VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch. 4 Up 4 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Deleted member 216358]

Since I missed all the penetration scenes in my first playthrough I decided to look at the walkthrough. I found this very interesting statement and wonder if it is still true:

" Note: At this point I will give you paths. Choose whatever one you want, there are variations of each but I will give you the two paths to get the most points with the girl you are more interested in, and not piss off Killian too much. There is also a group path, as it is rather boring it will not be mentioned.
Felicity Path
Mina / Party Path"

I had no idea that those were the two main paths in the game. I generally frown on walkthroughs because they suck the fun out of the game... In fact, if a game requires a walkthrough in order to be successful in it I will steer clear at all costs. Those types of games are poorly designed in my opinion (walkthroughs should always be optional). This game does not fit into that category obviously.

 

[Retromancer]

I fail to see how Veronica literally losing her house and her job/business to "start from scratch" is a viable option.

From where she should start again when living on the streets without money even for food? Go live below a brigde and scavenge some food from the trash of a restaurant? There is no telling if she would even find a job at another gym specially with Samsom outright declaring he is doing anything in his power to sabotage her.

I'm sorry, I actually don't really want to argue about this, but this post shows a basic ignorance of how bankruptcy laws in the US, where I am assuming the game is set, actually work. First, this point - I don't recall anything in the game about Veronica being under the threat of losing her house. We don't even know if she owns a house - I've known business owners who don't.

Second, the argument that having a business go under automatically means the owner has to "live below a bridge" is just ridiculous bullshit. If this were the case, people would be very reluctant to open a business at all. This is what bankruptcy court is for. There are ways to restructure debt, to get some debt wiped away, etc. depending on the type of bankruptcy (Chapter 7, Chapter 11, Chapter 13 etc). There are plenty of people who have kept their homes after bankruptcy, and even gone on to form new businesses.

You seem to have this weird impression that having a business fail is a catastrophic life event. In fact, most businesses in the US fail after a period of time. The business owner files the bankruptcy that is best suited for them (and there is a whole class of lawyers who work on bankruptcy), and move on. To suggest that Veronica's hand is automatically being forced here is to ignore basic economic facts on the ground. While I don't know for a fact if the game is set in the US or not, most English speaking countries have, I assume, pretty similar laws to prevent people's lives from being completely destroyed if they take a risk and open a business and it fails, or all our economies would be a lot shittier than they are today.

Also, as a side note, why does Veronica have to work at a gym? She could work as a bartender, a waitress, a stripper, a construction worker etc. Samson can't have influence everywhere. The argument that Veronica is just a helpless victim who has no choice just doesn't hold water. Yes, she has been victimized by a shady shitbag, and I have sympathy for that. But she is a grown-ass woman who can make her own choices and did not need to do this

 

[vneotpolemus]

Since I missed all the penetration scenes in my first playthrough I decided to look at the walkthrough. I found this very interesting statement and wonder if it is still true:

" Note: At this point I will give you paths. Choose whatever one you want, there are variations of each but I will give you the two paths to get the most points with the girl you are more interested in, and not piss off Killian too much. There is also a group path, as it is rather boring it will not be mentioned.
Felicity Path
Mina / Party Path"

I had no idea that those were the two main paths in the game. I generally frown on walkthroughs because they suck the fun out of the game... In fact, if a game requires a walkthrough in order to be successful in it I will steer clear at all costs. Those types of games are poorly designed in my opinion (walkthroughs should always be optional). This game does not fit into that category obviously.

Those paths only affect that section of the game. Depending on your choices you'll get one of three sex scenes and a different mix of relationship points, but it doesn't lock you into/out of future interactions with any characters.

 

[sunaboz]

Try working on a job where most people on the street, people making the laws and the people enforcing said laws throw rocks at you figuratively, and sometimes literally, but under the cover of night come to request your services.

Saying that's simply not true is an euphemism. "Most people on the street"? Really? "People making the laws literally throwing rocks at you"? Your response is so ridiculous that I don't even need to counter your "arguments". It goes like this for the whole post where you state that Veronica would "literally lose her house and her job" (WTF?) or go live under the bridge scavenging trash...

I'm from Poland and even here we have options for companies that lose liquidity, in the case of Veronica she has humongous gym which at least for a while was super successful (allowing her to hire an actor - Samson - to promote it for example) but also has huge operation costs. Of course going smaller is a viable option but Veronica doesn't want that and that's her choice. But saying she doesn't have such option is just an egregious lie.

About Rosalind, even if it was true that Chief of the Police or judges (I don't remember any judges in the game but it doesn't matter much in the case of our discussion) wouldn't do their duty in her case (so far we have no reason to believe that, as scummy Kathleen and other club owners are they've never blackmailed anyone to join the club and only gave a choice, that goes for exhibitions as well, women can resign whenever they want), we know for a fact that Rosalind hasn't done so. Instead she went to an organization that helps women and after her encounter with Killian she made a decision that whoring herself out wouldn't be so bad (I guess Ian has some magic touch).

As for the Veronica's quote it wasn't just bravado, she's taking all this very calmly and coldly and it is just sex to her. It's not only in this situation that we've seen it and it's not just words, we could see it during her performance.

Naturally I told her I wasn't interested. Who'd be stupid enough to invest in a business that was haemorrhaging money without any real plan to fix it? That's when I brought up the club...
Oddly enough she jumped at the opportunity. Didn't blink, didn't waffle. I suppose that's the kind of woman she is. Incapable of doubt, always moving forward...
I was 99% sure she would've clocked me for even suggesting it but here we are."

For one, if you've got a killer body like me, you don't shy away from showing it.

You're basically a human cockroach. Why would I wet myself like a schoolgirl undressing in front of a bug?

P.S.
I suggest you look up the word "literally" because I don't think you know what it means.

EOT on my part.

 

[quorkboy]

There is always a way out and IMO selling your body is the easy way out. The hard way is working 2 jobs at the same time for example or to be more specific:

I didn't say there weren't more difficult options (though it's questionable whether Lucy's suggested option is more difficult.) I said the idea that what they go through in the course of the games, or as a worker at the club in the case of Lucy, is easy requires a redefinition of the word easy.
I also never said they had no choice.

Your Killian quote supports the idea that this isn't necessarily enjoyable or easy for them.

Full context of your Veronica quote is important:

Kathleen: "It's in your best interest to be honest. If you're not cut out for the role, you'll end up regretting it."
Veronica: "It's just sex work, isn't it? You're overselling it."
Kathleen: "Is that what you think? You think that this will be easy?"

Similarly, Rosalind's quote was in the context of what she did with the MC in the coffee shop and not the club. None of these quotes support your premise.

I haven't got the impression so far that any of them, other than Felicia, is actively enjoying the games or working at the club.

As with pretty much everything in this game, we're talking things that don't have simple binary states. This is not a "do something difficult that requires real effort" vs "do something in which you find great pleasure and that requires little effort" situation. They've made hard choices because they felt this was what was necessary to achieve their goals. You can disagree with their choices all you want, but they were not the easy way out.

 

[TD1900]

I had no idea that those were the two main paths in the game. I generally frown on walkthroughs because they suck the fun out of the game...

What vneotpolemus said basically. That part basically comes down to do you ignore Mina and drink with Felicia or do you check up on her, both of which will take you in different directions for the night.

In fact, if a game requires a walkthrough in order to be successful in it I will steer clear at all costs. Those types of games are poorly designed in my opinion (walkthroughs should always be optional). This game does not fit into that category obviously.

The game is meant to be played without a walk through, point thresholds are rather generous and any hidden values that aren't explicitly mentioned are reflected in the text. For example, during the the part where you interview one of the three Carnations, Kathleen emphasizes they'll be a reward (an h-scene) if you do a good job and each question you ask ends with Edwin commenting on how well he thinks that question landed. Obviously the consequence of every choice in the game isn't explicitly foreshadowed, but that's just an aspect of visual novels. You're meant to go back, make different choices, and see what happens.

 

[ename144]

Since I missed all the penetration scenes in my first playthrough I decided to look at the walkthrough. I found this very interesting statement and wonder if it is still true:

" Note: At this point I will give you paths. Choose whatever one you want, there are variations of each but I will give you the two paths to get the most points with the girl you are more interested in, and not piss off Killian too much. There is also a group path, as it is rather boring it will not be mentioned.
Felicity Path
Mina / Party Path"

I had no idea that those were the two main paths in the game. I generally frown on walkthroughs because they suck the fun out of the game... In fact, if a game requires a walkthrough in order to be successful in it I will steer clear at all costs. Those types of games are poorly designed in my opinion (walkthroughs should always be optional). This game does not fit into that category obviously.

As vneotpolemus mentioned, these aren't "paths" through the game, they are just alternate ways through the scene. Esentially you can focus on Felicia (one of the shots at penetrative sex you missed on the first playthrough), or you can focus on Mina, which will result an after party at Ian's apartment. If you focus on Mina but also invite Felicia to dance you can get a few points with both girls, but still end up at the after party. Zoey Raven doesn't seem to like documenting branching gameplay, so the walkthrough lumps the 'group' path in with Mina's and is very vague on the details.

The actual path decisions that can close off content for the girls come in Week 1. Felicia's and Mina's are extremely obvious. Rosalind's is equally obvious, but AFAICT it's possible to miss the option entirely if the MC didn't take certain actions earlier in the game. Veronica's is a bit more roundabout, but still heavily implies the MC's relationship with her hinge on the choice.
Hana's is a bit less obvious with the telegraphing, but it's still pretty hard to miss IMHO.

Kathleen is the most complicated since she has several opportunities to earn trust points rather than a formal path. Still, I didn't find it hard to guess what Kat would like, so it shouldn't be too hard to rack up Trust points with her (assuming you have the stomach for it).

EDIT:
Bah, I take too long writing a post and TD ninjas me! Time for bed, I think.

I'm sorry, I actually don't really want to argue about this, but this post shows a basic ignorance of how bankruptcy laws in the US, where I am assuming the game is set, actually work. First, this point - I don't recall anything in the game about Veronica being under the threat of losing her house. We don't even know if she owns a house - I've known business owners who don't.

Second, the argument that having a business go under automatically means the owner has to "live below a bridge" is just ridiculous bullshit. If this were the case, people would be very reluctant to open a business at all. This is what bankruptcy court is for. There are ways to restructure debt, to get some debt wiped away, etc. depending on the type of bankruptcy (Chapter 7, Chapter 11, Chapter 13 etc). There are plenty of people who have kept their homes after bankruptcy, and even gone on to form new businesses.

You seem to have this weird impression that having a business fail is a catastrophic life event. In fact, most businesses in the US fail after a period of time. The business owner files the bankruptcy that is best suited for them (and there is a whole class of lawyers who work on bankruptcy), and move on. To suggest that Veronica's hand is automatically being forced here is to ignore basic economic facts on the ground. While I don't know for a fact if the game is set in the US or not, most English speaking countries have, I assume, pretty similar laws to prevent people's lives from being completely destroyed if they take a risk and open a business and it fails, or all our economies would be a lot shittier than they are today.

Also, as a side note, why does Veronica have to work at a gym? She could work as a bartender, a waitress, a stripper, a construction worker etc. Samson can't have influence everywhere. The argument that Veronica is just a helpless victim who has no choice just doesn't hold water. Yes, she has been victimized by a shady shitbag, and I have sympathy for that. But she is a grown-ass woman who can make her own choices and did not need to do this

Kat explicitly tells us Veronica lives at the gym as she has nowhere else; the strong implication is that Veronica has sold her home to keep the gym operating. So yes, at this point filing for bankruptcy probably would leave her with nothing, because she has bet pretty much everything on the gym. Bankruptcy can protect personal assets from the failure of a company, but if the owner chooses to invest everything into that company anyway there are limits to what even bankruptcy can do to protect them.

It's certainly fair to say that tripling down like that was a foolish decision for exactly this reason. Kat will even mention Veronica's pride is the true reason she joined the competition rather than just give up and start over. (Then again, it could also be that Kat is feeding the MC an overly simplistic, cynical view to justify her own actions. No points for guessing which way I lean.)

At any rate, if your overall point is Veronica has options other than turning to high-class prostitution and her dream is not a sufficient justification for participating in such a crime, fair enough: I think it's reasonable take. But if your take is that it should be easy to walk away from her life's ambition just because businesses fail every day, I'm not sure I can agree.

Whether due to pride or naive optimism, Veronica is clearly willing to go to ludicrous lengths to preserve her gym, far more than most struggling entrepreneurs would dream of. That doesn't absolve her of culpability for her actions, but I do think it mitigates her actions: if holding hostage the thing someone wants most in their whole life doesn't count as undue influence, what does?

The fact Veronica would never have turned to a life of crime if Samson hadn't done everything in his power to force her hand counts for something in my book.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

I'm sorry, I actually don't really want to argue about this, but this post shows a basic ignorance of how bankruptcy laws in the US, where I am assuming the game is set, actually work. First, this point - I don't recall anything in the game about Veronica being under the threat of losing her house. We don't even know if she owns a house - I've known business owners who don't.

The game doesn't require one to about U.S. bankruptcy laws. Her house is in the same property as the gym, that is said ingame during a dialogue between Edwin and Kathleen. If she loses the place she will trully be homeless. I believe that is pretty much the same everywhere were banks exist and are executing people's assets to cover debts.

Also, as a side note, why does Veronica have to work at a gym? She could work as a bartender, a waitress, a stripper, a construction worker etc. Samson can't have influence everywhere. The argument that Veronica is just a helpless victim who has no choice just doesn't hold water. Yes, she has been victimized by a shady shitbag, and I have sympathy for that. But she is a grown-ass woman who did not need to do this

Since you started going this path, i really doubt she would be able to pay for housing, food, medicine and other bills with the appalling minimum wage in the U.S. and besides remember how Chuck (i think it was him) said, the club is a "fraternity". They likely help each other to ensare those women. Just like Killian and Kathleen worked together to trap Rosalind.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

[...]

Let's start by saying i find your lack of empathy for sex workers appalling, it seems you can't even understand the stigma this profession carries.

I think it is you who needs to pay more attention to the game you are playing. You are clearly cherry picking only the things that suit your "argument".

You let out the fact Kathleen states the the gym is also Veronica's house, therefore she can't lose the place or she will be homeless.
You also let out Edwin thinking with all the letters Samsom was full of BS right after his explanation of Veronica's reasoning or the fact that later when drunk Samsom admits what he did sabotage all of Veronica's efforts to save her gym.

But keep going, don't let the game contradict your "arguments". I am done discussing with you.

 

[Retromancer]

Since you started going this path, i really doubt she would be able to pay for housing, food, medicine and other bills with the appalling minimum wage in the U.S. and besides remember how Chuck (i think it was him) said, the club is a "fraternity". They likely help each other to ensare those women. Just like Killian and Kathleen worked together to trap Rosalind.

Good bartenders, waitresses, strippers, and even construction workers earn nothing like the minimum wage in the US. We're not a country of wall street barons and the rest of us peasants. There is a middle class in America and a path to move forward. And the idea that the Carnation club controls every element of life in whatever part of this fictional America is just fucking absurd, that's you projecting your own ideas into the game. There is no evidence this is happening

Whether due to pride or naive optimism, Veronica is clearly willing to go to ludicrous lengths to preserve her gym, far more than most struggling entrepreneurs would dream of. That doesn't absolve her of culpability for her actions, but I do think it mitigates her actions: if holding hostage the thing someone wants most in their whole life doesn't count as undue influence, what does?

The fact Veronica would never have turned to a life of crime if Samson hadn't done everything in his power to force her hand counts for something in my book.

I think we actually agree in great part here. While I think it might be 70/30 Veronica's fault v club you might think its 30/70 or something (I don't know, I just made those numbers up). The point I'm arguing against here is that all of these oh so helpless women had no choice. The one I can say may not have had a true choice is Rosalind, because a threat by a gambling ring against her life (which is also an implicit threat against her daughters life) would make any mother go pretty crazy. The fact the club took advantage of that is completely despicable, but Rosalind may have had better choices, we just don't know. I would take her side though.

 

[Retromancer]

The game doesn't require one to about U.S. bankruptcy laws. Her house is in the same property as the gym, that is said ingame during a dialogue between Edwin and Kathleen. If she loses the place she will trully be homeless. I believe that is pretty much the same everywhere were banks exist and are executing people's assets to cover debts.

This is exactly why I was trying to educate you about basic bankruptcy laws in the US, and probably in most of the western world. The banks don't just get to "execute" people's assets to cover a business owners debt, or really anyone's debt who files for bankruptcy. There are laws. Bankruptcy court can last a long time. There are ways to restructure debt, minimize debt, work with investors to come up with a better plan, etc. This idea that poor little Veronica will live under a bridge because big mean Sampson disrupted her cash flow is both ludicrous and childish. Veronica is not a child. She apparently made some shitty decisions which a shitty person then leveraged. Again, I have some some sympathy for her but to put all the blame on the club members for her own damn decisions is ridiculous.

 

[RC-1138 Boss]

Good bartenders, waitresses, strippers, and even construction workers earn nothing like the minimum wage in the US. We're not a country of wall street barons and the rest of us peasants. There is a middle class in America and a path to move forward. And the idea that the Carnation club controls every element of life in whatever part of this fictional America is just fucking absurd, that's you projecting your own ideas into the game. There is no evidence this is happening

I never said they control everything, although they likely control a lot of things in this fictional city. I said they can work together to always ensure they have "fresh meat" for their summer competitions. Which was what happened by Rosalind's own account (she was manipulated by Kathleen and Killian) so it is not a big jump to think they may have done it with others.

This is exactly why I was trying to educate you about basic bankruptcy laws in the US, and probably in most of the western world. The banks don't just get to "execute" people's assets to cover a business owners debt, or really anyone's debt who files for bankruptcy. There are laws. Bankruptcy court can last a long time. There are ways to restructure debt, minimize debt, work with investors to come up with a better plan, etc. This idea that poor little Veronica will live under a bridge because big mean Sampson disrupted her cash flow is both ludicrous and childish. Veronica is not a child. She apparently made some shitty decisions which a shitty person then leveraged. Again, I have some some sympathy for her but to put all the blame on the club members for her own damn decisions is ridiculous.

It is pretty much the same everywhere because the banks are mostly the same on the way they operate. I know because my brother worked on a bank and sometimes he handled execution of people's assets.
But that is a moot point because what matters is how it works on the game, not in real life. If ingame the whole process takes 1 or 2 years (or less) then that is how it goes.

In my mind the only "shitty" decision Veronica did was to trust Samsom to help her out, but even then i can't really fault her for that because there was no way she would have know he was going around sabotaging her efforts.

It's certainly fair to say that tripling down like that was a foolish decision for exactly this reason. Kat will even mention Veronica's pride is the true reason she joined the competition rather than just give up and start over. (Then again, it could also be that Kat is feeding the MC an overly simplistic, cynical view to justify her own actions. No points for guessing which way I lean.)

Kathleen is a manipulative sadist. I pretty much take everything she says with lots of salt.

 

[Retromancer]

I know because my brother worked on a bank and sometimes he handled execution of people's assets.
But that is a moot point because what matters is how it works on the game, not in real life. If ingame the whole process takes 1 or 2 years (or less) then that is how it goes.

And I know because my stepmother owned a gym which failed. She and my father did not lose their house, or anything as close to catastrophic as that. It was a setback. And we don't know how it works in the game. It isn't described. So until it is, I'll work off of real world definitions. Anything else is just projection. But you seem to have set narrative and a lens which through you see the game, and that's fine. Mine is different. I can't see Veronica as a 100% victim, and maybe that says something about me, but we'll just have to disagree about that

 

[Deleted member 216358]

Need more Mina, Hana, Lucy, and Felicia content Like rosiland aswell but those 4 are at the top...really don't care for the rest

I agree with your assessment except I don't care for Lucy (I like Rose better).

I would like Veronica if she wasn't a snob with a bad attitude. Her personality is off putting to me. Plus her huge hips look funny on an athletic body.

I would love to hook up with Grace without there being any commitment. I also wouldn't mind having fun with Hana's female bandmate and Dalia from the Carnation club.

Personality wise I probably like Felicia and Hana the best. I really connect with them. Mina is the dumb innocent blonde and plays that part quite well. She is quite adorable and loveable however.

 

[name]

I imagine in the short term they'd talk about Eros + Massacre. But after that there are a lot of topics each would like to discuss, but there are no clear avenues to approach them. That's why I'd be fascinated to see how it goes.

On Victoria's part, I imagine she would be very interested in a cute girl hanging out with her overly studious son - especially when she learns he met Hana at his new job. But she wouldn't want to pry, so she's probably have to take a very roundabout way to inquire.

On Hana's part, I think she'd be curious to see more of the MC's life, but I also think she'd have a lot of questions for someone who was in similar shoes to her own mother. The problem is that she really, really can't ask those questions. And she can't go into great detail about how she met the MC either, for similar reasons. So it would be interesting to see how she handles that.

As I said, I think in the short term they could bond talking over esoteric movies, and I suspect they would get along well. But after finding common ground, I wonder where the conversation would go. Admittedly, it's likely to get a little embarrassing for the MC one way or the other, but he's survived worse.

watch Victoria actually be a huge metal head and the two of them talk about their favorite underground indy bands

 

[JeffisZac]

did i do something really wrong or am i just stupid because i played the game the first time without the wt then after i played with just to see the 'true paths' and the walkthrough has more content after the call with the mom when she asks about the birthday

 

[ename144]

did i do something really wrong or am i just stupid because i played the game the first time without the wt then after i played with just to see the 'true paths' and the walkthrough has more content after the call with the mom when she asks about the birthday

It sounds like you have an old version of the game. Chapter 3 Update 1 just came out last week and continues the story after the Week 1 exhibition (and the birthday call with Victoria).

 

[MoarDakka123]

did i do something really wrong or am i just stupid because i played the game the first time without the wt then after i played with just to see the 'true paths' and the walkthrough has more content after the call with the mom when she asks about the birthday

Sounds like you don't have the latest version. Alternatively, did/do you have a modded game?

 

[JeffisZac]

It sounds like you have an old version of the game. Chapter 3 Update 1 just came out last week and continues the story after the Week 1 exhibition (and the birthday call with Victoria).

Sounds like you don't have the latest version. Alternatively, did/do you have a modded game?

i have chapter 3 up1 but i was using the walkthrough mod if that affects anything

 

[MoarDakka123]

i have chapter 3 up1 but i was using the walkthrough mod if that affects anything

Sounds like the installed mod is out of date.