VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Biscardone]

Take this as you will, but Kathleen is the heroine of my heart.

I think Kathleen, whose personality I utterly despise, is severely underrated in the "public discourse". Her perspective adds something very unique to the game, and to Edwin's train of thought - if he ever lets her in, at the very least.

This evening I had an interesting thought. I was talking to my mother yesterday, and we were arguing about familial and romantic love. She said: "Fact is, I love you and your brother in a way you can't possibly comprehend". I replied: "On the contrary, I think I can - I know familial bonds, and I agree they are indeed very strong". She paused for a second, and she said: "No. I don't think you'll ever know the depth of my love for you and your brother". We dropped the topic, since I thought we were arguing semantics... But then, this evening, I was ruminating about Pale Carnations, and this piece of dialogue popped up in my mind:

Edwin: "I just don't want to be someone my mother would hate. That's the one thing that keeps playing in my--"
Kathleen: "Edwin, Edwin, Edwin... Deep down. Do you think your mom could ever possibly hate you?"
Edwin: "...I don't know."
Kathleen: "I don't think she would. Mothers love their sons no matter what."

That's why I think Kathleen can be central in specific playthroughs. Because it can definitely reframe Edwin's and Victoria's relationship, and in particular Edwin's views of her past. Of course, hers is a very cynical / clinical point of view - and the results may not be pleasant; but Pale Carnations is a game of contrasts and shades of gray. To reiterate, her perspective in the game is important - even if you totally reject it.

 

[se20299]

I think Kathleen, whose personality I utterly despise, is severely underrated in the "public discourse". Her perspective adds something very unique to the game, and to Edwin's train of thought - if he ever lets her in, at the very least.

This evening I had an interesting thought. I was talking to my mother yesterday, and we were arguing about familial and romantic love. She said: "Fact is, I love you and your brother in a way you can't possibly comprehend". I replied: "On the contrary, I think I can - I know familial bonds, and I agree they are indeed very strong". She paused for a second, and she said: "No. I don't think you'll ever know the depth of my love for you and your brother". We dropped the topic, since I thought we were arguing semantics... But then, this evening, I was ruminating about Pale Carnations, and this piece of dialogue popped up in my mind:

Edwin: "I just don't want to be someone my mother would hate. That's the one thing that keeps playing in my--"
Kathleen: "Edwin, Edwin, Edwin... Deep down. Do you think your mom could ever possibly hate you?"
Edwin: "...I don't know."
Kathleen: "I don't think she would. Mothers love their sons no matter what."

That's why I think Kathleen can be central in specific playthroughs. Because it can definitely reframe Edwin's and Victoria's relationship, and in particular Edwin's views of her past. Of course, hers is a very cynical / clinical point of view - and the results may not be pleasant; but Pale Carnations is a game of contrasts and shades of gray. To reiterate, her perspective in the game is important - even if you totally reject it.

Well, Vicky would never hate Edwin for his choices, but she would probably hate herself for being a horrible mother, rightfully or not. Her whole persona she puts up is built upon this wholesome housewife image, and she assumes that Edwin has no idea about what she actually did to put the food on the table. Of course, a woman has her needs, it's just that she scratched the itch and earned money at the same time, and she probably feels guilty about enjoying her humilliation so much. She has no idea that Edwin knows about her freaky past, and imagine her anguish if she ever finds out that Edwin works at such a place, especially since August is hinted to have been her producer/pimp during her glory days.

Of course, it's not completely Vicky's fault, as she did the best with what she had, and Edwin was a nasty kid before he saw his mother get glazed by dozens and dozens of strangers, but I suspect that only served to fuck him up more. Their confrontation about the club and Vicky's porno days seems inevitable, and the outcome will probably depend on Edwin's alignment, as Kat seems to be pushing him to embrace the deep seated anger that Edwin is probably unaware he still has.

 

[TD1900]

Groce.

I'd wager the only players who care about kathleen are milf lovers, without a doubt a large group, probably the majority of all players here. However, my point is if you strip that away her appeal shrinks to nil. I wonder how many non-milf-lovers even give her the time of day, I certainly don't.

I mean, she gets trashed in the character polls for a reason, but hey... can't buy sophisticated taste.
Speaking as a player, the grandma thing is just one of the pluses.

 

[helo138]

I mean, she gets trashed in the character polls for a reason, but hey... can't buy sophisticated taste.
Speaking as a player, the grandma thing is just one of the pluses.

She gets trashed in these polls, because she acts as the bad guy against the carnations, wants to manipulate/corrupt Hana and so on. Since these acts put her into direct opposition or at least represent competition for the player character, she gets left in the dust regarding popularity. Her age may play a factor, but only a minor one.
However, as others already mentioned she brings something unique to the table, playing mind games with the protagonist with regards to his moral compass, while at the same time setting the stage for the battle of carnations, the main theme of the story. Therefore she is not only a very intriguing character but also an important one, because without her, pale carnations would be a different, probably much less interesting, game.

 

[Ottoeight]

I mean, she gets trashed in the character polls for a reason, but hey... can't buy sophisticated taste.
Speaking as a player, the grandma thing is just one of the pluses.

I'll be honest: I feel very uncomfortable when she humiliates the Carnations, mostly Rosalind. The electric shocks "game" made me feel miserable.
I hate her so much.

The fact that your work is thrilling me so much tells me how damn good your writing is, in my opinion.

 

[Takkatakka]

Groce.

I'd wager the only players who care about kathleen are milf lovers, without a doubt a large group, probably the majority of all players here. However, my point is if you strip that away her appeal shrinks to nil. I wonder how many non-milf-lovers even give her the time of day, I certainly don't.

I mean she pretty much is the antagonist of the game, so it would be weird if tons of players would like her to be the main LI at the same time. That would mean the game doesn't really work for them.

 

[helo138]

I'll be honest: I feel really uncomfortable when she humiliates the Carnations, mostly Rosalind. The electric shocks "game" made me feel miserable.
I hate her so much.

The fact that your work is thrilling me so much tells me how damn good your writing is, in my opinion.

That is of course also true, and one of the reason, why I want to see her fall in my main playthrough.
Who am I kidding, since Pale Carnation is such a great game, I will probably try all the different routes, evil/good/harem .

 

[agrdtcwa]

Groce.

I'd wager the only players who care about kathleen are milf lovers, without a doubt a large group, probably the majority of all players here. However, my point is if you strip that away her appeal shrinks to nil. I wonder how many non-milf-lovers even give her the time of day, I certainly don't.

Kathleen is best girl because she will help Edwin turn every other girl into a slut. Actually scratch that they are all sluts even if they dont know it yet. Kathleen is best girl because she takes every other girl into a spiritual journey of self discovery to help them unleash their inner slut.

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

Kathleen is best girl because she will help Edwin turn every other girl into a slut. Actually scratch that they are all sluts even if they dont know it yet. Kathleen is best girl because she takes every other girl into a spiritual journey of self discovery to help them unleash their inner slut.

and do you like or dislike milfs?

 

[Retro Wave]

I'd wager the only players who care about kathleen are milf lovers

As a representative from the milf-lovers: Rosaline is more than enough, thank you very much. I don't know what kind of person loves kathleen, but they scare me

 

[Ungawa]

I'll be honest: I feel very uncomfortable when she humiliates the Carnations, mostly Rosalind. The electric shocks "game" made me feel miserable.
I hate her so much.

The fact that your work is thrilling me so much tells me how damn good your writing is, in my opinion.

Yep, that's quality heel heat.

Kathleen is that one manager on the side that riles up the crowd while their wrestler's doing this thing and brings in a chair or something while the ref is blind to hit someone.

You hate what she's doing, but you gotta respect the hustle.

She's drugged Edwin, taken her sister's charity to use for Carnation pumping, got her hustles on the side and got someone to corrupt.

And her husband's a goddamn judge that don't know anything about ANY of this while she's for the EVULZ.

Good lord, a capable quality villain and a DD rack?

Thank YOU Mutt and Jeff for showing how evil stays in fashion!

Spoiler: Good to be evil...

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[Daken9]

Kathleen's not that capable, though. Literally everyone that matters has her number, and that's pretty much the only reason they keep around. She's just too limited and small picture to actually ever become a threat. Hell, any Edwin who doesn't feed her hilariously overt plays has her number, and he's only known her for a couple weeks. Not that she's completely without skill, i guess if not having a conscience can be considered such then it served her well, but the more the game goes on and the more i get the feeling that she's really small fry.

 

[Ottoeight]

Kathleen's not that capable, though. Literally everyone that matters has her number, and that's pretty much the only reason they keep around. She's just too limited and small picture to actually ever become a threat. Hell, any Edwin who doesn't feed her hilariously overt plays has her number, and he's only known her for a couple weeks. Not that she's completely incompetent although she does get completely humiliated by Veronica on week 1, but the more the game goes on and the more i get the feeling that she's really small fry.

You forgot her bond with Abel and the fact that Warren is literally her bodyguard and factotum. He does whatever she wants. And I have the feeling that the main reason our old chap Jimmy the Cop (aka the police chief) is a patron is that he openly hopes to screw her one day.

 

[Turret]

You forgot her bond with Abel

I would not overestimate this "bond". It is already clear that Abel dislikes, loathes all three leaders of PC! Kath currently simply has her uses for Abel and Sophia, so she is not in the immediate crosshairs.

 

[1000Spiders]

Yep, that's quality heel heat.

Agreed. She's a repulsive person but an amazing villain. I love to hate her.

 

[Spamwise]

I like Kathleen when she does things that bring me closer to my fetishes.

When she does things that keeps my dick out of Veronica, or suggests I torture Harper, I have issues with her.

 

[1000Spiders]

I want Kathleen to get a taste, or rather a large bucket, of her own medicine, preferably by MCs or the carnations hand.

Play a nice guy. Just be as nice as possible to all the other girls. It's basically orgasm denial for Kathleen. Call it corruption denial.
She wants to corrupt MC into venting his sadistic urges on the girls and becoming as big a monster as she is. So be the biggest white knight you can and indulge your sadistic side by denying Kathleen what she desires most. Have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Cricco]

A one way ticket to jail would also be coo, most repugnant old hag in porn. And she doesnt even look like a hag but since that shit with Veronica i'd take one of those hags from BG3 over her

 

[ename144]

Groce.

I'd wager the only players who care about kathleen are milf lovers, without a doubt a large group, probably the majority of all players here. However, my point is if you strip that away her appeal shrinks to nil. I wonder how many non-milf-lovers even give her the time of day, I certainly don't.

I must join the chorus in disagreeing. Kathleen's appeal is entirely in her characterization: she's a villain with style, menace, AND a strong thematic link to the hero. That's a combination that's worth it's weight in gold, narratively speaking. There are plenty of antagonists I flat out hate in AVNs (see Cassandra in Artemis for an easy example); Kathleen's an antagonist I love to hate.

It's a small but crucial difference!

 

[Pr0GamerJohnny]

I must join the chorus in disagreeing. Kathleen's appeal is entirely in her characterization: she's a villain with style, menace, AND a strong thematic link to the hero. That's a combination that's worth it's weight in gold, narratively speaking. There are plenty of antagonists I flat out hate in AVNs (see Cassandra in Artemis for an easy example); Kathleen's an antagonist I love to hate.

It's a small but crucial difference!

But again, I'd ask, are you normally a fan of milfs? I understand the distinction you're making, for me it's the former, flat out.