to help her also, steps in?

Oh, and ofc i dont try to convince you to play anything else than the route you chose, please do that by all means.

Because personally i think it is a major dick move to go after your friends girl (honestly i think it is despicable); but i believe also that there may be circumstances which justify that.

ename144 · Jan 15, 2022

selberdreher said:
I havent played this route, so i am not familiar with it, but i am curious: What were your decisions (roughly) to get or will get you there? Especially the apology, is it who you call with the last decision? (i called my Mom, since i am a good boy )
It is my understanding that you turned her down: is there a talk about breaking up with Ian afterwards? Because if you cheat you have a Talk about that in the bathtub, and i dont think you will get there after you turned her down.
And also lets say, Mina decides to stay with Killian: he will surely not change his way and views from one second to another, there will be more "slips" along the process; how much of them should Mina endure until you, who tries to help her also, steps in?

Oh, and ofc i dont try to convince you to play anything else than the route you chose, please do that by all means.

Because personally i think it is a major dick move to go after your friends girl (honestly i think it is despicable); but i believe also that there may be circumstances which justify that.

Oh, as of right now there's no apology. You can call Ian, but he's just thrilled at a chance to talk to his BFF about mundane things.

I'm merely hoping that in the future we'll get the opportunity to encourage better behavior from him, starting by owning up to how he treated Mina. As I said, I don't think that could happen if you make a move on Mina yourself, but this is all pure speculation on my part.

If you turn Mina down, you briefly discuss why, which can be either because you don't want to ruin your friendship with her, or because of Ian. Sadly, the discussion doesn't go very deep, which was one of my few disappointments with the episode. Either way Mina's understandably unhappy, but eventually agrees to let the MC cook her dinner and watch an over-the-top action movie. It ends with them still being friends.

BTW, if this movie is real I am totally watching it next time I have to deal with a painful breakup!

selberdreher · Jan 15, 2022

ename144 said:
BTW, if this movie is real I am totally watching it next time I have to deal with a painful breakup!

Awesome Screenshot! Try to google it, there are quite a few real movies referenced in PC! Hahaha, really Badass, love it!

Turret · Jan 15, 2022

ename144 said:
I don't know. For all Hana's affectations, she's been pretty reserved when it comes to her relationships from what we've seen. IMHO she'd absolutely be up for a threesome with Mina under the right circumstances, but I think she'd want a better idea of where she (and Mina) stands with the MC if it ever came to pass. I don't think Hana would be interested in an 'open' relationship.

I see this similar as you do. A part of Hana is wild, fun- and freedomloving and means it, but another part of her is very much about family. You can see this how she talks about her grandpa or during the "I never" game about relationships. It is one reason August has such a steep uphill battle trying to gain her affection.
I can see a threesome between the MC, Mina and Hana "for fun" under the right circumstances, but an open relationship definitely not. As I mentioned earlier, Hana shut down most of her social life when she was just a bartender wearing hot lingerie. That is a job which would scare really few guys away. When it comes to deeper relationships and marriage, Hana is not the type for big experiments.

As Turret said, Ian's been taught to think of relationships as cynical, transactional things. That was his excuse for why he was so uncaring towards Mina:
View attachment 1598697 View attachment 1598698 View attachment 1598699

And you can see shades of that if the MC tells him Mina found the tumbdrive:
View attachment 1598702

IMHO, it seems like Ian did have some genuine feelings for Mina, but he's trained himself to downplay them because that's how it's "supposed" to work. The fact that even now Mina isn't behaving the way she's supposed to is unnervingly confusing for him because it makes it harder to downplay those feelings. Of course, that makes him feel like shit since he treated Mina horribly, so it's no surprise that he's still trying to cling to the idea that she never really cared about him and this is all some sort of con.

To me, that suggests that if we take Mina up on her offer, Ian probably will be gone for good. It's not about the MC 'betraying' him, it's just that we would provide the perfect proof that he was right to be cynical: his behavior didn't hurt Mina in the slightest. She might even be better off for it. No need for painful introspection - full sleaze ahead!

On the other hand, if we pressure Ian to stop being an asshole and make it up to Mina, there's a chance he could start to change. The relationship might still be dead (that's really up to Mina), but it's the only chance I see to pull Ian out of the self-destructive spiral he's in. It's also the right thing to do, which is a nice plus.

Thanks and I definitely agree with your point of view on the Killian-Mina stuff.

It can vary a bit even here in the States. The tech industry has a famously high tolerance for initial failures. Owning a gym may not be as forgiving; there's a much higher upfront cost and much lower expected returns if the business works out. Veronica might have a hard time getting started on a new gym, especially if she goes into bankruptcy with minimal assets relative to her expenses. It would probably be a long process, which raises the question of what Veronica would do for a living until she's ready to start again. With Samson working against her it may be difficult to make ends meet as a freelance trainer, though admittedly Veronica wouldn't know that.

That's not to say Veronica isn't overly fixated on keeping the gym open. She's a very prideful woman, and the gym is dear to her heart; it's clear she's not entirely rational in her assessment. But it's not JUST about her feelings. There are valid reasons for Veronica to want to keep her current business going if possible. And now that she's involved with the Club, dropping out is not a viable option. Even ignoring Samson, Kathleen is clearly vindictive enough to punish Veronica if she does anything to ruin the Exhibition.

I see this similar, my point about Vera not really needing to go to the club was more about the beginning. Before the start, since while her situation is bad, she still has options not being the PC Club.
After start naturally she cannot simply go away, Kath would not allow this.

It really depends on how you look at it. Sure, the Club would give her access to a network beyond Elias, but that only helps if the network is willing to help her. Based on what Kathleen and Harper have said (and done), it's not clear they would. Even if Felecia wins I think most patrons would give her the same level of respect than Elias did. So it's a questionable fix.

Felicia's core problem is that she thinks sex appeal is all she's good for. She can't really comprehend the idea of building up her own network of contacts using the tools she already has at her disposal. That's why I grade her objective as the least compelling of the Carnations; even if she wins, it's uncertain if she'd be better off than if she lost and was forced to develop her other talents. Veronica may not be making the best choices, but a pile of cash will address a bunch of her problems. (Obviously Rosalind is far and a way the one with the best reason to win.)

Of course when you get down to it, the Exhibition is just the means to an end. I'd love it if we could find a way to solve all the girls' problems outside the Club and they could bail in the final week en masse. Granted, that would be all but impossible to pull off (as I mentioned, Kathleen is vindicitve), but it would be exceptionally satisfying.

There is a reason Felicia has a self-assurance stat, which the MC can help to raise. I theorise, that no matter if Feli wins or not, this stat will play a big role how much power, influence and respect (and what type of) she will gain in the end. And it will play a role how we play the MC. If he is decent, helpful, indifferent, in league with Kath, out for his own, likes/loves Felicia and so on.

Alvar101 · Jan 15, 2022

just finished the build how frequent are the updates ?

Turret · Jan 15, 2022

selberdreher said:
I havent played this route, so i am not familiar with it, but i am curious: What were your decisions (roughly) to get or will get you there? Especially the apology, is it who you call with the last decision? (i called my Mom, since i am a good boy )
It is my understanding that you turned her down: is there a talk about breaking up with Ian afterwards? Because if you cheat you have a Talk about that in the bathtub, and i dont think you will get there after you turned her down.

The telephone call late in the current update has less to do with the Ian-Mina relationship, in my opinion, than with underscoring which characters Edwin likes. It is just a theory, but if you call a love interest, the game will remember this.

But back to your question, while there are future decisions to be made which will impact if Mina adn Ian reconcile, when you reject or accept Mina´s advances, there is a talk. And while it is short, the various answers have spins either towards reconciliation with Ian or breaking up, at least I interpret them so.

selberdreher · Jan 15, 2022

Alvar101 said:
just finished the build how frequent are the updates ?

i think they are roughly every 3 months, but tend to be HUGE (like hours of gameplay if you read it, and you should, seriously)

Maverick369 · Jan 15, 2022

yes it has been averaging every 3 months and each chapter usually has anywhere from 3 to 4 massive updates. Next update which is number 4 will complete chapter 3. Your looking at about two more years before it is completed

MilesEdgeworth · Jan 16, 2022

way I see things is that felicia winning benefits all three as Im fairly certain that she'd help the other two ladies whereas the other ladies may have better reasons, their winning basically only benefits themselves

ename144 · Jan 16, 2022

Alvar101 said:
just finished the build how frequent are the updates ?

They've mostly been in the 100-120 days range.

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Chapter 3 Update 2 was delayed by real life. Chapter 3 Update 3 was supposed to be a mini update to get back on pace, but it was hit by gamma radiation and grew to enormous size. Fortunately rather than demolish Tokyo, it chose to provide hours of quality entertainment for us fans!

Also, since I was convinced to tabulate stats for favorite girls in the City of Broken Dreamers thread, I figured I'd try adapting my new technology to Pale Carnations. It's a clunky process, especially with this many characters, and several lists excluding the male characters. So take this with a grain of salt. Also, in a display of brazen bias, I chose not to include the MC in this list; it didn't seem fair since his personality is much more variable.

Anyway, here's the data from the last week or so, assuming I didn't make any mistakes transcribing it.

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Turret · Jan 16, 2022

Quite interesting charts! Good work, thumbs up for it!

One question, you spoke of the tiers, did you just include the lists of those made with this tiermaker thingie or did you include the top ten lists as well? And if so, how did you assign the tiers there?

ename144 · Jan 16, 2022

Turret said:
Quite interesting charts! Good work, thumbs up for it!
One question, you spoke of the tiers, did you just include the lists of those made with this tiermaker thingie or did you include the top ten lists as well? And if so, how did you assign the tiers there?

I mentioned it briefly in the Favorite Character section, but I did include top 10 lists as well (though it's possible I missed some). I assumed each character was a tier unto themselves unless the list specifically mentioned a tie.

Turret · Jan 16, 2022

ename144 said:
I mentioned it briefly in the Favorite Character section, but I did include top 10 lists as well (though it's possible I missed some). I assumed each character was a tier unto themselves unless the list specifically mentioned a tie.

Great and thanks for the clarification!

When I have the time, I will make my detailed list for the males. A simple top ten I already have out.

SoonAtHome · Jan 16, 2022

great work on the wet skin rendering >

selberdreher · Jan 16, 2022

selberdreher said:
No, at best Killian LIKES Mina, which is probably more than he felt with his other flings.
In my opinion there are exactly two people for whom Killian has deep feelings: Victoria and Edwin.

Let me elaborate a bit further, since some of you guys seem to believe that Killian is in Love with Mina and just cant show it.

Turret said:
Killian´s biggest problem when it comes to relationships is how he was brought up. His Mom gave him less love than the kids she works with and rarely was she there for him when he needed it.

ename144 said:
As Turret said, Ian's been taught to think of relationships as cynical, transactional things.

No real dispute here, i think along these lines aswell.

But lets compare Killians behaviour towards Victoria versus Mina:

When Edwin meets Ian and Mina for the first time in the cafe, Mina is looking away from Ian, visible unpleased, so they werent engaged in any interactions, like talking or holding hands or looking in each others eyes, which make a date nice. If Edwin hugs Mina tighter, Ian looks away, indicating he is uncomfortable with it, Mina says "People dont hug enough"; this shows that she starves for non-sexual physical intimacy, Ian probably never hugged her.
In contrast: even though Ian was embarrassed (he was teased about his "Put your cock away" line), he had no problem at all to hug Victoria while she is visiting Edwins new apartment at the start of Week 1. Furthermore, and i think that is important, he blushes not before but after the hug. Blushing is an involuntary reaction settled deep within the vegetative nerve system indicating stuff like embarrassment, joy and arousal. It usually cannot be influenced deliberately, because it is that deep wired. Yeah and since he was already embarrassed without blushing the trigger for it seems to be something else.

I understand that there are people who have a hard time showing affection to their loved ones, but even those usually make up this lack with other actions. Like japanese people often express their love with small gifts or preparing food for their significant other, showing that they thought about them and offered up some of their own time preparing the meals. We have not seen such small interactions from Ian towards Mina.

Another indicator for Love would be that people usually enjoy to and want to spend time with their beloved ones. This is also more involuntary than deliberately, you would just seek the others company, because of that sweet endorphines it triggers.

Killian strolls away from Mina on their club night, is more than happy to pass Minas shopping Date to Edwin, and her acting rehearsals for roles seemed more like a chore to him than a fun hangout with a crush. This shows that he is actively avoiding her company on more than one occasions.
On the other hand he actively seeks out spending time with Edwin and Victoria. He readily agrees to have dinner with them and even her movie night proposal is met with enthusiasm ("I would love to, Mrs Turner.") he asks for what movie she proposes, which shows his interest, and approves without hesitation, which shows that he want to accomodate her. Edwin reluctantly agreeing to it, shows that objectively the choice isnt that great, unless you are a fan (Victoria) or you are fanning over someone who is (Killian).

I still had some more observations to share, but this is already becoming a wall of text again, damn it.
So i try to wrap it up:

Killian has issues regarding his personal relationships, be them of romantic nature or otherwise - true
Uncle Chuck and Mrs Beaufort are most likely to blame for those issues - true
Since Killian chooses to deliberately hide his feelings, we have to observe his actual actions and involuntary reactions that give away his true feelings.
Those show a blatant contrast between Edwin and Victoria on the one side and Mina on the other side.
This makes me believe that the feelings he has for Victoria and Mina are not the same.
if i had to evaluate them i would use terms like "deeper" or "stronger" for those towards Victoria.
if we call stronger or deeper feelings Love, we can probably say "Killian loves Victoria", but since those feelings toward Mina are considerably weaker we have to say "Killian likes Mina"
and lastly, what bothered me the most is: if Killian sees relationships as cynical, transactional objects, why doesnt apply this view also to his relation with the Turners?

I would like to say here "Quod erat demonstrandum", yeah but honestly none of my points are actual Proof(s?), although i believe they are strong indicators which back up my theory.
I would like also to go into deeper(?) depths about Killians relationship towards his Uncle Chuck and his Mother Grace Beaufort, but that is for another post.

RC-1138 Boss · Jan 16, 2022

Victoria and Edwin are the relationships that Ian cultivated in a time when he was trully happy after the bullying ended at school and as such they aren't tainted by the influence of his uncle Chuck.

I think i mentioned here before that i believe Ian only stays with Mina because he wants to keep the appearance of having a girlfriend to the rest of society. I suppose this is one more instance of Ian trying to emulate his (sexual predator) uncle: making up a facade of being a common good guy in front of everyone else.

ename144 · Jan 16, 2022

selberdreher said:
Let me elaborate a bit further, since some of you guys seem to believe that Killian is in Love with Mina and just cant show it.

No real dispute here, i think along these lines aswell.

But lets compare Killians behaviour towards Victoria versus Mina:

When Edwin meets Ian and Mina for the first time in the cafe, Mina is looking away from Ian, visible unpleased, so they werent engaged in any interactions, like talking or holding hands or looking in each others eyes, which make a date nice. If Edwin hugs Mina tighter, Ian looks away, indicating he is uncomfortable with it, Mina says "People dont hug enough"; this shows that she starves for non-sexual physical intimacy, Ian probably never hugged her.
In contrast: even though Ian was embarrassed (he was teased about his "Put your cock away" line), he had no problem at all to hug Victoria while she is visiting Edwins new apartment at the start of Week 1. Furthermore, and i think that is important, he blushes not before but after the hug. Blushing is an involuntary reaction settled deep within the vegetative nerve system indicating stuff like embarrassment, joy and arousal. It usually cannot be influenced deliberately, because it is that deep wired. Yeah and since he was already embarrassed without blushing the trigger for it seems to be something else.

I understand that there are people who have a hard time showing affection to their loved ones, but even those usually make up this lack with other actions. Like japanese people often express their love with small gifts or preparing food for their significant other, showing that they thought about them and offered up some of their own time preparing the meals. We have not seen such small interactions from Ian towards Mina.

Another indicator for Love would be that people usually enjoy to and want to spend time with their beloved ones. This is also more involuntary than deliberately, you would just seek the others company, because of that sweet endorphines it triggers.

Killian strolls away from Mina on their club night, is more than happy to pass Minas shopping Date to Edwin, and her acting rehearsals for roles seemed more like a chore to him than a fun hangout with a crush. This shows that he is actively avoiding her company on more than one occasions.
On the other hand he actively seeks out spending time with Edwin and Victoria. He readily agrees to have dinner with them and even her movie night proposal is met with enthusiasm ("I would love to, Mrs Turner.") he asks for what movie she proposes, which shows his interest, and approves without hesitation, which shows that he want to accomodate her. Edwin reluctantly agreeing to it, shows that objectively the choice isnt that great, unless you are a fan (Victoria) or you are fanning over someone who is (Killian).

I still had some more observations to share, but this is already becoming a wall of text again, damn it.
So i try to wrap it up:

Killian has issues regarding his personal relationships, be them of romantic nature or otherwise - true

Uncle Chuck and Mrs Beaufort are most likely to blame for those issues - true

Since Killian chooses to deliberately hide his feelings, we have to observe his actual actions and involuntary reactions that give away his true feelings.

Those show a blatant contrast between Edwin and Victoria on the one side and Mina on the other side.

This makes me believe that the feelings he has for Victoria and Mina are not the same.

if i had to evaluate them i would use terms like "deeper" or "stronger" for those towards Victoria.

if we call stronger or deeper feelings Love, we can probably say "Killian loves Victoria", but since those feelings toward Mina are considerably weaker we have to say "Killian likes Mina"

and lastly, what bothered me the most is: if Killian sees relationships as cynical, transactional objects, why doesnt apply this view also to his relation with the Turners?

I would like to say here "Quod erat demonstrandum", yeah but honestly none of my points are actual Proof(s?), although i believe they are strong indicators which back up my theory.
I would like also to go into deeper(?) depths about Killians relationship towards his Uncle Chuck and his Mother Grace Beaufort, but that is for another post.

I agree his feelings for Mina and Victoria are different, but that can mean more than just one being stronger than the other. There's more than one type of love. The issue is the nature of those feelings.

Killian's feeling towards Victoria seem to be familial; he sees her as a surrogate mother. More importantly, he sees her as someone who genuinely cares about him - unlike his own mother who is far more transactional. But he doesn't seem to love Victoria in a romantic sense, so I don't think he feels any conflict over his love for Victoria. That's how mother's are supposed to act, it's just that Grace is a terrible mother. Victoria being kind to him doesn't challenge his world view.

Meanwhile Ian *might* have romantic feelings for Mina; it's hard to say for sure, but let's assume he does. The problem in that case is that he's learned (mostly from Chuck, I presume) to think of romantic feelings as irrelevant hindrances that accompany the true feelings of lust. It's not that he sees Mina as a sex object because he doesn't love her enough, it's because he thinks that's what romantic love really is.

So he tries to treat Mina as nothing more than a fun lay, because that's the way it's 'supposed' to work. When Mina doesn't respond in kind, he feels guilty over it - but again, guilt is supposedly a societal construct that only holds him back. So he tries even harder to slake his lusts and make the guilt go away, which hurts Mina even more. Wash, rinse, and repeat - until Mina's finally had enough and breaks up with him.

Except... she still hasn't done so. She should be able to get better sex elsewhere, so why doesn't she? That, IMHO, is why Ian is so confused by the whole matter. Mina's behavior doesn't fit the pattern he learned from Uncle Chuck and it makes him feel bad in a way he's normally good at suppressing. Hence I see it as an opportunity to make him a better person if we can get through to him and present him with an alternative view of romantic love. But that can only happen if Mina keeps acting in a way she "shouldn't." If Mina starts an affair with the MC, she'll finally fit into his existing world view and the opportunity will be lost.

Of course, this is all just my idle speculation. Take it for what it's worth.

Darg · Jan 16, 2022

ename144 said:
Hence I see it as an opportunity to make him a better person if we can get through to him and present him with an alternative view of romantic love. But that can only happen if Mina keeps acting in a way she "shouldn't." If Mina starts an affair with the MC, she'll finally fit into his existing world view and the opportunity will be lost.

I doubt restoring his romance with Mina will be main thing that turn him from "dark side", its more of influence of Edwin (bromance points). But its strange that we cant talk about Chuck bad influence with Ian. Edwin have constant thoughts in his head but afraid to speak with Ian about that?

estrada777 · Jan 17, 2022

Updated Android port. Nothing too fancy but let me know if you have any issues.

Version: Ch4 Up4 Public + Multimod by Shawnchapp

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