VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Retromancer]

Am I the only one who didn´t cross the line with Mina? Because it seems like something that will bite you in the ass in future.
Bro aspect aside its something that might be brought up against you if you try to get into serious relationship. Or Kathrine might use the information for her schemes.

I thought about it. But then remembered I could replay the game. Your point about Kat using it against you with Hana is well taken. Hana and Rosa are my two favorite LI's in the game. Kat, the way I read her, is a dirty bitch who will do whatever it takes to accomplish her goals. Doesn't mean I dislike her character, though

 

[duiguinho6798]

Well, thank you too! When it comes to who of the Carnations needs the win the most, I agree with you it is Rosi. Who is in dire straits without being responsible for the mess she is in.
Followed by Felicia, who is in the competition for gaining personal influence, but it is obvious that she wants to use this influence to help others too. Like rebuilding the school in her hometown. As I mentioned before, a win by Felicia, if you have a good rapport/freindship with her, might be the best for all, since she could help the other Carnations with it.
Next is Veronica for reasons already stated before.
Last is Lucy for reasons likewise mentioned earlier. But I would not call her scum. While Lucy has the worst reason for participating, just gaining entrance to an elite school for her kid without a pressing need to do so, it seems the slimy school director just waited for someone he felt would be wanting access to the school so much, she fell for the competition. He might even have undervalued Lucy´s son´s grades to push her into this position. Still, even in this hypothetical case, Lucy fell for this game because of some selfish desire, which remains the weakest reason for being in the Club.

Nice point hightlighted on Felicia. Seems to be a really viable way to solve all carnations problems.

 

[ename144]

Am I the only one who didn´t cross the line with Mina? Because it seems like something that will bite you in the ass in future.
Bro aspect aside its something that might be brought up against you if you try to get into serious relationship. Or Kathrine might use the information for her schemes.

No, I turned Mina down (in my main run) because I just don't think it would be right to start anything with her under the circumstance. First, because Ian is the MC's friend, even if his treatment of Mina is appalling; helping Mina cheat on him in turn would only confirm his rationalization that he could cheat on Mina because she never really cared about him.

Second, by the same token, letting Mina seduce the MC is too likely to end with her becoming far more cynical as well. It isn't explicitly stated unless you do make a move on Mina, but she was deliberately trying to be unfaithful here. I don't think that's what Mina needs right now.

With the benefit of hindsight, I also find Mina's methodical bucket list less appealing than her cultivated innocence. So I don't regret turning her down as much as I thought I would, though I suspect I'll be in the minority on that one. It will be interesting to see what comes of both possible outcomes.

 

[Retromancer]

With the benefit of hindsight, I also find Mina's methodical bucket list less appealing than her cultivated innocence.

This is completely understandable. I disagree, but it's a reasonable way to interpret her actions. If she would have kept up her "cultivated innocence" as you call it, I would just keep finding her false and plastic. But to each their own. I have a soft spot for Mina, I actually like her as a person, I just didn't think she was very interesting before this update.

 

[Jack Dangers]

Bask in my clowncar of an opinion!

Interesting list! I like Harper too, but what’s she done to gain the top spot in your hierarchy?

JD

 

[Turret]

No, I turned Mina down (in my main run) because I just don't think it would be right to start anything with her under the circumstance. First, because Ian is the MC's friend, even if his treatment of Mina is appalling; helping Mina cheat on him in turn would only confirm his rationalization that he could cheat on Mina because she never really cared about him.

Second, by the same token, letting Mina seduce the MC is too likely to end with her becoming far more cynical as well. It isn't explicitly stated unless you do make a move on Mina, but she was deliberately trying to be unfaithful here. I don't think that's what Mina needs right now.

With the benefit of hindsight, I also find Mina's methodical bucket list less appealing than her cultivated innocence. So I don't regret turning her down as much as I thought I would, though I suspect I'll be in the minority on that one. It will be interesting to see what comes of both possible outcomes.

In my own main playthrough I turned Mina down for similar reasons as you did. Ian IS a very good friend/bro to the MC, even if his treatment of Mina is partly real shabby. Helping Mina cheat would only cement Killian´s misconception of relationships, which has been spoonfed to him by the (non-)treatment of his Mom his whole life and the unbound hedonism his mentor-uncle Chuck shows him.
When you talk with Ian, it becomes clear that he has deep feelings for Mina, which are at war with his gained view on relationships. I think we can in future updates be the catalyser for a reconciliation of Mina and Ian, if we try to be a real friend to both.

And I agree with your second point, that this planned, deliberate attempt at being unfaithful is far from what Mina really needs here. There still is a lot of "general niceness" in her and this cheating and her sexual bucket list will only serve to turn her into a similar cynic Ian is. Unless the player goes for a full-blown Mina-only relationship, I am SURE, we will/would regret being an asshole friend to Ian AND Mina here, by abusing the situation. It would bite us in the ass later.

In addition, if the player is on the Hana path, "having fun" with Mina here will backfire spectacularly some day, IMHO. Hana might be a wild child and very pragmatic about what she and the MC do at the Club, so the two will find a solution how to life with this. But to Hana family and friends are very important too. And helping Mina make a big mistake here might scramble the endgame in a big way.

 

[dolfe67]

In addition, if the player is on the Hana path, "having fun" with Mina here will backfire spectacularly some day, IMHO. Hana might be a wild child and very pragmatic about what she and the MC do at the Club, so the two will find a solution how to life with this. But to Hana family and friends are very important too. And helping Mina make a big mistake here might scramble the endgame in a big way.

I don't think so, or it would depend on the MC's toughness. With a nice MC it could lead to a 3some with them. Hana is not on an exclusive gf mindset, she knows he has sex with the carnations and she likes Mina

 

[Spamwise]

Interesting list! I like Harper too, but what’s she done to gain the top spot in your hierarchy?
JD

She's extremely cute, and never bullshits you at all. What you see is what you get. The revelation that she has a kid isn't a gut punch, it's just kind of...oh, that makes sense. 10/10 would waifu.

 

[selberdreher]

Am I the only one who didn´t cross the line with Mina?

No, I turned Mina down (in my main run) because I just don't think it would be right to start anything with her under the circumstance.

In my own main playthrough I turned Mina down for similar reasons as you did.

Kudos to you guys, you are probably better men than me. I agree, cheating and helping with her bucket list will probably do her no good, but at least she gains equal grounds with Killian by cheating, which elevates her out of the victim role. I honestly believe that Minas and Killians relationship is beyond rescue, because it never was a relationship to begin with.

When you talk with Ian, it becomes clear that he has deep feelings for Mina

Do you think so? Will Ian cry at her funeral or even attend it? Does he try to become a better man for her? Will he mourn for their relationship when she breaks up? No, at best Killian LIKES Mina, which is probably more than he felt with his other flings.
In my opinion there are exactly two people for whom Killian has deep feelings: Victoria and Edwin. This whole playboy habit he displays is to fill a void which cannot be filled, because he cant be with his true love: Victoria. I even get the feeling Ian would be relieved if Ewin takes Mina out of his hands, because he knows that he cant do her justice. The Love towards Edwin is a bit different, because i dont think he is gay or bisexual, but i think he would be delighted to share his female partners to be close to Edwin by Proxy.

Regarding Hana, did you guys knew that PC references real world movies? Check for instance "The Life of Oharu" on Wikipedia. And "Eros + Massacre", the movie Hanas band is named after, is (among other things) about free love and anarchism. Hana chose this bandname because this movies topics resonated with her own convictions. Anarchism rejects all involuntary, coercive forms of hierarchy, so as long as you treat both Mina and Hana like equal, free willed people, i think Hana wouldnt object a polyamorous throuple with Mina in it. Perhaps one of the few "good" "Harem" endings PC could offer. I put these terms in parenthesis because PC is obviously not a Dating Sim.

 

[Turret]

Kudos to you guys, you are probably better men than me. I agree, cheating and helping with her bucket list will probably do her no good, but at least she gains equal grounds with Killian by cheating, which elevates her out of the victim role. I honestly believe that Minas and Killians relationship is beyond rescue, because it never was a relationship to begin with.

Thanks, but I still make a playthrough with the MC "helping" Mina with her list, to see where this will lead. Still, in the main "canon" run I turn her down because of the friendship with BOTH Mina and Killian. I am not convinced at the current stage of the game, that the Mina-Ian relationship is unrepairable. It won´t be easy for them, especially Ian, to make the moves, but I think they have enough feelings for each other to make a recovery.

Do you think so? Will Ian cry at her funeral or even attend it? Does he try to become a better man for her? Will he mourn for their relationship when she breaks up? No, at best Killian LIKES Mina, which is probably more than he felt with his other flings.
In my opinion there are exactly two people for whom Killian has deep feelings: Victoria and Edwin. This whole playboy habit he displays is to fill a void which cannot be filled, because he cant be with his true love: Victoria. I even get the feeling Ian would be relieved if Ewin takes Mina out of his hands, because he knows that he cant do her justice. The Love towards Edwin is a bit different, because i dont think he is gay or bisexual, but i think he would be delighted to share his female partners to be close to Edwin by Proxy.

Killian´s biggest problem when it comes to relationships is how he was brought up. His Mom gave him less love than the kids she works with and rarely was she there for him when he needed it. And his mentor Uncle Chuck is a man with some sort of bipolarity disorder, who teaches him unbound hedonism.
No wonder he believes that you cannot trust a realtionship to steer through rough waters. I think, if Mina really tries to stick to the relationship and the MC being there for them, it will break through Ian´s shell. It would be the first time someone beside Edwin is there for Ian when push comes to shove.
There are enough hints here and there, e.g. during the phone calls, that for all his playboy ways, Killian does care for Mina. And I think that is great work by TD and Gil. It will depend how we play the MC, nice, perverted, corrupted or inbetween, how Ian and Mina work out. There might be an ending where Mina is as corrupted as Ian, the two being fuck buddies with Edwin. There might be an ending where Ian and Mina are really in a meaningful relationship, with a maybe slightly corrupted Mina. Maybe Edwin and Mina pull Ian out of the sinkhole the Club can potentially be for a really happy ending for the two. Or the MC is in a relationship with Mina at the end, Ian having wasted his chance with her.

Regarding Hana, did you guys knew that PC references real world movies? Check for instance "The Life of Oharu" on Wikipedia. And "Eros + Massacre", the movie Hanas band is named after, is (among other things) about free love and anarchism. Hana chose this bandname because this movies topics resonated with her own convictions. Anarchism rejects all involuntary, coercive forms of hierarchy, so as long as you treat both Mina and Hana like equal, free willed people, i think Hana wouldnt object a polyamorous throuple with Mina in it. Perhaps one of the few "good" "Harem" endings PC could offer. I put these terms in parenthesis because PC is obviously not a Dating Sim.

I think this is a clear Jein. When you play both the Mina nad Hana path to have choices which one you will later go on exclusivly, it becomes clear that while Hana can be a wild, freedom- and funloving girl and meaning it, family is very important to her. Just read her story about her grandfather or how working at the club led her to shutting down a lot of her social life. When she at that time was just a bartender wearing a bit risky clothes.
If the MC and Hana become a couple, I can surely see that they find a functioning way to cope with what they do in the Club (especially if they reform PC a bit to the better) and an occasional roll in the hay with Mina for fun, but no throuple.

 

[akiostein]

if only this game had pregnancy tags. will definitely be more beautiful. I hope there will be in the future. i love you dev. good game.

 

[Idontplay]

I don't agree.

 

[TrenciJack]

Good story-telling, the most satisfying sex scenes I've ever seen, and lots of laughs while playing. Really amazing job mate. Keep up the good work.

And the illustrator. Don't think I forgot you. Look at this thing. Is it even possible falling in love with a visual novel character?

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Interesting, don't remember seeing a tiermaker for this game before. Anyway, here is my list.


S) My favorites if/when i have to chose who to go after romantically: the "amazonian" Veronica and the "rock girl" Hana.
Plus Edwin is a mama's boy (no incest).

A) Mina, Felicia and Rosalind are good people, also i like to live dangerously (Kathleen).

B) May be good people and/or don't know enough to make up a opinion.

C) Recyclable trash. May be turned into good people in the future.

D) Radioactive waste. Throw into a concrete coffin.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

I will jump to Veronica's defense and say she might have thought it's an "easy" way out to save her business.

While your argument is not completely without merits, Building up a new business can take years, with a lot of obstacles along the way, like buying new equipment, convincing a bank to lend you money etc. after declaring bankruptcy.

She has definitely fallen for the sunken cost fallacy. But I reckon she still thinks she can save the business with another bump in finance after winning the comp. I think it's debatable, but making a running concern profitable can arguable be easier then building a complete new one. Especially with a bankruptcy to your name.

Staying on after losing ala Lucy IMO would be crazy and is also the reason I have not a lot of sympathy for Lucy. Being in a competition doing sexual challenges without any actual sex (so far) is still a step above common prostitution.

I'm honestly surprised at the flak Veronica is getting compared to Felicia. Nobody can top Rosalind in the motivation department, but Felicia's just there for shits and giggles basically. I'm not sure why people are on board with 'rich trophy wife wants to be richer and less trophy, despite choosing to be so' but Veronica being sabotaged and manipulated makes her the worst.

Couldn't agree more. I fail to see how Veronica with the bankruptcy issue looming over her business, thanks to Samson messing with it behind the lines, is the one who has the worst reasoning of the two to whore herself out, her own words, to get enough money to fix all the debts her gym has.

Felicia's husband (Elias?) is such a self centered asshole so enamored with the sound of his own voice that he didn't even realized when she was literally cumming a few paces from him. Meanwhile Felicia is a shrewd woman who choose to enter this competition to get her own network of contacts and money while doing a bit of revenge on her idiotic husband and getting some sexual fun.
Even if she has a noble goal i find really hard to believe she couldn't find another method to get her own funds while married with that moron.

 

[Jhonthedon420]

Good game

 

[UncleFredo]

First of all thank you so much for this update! A tremendous amount of content with a lot of quality technically and in the plot development and writing. Quite a bit of character development too. I really enjoyed playing this one. The hints of darkness at the conclusion certainly gets the imagination working overtime.

All in all an excellent update to what is proving an excellent VN. Thank you again for all your hard work. I'll be impatiently awaiting your next update.

 

[selberdreher]

Hey Guys, here are my Tiers for our lovely PC Female Cast. I had to do two of them, the first being sexual Attraction towards the Women and the second is Attraction to their Personality, and as you can see they differ quite a bit.


Sexual Attraction


S-Tier: Hotter than a Supernova: both are near perfection
A-Tier: UltraHot: Mina is a tiny bit to skinny to be S-Tier, and Lucy just cannot compete with the sex-goddesses in S-Tier
B-Tier: SuperHot: if A-Tier wasnt already taken they would be in there, especially Hana and Dalia
C-Tier: Very Hot, but with some Flaws: Veronica is too muscular for my taste and Kathleen a Tad too Old
D-Tier: Not interested: the Looser Tier, i dont like Harpers Tattoos, her Haircut and her Face


Attraction to Personality


S-Tier: what is not to like? Victoria is strong, funny, smart, a fighter, loving and caring. Any Flaws? I dont see them
A-Tier: i like them all very much, everyone for different reasons, but sorry girls: S-Tier is already taken
B-Tier: we dont know much about Dalia, but it seems that she cares for her housegirls, which is a good trait.
C-Tier: Harper and Pink Girl are neutral, no likes, no dislikes; Lucy and Ms.Beaufort belong in D, they have obvious flaws
D-Tier: Lucy and Ms Beaufort, but D-Tier is already taken and both are by far not as bad as Kathleen
F-Tier: Kathleen, does she have any redeeming personality traits? i would have to search very hard to find them.

So the Overall Attraction Chart would look like:

Spoiler

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[Turret]

Couldn't agree more. I fail to see how Veronica with the bankruptcy issue looming over her business, thanks to Samson messing with it behind the lines, is the one who has the worst reasoning of the two to whore herself out, her own words, to get enough money to fix all the debts her gym has.

Felicia's husband (Elias?) is such a self centered asshole so enamored with the sound of his own voice that he didn't even realized when she was literally cumming a few paces from him. Meanwhile Felicia is a shrewd woman who choose to enter this competition to get her own network of contacts and money while doing a bit of revenge on her idiotic husband and getting some sexual fun.
Even if she has a noble goal i find really hard to believe she couldn't find another method to get her own funds while married with that moron.

I see your point about Veronica and would agree with you, if not for two things during the photo shot in her gym. These two things led me to my opinion that beside Lucy, Vera has the weakest reason to let Kathleen trample over her for a month.
Veronica is no dummy and has her suspicions about Sam, but in her own words, she thinks that this asshole just used a chance he saw. We as the MC know or believe we know, since Sam might have exaggerated his contribution to Vera´s woes, that Sam did something more to push her towards the Club than Veronica suspects.
But it is the second thing which convinced me of her comparatively "weak" reason to be a Carnation. After the photo shot, you can get a scene where the MC and Veronica talk about several things. During that talk it becomes obvious that Veronica knows(!), but seems to maybe out of stubborness not change course, that even a win in the Competition is nothing more than a temporary band-aid. The overhang she has with the gym and it´s surrounding arrangements is simply too much!
But since it was the Gym of her old trainer she got from him, Vera wants to save it at all costs. I really like that Veronica wants to live and fight for her dream, but this is too much. Her old trainer is dead and if he cared for her as much as Vera insinuated he would never want her to compete in Kath´s freak show just for the gym.
Veronica has the choice to get rid of the Gym before she finally sinks and start over with another Gym, one not such an enormous drain on the ressources for a single owner. She could live her dream without the PC Club.

This thing, together with Vera knowing that even a win is just a temporary relief, is what made me rank her reason for being a Carnation as weak. Rosi has simply no choice, criminals are onto her and a win will get them of her back forever. Considering the Carnations mingle with the Club members quite a bit during this month, Felicia might gain the connections she needs even without winning, but a win will give her quite some powerful connections and influence. Both will have substantial gains if they win and might even get a bit of help if they lose.(Depending on how we play the MC and if Edwin can nudge other characters to help)
But Veronica knows that a win for her in the competition is not really one, just a pause, a temporary relief. After the money from the PC Club runs out, if she would win, what then? As far as we know, Veronica is in dire straits, but has not sunk yet and the option to sell the gym before she is finally bankrupt. It is late, but not too late for her, to get out of the situation without taking part in the "Carnation games".

 

[selberdreher]

Okey, so we (all) agree that Rosie has the strongest reason and is the most deserving to win the competition. Period.

Patching a sinking ship to buy some time, untill perhaps rescue service arrives, is not the most unreasonable thing to do, especially after there are no lifeboats left. Veronicas problem is, that she has severely underestimated the price for patching her ship. She was under the impression that all it takes, is to do "just sexwork" and that it is "fast and easy". She depleted already other "good and easy" and "good and fast" options. So she had very few choices left.

Felicia on the other hand was not as limited in her options, being a well connected High-Society Lady, who is aquainted with lots of rich and influential people already. She had the prospects to network in e.g. charity work or the art community in the city or at the country club or other circles rich upper-class women have access to. But she chose deliberately the most questionable and risky option. I cant help to feel like the "shits and giggles and fun" (i love Felicia for her shits and giggles btw) played the biggest part in that choice, and this makes her choice and motivation a comparatively weak one.

Turrets` idea of "perhaps the best outcome for all three carnations is, if Felicia wins" is an interesting and valid one. Depending on ourEdwins guidance of the carnations, so that they perhaps become friends, i can see Felicia investing in Veronicas Gym and do some marketing for her to help her get back on her feet.
Rosies problem should be an easy fix, i always thought her 23.000$ debt is a relatively small one (i am not a rich guy, but to me it feels like the debt should be at least three times higher to be really concerning).
I just googled luxury handbags and found a 20.000€ Gucci one as first hit. Ian is willing to pay 5.000$ for a threesome with Edwin and Rosie. So with suitable friends, helping Rosie out should be a minor issue.
It really gives us a good impression how hard Rosie is struggling as a de-facto single mother.