VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Alfius]

Hm, first of all i dont want to disrespect your view on Warren, if he is disturbing to you, you are perfectly entitled to feel this way.
However, and i hate to defend Warren, because he is definitely a big asshole, i dont see him as that disturbing or as a serial killer.

i see Warren as a typical Alpha Male with the added flaw of being obviously violent. He has zero concern about the wellbeing or consent of his counterpart, which would probably place him more in the rapist category (which is ofc disturbing enough tbh).
Warren takes the girls whenever and how(ever?) it pleases him, and he likes to be rough. i can totally see him to smack the girls, if they displease him, but he doesnt get an extra kick out of it. Hurting or damaging girls isnt his primary goal, it is just a byproduct, if they cant handle him. We have seen him once in a sex scene, and it was pretty vanilla for the carnation clubs standards.
Dalia mentioned a girl who couldnt work for a whole day after being with him. This is a rather short recovery period, which i would associate more with injuries like bruises, but without bigger swellings, or a slightly torn asshole and/or vagina.

Speaking of disturbing: experiments on human beings are in my opinion not simply disturbing anymore, they are plain evil.

So, yeah, i think the infamous three Abel, Sophia and Kathleen outdo easily any other villain in this game at the moment.

I 100% see your point, BUT

IMO Fucking up a girl so that she can not have sex for a day is bad enough. (Not the worst I will agree)
It's not only the way he had sex with the girls but also his attitude towards them. Het takes pleasure in their misery (Remember the chat you had with him in the Security room.) He has no empathy for any of them, but still pleasures himself with any of them he sees fit to use them. (I'm sure it's a perk of the job) I doubt he's the type of person that will ever seek consent before sex if he could get away with it.

I also speculate that the only reason the girl is out of action for a day and not more is precisely because she needs to perform at the club.

I will agree that he has not done anything outrageously terrible so far, but his complete lack of empathy for pretty much anyone, but especially the girls are telling.

In terms of Abel, maybe. We do not know how bad the things he is doing are at this stage. But as a scientist, I think you sometimes think about the bigger goal and sees your guinea pigs as collateral damage. (Ends justified he means type of thing).
Like experiments on mice, rabbits etc. Once again, we are not sure how bad the lab work are, so a bit early to tell.

 

[selberdreher]

Tendencies maybe....
(...)
MC is not a patch on pretty much 80% of the other men in the story.

i agree with you very much on this one, Alfius. Edwin is indeed by far not as bad as the other scumbags in this game, at least not yet... and it was not my intention to portray Edwin as a psycho, but our boy has some issues he does (or does not) need to address, we do that for him as we play the game.

Lets remember the intro:
"If i had to describe myself (...) i would answer (...) I´m a good and decent person. (...) I like to consider myself a good and decent person, but (...) Truth is, you simply can´t take stock of a man´s character who lives in an immutable bubble. I have simply never been given the opportunity to prove my conceited self-image right or wrong."

i think at its core Pale Carnation is a corruption game (duh!), but unlike most other Games, this one is about a male MC, and we decide this time, if and how far he will fall and if and how far he will drag down others with him.
(i am excited and scared for Mina on this one, i think i need two playthroughs with her, just to redeem myself.)
Depending on our choices and given his (selected) Background (Traits) we may discover that Edwin is not "a good and decent person" at all and may be very well outdo "pretty much 80% of the other men in the story".

 

[Maverick369]

Absolutely agree with you. Every one thought that my questions about victoria was because I wanted to see her have sex with her son. That was never really the case I was trying to figure out what events would have to occur to make edwin go to the extreme darkside that I know he has in him. Again his mom is a weak point and kathlean is very much aware of that. In my opinion Edwin is probably going to be involved in the drug production/research which means Kathlean and Sydney are going to have to have complete trust in Edwin for that to happen. I wonder if this update coming up will show us the valut

 

[Maverick369]

Although I still believe something very lewd and coruppting in nature happening to his mom with either him participating or watching is going to happen. I believe it is the only thing powerful enough to fllp the switch.

 

[Alfius]

i agree with you very much on this one, Alfius. Edwin is indeed by far not as bad as the other scumbags in this game, at least not yet... and it was not my intention to portray Edwin as a psycho, but our boy has some issues he does (or does not) need to address, we do that for him as we play the game.

Lets remember the intro:
"If i had to describe myself (...) i would answer (...) I´m a good and decent person. (...) I like to consider myself a good and decent person, but (...) Truth is, you simply can´t take stock of a man´s character who lives in an immutable bubble. I have simply never been given the opportunity to prove my conceited self-image right or wrong."

i think at its core Pale Carnation is a corruption game (duh!), but unlike most other Games, this one is about a male MC, and we decide this time, if and how far he will fall and if and how far he will drag down others with him.
(i am excited and scared for Mina on this one, i think i need two playthroughs with her, just to redeem myself.)
Depending on our choices and given his (selected) Background (Traits) we may discover that Edwin is not "a good and decent person" at all and may be very well outdo "pretty much 80% of the other men in the story".

So here is my point on this:

The MC is aware of all of this. Him getting corrupted is just that. He knows what he's doing is questionable (and in future maybe downright horrible), but at least he's aware. He has built in sympathy for victims that his darker desires are maybe overriding. (Like a fight between good and evil, that evil might be winning)

With Warren, I get the feeling that there is no empathy at all. For him it's nothing to really hurt a girl (or even kill her). No remorse, no guilt. The only reason he is not doing it is that it would be against his own self interest. That is all that's holding him back.

One of the definitions of psychopath is a total lack of empathy. (Think "Ivar the Boneless" from the Vikings TV series, that killed another kid when he was 6 year old and not feeling remorse. Or boys mutilating cats when they are very young and thinking nothing of it.) It's not the act of killing or hurting someone that's unique to psychopaths. It's the total lack of any empathy while they are doing it and lack of remorse after.

Back to Pale Carnations, none of the other characters, except Warren portrays that total lack of empathy. Plenty of them does terrible things to girls, but you get the feeling that they have to supress, overcome a part of them to be able to do that. The other people also express empathy to at least people they value or like. (For instance Chuck to Edwin and Killian)

 

[selberdreher]

i am doing at the moment a rerun of PC, and try to have a closer look on the "flavor" texts between the juicy scenes to get more profound info about the characters. i think i already found some interesting stuff, which i will share later with you guys to countercheck.
But i am still a bit baffled about your (Alfius) lenient stance on Abel & Co. Treating Human Beings as Guinea Pigs and experimenting on them shows also a severe lack of empathy in my opinion.
Underdeveloped empathy for prostitutes however sounds like a necessary job requirement for everyone engaged in the pimp business. Just look at August in this regard: he orders Dalia to get a girl (Kimber) ready for work again -although she has the flu- by suggesting to have Warren to look after her (it is the scene when Edwin gets money for his work uniform).
Warren was hired clearly to do the dirty jobs and it wouldnt surprise me if he was involved with the disappearance of Darius.
A lot about him is still highly speculative, but even a Mafia Killer can love his family. Cruelty is not exclusive to Psychopaths.
When we look into Warrens ingame Profile we see that he enjoys cooking and watching boxing matches, so as far as we take this into consideration, it is possible that he enjoys the boxing bouts with a bunch of friends and some home-made chicken wings in his free time.
In case Alfius`hunch is accurate he could very well enjoy the matches having a tasty "liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti" , while Darius has found a semi-permanent residence in his fridge and freezer. We cannot rule this out yet.

 

[fetishgirl]

Oooohhh!! Nice lists.

So mine is as follows: In brackets is movement since last update.
Possible romance with the MC does play a role on my list.
Female Cast
========
1) Mina (+1)

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2) Hanna (-1)

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3) Felicia (+2)

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4) Veronica (-)

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5) Rosalind (-2)

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6) Harper (-)

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7) Harper (-)

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8) Kathleen (-)

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9) Lucy (-)

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10) Sophia(-)

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Male Cast I will sub-divide in 3 sections (Good, In between, bad) and rate accordingly
=================================
Good
===
1) Jacob(-)

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2) Spider(-)

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In between
=======
3) Edwin (My playthrough)

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4) Killian

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Bad
===
5) August (+1)

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6) Abel(+1)

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7) Chuck(-2)

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8) Samson (-)

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9) Isaak (-)

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10) Warren(-)

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Very detailed and to the point love the structure to your list and it makes me wonder if I rambled too much in mine. I look forward to Turret 's in depth list later.

You brought up good points and it does make me wonder if I am being too generous to Kathleen. It's just a certain scene in the latest update made me believe she can actually be reasoned with and its possible that Kathleen is just a possible future outcome of what Felicia could become. I think that is what makes her intriguing and I think that what she truly wants is some respect. Despite being very attractive for an older woman she is the only one of the 3 who is constantly degraded for their looks which reminds of what Felicia is doing. Well we will see and if Chuck has done what I think he has he will be far worse than both August and Kathleen.

 

[Jack Dangers]

This game is really starting to give me mixed feelings. On one hand, the writing and characters are fantastic. And yet, I can't help but feel like I'm being dommed an awful lot for a game in which I thought I was supposed to do the domming.

Anyone else feel the same? I guess it could just be me.

JD

 

[Alfius]

Very detailed and to the point love the structure to your list and it makes me wonder if I rambled too much in mine. I look forward to Turret 's in depth list later.

You brought up good points and it does make me wonder if I am being too generous to Kathleen. It's just a certain scene in the latest update made me believe she can actually be reasoned with and its possible that Kathleen is just a possible future outcome of what Felicia could become. I think that is what makes her intriguing and I think that what she truly wants is some respect. Despite being very attractive for an older woman she is the only one of the 3 who is constantly degraded for their looks which reminds of what Felicia is doing. Well we will see and if Chuck has done what I think he has he will be far worse than both August and Kathleen.

Pretty much agree with most of this. Felicia for me has a softer heart then Kathleen, but apart from that, I pretty much agree with your thinking.

 

[dolfe67]

This game is really starting to give me mixed feelings. On one hand, the writing and characters are fantastic. And yet, I can't help but feel like I'm being dommed an awful lot for a game in which I thought I was supposed to do the domming.

Anyone else feel the same? I guess it could just be me.

JD

Can you give specific examples? If you're dommed it's your decisions. Except maybe the first exhibition with Veronica

 

[felyp3]

The writing is so good, is there a game here with at least half the quality?
Felicia's scene from the last update is the best scene I've seen in all the erogames I've played.

 

[SunsetChaser]

The writing is so good, is there a game here with at least half the quality?
Felicia's scene from the last update is the best scene I've seen in all the erogames I've played.

i have yet to find it. even the sex scenes are fantastically written. this dev raises the bar on the genre

 

[Turret]

look forward to @Turret 's in depth list later.

Vielen Dank für die Blumen!(Thank you much for the flowers, I doubt the translation get´s the meaning across right)I hope my list does not disappoint you! My list ranking includes personality traits, relationship options and how the persons reacted in the game for where they ended up on the list. First are the girls, the guys come in the coming days, had a full weekend.

1) Hana/Felicia
2) Mina
3) Rosalind
4) Kathleen
5) Veronica/Victoria(her being more plot device, so "just" honourable mentioned)
6) Sophia
7) Lucy
8) Dalia
9) Harper
10) Jerrika

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[Jack Dangers]

Hey, dolfe67

Can you give specific examples? If you're dommed it's your decisions. Except maybe the first exhibition with Veronica

So, since I posted my comment, I’ve finished playing through the entire content of the game. The portions of the game I hadn’t reached addressed some (but not all, by far) of my concerns. Still, I wanted to explain what I meant in my initial post.

From the point where I read this game’s description through the character creation process, my expectation of the experience was that I was going to be able to shape the MC by virtue of my choices, either making him a reasonable guy wrestling with his dark desires or a completely amoral, sadistic creature. I liked the sound of having that kind of agency; it’s far different than the “choices” offered by most games.

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The problem may have nothing to do with the game, though. Instead, it might have everything to do with me and my initial expectations of PC, going into it. That’s why I framed the question in my initial post the way that I did.

In closing, I want to make it clear that I think this game is probably the best on all of F95 (in my experience, anyway). I have issues with it, yes…but that doesn’t take away from its amazingly well-crafted story and the fantastic character art it contains. It’s my intention to back this on Patreon tonight, in fact, as well as write a positive review of the game and join in the fun of ranking my favorite characters in this thread.

Essentially…I’m extremely frustrated by certain parts of the story. That doesn’t necessarily prevent it from being amazing, though.

JD

 

[Jack Dangers]

As promised, my rankings of the PC female cast, from best to worst (IMHO):



Notes:

- Veronica would have been an S, but…see my post above about my mixed feelings on that character.

- I absolutely cannot wait to do terrible, terrible things to Ian’s mom.

- Of all the popular girls, I’m kind of “meh” about Hana. She’s cool…but she just honestly doesn’t really do much for me.

- Lucy…you really should have chosen MC over Ian.

Not pictured:

Sofia is a Tier B (just above Hana) for me. Something sexy about her, though I need to interact with her more to get a real feel for her character.

Ian’s Nanny is a low Tier A for me. I’m really hoping I get a crack at…well, her crack.

 

[DeedleConcord]

Who is the pink haired chick? I either don't remember or never ran into her.

 

[HSHS1111]

Who is the pink haired chick? I either don't remember or never ran into her.

Hana's bandmate. Can't remember the name atm.

 

[ename144]

Who is the pink haired chick? I either don't remember or never ran into her.

Jerrica, Hana's bandmate and friend. She's mentioned a couple times, but only shows up (so far) if you go to see Hana's band in Week 1.

 

[munstre]

This game is really starting to give me mixed feelings. On one hand, the writing and characters are fantastic. And yet, I can't help but feel like I'm being dommed an awful lot for a game in which I thought I was supposed to do the domming.

Anyone else feel the same? I guess it could just be me.

JD

I feel like even in the scenes where the player character was initially in a submissive position due to power or status disparity, it still felt like he dominated the sex scene. It's got a lot to do with how you approach the situation. If you wanna play it off all lovey-dovey and be like "you tell me what you like" the girls will opt for their own approaches. You've gotta listen to that inner voice that wants to ravage, throw caution to the wind and fuck 'em silly.

Although, I suppose it also depends on where your definition of domination lies. If you're looking for bondage and similar more specific kink/fetish things that play on the removal of your partner's agency, then the carnation events should fill some of that void while the individual events in between tend to follow a more realistic path. You don't just go straight to bondage on your first date. And to be honest, personally, that all seems a little fake to me anyway. The fetish shit seems like something you'd do with a long time partner when your sex life got too boring otherwise. I see true domination in the act of taking what you want for yourself and I love how this game goes about realizing that. It doesn't meddle in extremes like your usual japanese eroge where you either take the vanilla lovey-dovey path or the pretty much rape path. It's stuck in the middle (with you) and gives you ground to make your own choice which way you want the scale to tip. Be pampered and taken care of or have them melt in your unrestrained, sadistic hands - as far as I've seen, it's mostly up to you.

While the carnation events are great and it's really satisfying to let go of the inhibitions and make the girls squirm, I find that the game really shines in the off-events where the MC gets to know the girls. The things they themselves let you do afterwards feel much more rewarding. The strands of power you manage to grasp in those situations, when they have full autonomy and still willingly surrender to your machinations are the sweetest.

That said, I'm not gonna lie, I sometimes went for a milder approach to score more affection points instead of the one my heart desired (pic related). It's not bad though, I connected with the MC and the story through holding back in a few of these situations and the fact that the characters have specific preferences in different situations made them feel more real as well.

 

[DeedleConcord]

Jerrica, Hana's bandmate and friend. She's mentioned a couple times, but only shows up (so far) if you go to see Hana's band in Week 1.

Ahh, yes, thanks. I (vaguely) remember her now. Edit: Oh, and thanks HSHS1111 as well.