VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Turret]

I really don't understand this outlook.(...)

Hi!
I think you missinterpret some arguments here. Many Mina fans assume that Ian treated her badly from the start, so she never told him of her bucket list, which simply cannot be the case. They would not have come/stayed together if that was the case. We know that Ian can be charming if he wants to and when he met Mina, while he was already influenced by Chuck, it was not to the degree he is in the present of PC. There are several hints throughout the game that Ian until starting his selfsabotage later on, he and Mina certainly hit it off.
We even have evidance of this in the game, when it is nearly too late to do something. e.g. There is one outcome of the altercation in the disco where Mina and Ian are clearly happy with each other.

While Ian went far too far with his cheating and it does not excuse his actions, one piece of info we learn about Ian and Mina´s situation in the bedroom does paint a not so good picture about Mina as well, esp. knowing she has her bucketlist. That Ian has to rouse Mina´s jealousy by flirting with other girls to get a hotter roll in the hay with her is not a good sign.
By the time this started (in the past of the game) Mina will certainly had learned that Ian gets off on wild sex, would not look down on her for her sex fantasies and Ian would also be more than happy to experiment with her. But she still played the role of the quasi innocent, despite wanting the same kind of sex as Ian.

Mina playing the innocent role is even more obvious with Hana at the birthday. Mina and Hana click early on with each other there and it is strikingly obvious by Hana´s looks and what she tells us, that there not much which can shock here and she is a quite open girl.
Sure, you normally do not tell someone you know only a couple hours your deepest sex fantasies, but how Mina reacts to and treats Hana and Ian during the truth and dare game is telling. For example the sharp look Mina gives Hana for talking about a kink more tame than most of Mina´s fantasies she wants to realise some day. That is totally unneccesary from Mina. Or how she reacts to some other revelations in the company of people she can be sure(!) won´t think less of her if they knew her kinks and in that case they don´t. But she still plays the innocent one to a ridicilous degree. So much that Hana knowing her for just that evening cannot stop herself from teasing the hell out of Mina.

We just argue that while Ian was the main culprit of their break up, Mina is not completely blameless.

 

[True_Degenerate]

Spoiler: On Ian's treatment of Mina.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina's treatment of Ian.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina-Ian communication.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina not leaving Ian sooner.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina and cheating.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Takkatakka]

Spoiler: On Ian's treatment of Mina.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina's treatment of Ian.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina-Ian communication.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina not leaving Ian sooner.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina and cheating.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Gee...I wonder, why she never just talked with Ian about what she wants...

 

[BrockLanders]

Spoiler: On Ian's treatment of Mina.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina's treatment of Ian.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina-Ian communication.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina not leaving Ian sooner.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina and cheating.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

From the moment he stood at the bar and admitted to Edwin that he was making Mina jealous so she'd work harder in bed, I knew he was an absolute piece of shit. Anyone who still believes that Mina was the problem in that relationship or that Ian is misunderstood is just projecting at this point. I was too lazy to go back and re-screenshot these examples. Excellent work!

 

[TD1900]

Like I said the relationship in general doesn't make sense. Because it's a shabbily constructed excuse for the "winning over an asshole's hot gf" trope.

If you don't think there are people out there who stomach and ignore the infidelity of their partner, or are willfully embroiled in a cycle of toxic behavior, I don't think your grasp of people is as solid as you purport it to be.

Now, the characters blatantly saying what they think or the heightened porn game reality, sure. Those are contrivances. But the underlying dynamic is very much a thing.

 

[TM | Twisted Games]

If you don't think there are people out there who stomach and ignore the infidelity of their partner, or are willfully embroiled in a cycle of toxic behavior, I don't think your grasp of people is as solid as you purport it to be.

Now, the characters blatantly saying what they think or the heightened porn game reality, sure. Those are contrivances. But the underlying dynamic is very much a thing.

Are you trying to say that all relationships are not perfect mergings of an innocent young lady and a polite strapping young man both of whom have noble souls, do the right thing at all times, are considerate of each other's feelings, and open doors for the elderly? I think you've lost your mind, sir.

 

[BrockLanders]

Apart from it being an obviously stupid plan to anyone whose knowledge of women or even people isn't solely based on VNs, he then goes on to fuck women other than Mina. Like I said the relationship in general doesn't make sense. Because it's a shabbily constructed excuse for the "winning over an asshole's hot gf" trope.

I still remember watching some of my "friends" talk about their girlfriends in the stretching circle at practice after school. Later on, I took Nutrition Technology and was the only guy in the class. Just like Home Econ in eighth grade, the only guy... all according to plan Still didn't date anyone from it, because they just asked me about their shitty boyfriends on the soccer team. I sat there and let them run Cosmo personality tests on me while things baked. To this day I still don't know who was actually interested in me and were giving signals and who wasn't... I was oblivious. All I know is I just said, "I don't know they don't really talk about you," a lot. There were a lot of young women going through their first serious relationship and in the spring later on, I did too.

One person's "shabbily constructed" trope, is another's sadly nostalgic and realistic one. If only I knew what all the hugs and playful elbowing meant, I would have at least made some more friends of the opposite sex. I knew a few Minas that dated a few Ians over the years. You cant save them all. Maybe that's why I have a soft spot for her.

 

[Mark17]

Can someone, please post the new preview!

 

[BrockLanders]

If you don't think there are people out there who stomach and ignore the infidelity of their partner, or are willfully embroiled in a cycle of toxic behavior, I don't think your grasp of people is as solid as you purport it to be.

Now, the characters blatantly saying what they think or the heightened porn game reality, sure. Those are contrivances. But the underlying dynamic is very much a thing.

Preach.
I dated a toxic, hot as fuck, borderline personality disorder suffering woman for four years. She got physically abusive at times and freaked out over dumb shit often. Don't drink on your anti-psychotics, kids. However, underneath, she was really sweet and suffered from childhood abuse though, and I loved her. Oh yeah, she could probably turn the knob and open a door just with her pussy and I was a hung pervert so we were sort of addicted to each other. The whole crazy package, that one.

I should've been firmer and I should've been more dominating with her in bed. It's what she responded to, but I didnt like conflict. When you added it all up, she was infinitely more abusive and very manipulative. Ask the cops. Did you know you can just dial 911, have the phone ripped from your hand and hung up, and they'll still come? Good to know.

But gee... maybe if I didnt break up with a woman that had serious childhood-rooted abandonment issues 10 times in 4 years, I might've been able to have a better relationship instead of a deteriorating one. Although II'mnot a toxic person, I was part of a toxic rrelationship. An active part. I wish I realized at the time instead of in the shower ten years later.

Four. Four years.

 

[BrockLanders]

 

[DragoonC]

gallery unlock mod anyone ?

 

[TD1900]

That's not my point, it's about the context. Do people have terrible sex irl? Yes. Is Cat Person a good book? No. I actually like Ian and I stole his gf. Reverse ex post facto - the relationship doesn't make sense so I'm not guilty of wrecking it.

What other context would I have in mind when I quoted you saying Ian and Mina's relationship didn't make sense? You brought up how Ian's thoughts didn't hold up for anyone with a passing knowledge of how humans work and I was following that line of thinking to the contrary.

Anyway, my response was and still remains that it's a dynamic rooted in believable behavior. It may not be portrayed in a way that resonates with you, and it's definitely hindered by my construction as a writer, but it makes sense and there was a consideration beyond the fantasy of "winning over an asshole's GF." I would like to think that Ian's portrayal (and presence) as a character speaks to that.

However, I am a bit biased, and this is the kinda topic that boils down to "yes it does" and "no it doesn't" so I suspect this is what it will be left at.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

Spoiler: On Ian's treatment of Mina.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina's treatment of Ian.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina-Ian communication.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina not leaving Ian sooner.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Spoiler: On Mina and cheating.

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Nice one!

Seems I was partly wrong.

(Have not played the Mina part of the new update yet.)

Ian's talk could still be the usual male melancholic self-pity and guilt after ending a relationship and only partly a correct assessment of his behaviour, but it seems it is intended to show us that he is fully to blame.

But unless Mina is just practicing her acting skills with MC and lying with everything - there seem to be conflicting statements in the game (if my memories don't betray me).
Here Mina is saying she went along with everything Ian wanted while Ian paints a radically different picture earlier in the game. Is Mina lying? Was Ian lying? Is it a mistake in writing?

Why was Ian so dissatisfied with her in bed then?

Also the way Mina portrays herself in these CGs - shuts up if told to, concerned about her partners pleasure, going along with everything he wants - is imo in conflict with her feisty nature when we see her together with Ian.

And Mina should of course be concerned about one-sided action with MC. He ate her out 6 (?) times already while his dick was still untouched. Everything else would be unacceptable.
And yes, Ian's right. Mina talks too much.

At least it seems clear now that Mina wanted to cheat for a long time and did it - but of course doesn't enjoy it.

So unless there is some big twist waiting somewhere, what these CGs mostly show me is that the whole Mina-MC-Ian thing really is just a 'Nice guy' fan service and less nuanced than I remembered it. Mina poor innocent victim in the relationship, Ian bad bad asshole boyfriend in the relationship.


Thanks for clearing up the discussion and saving me from wasting more of my time on the Mina arc.

 

[lkjhgfdfghjkl]

saving me from wasting more of my time on the Mina arc.

Spoiler: Mina's arc

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[ename144]

Hi!
I think you missinterpret some arguments here. Many Mina fans assume that Ian treated her badly from the start, so she never told him of her bucket list, which simply cannot be the case. They would not have come/stayed together if that was the case. We know that Ian can be charming if he wants to and when he met Mina, while he was already influenced by Chuck, it was not to the degree he is in the present of PC. There are several hints throughout the game that Ian until starting his selfsabotage later on, he and Mina certainly hit it off.
We even have evidance of this in the game, when it is nearly too late to do something. e.g. There is one outcome of the altercation in the disco where Mina and Ian are clearly happy with each other.

While Ian went far too far with his cheating and it does not excuse his actions, one piece of info we learn about Ian and Mina´s situation in the bedroom does paint a not so good picture about Mina as well, esp. knowing she has her bucketlist. That Ian has to rouse Mina´s jealousy by flirting with other girls to get a hotter roll in the hay with her is not a good sign.
By the time this started (in the past of the game) Mina will certainly had learned that Ian gets off on wild sex, would not look down on her for her sex fantasies and Ian would also be more than happy to experiment with her. But she still played the role of the quasi innocent, despite wanting the same kind of sex as Ian.

Mina playing the innocent role is even more obvious with Hana at the birthday. Mina and Hana click early on with each other there and it is strikingly obvious by Hana´s looks and what she tells us, that there not much which can shock here and she is a quite open girl.
Sure, you normally do not tell someone you know only a couple hours your deepest sex fantasies, but how Mina reacts to and treats Hana and Ian during the truth and dare game is telling. For example the sharp look Mina gives Hana for talking about a kink more tame than most of Mina´s fantasies she wants to realise some day. That is totally unneccesary from Mina. Or how she reacts to some other revelations in the company of people she can be sure(!) won´t think less of her if they knew her kinks and in that case they don´t. But she still plays the innocent one to a ridicilous degree. So much that Hana knowing her for just that evening cannot stop herself from teasing the hell out of Mina.

We just argue that while Ian was the main culprit of their break up, Mina is not completely blameless.

No, I think I'm interpreting the arguments properly, I just find them completely unsupported.

Even if Mina is Ian's girlfriend, she doesn't OWE it to Ian to disclose her bucket list. They're her kinks. She's completely within her rights to hide them from anyone she thinks wouldn't treat them appropriately - and as True_Degenerate illustrated, Ian has *deliberately* abused her trust and belittled her sensibilities pretty much from the get go.

Moreover, you imply Mina's innocence is disingenuous and I just don't agree. Her bubbly, innocent persona is an affectation, but it is not false. That's the person Mina wants to be, and thus it's how she tries to act. Mina doesn't see herself as a nymphomaniac so she hides that aspect of herself; the dichotomy between her preferred self-image and her overactive libido is a big part of why she's so reluctant to vocalize her fantasies.

Lastly, the idea that Mina will disclose truths to Hana she won't admit to Ian is flat out preposterous. Ian is sitting right next to them during the game! The fact that only Hana was respectful enough to answer Mina's questions earnestly and wise enough to recognize the pattern in Mina's questions ought to make it crystal clear why Ian never learned about the list. Yet some people refuse to believe their lying eyes and insist Mina *must* have intentionally misled Ian.

It's a real headscratcher to me.

 

[JasonsGranpa]

Spoiler: Mina's arc

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Why did she have that pose again in your first pic? Can't remember...

Up to this update and what I've seen from True_Degenerates post it seems more like

Spoiler: Mina's arc

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

 

[Bill Temple]

From the moment he stood at the bar and admitted to Edwin that he was making Mina jealous so she'd work harder in bed, I knew he was an absolute piece of shit. Anyone who still believes that Mina was the problem in that relationship or that Ian is misunderstood is just projecting at this point. I was too lazy to go back and re-screenshot these examples. Excellent work!

Apart from it being an obviously stupid plan to anyone whose knowledge of women or even people isn't solely based on VNs, he then goes on to fuck women other than Mina. Like I said the relationship in general doesn't make sense. Because it's a shabbily constructed excuse for the "winning over an asshole's hot gf" trope.

It's not a stupid plan. It's a plan destined to backfire eventually if your goal is to build a healthy, long-term relationship with someone. It's a very sensible, though selfish and borderline evil, plan if your goal is to emotionally manipulate someone into doing what you want.

What other context would I have in mind when I quoted you saying Ian and Mina's relationship didn't make sense? You brought up how Ian's thoughts didn't hold up for anyone with a passing knowledge of how humans work and I was following that line of thinking to the contrary.

Anyway, my response was and still remains that it's a dynamic rooted in believable behavior. It may not be portrayed in a way that resonates with you, and it's definitely hindered by my construction as a writer, but it makes sense and there was a consideration beyond the fantasy of "winning over an asshole's GF." I would like to think that Ian's portrayal (and presence) as a character speaks to that.

However, I am a bit biased, and this is the kinda topic that boils down to "yes it does" and "no it doesn't" so I suspect this is what it will be left at.

The context of a thing as it appears in your porno game instead of whether it or similar things exist irl. As you correctly point out in the next paragraph the disagreement is actually about whether this part of the plot is servicing the fantasy of winning over the asshole's gf cus he doesn't deserve her and one manages to qualify a contrived threshold of 'better man'. Rather than questioning whether assholes and their gfs actually exist. Besides which Ian and Mina are clearly the center of a heated debate that goes far down the rabbit hole located in the vicinity of what I originally said.

Anyway I like your game on the whole and there are parts of it that make sense, just not this one.

The context of this game is a world much like our own in which there are a lot of people in toxic, self-sabotaging, and dangerous situations being taken advantage of by people with deficient levels of empathy. I think Ian and Mina's relationship falls in that category.

The relationship "doesn't make sense" in that rational, informed, 3rd party observers, such as the players, can tell not only that it's not going to work out but it's also unhealthy for at least one of the participants. The relationship does make sense in that it's a realistic depiction of a toxic relationship. Rich playboys often swoop attractive, young, naïve women, with romance and the pretense of love. Naive women often fall for these ploys and find themselves infatuated with such men for many reasons, not the least of which is the novelty of the situation.

The point of the relationship's inclusion in the game, I believe, is to present us with more interesting moral dilemmas than the "Steal Yo Girl" Fantasies usually have in porn games: Do we have Edwin "save" this girl from being poisoned by the emotional mistreatment (I hesitate to call it abuse) at the hands of his best friend by winning her for himself while betraying his friend? If Edwin steals Mina for himself is he actually putting her in a better situation than with Ian? Are we really saving her from Ian's toxicity or are we greedily snaking an adorable, hot model for Edwin to play with?

 

[Nulldev]

Why did she have that pose again in your first pic? Can't remember...

After club evening, when you make Mina do the push-ups.

 

[dolfe67]

After club evening, when you make Mina do the push-ups.

Out of context it seems like she's listening for a train's passage

 

[Turret]

No, I think I'm interpreting the arguments properly, I just find them completely unsupported.

Even if Mina is Ian's girlfriend, she doesn't OWE it to Ian to disclose her bucket list. They're her kinks. She's completely within her rights to hide them from anyone she thinks wouldn't treat them appropriately - and as True_Degenerate illustrated, Ian has *deliberately* abused her trust and belittled her sensibilities pretty much from the get go.

Moreover, you imply Mina's innocence is disingenuous and I just don't agree. Her bubbly, innocent persona is an affectation, but it is not false. That's the person Mina wants to be, and thus it's how she tries to act. Mina doesn't see herself as a nymphomaniac so she hides that aspect of herself; the dichotomy between her preferred self-image and her overactive libido is a big part of why she's so reluctant to vocalize her fantasies.

Lastly, the idea that Mina will disclose truths to Hana she won't admit to Ian is flat out preposterous. Ian is sitting right next to them during the game! The fact that only Hana was respectful enough to answer Mina's questions earnestly and wise enough to recognize the pattern in Mina's questions ought to make it crystal clear why Ian never learned about the list. Yet some people refuse to believe their lying eyes and insist Mina *must* have intentionally misled Ian.

It's a real headscratcher to me.

Hi!
Yes, I think you misinterpret my text, since you do not write about the points I want to make. It might be that we have some translation loss in the meaning of the argumention chains and language stuff in general here. So a try at a very basic compressed translation:
a) While True_degenerate illustrated the situation at the time the game, it cannot be the situation "from the get go". Ian and Mina´s relationship was roughly a year old when they are at the birthday paty. Had Ian started out like he behaved at the end, the two would never have come together, no matter that Ian hyperboles during the talk with Edwin! It does not function like that. He would never have gotten Mina on the hook had he started it like he did in the end!
And that Ian can be charming if he wants to is shown in several scenes, not just with Mina, but e.g. Vicki. And there is a another hint of it in the party scenes. When they are forced to say something nice about each other. It is clear Ian could be different if not Chuck would influence him strongly.

b) This is something of a headscratcher for me, why some Mina fans try to read something from my posts I never said nor intended! I always said that Ian is by far the main culprit why the relationship with Mina crashed, no debate here, it was practically selfsabotage. It is just that there are scenes with hints that Mina is not completely blameless it came to that.

c) I do not imply Mina´s innocnece is a complete act like you insinuate, her personality is mainly like this at that point in game. But Mina is not quite as innocent as you believe! She is steering her innocence depending on the situation how thick or thin she lays it on. She clearly overdid it at Edwin´s birthday party, even with Ian present! It was completely unnecessary to e.g. give Hana the glare she gave her when she explained a kink which was not as"bad" as the ones she wants to try. No one present would have "hmmed" if Mina just listened to it.