VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[bonerland]

Man, the game has never looked better; you can tell where most of the time is spent on the development, as the girls actually look like they've been motion captured with how expressive their faces are, and the background details actually make the world look lived in, like characters going about their business in the background, or just cars passing by when characters are by or on a road. Even when you skip through a scene, it's like you're fast forwarding a movie rather than rapidly flipping through a bunch of static images. This really is one of the best looking games out there and it doesn't get enough credit in that area I feel like.

 

[helo138]

Just a few observations:

- Nicolette is "on loan" as much as Andrea (from Otto, August's fellow gangster);

- what happened to Victoria in this update is so important to me that right now I couldn't care less about the upcoming exhibition night: I should ask myself whether Elias told Felicia the truth and he's going to Tokyo or he's attending the exhibition, but the truth is that I don't care because the only thing I wanna know is what Vic is going to tell Edwin and Ian next morning;

- I agree with you about Vic's secret - it's the movies.





Just let me tell you that I'm not so "underwhelmed" as our ename144 fellow.

I think that the main problem is that we often perceive updates as "chapters" instead of them being just a step forward in the storyline progression (like in this case): this is part 5 of chapter 4 (not the whole chapter), after all.

So, I think that if anyone re-played the whole game from the start instead of playing the latest update only, he/she would appreciate it more.

That's my advice for everybody: after you played the update, just replay the whole game once at least. We have quite a few months ahead, after all.


Anyway, just a question for you Authors: are you considering the possibility of splitting the release of the next update in two halves (therefore 2 updates) - let's say: first half release covering saturday morning and afternoon until the exhibition starts; second half release covering the ehxibition and aftermath night?

I'm telling this because I have the feeling that the next update is going to be even bigger (with a development time even longer than the latest) than this latest update.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Although I suspect the authors to be against it we are starting to exceed the dreaded 9 month period for "only" one update. Since the narrative has to be split anyhow I agree to splitting it even more in favour of more regular releases. For example, the exhibition can be split into the introduction and the mandatory free roam in the first half (with a dramatic cliffhanger at the start of the exhibition) and a second update containing the show itself and the aftermath. Evenly split in 2000x2 renders. TD and GIL, please make it so.

 

[TD1900]

Just let me tell you that I'm not so "underwhelmed" as our ename144 fellow.

I think that the main problem is that we often perceive updates as "chapters" instead of them being just a step forward in the storyline progression (like in this case): this is part 5 of chapter 4 (not the whole chapter), after all.

So, I think that if anyone re-played the whole game from the start instead of playing the latest update only, he/she would appreciate it more.

That's my advice for everybody: after you played the update, just replay the whole game once at least. We have quite a few months ahead, after all.

Honestly, judging the pacing of a serialized release against the big picture is something I don't feel very adept at. I feel like I'm just hoping for the best most of the time. I mean, I try to base each update around some central theme or scenario (this one was Victoria, and there's the through line about "truth" that filters down from that to the other characters), but it's hard to say what moments should be dwelled on or sped past from the perspective of someone sequentially playing through the scenes without hitting a thanks for playing brick wall. There's probably a lot of unneeded repetition in Edwin's thoughts and narration because of that. If it happens to all bleed together in satisfying manner, I consider myself lucky as the focus is usually on making a single update have a rise and fall that is satisfying.

Still, episodic releases both keep things fresh as a developer, but it also kinda skews your perspective. So, yeah, I'm happy that you think everything's fitting.

I do think ename brings up some good points. Mainly because some of the stuff he highlights (like the contrivance of the rock show) also crossed my mind. The tricky thing is a lot of doubt crosses your mind as an author. How I manage that is taking note when (enough) people pick up on those sore spots. There's actually a ton of things I'm unhappy with that never get mentioned, so I usually file those away as "being my own biggest critic."

(And when people pick on something I'm happy with, I usually just ignore it.)

Anyway, just a question for you Authors: are you considering the possibility of splitting the release of the next update in two halves (therefore 2 updates) - let's say: first half release covering saturday morning and afternoon until the exhibition starts; second half release covering the ehxibition and aftermath night?

I'm telling this because I have the feeling that the next update is going to be even bigger (with a development time even longer than the latest) than this latest update.

Just my 2 cents, of course.

Splitting a single day into two updates... ugh, that sounds like a nightmare. We already stress out about spending 3 years on a single week and what's gonna go into the last remaining one. Honestly, it might not be a bad idea. They'll be some lead up into the event of course, what with the aftermath of Ch4Up5's ending and the pre-exhibiti0on stuff. I could see how you could build a cliffhanger on the event starting, but we'll see.

It'd feel kinda backwards finally getting back to a multi day update to doing our first "half day" update, but... I dunno. More frequent releases have always been our goal and we just get worse at it.

Man, the game has never looked better; you can tell where most of the time is spent on the development, as the girls actually look like they've been motion captured with how expressive their faces are, and the background details actually make the world look lived in, like characters going about their business in the background, or just cars passing by when characters are by or on a road. Even when you skip through a scene, it's like you're fast forwarding a movie rather than rapidly flipping through a bunch of static images. This really is one of the best looking games out there and it doesn't get enough credit in that area I feel like.

This x1000000.

GIL's the fucking backbone of the project. He sells and elevates my inanity as fell as I'm concerned.

 

[Ottoeight]

Although I suspect the authors to be against it we are starting to exceed the dreaded 9 month period for "only" one update. Since the narrative has to be split anyhow I agree to splitting it even more in favour of more regular releases. For example, the exhibition can be split into the introduction and the mandatory free roam in the first half (with a dramatic cliffhanger at the start of the exhibition) and a second update containing the show itself and the aftermath. Evenly split in 2000x2 renders. TD and GIL, please make it so.

Well, I wouldn't go that far...

 

[ffive]

In fact, I'd say the only real revelation we got was learning that she helped her husband cheat old folks out of their retirement and she feels extremely guilty about it.

Hey, we also learned that Edwin is literally second guy ever Rose has had sex with in her life, which is highly unexpected but potentially very pleasing development to some players.

 

[ProtoJoto]

Using that audition tape as a metaphor for the MC's mindset was an excellent idea, but I feel like it clashes with the earlier use of those scenes as straight up exposition. Weaving the interview clips into his day with Victoria implies that the MC is remembering them, that these snippets are parts that have stuck with him through the years and come to mind in similar circumstances.

I also felt the way it was handled was a little awkward: the blurry memories after what had seemed clear memories didn’t make much sense.

Imagine, if instead of having flashbacks scattered through the day, the MC, while waiting in Donavan’s studio, had spotted a picture of his mother on an old movie poster: triggering a flashback to the video he had found online. Interrupted shortly by “Mr. Donavan will see you now....” Scattering the rest of the flashbacks into the following conversation would have been an intense way for the scene to play out.

 

[notstaged]

literally second guy ever

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Killian drop a remark about her when Edwin asked August whether or not Rose works in the place on the day after her "audition" that she's a bit of a bore in bed?

 

[UmbralKnight]

The transitions afterward, however, are so jarring it honestly took me a little while to work out exactly what was happening. It goes from the two trash talking each other, to them making out in public, to them quietly cuddling alone in the VIP room.

for a veronica fan like me
yeah that was a bit disappointing especially considering how great the previous dance scene between the 2 was in the previous update
i was waiting for something great like that to happen again but they suddenly cut to the next scene
i had to double check to see if my game had bugged but hey any i will take any MORE veronica content over NO veronica content

 

[ffive]

It's also possible for the MC to transition his relationship with Mina from casual sex to something more meaningful, but it counterintuitively requires the MC being jealous of her, so I'm not sure if it's a genuine branch in her development or just a small diversion.

MC being jealous of Mina sets a flag that's then referenced quite a bit so yes, i'd expect this to be start of "Mina as exclusive gf" branch. I also don't think MC feeling possessive as the switch towards exclusive relationship with Mina is in any way counterintuitive..? Mina telegraphs almost openly during the threesome with Felicia that she wants MC to feel jealous and possessive about her, and she's nearly elated when he chooses to act like that during their threesome scene.

 

[ffive]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Killian drop a remark about her when Edwin asked August whether or not Rose works in the place on the day after her "audition" that she's a bit of a bore in bed?

I think he did, but given this new bit of information it's an open question if he was speaking from actual experience, or if it was just casual misogynistic shit based on nothing but "well she's frumpy single mom so she's probably boring in bed too". Plus, if Ian fucked Rose before she shows up at the club to meet Edwin then her apprehension about that event, something she mentions during the dinner talk, would be a bit off.

 

[poarvl]

Any scene unlocks?

 

[sunaboz]

Great post as always ename144 , you single-handedly gave us material to discuss for weeks :]. I'll reply to some small portion of it since it would take way too much time to address everything.

I'll start with the thing that somehow only you pointed out and that is - Rosalind scamming old people. I figured that no one besides me would care and was waiting for you to mention it. In my eyes people like Rosalind are human trash and that "character development" was a mistake. Before that revelation I really liked Rosalind (since you don't like her that didn't change much in your case) but now she's at the bottom of carnation's hierarchy and I want her to lose.

That decision by TD has made things much less interesting for me because as of now I'll be rooting for Felicia only (and before this update I wanted Rosalind to win despite being Felicia fan). At least she's ashamed of it and stopped doing it but the bitter taste remains.

(...)
Right off the bat, the whole premise is very weird to me. Why would the MC invite the Carnations to the concert? I know he's committed to uniting them, but this seems like a strange way to do it, and he clearly has no gameplan when they arrive. Plus, as Felicia notes, it's very last minute. More importantly, the MC knows Mina will be there. The implications of that were blindingly obvious to me, but apparently the MC somehow missed them because he doesn't even bother to coordinate a cover story with Hana, much less worry about who else might show up. The end result is that the event feels decidedly artificial even before it starts. (...)

IMO this could be strange only in the Mina-girlfriend route. Otherwise I don't see why would a healthy young man not want to be surrounded by 10/10 beauties with tits twice as big as Grace's. If that would make things slightly awkward then who cares, he knows Mina for 3 weeks only. Besides, I can see how his sadistic side might enjoy seeing how the fire that he started spreads :]. As for this being last minute... If they wouldn't come then no harm done.

Personally I found this very probable, especially since everyone was so busy earlier that they didn't have time to do the usual gathering of all carnations and this was the perfect (or should I say: last) opportunity to do it. So yeah, he didn't have the plan, so what? I see nothing wrong with TD's decision here.

(...)
As I implied above, I think this scene probably should have been gated by Mina seducing Veronica; Mina's actions seem a little too bold without that experience under her belt (...)

I strongly disagree, how is Mina seducing Veronica much different from Mina seducing Hana? Why that second scenario should be gated when for all we know Hana is more hot in Mina's eyes? You're a Veronica fan so I can understand why you would think that but your idea IMO is much worse than what TD did.

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And judging by the above, if anything Hana would be second on her women-to-do-list since they were more intimate than her with Veronica (unless there was some shower action in the gym that we didn't see).

 

[Takkatakka]

Man, the game has never looked better; you can tell where most of the time is spent on the development, as the girls actually look like they've been motion captured with how expressive their faces are, and the background details actually make the world look lived in, like characters going about their business in the background, or just cars passing by when characters are by or on a road. Even when you skip through a scene, it's like you're fast forwarding a movie rather than rapidly flipping through a bunch of static images. This really is one of the best looking games out there and it doesn't get enough credit in that area I feel like.

I pretty much wrote the same thing just the other day. It actually is a good idea to skip through the scenes after you read them completely at least once. The amount of fluid movement GIL3D can convey with a few static render is like...well...I don't know any other VN that does it this well.

Or all the little subtle (and less subtle) expressions that just add so much story and convey so much information on their own, like this one for example:

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He also makes some of the best "WTF" faces:

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[TD1900]

I strongly disagree, how is Mina seducing Veronica much different from Mina seducing Hana?

I don't want to put words into ename's mouth, but I do think it's a perception of nuance. Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold.

That distinction was in part intentional, but I was worried about how it would be read. There's a lot of Mina only scenes in this update, and without the crutch of a running narration, I can see how the latter might feel incongruent or out of character. So I can understand the thinking that flirting with Veronica could bridge those two states like a set of sapphic training wheels, but it's a question of what's to come in the future.

This might seem silly... but I was hoping playing the Veronica + Mina route would inform / give insight to the Hana + Mina path.

 

[ename144]

Does anyone know how to get the last Misc Scene where it says to Ignore everyone? i literally ignore everyone and i just get the Mina Scene ive even tried replaying the game from my Save before i started the Chapter does anyone know what Values I have to change to get the scene?

In order to eventually flirt with the bartender, I believe the MC needs to ignore Ian when he's sulking on his own. You can do this by either choosing not to go to him, or by not getting him to introspect in the first place. You also must not be officially dating Hana. If you meet those requirements you should get the option to hang out with Eve after the MC decides not to bro it up with Ian and Jacob.

Number two - What's the name of the BGM playing in the pork chops cooking scene? I could swear I heard it before, like, decades ago, but that's just me being senile, right?

If you open the Memories screen during a scene and click on the "Music" button, it will actually highlight which song is playing. According to the game, the song is "Mourning Dove" by Zachariah Hickman.

Sorry if im late to the party, but i need to ask: are there any advantages to making Hana your GF?

Sort of, but probably not the ones you're looking for. GF Hana allows the MC to avoid certain options on the grounds that he has a girlfriend. He can, for example, attend the art expo without having to fuck Felicia at the end. This is a rather niche reward to put it mildly, but it does provide some unique content.

It's likely the path will eventually get a unique scene or two with Hana that won't be available if you keep things casual, but for now it's mostly about roleplay options.

- Nicolette is "on loan" as much as Andrea (from Otto, August's fellow gangster);

Nico says she's "under new management;" that sounds a little more direct than merely being "on loan."

Regardless, my point is that the girls might have more or less freedom at the Club based on the specific terms of their loan. We know Nico is a 'special interest,' and that is apparently a real ordeal. It would stand to reason a girl could be a sort of 'anti-special interest' and have a relatively easier time of it in the Club. But this is just speculation on my part.

Hey, we also learned that Edwin is literally second guy ever Rose has had sex with in her life, which is highly unexpected but potentially very pleasing development to some players.

Point of order! That's only true if the MC has sex with Rose. If you turn down her deal and let Ian take your place in the second Exhibition, then Ian would get the number two slot. If the MC then reversed course and slept with Rose after her dinner in this update, he'd only be number three.

I'm glad we were able to iron out this crucial detail!

I think he did, but given this new bit of information it's an open question if he was speaking from actual experience, or if it was just casual misogynistic shit based on nothing but "well she's frumpy single mom so she's probably boring in bed too". Plus, if Ian fucked Rose before she shows up at the club to meet Edwin then her apprehension about that event, something she mentions during the dinner talk, would be a bit off.

It's certainly suggested that Ian did something to take advantage of Rose prior to her meeting the MC since he explicitly refutes the idea that he was "kind" to her. But that evidently stopped short of full intercourse. That doesn't seem implausible given that an MC who initially "takes advantage of Rose" will settle for stripping, groping and face fucking her.

I'll start with the thing that somehow only you pointed out and that is - Rosalind scamming old people. I figured that no one besides me would care and was waiting for you to mention it. In my eyes people like Rosalind are human trash and that "character development" was a mistake. Before that revelation I really liked Rosalind (since you don't like her that didn't change much in your case) but now she's at the bottom of carnation's hierarchy and I want her to lose.

That decision by TD has made things much less interesting for me because as of now I'll be rooting for Felicia only (and before this update I wanted Rosalind to win despite being Felicia fan). At least she's ashamed of it and stopped doing it but the bitter taste remains.

That's a valid point, this does erode Roslaind's "moral superiority" over the other Carnations a little bit. That could have been an interesting avenue to explore.

IMO this could be strange only in the Mina-girlfriend route. Otherwise I don't see why would a healthy young man not want to be surrounded by 10/10 beauties with tits twice as big as Grace's. If that would make things slightly awkward then who cares, he knows Mina for 3 weeks only. Besides, I can see how his sadistic side might enjoy seeing how the fire that he started spreads :]. As for this being last minute... If they wouldn't come then no harm done.

Eh, there's more to life than just being surrounded by eye candy. More importantly, the MC is the one insisting the Carnations bond over their own objections. Dragging them to a concert with no further game plan seems like a bad way to go about that. Mina being there just makes it worse, since she's an extra ball he'll need to juggle. Even if he doesn't really care about Mina, he's the one responsible if she learns about the Club and reacts badly.

I strongly disagree, how is Mina seducing Veronica much different from Mina seducing Hana? Why that second scenario should be gated when for all we know Hana is more hot in Mina's eyes? You're a Veronica fan so I can understand why you would think that but your idea IMO is much worse than what TD did.

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And judging by the above, if anything Hana would be second on her women-to-do-list since they were more intimate than her with Veronica (unless there was some shower action in the gym that we didn't see).

To me the key difference is that Hana is the one instigating the action on the MC's birthday, whereas Mina is not only instigating the action on her own this time, she's taking it to whole other level. Hana was just goofing around, whereas Mina is flat out trying to sleep with Hana.

I'm definitely not saying Mina wouldn't be interested in Hana. She absolutely would, especially if you triggered that scene in the NHIE game. But as we know, just because Mina has fantasies that doesn't mean she's ready to act on them all on her own. I just feel like she needed some more experience (or a push from someone else) before she was ready to take this particular plunge.

And I doubt my interest in Veronica is influencing my opinion here since I have no desire to share her with Mina.

 

[danieldam]

First off why the fuck is the veronica and mina scenes different routes for hana ? it makes no sense at all to me. Then i gotta say after replaying all the routes for solo events with some i wish that we would actually feel closer than if we just did a manwhore route. My mc who always picked veronica shouldn't be the same level as manwhore mc whos nice to her. Also mad that the mina and hana situation teased was just a kiss . Besides these complaints writing is still the best in its genre imo and models are hot af.World building is getting even better. Also wish we actually could have the mc fall in love with kathleen in the route

 

[Garen]

Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold.

I figured you were going for that when their kiss had Mina's theme playing. Almost obnoxiously when I was expecting something more demure and seductive.

I know some guys view Mina and Hana separately from the carnations but honestly I think they're all built of the same stock. Hana has been strikingly accepting of the darker side of the Club in everything she's been exposed to and Mina has always had a crazy streak to her which was simply never in the limelight because of her genuinely bubbly personality.

I knew she was off her rocker right from this scene. It was unnerving.

 

[IndigoHawk]

Great update! I played through once picking whatever I wanted, then checked with a mod to see what other branches there are. I feel like I glimpsed madness at the rock concert. There are so many branches! I worry about the sanity of the developers.

I like how many small different scenes there are even though it's getting really tough to have a canon playthrough. As always I enjoy how much character expressions change during a scene, even a small conversation. It's a good idea to CTRL through old scenes to get a sense of how much variation there is. If there's a character in the background and they are listening in, their expression will change. It's crazy. I think the funniest option was Rosalind dancing up on the bar in her sweater after checking after the bouncer wouldn't let her in and seeing how people respond. (But seriously no bouncer is turning her away haha). Maybe my canonical playthrough is the multiverse one where I'm in multiple states at the same time.

Perhaps the only real complaint I had about the rock concert is that I felt it should have more content on the Hana path, simply because it was her concert. But there is a lot of content here and it's definitely worth checking out. We learn more about side characters (the bartender, the Club girls, etc) but only if we take those routes. That's kind of why it's a shame that so many paths are exclusive. The players know a lot more about these characters than MC does in any playthrough, and some players know a lot more than others depending on how many saves they have and whether they cheat.

Ian deserves more credit. I feel this update again shows his good side. He saved the Carnation Social Hour by bringing in some weed and it created a funny smoky scene (visually it looked great!) with everyone lying to Mina while spilling details. Oh and she had a callback to her earlier run in with the police. She had another good moment earlier when she questions if MC is more popular than she is since he knows so many people, haha. Anyway, even though Ian saved party, he still had to leave it. Sure Ian deserves to be in the doghouse for what he did to Mina but I feel like that's starting to be old history because Mina is doing more or less fine now.

I understand from a porn game design perspective why Ian gets sidelined so much (brought in then booted out of scenes so MC can shine without another guy there) but it does feel a bit unnatural from the story perspective of Ian and MC being so close.

I think my biggest complaint about the update overall is that the MC needs to stop being a little bitch. So his mom calls up, and he immediately drops what he's doing and takes Ian to go check out what's going on. That's great.

Then he gets there. His mom's a mess. And what is his first thought? He's freaking out because his worlds are colliding and he's worried that his mom will fall off her pedestal and he (and Ian) will see his mom as a slut, like the women they're treating like dirt at the club. So he stops her from saying anything and puts her to bed and leaves. His focus seems mostly on how this is impacting him, not what's going on with his mom. He said some of the right things in his speech but dropped the ball. And he's hoping she'll forget in the morning? Pathetic.

Sure, just let her sleep it off. Or maybe stay with her, sleep on the couch. Reinforce that MC is there for her and isn't going to run off. Stop acting like there's some problem with his mom doing porn to keep a roof over his head. And even if she has some dark secret, like she enjoyed herself while making porn, stop acting like it matters. Who cares. Have some loyalty and respect for her. Maybe tell her thank you and that she's a great mom. Oh and also stop lying to her and being a patronizing asshole acting like his mom can't handle the truth but the MC is so much better than her when he's being used as a tool for laughs by the club. From what we've seen, his mom (and the Carnations) have more agency than the MC. He drifted along and got roped into this for no reason at all really whereas they made tough choices. MC is a privileged tourist.

The big choice at the end is whether MC is going to focus on the porn Victoria made and violate his image of her as a mother of if he's going to man up and delete it.

Seems like an easy choice although I feel the canonical path is that MC has zero respect for himself or his mom and keeps pursuing the videos. Anyway to be clear this isn't a complaint about the writing. I like that the MC is his own character and this is what he's been struggling with for years and that as the player I'm disgusted with how weak he is sometimes.

Also MC did that thing where he says "I know" instead of letting his mom talk, so we don't actually know what Victoria was upset about. But I do know that Grace has gone from "she's hot but out of respect for Ian MC wouldn't" to "Ian better tell Grace to shut her mouth before MC shuts it for her and deals with the consequences later".

As a bit of an aside, I am curious if it makes sense what Grace said. It doesn't seem like Victoria was refusing to help or that Victoria has some special leverage to make Ian comply. It felt like Grace went nuclear for no reason, more to drive drama than anything else. Looking at the scene again, maybe Grace is frustrated with Ian and lashed out when Victoria tried to keep the lie going, like Grace has bigger things on her plate than protecting Victoria's image so she's just going to lash out and call her a whore and demand she help rather than remain civil. So I think I'd like to see more of Grace's total lack of grace in dealing with situations and how that's making her life worse.

I think my last thought on that is that as the club starts to become a more personal threat to his real life, MC needs to reevaluate what his priorities are and why he's even doing this. His mom is crying and drinking herself to sleep. It's time to pull the plug. Wrap up the Carnation contest, sell the house, move. We've seen some of this problem growing earlier, like Kathleen invading his life. I'm hoping that this night with Victoria is enough to wake him up.

Aside from that, I was thinking about the domestic life scenes with Rosalind. I feel that the similar scenes with Veronica and Felicia had more emotional impact but those were tough acts to follow. I still feel it was pretty good, especially with Rosalind being so enthusiastic once she gets going, with her on the couch riding him. I also feel that Rosalind gets shortchanged a little because she's always been the character that's most blurred with MC's mom. So there's a certain amount of Rosalind is the mom character more than her own character. This is reinforced by having blurred memories of his mom's videos seeping through while having the date with Rosalind. So I feel it's kind of a conscious choice from the writing to blur Rosalind with Victoria, which just means she doesn't stand as much as a character on her own. So I think that's why I liked seeing more of Rose's traits, like she when she's high and overshares and when she's drunk and gets a bit wild.

Also Andrea is dumb but she's a good egg. Ha! I like how the music is used as a cue, like picking the more flirty options, the scene music changes.

Going back to Mina, I like this approach that she's becoming more active, like Veronica encouraging her to take charge (again shoutout to Veronica as such a good switch), and now Mina is the one approaching Hana. She's quickly becoming unleashed with a growing appetite. A couple updates ago Mina was feeling a bit blah once she was no longer the forbidden fruit and was game for anything. I wasn't sure where she could go from there that was interesting. Personally even her threesome with Felicia felt a bit meh, like it was visually great but wasn't that compelling for her character or story, and was the least meaningful of the options for Felicia's night. But now I'm feeling more on board. It's probably just because Mina was making out with a hesitant Hana but I don't see a problem with that. Also I like that Hana is a bit more hesitant and that it fits with her character based on what we know of her past.

Lastly sometimes I find that with these long running porn games that I kind of a reach a point where it's difficult to get reinvested in what's happening. There's just a moment where it's too much effort to get back into the story after the long wait between updates. Fortunately Pale Carnations is still going strong. Great job, and happy new year!

 

[Doggor]

I don't want to put words into ename's mouth, but I do think it's a perception of nuance. Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold.

That distinction was in part intentional, but I was worried about how it would be read. There's a lot of Mina only scenes in this update, and without the crutch of a running narration, I can see how the latter might feel incongruent or out of character. So I can understand the thinking that flirting with Veronica could bridge those two states like a set of sapphic training wheels, but it's a question of what's to come in the future.

This might seem silly... but I was hoping playing the Veronica + Mina route would inform / give insight to the Hana + Mina path.

I might actually pass out when the Mina x Hana stuff happens in future updates.
Genuinely looking forward to it like a giddy child waiting for christmas, despite knowing it's a way's away.

Just wanted to tell you to keep it up with the Lesbian scenes boss man, Good shit.

 

[sunaboz]

Seems strange to argue with the author himself, but...

(...)
Mina needs a bit of prodding to go after Veronica, and when she does, it's not even-handed. It's pretty clumsy. When she targets Hana, she's bold. (...)

That's because Veronica is imposing and so far the only intimate relations she's had with Mina was when she was touching her professionally during their exercises. We have no reason to believe that Veronica herself has taken the initiative and shown interest in Mina and if not for Edwin she wouldn't even know that Veronica might want to "play for the other team" (same goes for Veronica).

We also have this bit:
"Despite her egregious flirting at the gym, she likely wrote Mina off as an improbability. This was my chance to give the gals a little push."
Before that push Mina didn't read Veronica's touching as flirting since Veronica herself was very subtle about it and didn't even think there was a chance she could get further with her.

Meanwhile Hana and Mina had already had some steamy action and Hana herself admitted she had lesbian sex so Mina wanting a piece of action is much more probable in my eyes than Mina going after Veronica, who - for all she knows, Edwin knows worse than Mina does (since he barely goes to the gym). This is especially true if Mina had a threesome with Felicia.

(...)
Eh, there's more to life than just being surrounded by eye candy. More importantly, the MC is the one insisting the Carnations bond over their own objections. Dragging them to a concert with no further game plan seems like a bad way to go about that. (...)

There certainly is but for Edwin this might be the last chance to truly let loose before he'll have to study, study and study some more (medicine is no joke, besides physics probably the hardest thing to study). So I find it very likely that he would want to use the situation to his advantage and use his leverage while he can (after all, when 4 weeks are over carnations should have no reason to spend time with Edwin).

As for no game plan - I see inviting them to a concert much more appealing and fun (and well thought out) to do than their usual diner-talks as if they were at a wake. And all of them could have refused or say that it's too sudden just like Felicia did but they didn't (which I find very probable, even in Rosalind's case who had nothing better to do other than reading another book).

As for Hana-Mina thing see my response to TD.