VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[SageBestGirl]

I was surprised by this game. I thought it would be just another harem game, but Hana's route incredibly surprised me. It has an incredible romance, lots of deep and striking dialogue, sensational chemistry, and beautiful scenes. For me, Hana it's the best LI, as she essentially carries the romance (Mina's route is also very good at romance, but I prefer Hana's). The first date between MC and Hana was my favorite part of entire game.
I think it's beautiful that even with all this dirty part of club, Hana and MC identify with their origins and promise fidelity outside the club (I hope that in the end they both get rid of their jobs in club and are 100% free to love each other).
Congratulations to dev for an incredible game and for creating an incredible LI. Hana is in my top 5 favorite AVN girls, and i await anxiously for next updates.

 

[GamingSavant]

You know, I've been thinking about this and I think it would actually be funny for a run after the game is finished: What if there's an ending where Edwin is just a massive stick in the mud and doesn't get close to anyone and doesn't have sex more than he has to? There is clearly dialogue and extra scenes based around him turning down sex several points in the game so far, so it feels like there is an extra story in that path.

 

[Discrepancy]

BTW, since we're nearing exhibition 3 what do you guys think about this problem I've mentioned over 3 years ago:

Now that we know from Sophia that Allison might have won not only because she was the best but also (or mainly) because of her future use for the club it sheds new light on this issue.

Pretty sure Kathleen wouldn't let it end at week 3, I even think she already addressed that and said she won't, but I might be misremembering

 

[Meiri]

You know, I've been thinking about this and I think it would actually be funny for a run after the game is finished: What if there's an ending where Edwin is just a massive stick in the mud and doesn't get close to anyone and doesn't have sex more than he has to? There is clearly dialogue and extra scenes based around him turning down sex several points in the game so far, so it feels like there is an extra story in that path.

Ah yes, the secret monk ending: if you reject enough sex scenes, Edwin decides to abandon everything and go to the mountains to train with some monks; after several years, he comes back to the club with a group of monks, beats everyone, and finally frees all the girls, though he still refuses all notions of sex and simply goes back to the mountains.

 

[ffive]

What if there's an ending where Edwin is just a massive stick in the mud and doesn't get close to anyone and doesn't have sex more than he has to?

Ah, the canon Edwin, then.

 

[Leinad_Sevla]

Pretty hard and challenging. Requires quite some ingenuity. We're working with stiff assets here, making them feel fluid is not easy.

That really sucks. It also proves my suspicion as to why we don´t see it more often. It really helps the scene feel more dynamic and, well...hot. Thanks for the answer and please do more of those cumshots everytime you feel like it, they are very welcomed.

 

[GamingSavant]

Ah yes, the secret monk ending: if you reject enough sex scenes, Edwin decides to abandon everything and go to the mountains to train with some monks; after several years, he comes back to the club with a group of monks, beats everyone, and finally frees all the girls, though he still refuses all notions of sex and simply goes back to the mountains.

 

[johnysanchez01]

I'm not sure what those previous takes are, and your post is kind of confusing. But I can say for sure that Felicia didn’t use her open relationship as a cover. She knew she’d have to go for broke if she became a carnation. It’s also not about the art school — the school is a moment of revelation.

Of what? That despite her high social status, Felicia doesn’t have real, independent power to make things happen. That power was only ever given to her by Elias at his whim. So Felicia decided to put everything at the stake (which is quite a lot) for a chance to climb the ladder and gain real power. Is it dumb? Most people would say yes. Edwin points out how dumb it is, and Felicia kind of agrees... but man, TD’s writing is deceptive.

I thought I had it all figured out about that mental issue Edwin has regarding his mother’s past and how he perceives her — a narrative where Victoria has a role of a martyr who suffered for him. And that video with Victoria and Donovan should have been a distortion of that narrative. Yet Edwin’s internal monologue he had while watching the video surprised me. It wasn’t what I expected. While it doesn’t exactly contradict the 'matyr narrative' theory, it doesn’t quite fit with it either.

Then there’s Elias himself. I used to think the reason he refused Felicia’s request about the art school was to remind her of the dynamic in their relationship. But now that we’ve gotten a taste of his character — a glimpse of who he truly is — it doesn’t fit that interpretation either. It makes me wonder what was the true motive for Elias to refuse Felicia's plea and what kind of personalities the other patrons had before entering the club, and whether the club changed them in any way.

What I’m trying to say is that I’m not going to judge how stupid Felicia’s grand decision was, even if it looks like she’s completely failed right now. And I also don’t understand why you’d think inviting Elias is a plot hole. Elias is powerful and wealthy? Sure but so are they, except he’s just one man while they’re a group. The way the club maintains its secrecy is also explained in the game.

I appreciate the well-thought out response.

For me, Elias refusing to support the art school could easily just be related to the expenses behind supporting such a school. It wouldn't be cheap, even for a guy like Elias, so it could easily be a thing where Elias didn't fully understand how valuable the art school was to her (after all she keeps that part of herself hidden). There are enough details missing about this situation that it could be for a number reasons.

As for the Elias plot hole thing, my view is that trying to piss off Elias is a *borderline* plot hole because it doesn't make sense that they'd take on the risk of potentially drawing the ire of a powerful wealthy individual. Trying to blackmail him would be an insane gamble that could backfire horribly, Elias might lose his political career but they'd risk criminal charges. They can't "quietly" deal with him if he's uncooperative, he's too wealthy and connected for people to not notice. He makes one tip to the media and its over. The public would be all over a bunch of rich people running shady underground brothels (just see the Epstein and Diddy cases). There are no doubt plenty of resentful women who worked there that would cooperate with an investigation considering how they've been treated at the club.

I think people are bit too forgiving with how dumb Felicia's decision was because they're seeing it from the perspective of the protagonist who gets to fuck her, but objectively her decision is a crazy one. Even if she succeeded, it's not like Elias wouldn't notice Felicia somehow getting a ton of money to fund a school (that she asked him to fund before) out of nowhere.

 

[TD1900]

I think people are bit too forgiving with how dumb Felicia's decision was because they're seeing it from the perspective of the protagonist who gets to fuck her, but objectively her decision is a crazy one. Even if she succeeded, it's not like Elias wouldn't notice Felicia somehow getting a ton of money to fund a school (that she asked him to fund before) out of nowhere.

She's not doing it to fund the school. That's dead and gone.

 

[slightchance]

Spoiler: Dalia

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Intense write-up.

As for Dalia, it got me thinking that it's actually difficult to pull off a genuine people-pleaser. It looks like every character, no matter how significant or unimportant they are to the overarching story, "has to" explain themselves and their actions nowadays or the player (viewer/reader) won't be able to accept their portrayal as genuine. Maybe not every action needs a two page long background editorial to back up what's happening on screen. Maybe a story isn't allowed to waste any time at all.

It's kinda funny when you think about it: people in the real world behave irrationally on a constant basis without feeling obligated to give us a reason. We ourselves have to bring order to chaos.

PS: I believe Andrea's reaction was rather sweet and honest. That's not how you react when you're only aiming for brownie points.

 

[GamingSavant]

I appreciate the well-thought out response.

For me, Elias refusing to support the art school could easily just be related to the expenses behind supporting such a school. It wouldn't be cheap, even for a guy like Elias, so it could easily be a thing where Elias didn't fully understand how valuable the art school was to her (after all she keeps that part of herself hidden). There are enough details missing about this situation that it could be for a number reasons.

As for the Elias plot hole thing, my view is that trying to piss off Elias is a *borderline* plot hole because it doesn't make sense that they'd take on the risk of potentially drawing the ire of a powerful wealthy individual. Trying to blackmail him would be an insane gamble that could backfire horribly, Elias might lose his political career but they'd risk criminal charges. They can't "quietly" deal with him if he's uncooperative, he's too wealthy and connected for people to not notice. He makes one tip to the media and its over. The public would be all over a bunch of rich people running shady underground brothels (just see the Epstein and Diddy cases). There are no doubt plenty of resentful women who worked there that would cooperate with an investigation considering how they've been treated at the club.

I think people are bit too forgiving with how dumb Felicia's decision was because they're seeing it from the perspective of the protagonist who gets to fuck her, but objectively her decision is a crazy one. Even if she succeeded, it's not like Elias wouldn't notice Felicia somehow getting a ton of money to fund a school (that she asked him to fund before) out of nowhere.

Felicia is doing this to be her own person outside of Elias's shadow; to be independent of him instead of just a bird in a gilded cage. The School shutting down and Elias refusing to help it cuz it had no benefit for him whatsoever was what made her realize that she had to have her own power in order to truly get what she wants, because otherwise she only gets what Elias is willing to give her.

 

[sunaboz]

Ah yes, the secret monk ending: if you reject enough sex scenes, Edwin decides to abandon everything and go to the mountains to train with some monks; after several years, he comes back to the club with a group of monks, beats everyone, and finally frees all the girls, though he still refuses all notions of sex and simply goes back to the mountains.

On that note I loved this part of dialogue with Sophia:

Sophia: "...you are a deviant. You grabbed my hand."
"...."
Edwin: "Are you fucking with me?"

"........."
"......"
Sophia: "...yes."

Edwin: "Dr. Van Doren was right. You are funny."

Sophia: "I told you."

 

[bonerland]

Nah, my main route is holding out for Veronica.

But honestly, turning down Sophia and Allison wasn't hard. Sophia never offered (we have a terrible rapport since my MC doesn't trust her and she's some flavor of insane), and the Allison scene couldn't be skeevier if Jim interrupted it to do more coke off Allison's ass halfway through. That's not what I'm looking for in a sex scene.

I do hope, that after telling Edwin she never wants to see him again, she says something like "I wish we could have met under different circumstances" later in her route. She really is showing the best route if you want to be a romantic.

 

[Turret]

Sorry, Turret, but I gotta go with Occam's Razor here: the simplest answer that covers the facts is usually the best. I don't know exactly what is going on with Sophia, but she is not right in the head.

Hi ename144!
While Wilhelm von Occam´s idea is a nifty tool, your use of it here fall s prey to not available to you important info. Since you have bad relations with Sophia, your Edwin does not gain some insights other Edwins do.
That some black ops sh... like mental imprints was done on Sophia, be it volunteered or ordered to is currently unclear, is very obvious if you chose her path. Also that Sophia is adapting to it, starting to throw her weight around. As I mentioned in former posts, I theorise that Sophia was honed to be Abel´s right hand, sword and successor, added to it secret service level mental work and spec training to be able to function in the club without too much undue attention.
Given that Sophia remembers alot of time with Abel fondly, I think she volunteered to help bring down the Club and esp. Chuck. But she, probably even Abel, underestimated what a mental workover of an already eccentric genius-level mind would bring about. You cannot force a mind continously to do things he never had inclinations of, stuff compatible with the core personality
will merge, incompatible things will be rejected/erased over time. This is what happens here, because with Sophia in a few year becoming Abel´s successor leads to her start stretching her own wings. Currently she and her imprints function like they should, but Sophia is injecting her own spin. She wants to win, but her own designs are beginning to take shape.

Spoiler

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I estimate that the mind work and special traning done with/for/on Sophia has the reason to "round out" some of her skill sets, enable her to do things she does not like/want to do and shield her from suspicion/work undercover in the club. That something was done can be seen here.

Spoiler

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Step by step we get more info about what really goes on with Chuck/Club and Abel/Sophia. It is a shadow war to the end, both sides willing to do what "has to be done". More later.

 

[ffive]

On that note I loved this part of dialogue with Sophia:

Sophia: "...you are a deviant. You grabbed my hand."
"...."
Edwin: "Are you fucking with me?"

"........."
"......"
Sophia: "...yes."

Edwin: "Dr. Van Doren was right. You are funny."

Sophia: "I told you."

I can't not appreciate a fellow hand holding shunner, this much is true.

 

[strangelandQQ]

After the final scene of presenting the carnations to Elias, I knew what the perfect ending would be

Spoiler

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Jokes aside, I'm amazed how the authors manage to evoke such hatred in me towards certain characters. First Grace, now Chuck and old hag.

 

[Khan merry]

Took me a few days, but I finally replayed this game from the beginning up to the latest update and damn, it just keeps getting better every time. I absolutely love diving into the finer details, whether it's reading the dialogue or watching the subtle animations.

TD’s writing is on another level. The characters, the wit, the drama, the dialogue it’s all so cinematic. It had me laughing and anxious at 3 a.m., man.

And GIL’s art? Pure chef’s kiss. The subtle details and the way everything moves bring the characters and scenes to life in such a natural, immersive way.

Honestly, I don’t even know what more I can add that hasn’t already been said about this masterpiece. Looking at Ch4 up 5, and up 6… it feels like we’re heading toward the peak of what a PC experience can be and it's not even the climax yet.

Kinda wild that this is one of my first AVNs, because now I’m totally spoiled by greatness. My standards are way too high now, lol.

 

[YandereThrillSeeker]

why is gofile and mega size difference 1 gig

 

[Ozymandias037]

Only thing I've drank in my youth as bad as malt liquor 40s is Mad Dog (MD) 20/20. If I see some of this in Pale Carnations I'm going to bust a gut. Be funny to find out it's Katherine's favorite drink.

View attachment 5312868

Ha! I have some Mad Dog memories too! I think one of my best friends described it best: "Delightfully chemical-flavored with a subtle note of asphalt in the finish."

Happy Chapter 4 Update 6 everyone! I've played through a solid chunk of the game now (though it's sufficiently varied that I don't I've seen everything), so it's time to figure out how I feel about it. I think on a narrative level, it's extremely good. There are a lot of moving parts here, but they fit together well and more importantly they come together to sell a pivotal moment of the story in unmistakable style. And as I all to often fail to mention, the art is fantastic, always highlighting the feelings of the various characters and finding clever ways to frame the action.

However, as good as the story and character work is, I do feel like the gameplay lets it down a bit because for all the choices available to us, the update is unavoidably about the cruel hedonism that is the Carnation Club. That's not to say there are no moments of levity or sincere tenderness; there are, and some of them are quite good. But those moments are short, isolated, and all too often restricted to very specific paths. Most importantly, though, almost none of those moments do anything to second guess Kathleen's attitude in her moment of triumph, and that definitely stings.

The end result is a good update that I didn't enjoy playing. Of course, given my laughably vanilla tastes I think it's fair to say I was never going to find this update fun. But even in comparison to previous Exhibitions, it didn't feel like my actions made much difference this time, at least not within the Exhibition. I don't know if that's a result of splitting the Exhibition into two parts or me wanting to get the "belly of the whale" portion over as soon as possible - or maybe I've been misreading where the story was going the whole time. We'll have to see what happens next. For now, I'd say I liked the update, but not as much as I was hoping.

So much for the generalities, let's get down to brass tacks.

Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - Kathleen

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - The Club

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - The MC

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - Victoria

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - Sophia

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - The Carnations

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - Hana

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - Mina

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - Killian

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - The House Girls

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - Minor Branching

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Spoiler: Ch4Up6 - Bugs

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Okay, I think that does it for this update. Hopefully we'll be back again before too long to wrap up Chapter 4.

tl;dr A good update with lots of plot progression and plenty of lewd content, but not a lot of variety for those who don't like the Club's brand of entertainment

As always, this is a fantastic debrief and reaction post! Thank you for taking so much time to write out your thoughts and feelings on the update. I always like reading these in-depth analyses and comparing your reactions to my own.

Hi ename144!
Brushing up the on the holy shine, aren´t you? Taking the white path through the orgy.

Well, you never developed a rapport with her, that starts to change quite a bit of what is happening now. Sophia is the most important non-Main LI character going forward. By the way, our lovely bundle of contradictions is NOT insane. Part is her eccentrism, which I expected to show, hats up for TD1900 who wrote it nicely, if fitting it to the storyline with a dark bend by personality imprints and special training from the secret service sphere andI the mentioned imprints/training done so Sophia can function to full extend in Kath and Chucks diabolical den.
Personally I know a couple eccentrics, so some behaviour of Sophia is no biggie for me and we can see in game that Sophia is a cute, nice woman in an extremly problematic position, who should still not be underestimated. I theorise both Abel and Sophia have imprints done to stave off the influence of Kath, Chuck and the others. I think TD has some surprises more for us in his bag. I estimate Abel and Sophia underestimated what these imprints and training would do to them longterm. They might win this war with Chuck, Kath and the Club, but at what personal cost?More tomorrow, because it is really late where I live.

It's been said before, but I agree with it: Even assuming you're right about what's going on with Sophia, I feel like "artificial personality imprints" is really just one particular flavor of insane. Normal, sane people don't have those, y'know? That's the whole reason for the term "brainwashing."

BTW, since we're nearing exhibition 3 what do you guys think about this problem I've mentioned over 3 years ago:

Now that we know from Sophia that Allison might have won not only because she was the best but also (or mainly) because of her future use for the club it sheds new light on this issue.

I wonder if the game is built in such a way that each Exhibition has a Carnation who just can't win that week? For example, it is (at this moment) kind of hard to picture Felicia winning this week, given the absolute pummeling her emotions took.

But that being said, I admit I haven't played through multiple times trying to test this theory.

 

[Khan merry]

Ngl there are so many things to talk about in this update idk where to begin