VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[ename144]

All I can say is THANK YOU. I've argued this point before with certain people in this community, who don't seem to understand this. Veronica is the least sympathetic of the Carnations for this reason - other than Lucy, as you also pointed out, but I guess she's half a Carnation?

I think it depends on what you mean by sympathetic. I'm very sympathetic to Veronica, because I think she's awesome. But that doesn't mean I want her to win the competition, because while I don't find Rosalind especially interesting, her need is far more pressing.

I'd much rather try to help Veronica in some ways outside the Exhibition, even if that means letting her current business fail.

 

[Retromancer]

I think it depends on what you mean by sympathetic. I'm very sympathetic to Veronica, because I think she's awesome. But that doesn't mean I want her to win the competition, because while I don't find Rosalind especially interesting, her need is far more pressing.

I'd much rather try to help Veronica in some ways outside the Exhibition, even if that means letting her current business fail.

By sympathetic, I mean "who is least deserving to be here". By any metric, the list is Rosalind, Veronica, Lucy. Felicia can be thrown in where the individual player feels like in between Veronica. Not above Rosalind, because her situation is terrible, not below Lucy because she is actual scum. Your opinion may vary.

This being said, I don't feel much sympathy for Veronica. I don't feel that way because she's tall, or muscled, or red-headed or whatever. She's just dumb and prideful. But basically, just dumb. She's the Himbo of the story. But GIL and TD can change my mind. They did it with Mina last update. So I'll keep an open mind but her reason for being a Carnation is just so weak.

 

[Turret]

All I can say is THANK YOU. I've argued this point before with certain people in this community, who don't seem to understand this. Veronica is the least sympathetic of the Carnations for this reason - other than Lucy, as you also pointed out, but I guess she's half a Carnation?

Well, thank you too! When it comes to who of the Carnations needs the win the most, I agree with you it is Rosi. Who is in dire straits without being responsible for the mess she is in.
Followed by Felicia, who is in the competition for gaining personal influence, but it is obvious that she wants to use this influence to help others too. Like rebuilding the school in her hometown. As I mentioned before, a win by Felicia, if you have a good rapport/freindship with her, might be the best for all, since she could help the other Carnations with it.
Next is Veronica for reasons already stated before.
Last is Lucy for reasons likewise mentioned earlier. But I would not call her scum. While Lucy has the worst reason for participating, just gaining entrance to an elite school for her kid without a pressing need to do so, it seems the slimy school director just waited for someone he felt would be wanting access to the school so much, she fell for the competition. He might even have undervalued Lucy´s son´s grades to push her into this position. Still, even in this hypothetical case, Lucy fell for this game because of some selfish desire, which remains the weakest reason for being in the Club.

 

[Retromancer]

I'll make a case how Veronica could be more empathetic. Let's say she had people in her gym who have been injured - and let's also say she has access to a doctor who isn't ethical. And so what Veronica is doing is giving out illegal steroids to people who have had injuries, in an effort to help them heal.

Now, really, her shady doctor is at fault - but she's the cutout. So the asshole actor (I forget his name) exposes the whole thing but covers the doctor's ass. Now Veronica is in serious legal trouble and needs an attorney but can't afford one, because of her bad business decisions. So the club (and the asshole actor) will make this all go away if she participates in the club. Voila, she's more likeable and doesn't seem as stupid.

 

[Retromancer]

Last is Lucy for reasons likewise mentioned earlier. But I would not call her scum. While Lucy has the worst reason for participating, just gaining entrance to an elite school for her kid without a pressing need to do so, it seems the slimy school director just waited for someone he felt would be wanting access to the school so much, she fell for the competition. He might even have undervalued Lucy´s son´s grades to push her into this position. Still, even in this hypothetical case, Lucy fell for this game because of some selfish desire, which remains the weakest reason for being in the Club.

I'm sorry, friend, I just can't agree with this. You've admitted you live in Germany while I live in the US. The outrage expressed at the fairly recent college scandal that had a bunch of rich American parents go to jail was widespread and cut across political lines. If he was so good he could get into that school then why not one down the road, or in the next county or in the next state. No, she's scum.

 

[fetishgirl]

All I can say is THANK YOU. I've argued this point before with certain people in this community, who don't seem to understand this. Veronica is the least sympathetic of the Carnations for this reason - other than Lucy, as you also pointed out, but I guess she's half a Carnation?

Just a quick response to this and your later post. You make great points and to anyone unsure I think those of us who have made tier lists can agree that this is our current rankings up to this point in the latest update. They are subject to change. The devs have made my top 5 constantly switch around. Its one of the reasons I am kind of hoping they may reconsider a harem route as last time I checked that option wasn't on the table.

Turret

Fantastic points I really appreciate you taking the time to do a deep dive into each character it was a fantastic read and while my order isn't the same I can't disagree with anything you said.

Jack Dangers

Great tier list is it still up on the website. Sometimes its more appealing to have something visual rather than a wall of text.

On a seperate issue I will explain why Kathleen and Van Doren don't rank as high on the list of the morally bankrupt (evil). As there seems to be a debate around which character is the most atrocious. I will put in spoilers to play it safe and bare in mind this is just my own personal theory based on the story so far I could be completely wrong.

Spoiler: My theory regarding Chuck

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Basically that is how I see it at this current point in the game I might have overlooked things or did too much over thinking in some parts of the plot, but we will have to wait and see where it goes. I for sure can't wait until the next update.

 

[Turret]

I'm sorry, friend, I just can't agree with this. You've admitted you live in Germany while I live in the US. The outrage expressed at the fairly recent college scandal that had a bunch of rich American parents go to jail was widespread and cut across political lines. If he was so good he could get into that school then why not one down the road, or in the next county or in the next state. No, she's scum.

I think we differ in our opinion by just a small degree and translation effects how scum comes out in German. I fired up a save of PC and flew over it. It seems that Lucy´s kid has good enough grades (and "Mr. Education Slimeball" seems to have undervalued them a bit to pressure Lucy) to be accepted in a really good school, just not HER own old school. Lucy now falling for his spiel (why is Spiel used that way in English? Definitely a "false Friend") is all her desire and partly greed.
It is a major dick move to try to gain access this way by Lucy instead of sending her son to a slightly worse school in town or an equal one to her old alma mater in the neighbouring district. But I think Lucy now starts to see where her pride and selfish desire led her to. As said, I see Lucy as a darker mirror image of Rosi and a warning sign of what could happen to her.
Lucy was pulled in by Kath and her entourage by nudging her baser instincts and maternal desires despite having a choice - and Lucy fell.

 

[MK.135]

seems good but the android control's abit akward for me.

 

[Jack Dangers]

Jack Dangers

Great tier list is it still up on the website. Sometimes its more appealing to have something visual rather than a wall of text.
[/QUOTE]

Sure is, fetishgirl. It's missing some notable characters, but...enjoy!

You must be registered to see the links

JD

 

[Alfius]

All I can say is THANK YOU. I've argued this point before with certain people in this community, who don't seem to understand this. Veronica is the least sympathetic of the Carnations for this reason - other than Lucy, as you also pointed out, but I guess she's half a Carnation?

I will jump to Veronica's defense and say she might have thought it's an "easy" way out to save her business.

While your argument is not completely without merits, Building up a new business can take years, with a lot of obstacles along the way, like buying new equipment, convincing a bank to lend you money etc. after declaring bankruptcy.

She has definitely fallen for the sunken cost fallacy. But I reckon she still thinks she can save the business with another bump in finance after winning the comp. I think it's debatable, but making a running concern profitable can arguable be easier then building a complete new one. Especially with a bankruptcy to your name.

Staying on after losing ala Lucy IMO would be crazy and is also the reason I have not a lot of sympathy for Lucy. Being in a competition doing sexual challenges without any actual sex (so far) is still a step above common prostitution.

 

[Blaq Mask]

I'm honestly surprised at the flak Veronica is getting compared to Felicia. Nobody can top Rosalind in the motivation department, but Felicia's just there for shits and giggles basically. I'm not sure why people are on board with 'rich trophy wife wants to be richer and less trophy, despite choosing to be so' but Veronica being sabotaged and manipulated makes her the worst.

 

[Turret]

I'm honestly surprised at the flak Veronica is getting compared to Felicia. Nobody can top Rosalind in the motivation department, but Felicia's just there for shits and giggles basically. I'm not sure why people are on board with 'rich trophy wife wants to be richer and less trophy, despite choosing to be so' but Veronica being sabotaged and manipulated makes her the worst.

Well, I don´t know if you red my spoilered ranking list of the girls a couple posts above or played the Felicia path, but I think you did not considering your argumentation. Let us just say if you get to know Feli a bit better, you´ll see that there is more to her participation than just "shits and giggles". Said shits and giggles are a hot and nice byproduct for Felicia, but not the main reason for her being a carnation. There is more to her true goals than just becoming richer and having wild sex while gaining it, Felicia is just eccentric in how she tries to reach said end goals.
I ,for one, still like Veronica too, but it is a simple fact that if you watch some information closely, Veronica´s reason for being a Carnation is just third-best, if better than Lucy´s attempted self-image wank by getting her son into the same school she went when she has a choice (to send him to another prestigious school, it seems he has actually good grades).

 

[Tserriednich'sNen]

I'm honestly surprised at the flak Veronica is getting compared to Felicia. Nobody can top Rosalind in the motivation department, but Felicia's just there for shits and giggles basically. I'm not sure why people are on board with 'rich trophy wife wants to be richer and less trophy, despite choosing to be so' but Veronica being sabotaged and manipulated makes her the worst.

Felicia and Veronica's reasoning for partaking in the carnation games compared to Rosalind is border lining on laughable imo. While what happened to Veronica is pretty shitty and unfortunate she can still choose to not partake and move on. Rosalind has to cough up a large amount of money that she doesn't have while caring for her child in order save herself and said child, and while you factor in the reason for her predicament being due to her husband who essentially deserted her it isn't surprising to see why she's so determined and desperate to win.

 

[Retromancer]

I'm honestly surprised at the flak Veronica is getting compared to Felicia. Nobody can top Rosalind in the motivation department, but Felicia's just there for shits and giggles basically. I'm not sure why people are on board with 'rich trophy wife wants to be richer and less trophy, despite choosing to be so' but Veronica being sabotaged and manipulated makes her the worst.

I think the reason Veronica gets more flak is that people have argued on here that she was "forced" into it, kinda like Rosa. She was patently not. I, myself, think that Veronica is slightly more sympathetic than Felicia (and by sympathetic, I mean did they have a choice in the matter?) I just look at them like Harper and Dalia - from what we know, they're just sex workers, which is fine if they made that choice but it's their choice. Rosalind is in an awful situation, and Lucy is there because she made a slimy deal

There may be more coming about Harper and Dalia's backgrounds. And if they were forced I'll feel sorry for them. Veronica and Felicia? Not so much. Lucy? Not at all.

 

[Spamwise]

Sure is, fetishgirl. It's missing some notable characters, but...enjoy!

You must be registered to see the links

JD

Bask in my clowncar of an opinion!

 

[Retromancer]

Bask in my clowncar of an opinion!

Well, you didn't lie. It is a clowncar

 

[ename144]

Eh, seems like fun. Here's my attempt to rank the characters (as of Chapter 3, Update 3).

It's tough to sort them all, especially characters like Dalia that haven't had much opportunity to develop. And I tried to stick with how much I like the character, not how much I sympathize with them or how interesting I find them within the story, though obviously there's always a little overlap.

 

[Unreal434]

Am I the only one who didn´t cross the line with Mina? Because it seems like something that will bite you in the ass in future.
Bro aspect aside its something that might be brought up against you if you try to get into serious relationship. Or Kathrine might use the information for her schemes.

 

[Spamwise]

Am I the only one who didn´t cross the line with Mina? Because it seems like something that will bite you in the ass in future.
Bro aspect aside its something that might be brought up against you if you try to get into serious relationship. Or Kathrine might use the information for her schemes.

Killian instructed me to make sure she had fun. I made sure she had fun.

 

[Retromancer]

Am I the only one who didn´t cross the line with Mina? Because it seems like something that will bite you in the ass in future.
Bro aspect aside its something that might be brought up against you if you try to get into serious relationship. Or Kathrine might use the information for her schemes.

I thought about it. But then remembered I could replay the game. Your point about Kat using it against you with Hana is well taken. Hana and Rosa are my two favorite LI's in the game. Kat, the way I read her, is a dirty bitch who will do whatever it takes to accomplish her goals. Doesn't mean I dislike her character, though