VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

4.90 star(s) 477 Votes
Discussion Reviews (477)
MartinKrpan

MartinKrpan

Newbie
May 15, 2020
97
204
I like this game because of the choices that are available. The more, the merrier just because this makes it more personal to me. And by that I don't mean faster/slower/change angle and cum. But actual choices that have or will have consequences.
 
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Gavin Ray

Gavin Ray

Newbie
Oct 24, 2021
40
171
To chime in another opinion about release frequency and story path complexity... I never even considered the fact that several years of development can have a detrimental effect on not only the players patience to hang around/keep supporting the project, but also the developers patience with the project itself. I'm not a huge creative myself, being more into the technical side of things, but I can appreciate the fact that working on a single project for 3+ years can be very mentally taxing, creatively. (Even though both Gil and TD remain confident in their attitude towards satisfactorily finishing the project)

While I appreciate the varied path options within PC, from an MC choice perspective, I also understand that each branch adds complexity (and thus time) to the overall development process. I agree with the sentiment that the detailed control over the destiny of the MC is one of the aspects that makes PC so amazing as a VN. However, I also don't replay the entire game each time a new update drops, nor do I have a half-dozen different save files on different paths/choices. This is of course a personal opinion, but I don't tend to grade VNs on their replayability. This might be because most A-tier VNs haven't yet "finished", narratively. I tend to play my MCs with an singular sequential strategy, and not stray from that linear strategy until I reach the end of the story (at which point I might replay the entire game using a different strategy). This style of consuming content tends to keep my MC perspective more focused and organized in how I experience the narrative and character arcs, instead of having all the unique pathways forming a jumbled mess in my head. eg. was I fucking this chick in this save? or was that my other save? do I have a save for that? etc. You'd almost need a damn spreadsheet to keep it all straight, as a player.

Im sure that I will be called lazy for this, but sometimes it can be a bit demoralizing as a player to read posts by others, in which they outline all the different saves they maintain and how each was progressed following every update. Naturally, I don't fault these players for this type of play style, but I also believe that a player shouldn't feel penalized in their experience because they chose to focus on one character over another, and not constantly maintain several different playstyle arcs. Perhaps this is just the inherent nature of the VN medium though... I think my own experiential view on VNs is more comparable to the idea that they should be customizable movies, rather than explicit video games (with 5 different unique paths/endings). I dunno, maybe this is what people love so much about VNs over more traditional forms of media...

All that being said, if given the choice between 1) ultra complex branching pathways and granular control over every MC decision OR 2) 3+ releases per year with less MC decision points (but still containing that guaranteed quality that TD and Gil exemplify :))...I'm going to pick the higher release frequency, every time.

All thanks and credit to TD and Gil! Looking forward to Ch4Up2!
 
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TD1900

TD1900

#701
Game Developer
Dec 8, 2017
748
6,601
Gavin Ray said:
Im sure that I will be called lazy for this, but sometimes it can be a bit demoralizing as a player to read posts by others, in which they outline all the different saves they maintain and how each was progressed following every update. Naturally, I don't fault these players for this type of play style, but I also believe that a player shouldn't feel penalized in their experience because they chose to focus on one character over another, and not constantly maintain several different playstyle arcs. Perhaps this is just the inherent nature of the VN medium though... I think my own experiential view on VNs is more comparable to the idea that they should be customizable movies, rather than explicit video games (with 5 different unique paths/endings). I dunno, maybe this is what people love so much about VNs over more traditional forms of media...
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Yeah, that's a whole other question of design that the update-by-update model makes turns into a consideration. If you have a Hana update, people who don't like Hana are fucked. Ideally updates would be designed in a way that people get a little bit of everything, but doing that meaningfully is easier said than done, although some of that issue is alleviated thanks to the club stuff being omni-present.

However, with the more branch-focused updates, I do worry about "wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle" syndrome that might impact player's satisfaction with an individual update. Big picture, none of that worries in the long run when the game is complete, but there are unique considerations to keeping players interested in a game like you would an episodic TV show.
 
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Takkatakka

Takkatakka

Engaged Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,572
7,251
Gavin Ray said:
To chime in another opinion about release frequency and story path complexity... I never even considered the fact that several years of development can have a detrimental effect on not only the players patience to hang around/keep supporting the project, but also the developers patience with the project itself. I'm not a huge creative myself, being more into the technical side of things, but I can appreciate the fact that working on a single project for 3+ years can be very mentally taxing, creatively.
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I hope I don't open a bad can of worms here, but I suspect that was - at least in part - the reason for DPC to make the somewhat "infamous" Interlude between Ep. 8 and 9 of BaD. He just wanted to make something else with different characters in a different setting.

I think Eternum avoids that simply by the basic idea of the game that it play in considerable parts in a virtual reality, where he can set the story in all kinds of different places and times. So he can make scenes on a space station and scenes at a college party and scenes in ancient Rome all in the same game, without actually breaking the story.

As someone who constantly needs new input myself, I can certainly understand that developers can also burn out at their own game.

TD1900 said:
people who don't like Hana are fucked.
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and rightfully so!

Seriously though: That is just one of the core problems of these types of games that I see in pretty much any VN. And right now I don't really see any way around this except keeping all branches together until very late in the game or just have an outright harem ending. On the other hand that also means that there will be few really meaningful and interesting decisions, because most decisions will boil down to "stay on the path of woman x" or "leave the path of woman x". It is also hampering the immersion when you have like 5 women all fawning over the MC thinking they are in a relationship with him without realizing that there are 4 other women also doing that. So I don't know if there is a "golden path" out of the permutation problem.
 
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True_Degenerate

True_Degenerate

Newbie
Sep 10, 2021
32
269
TD1900 said:
If you have a Hana update, people who don't like Hana are fucked.
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TD1900 said:
With the more branch-focused updates, I do worry about "wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle" syndrome that might impact player's satisfaction with an individual update.
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I'd personally prefer narrow and deep, even if a branch update ends up undesirable due to personal preference. Unveiling more of the story in that branch, accompanied by some hot art/sex is always enough satisfaction. In 4.1 Hana was fleshed out as a character with her lust, Cynthia, and after-sex conversation. The art/sex was also hot. In a potential Vero-focused update, I'd have zero interest sexually, but story elements would carry, like they do in her club events. Besides, your psyop skills might even convert people who aren't fans of a particular girl. Vero's morning scene in 4.1 demonstrates that potential.
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TD1900 said:
There are unique considerations to keeping players interested in a game like you would an episodic TV show.
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With 4.1, there were the 4 morning scenes, Ian's visit, and the Alice/Amber ending. I think you've got the balance down. But for strict-branches, where a considerable amount of players won't be seeing the content, an idea could be to show what's going on with the other characters, without Edwin being involved. It's not used much in PC, but scenes showcasing Kathy+Abel's scheming are always shown this way, and the Alice/Amber ending was as well.
 
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ShadowLordV1

ShadowLordV1

Member
Aug 18, 2022
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True_Degenerate said:
View attachment 2439931


I'd personally prefer narrow and deep, even if a branch update ends up undesirable due to personal preference. Unveiling more of the story in that branch, accompanied by some hot art/sex is always enough satisfaction. In 4.1 Hana was fleshed out as a character with her lust, Cynthia, and after-sex conversation. The art/sex was also hot. In a potential Vero-focused update, I'd have zero interest sexually, but story elements would carry, like they do in her club events. Besides, your psyop skills might even convert people who aren't fans of a particular girl. Vero's morning scene in 4.1 demonstrates that potential.
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With 4.1, there were the 4 morning scenes, Ian's visit, and the Alice/Amber ending. I think you've got the balance down. But for strict-branches, where a considerable amount of players won't be seeing the content, an idea could be to show what's going on with the other characters, without Edwin being involved. It's not used much in PC, but scenes showcasing Kathy+Abel's scheming are always shown this way, and the Alice/Amber ending was as well.
Click to expand...
I personally adore routes, called me old fashioned but there is something so sweet and endearing about being able to focus on 1 singular character. Sure Harems are fun but I think a game should still offer choice, I think Once In A Lifetime did it absolutely phenomanlly.
 
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Phase_01

Phase_01

Well-Known Member
Nov 27, 2021
1,212
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True_Degenerate said:
View attachment 2439931


I'd personally prefer narrow and deep, even if a branch update ends up undesirable due to personal preference. Unveiling more of the story in that branch, accompanied by some hot art/sex is always enough satisfaction. In 4.1 Hana was fleshed out as a character with her lust, Cynthia, and after-sex conversation. The art/sex was also hot. In a potential Vero-focused update, I'd have zero interest sexually, but story elements would carry, like they do in her club events. Besides, your psyop skills might even convert people who aren't fans of a particular girl. Vero's morning scene in 4.1 demonstrates that potential.
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.



With 4.1, there were the 4 morning scenes, Ian's visit, and the Alice/Amber ending. I think you've got the balance down. But for strict-branches, where a considerable amount of players won't be seeing the content, an idea could be to show what's going on with the other characters, without Edwin being involved. It's not used much in PC, but scenes showcasing Kathy+Abel's scheming are always shown this way, and the Alice/Amber ending was as well.
Click to expand...
How the fuck did I get locked out of this route, wtf :cry: I'm assuming this is the scene where u invite her over after the event
 
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Takkatakka

Takkatakka

Engaged Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,572
7,251
TD1900 said:
Yessir. You have to invite Veronica over after exhibition 2, which is contingent on hugging her after the tarantula scene. Which I thiiiink you need 25 affection to do in the first place.
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That is btw an example for a good and (probably) meaningful choice, because you have multiple scenes that are all kinda precious and important in their own right.

Also pretty work intensive but I would rather have a few of those than many choices that don't really matter after all.
 
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Alphaeboy

Alphaeboy

Active Member
Jul 22, 2019
597
938
True_Degenerate said:
View attachment 2439931


I'd personally prefer narrow and deep, even if a branch update ends up undesirable due to personal preference. Unveiling more of the story in that branch, accompanied by some hot art/sex is always enough satisfaction. In 4.1 Hana was fleshed out as a character with her lust, Cynthia, and after-sex conversation. The art/sex was also hot. In a potential Vero-focused update, I'd have zero interest sexually, but story elements would carry, like they do in her club events. Besides, your psyop skills might even convert people who aren't fans of a particular girl. Vero's morning scene in 4.1 demonstrates that potential.
You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.



With 4.1, there were the 4 morning scenes, Ian's visit, and the Alice/Amber ending. I think you've got the balance down. But for strict-branches, where a considerable amount of players won't be seeing the content, an idea could be to show what's going on with the other characters, without Edwin being involved. It's not used much in PC, but scenes showcasing Kathy+Abel's scheming are always shown this way, and the Alice/Amber ending was as well.
Click to expand...
I prefer routes tbh than Harem. Sometimes Harems force girls on me that I don't really like or care for. At least with Routes I can decide which girls I want and don't want.
 
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4.90 star(s) 477 Votes