VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[JJJ84]

Just got done with this update, and holy fucking moly.
The ending of this update I think was the best ending out of every single update this game has had so far.

Just these scenes alone is enough to grip me at my heartstrings despite me being totally committed to Hana solo path and her being not in any of them;

Spoiler: Literally the best scenes in the game despite not being lewd scenes

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Thanks TD1900 for such an emotional update ending.
Writing for the game has always been great but this scene with MC, MC's mom Victoria, and Ian, really packed a punch.


It also really makes me look forward to how things will go forward with the next update.

- Given I had MC tell Ian the truth about Victoria doing porn, I'd imagine Vicky will tell both boys the truth about what happened between herself and Ian's mom, Grace.
- How will Ian take it when he finds out the truth; that his mom tried to threaten Vicky in order to force him to go to College?
I'd imagine he would get pissed. Insanely pissed.
- Given Dr. Chuck tends to spend quite a bit of time with Ian at the club, I have a feeling he'll pick up on that somehow where Ian will likely confide in him.

While it's been said in one of the previous updates that Chuck loves his sister and his family, Grace I think made 2 monumental (possibly even irreparable) mistakes in her convo with Victoria;

1) revealing to Vicky that she knows everything that Chuck knows; basically all skeletons in Vicky's closet (her past etc)
2) blackmailing Vicky (probably "I will reveal your past to your son if you don't help me" or something) into trying to force her help into persuading Ian to go to college.

First mistake, I can already imagine Chuck being very displeased with.
But second mistake, Grace literally stepped over a line.

Given the good relationship Chuck tends to have with MC (even moreso given my MC's trust with Chuck is maxed), I'd be very surprised if Grace doesn't get a severe reprimand (if not punishment of sorts lol) in the next update or the one after that.

 

[SonsOfLiberty]

all the links for pc had limit download.

No they don't on Patreon, the public update isn't posted here yet, they used Oppaiman direct link (super-fast) and MEDIAFIRE, both don't have any sort of limit.

 

[Tapjazz]

can anyone drop "persistent" file with all gallery entries unlocked? My v44 save don't work

 

[quitter123]

May I ask which week the game has reached now? Playing this game often feels like reflecting on oneself. I’m thinking of waiting until it’s nearly finished before starting to play.

 

[ename144]

This part isn't even on my main playthrough. There many other appalling things she allows to be done to her even in the lightest path.

I think this is a big part of your disagreement with the Felicia-philes. Felicia doesn't find bukkakes or getting throat fucked on stage appalling. She's into that shit. That's why she joined the competition in the first place: it would let her tickle her kinky bone AND quietly humiliated Elias at the same time, and given how good she is at playing up men's fantasies she had an excellent chance to win.

Or so she thought. She wasn't taking into account that Kathleen had no interest in letting Felicia enjoy Kat's yearly ode to sadism. That's why she has been ranping up activities that include components of physical pain or danger to Felicia's social standing. So far the results haven't been all that effective (particularly if the MC sides with Felicia), but we know Kat is poised to ramp things up dramatically this week.

At any rate, a lot of your complaints are addressed if you view the club material through the eyes of someone who finds being sexually degraded a turn on. IMHO.

 

[DarkLords00]

Excellent update! I think I loved it more than the last two previous ones (and that's saying A LOT), although maybe I am a bit biased.

There was much I like about this update and none of it I personally disliked or found any kind of problems with at least not at face value. However, I still yet to see a lot of content like the Kathleen dependant scene and some stuff with the carnations and Hana since my first playtrough was a Mina(post Ian breakup) path.
I've seen some people claiming a certain dissapointment on some of the scenes due to being too short with certain specific girls, and I see where it can come from since I this update covered a lot of ground and also progressed the story MONUMENTALLY character wise by the end. So let's rant about it!

Spoiler: Rosalind and her dinner date

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Spoiler: The Summer College "Triangle"

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Spoiler: The Reunion with Dalia and Investigating Darius Ex

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Spoiler: Grace and Victoria

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Spoiler: Hana's Concert

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Spoiler: Victoria's Confession

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My final thoughts...

Incredible update, as I said I haven't enjoyed the developments in this story this much in a long long time. (That's not a diss it's just updates take a long time to make xD). Incredible job from both of you and congrats to you both

Spoiler: "Bonus" Favourite Render of the Update

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[KiraJames]

Love me some hannah and mina, they are so cute.

p.s I also love the gilf, even though she is a pos.

 

[Hungover00]

I do wonder why Edwin and Ian have the big talk about secrets right on the doorstep of Victoria's house. Like, guys, get in the fucking car, or something! Poor OpSec.

 

[Darreau91]

p.s I also love the gilf, even though she is a pos.

Everyone has to stick their dick in crazy atleast once in their lives, just dont have her fedex a divorce and put a ring on it.

 

[sunaboz]

(...)
Given the good relationship Chuck tends to have with MC (even moreso given my MC's trust with Chuck is maxed), I'd be very surprised if Grace doesn't get a severe reprimand (if not punishment of sorts lol) in the next update or the one after that. (...)

You expect me to believe that Chuck would give two shits about Victoria some whore? Or that Chuck would do anything to hurt his beloved sister (who he himself brought up so she's basically his daughter)? I think you're greatly overestimating Edwin's value to Chuck. If not for Ian's brother-love for Edwin Chuck wouldn't even think about Edwin, he explicitly said that the only reason he offered this job to him is because Ian is his weakness, if not for him they would be practically strangers (as much as you are strangers with your teacher).

If anything I can see Ian doing something to hurt Grace (although nothing really nasty, Ian is too god for that hopefully and as far as we can tell Grace had never done anything to hurt Ian before because she loves him) and Chuck reprimanding Ian. I might be wrong but the way I see it for Chuck

Grace > Ian >> Edwin > shit >> Victoria.

 

[JJJ84]

I think you're greatly overestimating Edwin's value to Chuck.

And I think you're doing the same regarding how much Chuck is doting on Grace & willing to forgive her regardless even if she messes something up or even crosses the line.
Not to mention dismissing how much Edwin & Victoria matters to Ian.

Also, lol you are aware of "discipline", right?
Yes, Chuck raised Grace like a father as you said, but even parents discipline kids when they do something wrong/bad.
Just doting on the children gives them bad habits thinking they can get away with anything.
What makes you be so sure that Chuck won't discipline (reprimand or punish) Grace for what she did?

Grace basically;

1) Told Vicky that she was aware of her porn work past
2) Told Vicky that Chuck has taken MC under his wing like with Ian
3) Blackmailed Vicky into forcing Ian to do what her (Grace) and her husband wants.


To look through them one by one;

1) From how Grace & Vicky's convo went in their meet, it can be said without a doubt that Chuck told this secret long ago when they were young (i.e. when both MC & Ian were much younger I think).
Given Grace has kept the secret this long, it's more likely than not Chuck has told his sister to keep it quiet.
And Grace, out of her desperation to keep Ian in line with what she wants (i.e. send him to college), pulls out the "porn work secret" card thinking it will push Vicky to do what she wants.

And while nothing's been shown yet as to what were Chuck's instructions for his sister, do you really think he would not care whether this gets out?



2) Next, she literally blurts out Chuck has taken MC under his wing.
Now, while it doesn't specifically show that Chuck wanted to keep this a secret from Victoria (from my memories), Vicky finding out that her son is working under Chuck causes nothing but trouble for Chuck's end, given it's unlikely she will have a favorable view of her son working in such environment; especially given how Vicky herself is ashamed of that part of her past.


and.....

3) Blackmail
Grace could have done anything. Literally anything else to try and persuade her son to go to college.
But first she tried to manipulate MC into persuading Ian to go to college (which I obviously didn't do of course, Ian's way too much of a bro for my MC to betray his trust), and when that didn't work tried to manipulate Vicky to do it for her.
Despite Vicky's suggestions of "start things small and slowly move up to persuade" she basically ignored it and brought up the unplesant past and ending with blackmail to force Vicky's hand.



You said, "why would Chuck would give two shits about Victoria?"
lol let me flip that question for ya; "Why wouldn't he?"

I'll give you 3 reasons why he would give two shits;

1) IAN
2) IAN
3) IAN

You placed Grace > Ian, but I see that order is only relevant when only Grace is in the right and nothing detrimental happened to whatever Chuck himself has planned or values.
I can see that order be very much flipped to Ian > Grace if the actions Grace had taken doesn't benefit Chuck in any way or simply put, Grace is in the wrong - and she 100% is in this case.

To add further, no way will Chuck risk antagonizing his nephew that he loves.
That time Ian shuts his mother out (if player's MC told Ian about how his mother wanted to convince him to go to college), all Grace did was just try to manipulate MC. No antagonistic actions were taken, no permanent damage.
Hence, Chuck tried to calm his nephew down with that phone call with "Please talk to your mother for my sake" etc etc.

This situation with Victoria is completely different from that.
Besides, you really think someone like Chuck wouldn't be aware that Victoria was more of a mother figure to Ian, much much moreso than his own sister ever was?



Lastly, you said Chuck and MC are literally strangers.
In terms of biology lol, yes they are, and as you said Chuck only gave that job at the club due to Ian's insistence.
But you're dismissing how much closer MC and Chuck gets over the course of the game.

Sure, it started off as nepotism due to Ian, but the interactions the two of them have become more like a family.
Come to think of it, he even gives a stern warning to Mrs. Pulman saying "I now think of Edwin like a family, so you will NOT push him over to the edge with your antics" (or something very similar to those words) and Mrs. Pulman relents a bit saying "I understand."
Noone would say that about MC if he thought MC was just a stranger to him.


Hence taking everything I said till now into account, to your question yes Chuck would literally give two shits about Vicky.
He may have raised his sister like a daughter, but even taking that into account I'd say there are limits to what his sister should have been allowed to do.
And Grace crossed the line here.
Ignoring it without at least a repirmand or punishment, Chuck would literally be throwing the whole relationship he had been building with Ian & MC away.

I have a strong feeling he won't do that.
But who knows. Only TD1900 would know given he's the creator.

We're just throwing theories around here at this point.

 

[Beduin123]

I think this is a big part of your disagreement with the Felicia-philes. Felicia doesn't find bukkakes or getting throat fucked on stage appalling. She's into that shit. That's why she joined the competition in the first place: it would let her tickle her kinky bone AND quietly humiliated Elias at the same time, and given how good she is at playing up men's fantasies she had an excellent chance to win.

That's what I also find unrealistic. I guess that's how porn logic works, but IRL it's hard to imagine highly intelligent and determined woman, who Felicia is, enjoying to be degraded to such low level. I mean there is no physical pleasure for a woman to be spunk on by a dozen of old dirty men or being degraded in other ways. So, either she is totally fucked up in the head, and I mean totally (you can call it a kink or whatever), or she does it for money (which is clearly not Felicia's case).

So, again I agree, by the pure porn logic it may be OK. But in this case Felicia loses a large part of her appeal to me as I don't enjoy smart and beautiful women being completely degraded to the dirt. It means they don't have self respect which means I, in turn, have no respect for them.

In the beginning of the game she appeared as a mysterious, smart, manipulative and extremely beautiful woman, but her present image is rather a mentally troubled, unstable and broken person. I think in its core it is this change of her character that I find hard to accommodate.

 

[Ozymandias037]

I don't understand what's wrong with rich men...

There's a whole lot of things, but here are two big ones:

1. Powerful people always want more power, and they're willing to sacrifice almost all other people and things to get it.
2. Because the rich and powerful always want more, the things they already have don't matter as much as the things they don't. Novelty and making numbers go brrrrr, that's what they care about. Felicia isn't a person to Elias, she's just one more way of keeping score and showing all the other rich people how great he is.

________

Also, I think all y'all arguing over Chuck and Grace are forgetting that Chunk and Edwin were already at least friendly towards one another. "Uncle" Chuck was Edwin's favorite teacher, and Edwin was one of Chuck's favorite students. Now that could certainly have been due to Ian's affection for Edwin, but they had a friendship separate from Ian, too.

It's also pretty clear to me that Chuck is doing his best to turn both Ian and Edwin into younger versions of himself, and encourage them to enjoy their lives in all the same twisted ways that Chuck does. He may love his sister Grace, but he can't share his whole, depraved self with her in the same ways he can with Ian (and by extension Edwin).

 

[Beduin123]

Love me some hannah and mina, they are so cute.

p.s I also love the gilf, even though she is a pos.

Yep, Hana / Mina are also my favorite girls. Especially now that (as I understand) they are open for threesomes.

 

[JJJ84]

Also, I think all y'all arguing over Chuck and Grace are forgetting that Chunk and Edwin were already at least friendly towards one another. "Uncle" Chuck was Edwin's favorite teacher, and Edwin was one of Chuck's favorite students. Now that could certainly have been due to Ian's affection for Edwin, but they had a friendship separate from Ian, too.

Yeah, that favorite teacher and favorite students fact was actually addressed in early game (which I only remember the very broadstrokes), so I had totally forgotten about that lol

 

[Ozymandias037]

That's what I also find unrealistic. I guess that's how porn logic works, but IRL it's hard to imagine highly intelligent and determined woman, who Felicia is, enjoying to be degraded to such low level. I mean there is no physical pleasure for a woman to be spunk on by a dozen of old dirty men or being degraded in other ways. So, either she is totally fucked up in the head, and I mean totally (you can call it a kink or whatever), or she does it for money (which is clearly not Felicia's case).

So, again I agree, by the pure porn logic it may be OK. But in this case Felicia loses a large part of her appeal to me as I don't enjoy smart and beautiful women being completely degraded to the dirt. It means they don't have self respect which means I, in turn, have no respect for them.

In the beginning of the game she appeared as a mysterious, smart, manipulative and extremely beautiful woman, but her present image is rather a mentally troubled, unstable and broken person. I think in its core it is this change of her character that I find hard to accommodate.

The pleasure of exhibitionism isn't physical (or, okay, not only physical), it's psychological. Some people just get off on being watched. As for the degrading, some people get off on that, too. Especially rich and powerful people. Felicia gets off on both.

Sure, a lot of rich people are into domination, but a lot of them are also into submission. As someone else said a bunch of pages ago, rich people spend their entire lives bossing others around and being obeyed in every little thing. It's a complete role reversal for them to be humiliated and dominated, and some of them find that extremely arousing.

Also, I think there are three big things you're discounting:
1. You're right, Felicia absolutely, 100%, is fucked in the head. There is not a single character in this story that isn't fucked up in one way or another (or several). EDIT: You know what, I think I have to add an asterisk to this one. Mina actually seems relatively normal and mostly sane. Sure, she's got that naughty checklist, but that's more about exploring her own sexuality than anything else, and nothing so far has been too far out there.

2. As you yourself have said a bunch of times, Felicia is gorgeous, smart, single-minded, manipulative, and incredibly motivated. Do you really think that goes away just because she lets men jizz all over her? Do you really think she isn't using this entire competition as more manipulation of the men around her? She herself says (I think, anyway) that she's absolutely willing to use her good looks and the expectations of everyone around her as weapons. Why do you think that isn't exactly what she's doing?

3. You've mentioned a few times the danger to her social standing if her peers among the rich and powerful should find out what she's doing, and you've also mentioned that she's debasing herself in front of some of the most powerful men in the city. Those things are both true, as far as they go. But there is no way the men who see these things are going to go telling everyone all about it. Not only because of the aspect everyone else has mentioned, that the super smug and self-satisfied Elias is getting gigacucked and has no idea it's happening. Consider: what are they gonna do, casually drop in conversation at the country club that they saw the craziest thing at their secret illegal brothel club last weekend? The members of the club have just as much to lose socially, professionally, and reputationally as Felicia does. In fact, they're probably even more at risk if word gets out to the wrong people. I have to think that's part of the thrill of joining such a club in the first place -- the risk and taboo nature of everything going on is half the fun! And none of that even considers the potential for August sending an "associate" to do very bad things to them and/or their families if they open their mouths where they shouldn't.

 

[Beduin123]

The pleasure of exhibitionism isn't physical (or, okay, not only physical), it's psychological. Some people just get off on being watched. As for the degrading, some people get off on that, too. Especially rich and powerful people. Felicia gets off on both.

Sure, a lot of rich people are into domination, but a lot of them are also into submission. As someone else said a bunch of pages ago, rich people spend their entire lives bossing others around and being obeyed in every little thing. It's a complete role reversal for them to be humiliated and dominated, and some of them find that extremely arousing.

Also, I think there are three big things you're discounting:
1. You're right, Felicia absolutely, 100%, is fucked in the head. There is not a single character in this story that isn't fucked up in one way or another (or several). EDIT: You know what, I think I have to add an asterisk to this one. Mina actually seems relatively normal and mostly sane. Sure, she's got that naughty checklist, but that's more about exploring her own sexuality than anything else, and nothing so far has been too far out there.

2. As you yourself have said a bunch of times, Felicia is gorgeous, smart, single-minded, manipulative, and incredibly motivated. Do you really think that goes away just because she lets men jizz all over her? Do you really think she isn't using this entire competition as more manipulation of the men around her? She herself says (I think, anyway) that she's absolutely willing to use her good looks and the expectations of everyone around her as weapons. Why do you think that isn't exactly what she's doing?

3. You've mentioned a few times the danger to her social standing if her peers among the rich and powerful should find out what she's doing, and you've also mentioned that she's debasing herself in front of some of the most powerful men in the city. Those things are both true, as far as they go. But there is no way the men who see these things are going to go telling everyone all about it. Not only because of the aspect everyone else has mentioned, that the super smug and self-satisfied Elias is getting gigacucked and has no idea about it. Consider: what are they gonna do, casually drop in conversation at the country club that they saw the craziest thing at their secret illegal brothel club last weekend? The members of the club have just as much to lose socially and reputationally as Felicia does. In fact, they're probably even more at risk if word gets out to the wrong people. And that doesn't even consider the potential for August sending an "associate" to do very bad things to them and/or their families if they open their mouths where they shouldn't.

Well, firstly you didn't get my main point about my initial perception of Felicia's character.

Secondly, as I said twice, according to the porn logic you are absolutely correct. But how many rich people you know personally who like to degrade themselves, who like to be submissive? How many rich people you know at all?

Thirdly, you are wrong in many details. For example, August threatening the families of the club members is ridiculous. Whom would he threaten, the city's police chief, the security corporation CEO or other millionaires? You probably watched too many gangster movies about all powerful mafia, but in reality the mafia exists as long as the state is weak or allows the mafia to exist for some reason. The State is the biggest mafia of all. And August isn't even a mafia boss but just a successful pimp.

But that's OK. I don't want to return to the lengthy discussions about details, they lead nowhere and anyway people always read the comments in the wrong way.

I get it from you and other members that Felicia is a sick, mentally unstable, unpredictable whore without self respect. That's OK, means she is not an LI but a side girl in my view. Still good to watch porn with her.

I think it sums it up.

 

[Ottoeight]

I do wonder why Edwin and Ian have the big talk about secrets right on the doorstep of Victoria's house. Like, guys, get in the fucking car, or something! Poor OpSec.

Victoria just went to bed. She's sleeping now.

You expect me to believe that Chuck would give two shits about Victoria some whore? Or that Chuck would do anything to hurt his beloved sister (who he himself brought up so she's basically his daughter)? I think you're greatly overestimating Edwin's value to Chuck. If not for Ian's brother-love for Edwin Chuck wouldn't even think about Edwin, he explicitly said that the only reason he offered this job to him is because Ian is his weakness, if not for him they would be practically strangers (as much as you are strangers with your teacher).

If anything I can see Ian doing something to hurt Grace (although nothing really nasty, Ian is too god for that hopefully and as far as we can tell Grace had never done anything to hurt Ian before because she loves him) and Chuck reprimanding Ian. I might be wrong but the way I see it for Chuck

Grace > Ian >> Edwin > shit >> Victoria.

And I think you're doing the same regarding how much Chuck is doting on Grace & willing to forgive her regardless even if she messes something up or even crosses the line.
Not to mention dismissing how much Edwin & Victoria matters to Ian.

Also, lol you are aware of "discipline", right?
Yes, Chuck raised Grace like a father as you said, but even parents discipline kids when they do something wrong/bad.
Just doting on the children gives them bad habits thinking they can get away with anything.
What makes you be so sure that Chuck won't discipline (reprimand or punish) Grace for what she did?

Grace basically;

1) Told Vicky that she was aware of her porn work past
2) Told Vicky that Chuck has taken MC under his wing like with Ian
3) Blackmailed Vicky into forcing Ian to do what her (Grace) and her husband wants.


To look through them one by one;

1) From how Grace & Vicky's convo went in their meet, it can be said without a doubt that Chuck told this secret long ago when they were young (i.e. when both MC & Ian were much younger I think).
Given Grace has kept the secret this long, it's more likely than not Chuck has told his sister to keep it quiet.
And Grace, out of her desperation to keep Ian in line with what she wants (i.e. send him to college), pulls out the "porn work secret" card thinking it will push Vicky to do what she wants.

And while nothing's been shown yet as to what were Chuck's instructions for his sister, do you really think he would not care whether this gets out?



2) Next, she literally blurts out Chuck has taken MC under his wing.
Now, while it doesn't specifically show that Chuck wanted to keep this a secret from Victoria (from my memories), Vicky finding out that her son is working under Chuck causes nothing but trouble for Chuck's end, given it's unlikely she will have a favorable view of her son working in such environment; especially given how Vicky herself is ashamed of that part of her past.


and.....

3) Blackmail
Grace could have done anything. Literally anything else to try and persuade her son to go to college.
But first she tried to manipulate MC into persuading Ian to go to college (which I obviously didn't do of course, Ian's way too much of a bro for my MC to betray his trust), and when that didn't work tried to manipulate Vicky to do it for her.
Despite Vicky's suggestions of "start things small and slowly move up to persuade" she basically ignored it and brought up the unplesant past and ending with blackmail to force Vicky's hand.



You said, "why would Chuck would give two shits about Victoria?"
lol let me flip that question for ya; "Why wouldn't he?"

I'll give you 3 reasons why he would give two shits;

1) IAN
2) IAN
3) IAN

You placed Grace > Ian, but I see that order is only relevant when only Grace is in the right and nothing detrimental happened to whatever Chuck himself has planned or values.
I can see that order be very much flipped to Ian > Grace if the actions Grace had taken doesn't benefit Chuck in any way or simply put, Grace is in the wrong - and she 100% is in this case.

To add further, no way will Chuck risk antagonizing his nephew that he loves.
That time Ian shuts his mother out (if player's MC told Ian about how his mother wanted to convince him to go to college), all Grace did was just try to manipulate MC. No antagonistic actions were taken, no permanent damage.
Hence, Chuck tried to calm his nephew down with that phone call with "Please talk to your mother for my sake" etc etc.

This situation with Victoria is completely different from that.
Besides, you really think someone like Chuck wouldn't be aware that Victoria was more of a mother figure to Ian, much much moreso than his own sister ever was?



Lastly, you said Chuck and MC are literally strangers.
In terms of biology lol, yes they are, and as you said Chuck only gave that job at the club due to Ian's insistence.
But you're dismissing how much closer MC and Chuck gets over the course of the game.

Sure, it started off as nepotism due to Ian, but the interactions the two of them have become more like a family.
Come to think of it, he even gives a stern warning to Mrs. Pulman saying "I now think of Edwin like a family, so you will NOT push him over to the edge with your antics" (or something very similar to those words) and Mrs. Pulman relents a bit saying "I understand."
Noone would say that about MC if he thought MC was just a stranger to him.


Hence taking everything I said till now into account, to your question yes Chuck would literally give two shits about Vicky.
He may have raised his sister like a daughter, but even taking that into account I'd say there are limits to what his sister should have been allowed to do.
And Grace crossed the line here.
Ignoring it without at least a repirmand or punishment, Chuck would literally be throwing the whole relationship he had been building with Ian & MC away.

I have a strong feeling he won't do that.
But who knows. Only TD1900 would know given he's the creator.

We're just throwing theories around here at this point.

My 2 cents?

Ian and Grace will have a conversation along the lines of the conversation they had after Edwin told Ian about Grace's request.

Chuck? IF Ian tells him, he will simply have a phone conversation with Grace where he calmly tells her to stop because there is no point.

But it is as you said: who knows?

That's what I also find unrealistic. I guess that's how porn logic works, but IRL it's hard to imagine highly intelligent and determined woman, who Felicia is, enjoying to be degraded to such low level. I mean there is no physical pleasure for a woman to be spunk on by a dozen of old dirty men or being degraded in other ways. So, either she is totally fucked up in the head, and I mean totally (you can call it a kink or whatever), or she does it for money (which is clearly not Felicia's case).

So, again I agree, by the pure porn logic it may be OK. But in this case Felicia loses a large part of her appeal to me as I don't enjoy smart and beautiful women being completely degraded to the dirt. It means they don't have self respect which means I, in turn, have no respect for them.

In the beginning of the game she appeared as a mysterious, smart, manipulative and extremely beautiful woman, but her present image is rather a mentally troubled, unstable and broken person. I think in its core it is this change of her character that I find hard to accommodate.

Oh man, Beduin123 vs The World once again.

The pleasure of exhibitionism isn't physical (or, okay, not only physical), it's psychological. Some people just get off on being watched. As for the degrading, some people get off on that, too. Especially rich and powerful people. Felicia gets off on both.

Sure, a lot of rich people are into domination, but a lot of them are also into submission. As someone else said a bunch of pages ago, rich people spend their entire lives bossing others around and being obeyed in every little thing. It's a complete role reversal for them to be humiliated and dominated, and some of them find that extremely arousing.

Also, I think there are three big things you're discounting:
1. You're right, Felicia absolutely, 100%, is fucked in the head. There is not a single character in this story that isn't fucked up in one way or another (or several). EDIT: You know what, I think I have to add an asterisk to this one. Mina actually seems relatively normal and mostly sane. Sure, she's got that naughty checklist, but that's more about exploring her own sexuality than anything else, and nothing so far has been too far out there.

2. As you yourself have said a bunch of times, Felicia is gorgeous, smart, single-minded, manipulative, and incredibly motivated. Do you really think that goes away just because she lets men jizz all over her? Do you really think she isn't using this entire competition as more manipulation of the men around her? She herself says (I think, anyway) that she's absolutely willing to use her good looks and the expectations of everyone around her as weapons. Why do you think that isn't exactly what she's doing?

3. You've mentioned a few times the danger to her social standing if her peers among the rich and powerful should find out what she's doing, and you've also mentioned that she's debasing herself in front of some of the most powerful men in the city. Those things are both true, as far as they go. But there is no way the men who see these things are going to go telling everyone all about it. Not only because of the aspect everyone else has mentioned, that the super smug and self-satisfied Elias is getting gigacucked and has no idea about it. Consider: what are they gonna do, casually drop in conversation at the country club that they saw the craziest thing at their secret illegal brothel club last weekend? The members of the club have just as much to lose socially and reputationally as Felicia does. In fact, they're probably even more at risk if word gets out to the wrong people. And that doesn't even consider the potential for August sending an "associate" to do very bad things to them and/or their families if they open their mouths where they shouldn't.

That's why I think some patrons and August are going to be displeased if Elias shows up at the exhibition: 1) it would spoil the fun of "this giant cuck has no idea"; 2) his realisation might jeopardise the Club secrecy.

Just an observation: every main character - Edwin, Ian, Kathleen, the Carnations, Mina, Hana, Chuck, Victoria, August, most house girls, Warren, the club patrons - is fucked in the head in their own way.

 

[Beduin123]

Oh man, Beduin123 vs The World once again.

I agreed with the world, don't you see? As I said, people cannot read the comments.

 

[Ozymandias037]

Well, firstly you didn't get my main point about my perception of Felicia's character.

Secondly, as I said twice, according to the porn logic you are absolutely correct. But how many rich people you know personally who like to degrade themselves, who like to be submissive? How many rich people you know at all?

Thirdly, you are wrong in many details. For example, August threatening the families of the club members is ridiculous. Whom would he threaten, the city's police chief or other millionaires? You probably watched too many gangster movies about all powerful mafia, but in reality the mafia exists as long as the state is weak or allows the mafia to exist for some reason. And August isn't even a mafia boss but just a successful pimp.

But that's OK. I don't want to return to the lengthy discussions about details, they lead nowhere and anyway people always read the comments in the wrong way.

I get it from you and other members that Felicia is a sick, mentally unstable, unpredictable whore without self respect. That's OK, means she is not an LI but a side girl in my view. Still good to watch porn with her.

I think it sums it up.

I know several people who I would consider rich, actually (for reference, I don't know exactly finances but I know their net worth is over $2,000,000). I don't know the....proclivities of all of them, but one of them is quite open with close friends about how erotic they find being dominated, and they have regular monthly appointments with a dominatrix. No intercourse, because both the dominatrix and the rich person want to stay on the right side of the law, but various other kinky things.

Because here's the other secret about S&M, at least in the real world: When it's done right, the sub has all the power. The sub can make everything stop at any moment, and that's what makes it safe to play around in that transgressive space. But I don't want to get too far off topic.

Obviously Felicia's situation in the game is not quite the same, because she doesn't have quite as much freedom to make everything stop as a client paying for a service in the real world. But even so, Felicia is involved in this competition by choice, because she thinks it will help her get what she wants. She could walk away at any moment. That's one of the reasons Kathleen is on such a mission to make it personal and fuck with Felicia's head. She wants to see Felicia desperate and miserable, like the others.

I think you misinterpreted what I meant about August threatening family members. I didn't mean to imply that he had done so -- I don't think he has. All I meant to say is that the members of the club know he is a dangerous man, and not to be crossed. I admit I'm making assumptions here, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that they'd think a lot more than twice before pissing him off. That's the thing about threats -- they work best when they're implied.

Finally, I think you're still missing the biggest point that all of us are trying to make about Felicia. You keep saying she's cheap, tainted, tarnished, lacking self-respect. I think the crux of the issue is that you simply can't conceive of a person who could accept the humiliation and degradation that the Carnations go through while still maintaining positive self-image. the rest of us recognize that those two things are not mutually exclusive, especially for someone who actively gets off on being treated that way. It's not my jam either, personally, but I have no trouble accepting that there are people who find it more tolerable and less repugnant than you seem to. Felicia, specifically, simply does not care. For her, it's a means to an end, with the very large cherry on top that she actively enjoys it.

And that's okay! I feel it's important to acknowledge that I have seen and understand you saying that Felicia is one of your favorite characters despite what you see as unrealistic or disappointing aspects. I disagree with you about most of the things you find disappointing, but that's okay too! I've said my piece, you've said yours, and I have no problem with agreeing to disagree, since it's clear you'll not be convinced to change your mind. Which, again, is fine.

At the end of the day, I think the fact that so many people have chimed into this argument over however many dozens of posts it's been only serves to illustrate how great this game is. What other porn game has such depth of character that people will spend actual weeks of our presumably busy lives arguing over the motivations, personalities, flaws, and foibles of characters who, at the simplest possible level, exist just so we can all get off?

I've said this many times, but the richness of character and story that the developers have put into this game simply blows me away. The very fact that we can sit here and discuss these characters in such depth and so many aspects of their personalities and choices absolutely amazes me. TD has created real, three-dimensional characters and placed them in situations that demand we, as the readers, think about things we might otherwise not. And the craziest thing of all, to me, is that it's a porn game! I am constantly amazed at finding such Literary Merit (Capitalized for Serious English Professor Navel Gazing) in a piece of media like this. I would never have imagined it possible. But here we are, and I'm gleefully along for the ride.

Even if we do know it's going to end really badly for a lot of the characters we've come to love shhhhhhhhhh