VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[pinuz1]

Maybe, but I find those sort of semi-tragic endings tend to be less enjoyable in practice than they appear to be on paper. Then again, I'm a big softy so I suspect I'll be rather sad if there's no way to get a happy ending for everyone (Kathleen and some of the other Club characters not included, if we want to get technical).

Of course, it may depend on what we mean by happy. My threshold is simply that the characters would be in a position to move forward to better things. That may be tricky to adjudicate, though. Consider, for example, an ending where Felicia abandons her dreams of being a wealthy socialite (be it as a wife or as an information broker) but instead puts her other talents to use in more direct ways (as an artist, manager or something similar). I'd consider that a plausible happy ending, but I'm not sure Felicia herself would agree with my take - and depending on how it was presented, either of us could be right.

Basically, I want an ending where, assuming we make the right choices, the events of the game can be counted as a net plus for all the main girls (again, excluding Kathleen but let's include Ian for good measure). But that's always going to depend on how you tally up the pluses and minuses of the experience. For now, I'll just keep waiting with my fingers crossed.

Yea I agree, I'm not naive enough to believe we'll get an ending where everyone fully wins (Veronica makes her gym stay afloat, Rose deals with her debts, and Felicia climbs the social ladder) but at least an ending where all 3 of the girls are moving forward and not stuck as whore would make me more than happy. Of course whatever Carnation ends up winning will get their wish granted, tho at this point I'm not even sure if Felicia winning would be as beneficial for her now that Elias is part of the club, maybe she'll ask for a change on her prize if she wins? An ending where the 2 carnations that don't end up winning still manage to move on with their lives, or get helped by Edwin somehow would be my ideal situation.

Mina and Hana are mostly safe when it comes to a happy ending, Mina could very well never appear again in the story and even if she'd get a bit sad if Edwin ghosted her, she'll move on with her life as a model and be happy. Hana on the other hand will not take Edwin cheating on her lightly but she can always sell her part of the club to Kath and move on with her life with a shitload of money, not like I can't imagine bad endings for both of them but the Carnations are the ones that are in actual danger of ending up on really shitty situations.

 

[lustforsex]

Maybe, but I find those sort of semi-tragic endings tend to be less enjoyable in practice than they appear to be on paper. Then again, I'm a big softy so I suspect I'll be rather sad if there's no way to get a happy ending for everyone (Kathleen and some of the other Club characters not included, if we want to get technical).

Of course, it may depend on what we mean by happy. My threshold is simply that the characters would be in a position to move forward to better things. That may be tricky to adjudicate, though. Consider, for example, an ending where Felicia abandons her dreams of being a wealthy socialite (be it as a wife or as an information broker) but instead puts her other talents to use in more direct ways (as an artist, manager or something similar). I'd consider that a plausible happy ending, but I'm not sure Felicia herself would agree with my take - and depending on how it was presented, either of us could be right.

Basically, I want an ending where, assuming we make the right choices, the events of the game can be counted as a net plus for all the main girls (again, excluding Kathleen but let's include Ian for good measure). But that's always going to depend on how you tally up the pluses and minuses of the experience. For now, I'll just keep waiting with my fingers crossed.

I agree that the concept of a "happy ending" is very vague in a game like this. I guess I'm more referring to the idea that, for example, the carnations won't fall to the bottom. And I think a "happy ending" for everyone should have a price. So you might ask, how can it be a "happy ending" if you have to pay for it? Now that's a good question... That's probably why I like this game, because it doesn't divide everything into black and white

 

[4-kun]

I agree that the concept of a "happy ending" is very vague in a game like this. I guess I'm more referring to the idea that, for example, the carnations won't fall to the bottom. And I think a "happy ending" for everyone should have a price. So you might ask, how can it be a "happy ending" if you have to pay for it? Now that's a good question... That's probably why I like this game, because it doesn't divide everything into black and white

I agree. Given how things are going, it just doesn’t seem like the kind of story where everyone can get a happy ending.

Well, unless you’re playing the total sadist route (which is totally fine in its own right, btw), I just can’t imagine you’ll be able to save everyone — it’s just not that type of game. On the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with trying and seeing how it all plays out in the end.

For me, it made sense to define a goal early on — decide which characters I care about the most, play smart, and, if necessary, play a little dirty to protect them. I still try to do some good where I can, as long as it doesn’t interfere with my main objective.

That way, I can at least secure the best possible outcome in the scenario I’ve chosen… hopefully

 

[penzor]

i just want to impregnate my goth lolita gf hana and have a wholesome family

 

[hitman2511]

i just want to impregnate my goth lolita gf hana and have a wholesome family

And I want to impregnate both Hana and Mina.

 

[ename144]

I agree that the concept of a "happy ending" is very vague in a game like this. I guess I'm more referring to the idea that, for example, the carnations won't fall to the bottom. And I think a "happy ending" for everyone should have a price. So you might ask, how can it be a "happy ending" if you have to pay for it? Now that's a good question... That's probably why I like this game, because it doesn't divide everything into black and white

Again, it's really in the eye of the beholder. From my point of view the "price" would paid by enduring Kathleen's bullshit for four weeks: the MC may get a thrill out of her sadism, but I do not. I'm doing all this to try to salvage something worthwhile from the MC's Faustian bargain. Getting to the end only to discover that the losers of the contest are permanent wrecks would be a real shaggy dog story.

That's just me, however, and determining what constitutes "something worthwhile" is quite tricky. There's a lot of room for nuance here - but that's likely part of why I get so jumpy when the MC seems to blandly accept everything going on in the Club this time around. Anyway, fingers still crossed!

 

[Turret]

Yea I agree, I'm not naive enough to believe we'll get an ending where everyone fully wins (Veronica makes her gym stay afloat, Rose deals with her debts, and Felicia climbs the social ladder) but at least an ending where all 3 of the girls are moving forward and not stuck as whore would make me more than happy.

I agree that the concept of a "happy ending" is very vague in a game like this. I guess I'm more referring to the idea that, for example, the carnations won't fall to the bottom. And I think a "happy ending" for everyone should have a price. So you might ask, how can it be a "happy ending" if you have to pay for it? Now that's a good question... That's probably why I like this game, because it doesn't divide everything into black and white

I agree. Given how things are going, it just doesn’t seem like the kind of story where everyone can get a happy ending.

Well, unless you’re playing the total sadist route (which is totally fine in its own right, btw), I just can’t imagine you’ll be able to save everyone — it’s just not that type of game. On the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with trying and seeing how it all plays out in the end.

For me, it made sense to define a goal early on — decide which characters I care about the most, play smart, and, if necessary, play a little dirty to protect them. I still try to do some good where I can, as long as it doesn’t interfere with my main objective.

That way, I can at least secure the best possible outcome in the scenario I’ve chosen… hopefully

i just want to impregnate my goth lolita gf hana and have a wholesome family

Hi!
I think we all agree that a 100% happy end path is very unlikely to exist in PC. And I theorise that such a path would be very convoluted to walk without a walkthrough, hitting it blind with your choices.
Like you and as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think the various happy end paths will either have a bittersweet "extra" or be of the two third or three quarters good, rest bad (there is always a price to be paid) type of ending.

I see the strategy to follow through the game similar to 4-kun : Set your main goals early (e.g. it is very clear that unless you play as..., sadist Edwin, the Club needs severe changes if we want to keep it existing), look who you like best and try to get them through. I also try to do as much good as I can, as long as it does not negatively impact my main directives.
As an example, in my 3 "head canon" playthroughs our hero sometimes chooses the hard options despite not wanting to, but knowing he cannot e.g. have too low trust from the PC leadership.

As for penzor s ending wish, I would add that I would like to impregnate Hana, Felicia and Sophia and have wholesome families with them in their respective playthroughs.

 

[Chakas]

I agree. Given how things are going, it just doesn’t seem like the kind of story where everyone can get a happy ending.

Well, unless you’re playing the total sadist route (which is totally fine in its own right, btw), I just can’t imagine you’ll be able to save everyone — it’s just not that type of game. On the other hand, there’s nothing wrong with trying and seeing how it all plays out in the end.

For me, it made sense to define a goal early on — decide which characters I care about the most, play smart, and, if necessary, play a little dirty to protect them. I still try to do some good where I can, as long as it doesn’t interfere with my main objective.

That way, I can at least secure the best possible outcome in the scenario I’ve chosen… hopefully

I think there should be a "happy" ending for "everyone", not one that everyone gain what they want, but one that no one end up in rock bottom with a nice epilogue. But of course I want this kinda of ending to be hard to achieve, like

one winner, the other two fucked =easy
One winner, one good to go and the last one fucked =medium
3 of them good but none fully wins= hard*
one winner, the other two good to go = very hard**

*for those that can't decide which girl they want, but can turn into ending 1and 2 depending on choices etc or even badly for all girls

**Can end badly for all girls and protag

 

[4-kun]

I think there should be a "happy" ending for "everyone", not one that everyone gain what they want, but one that no one end up in rock bottom with a nice epilogue. But of course I want this kinda of ending to be hard to achieve, like

one winner, the other two fucked =easy
One winner, one good to go and the last one fucked =medium
3 of them good but none fully wins= hard*
one winner, the other two good to go = very hard**

*for those that can't decide which girl they want, but can turn into ending 1and 2 depending on choices etc or even badly for all girls

**Can end badly for all girls and protag

Yeah, I get what you mean, and I’d love to see that kind of “earned” happy ending too — one that feels balanced and comes with real sacrifices.

That said, I just don’t see any signs of such an outcome yet. The MC is smart and capable, sure, but he doesn’t really have much power within the organization, nor has he shown any real ambition to shake the system. As of now, I don’t see him being able to fulfill or even minimize the risk of any of the big players getting involved.

And when it comes to “happy endings for everyone,” that’s where it gets messy. For example, if Chuck goes down, does Grace deserve to go down with him — or lose her son just because he chose the other side? She’s not exactly mother of the year, but she’s not evil.

 

[ffive]

i just want to impregnate my goth lolita gf hana and have a wholesome family

As long as the father of the bride is a literal, unrepentant pimp, the wholesomeness seems a bit of wishful thinking.

 

[Kameri]

it's a bit early to talk about endings is it not?

 

[Ottoeight]

it's a bit early to talk about endings is it not?

Definitely. A few years, I guess.

 

[Discrepancy]

Hi!
I think we all agree that a 100% happy end path is very unlikely to exist in PC. And I theorise that such a path would be very convoluted to walk without a walkthrough, hitting it blind with your choices.
Like you and as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think the various happy end paths will either have a bittersweet "extra" or be of the two third or three quarters good, rest bad (there is always a price to be paid) type of ending.

I see the strategy to follow through the game similar to 4-kun : Set your main goals early (e.g. it is very clear that unless you play as..., sadist Edwin, the Club needs severe changes if we want to keep it existing), look who you like best and try to get them through. I also try to do as much good as I can, as long as it does not negatively impact my main directives.
As an example, in my 3 "head canon" playthroughs our hero sometimes chooses the hard options despite not wanting to, but knowing he cannot e.g. have too low trust from the PC leadership.

As for penzor s ending wish, I would add that I would like to impregnate Hana, Felicia and Sophia and have wholesome families with them in their respective playthroughs.

If Sophia turns out to be "evil" and convince Edwin to use all the girls to do her experiments pretty sure your Edwin would become the darth vader of pimps easily

 

[Turret]

If Sophia turns out to be "evil" and convince Edwin to use all the girls to do her experiments pretty sure your Edwin would become the darth vader of pimps easily

Well, going by what we currently know, this is highly improbable! Esp. after the orgy. Her conscience is not Alpina- white,Sophia is opportunistic, eccentric and ends justify the means person, but clearly not evil. e.g. Kath would be incapable of this point of view and neither would she be able to empathize.

Spoiler

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It would be a fun situation if Viktoria visits our hero in the coming week in his flat when the Doktor is also there. That is a possibility since if you are on Sophia´s path or at least are open to support Abel and her then someday soon there must be a warplanning council. Even if that is most probably somewhere on the two doctors turf. New location is waiting.


By the way, even with a new start in the public version, a bug is still there. You can get this dialog. Unless I missinterpret some English construction, it should be Oliver instead of Jacob here.

 

[JJJ84]

Just finished the replay of the game in order to get a better result with Ian.

Pretty much ctrl fast skipped the scenes which I remember well (for most part), but ngl.
I was surprised to see bunch of scenes which I remember seeing when I played the game years ago.

A lot of them seem to be Ian scenes; and by selecting the "self-reflect" option, I was able to get the outcome I wanted.
And in the 'talk with Ian alone' scene just before Felicia reveal to Elias, I chose "wanted to set Ian straight" option rather than "vengeance on Grace (Ian's mom)" path.

LI like Hana is probably the biggest factor of why I enjoy this game, but MC's & Ian's bromance I think is another reason why I enjoy this VN a lot.

Two things that came to my mind after finishing replay;

1) While I steered Ian away from the path of vengeance and advised him to take the morally high road, I do still wish Grace gets some sort of comeuppance of sorts; which none of it's Edwin's or Ian's doing.
Otherwise if she just gets off scot free, I'd feel incredibly dissatisfied.

2) This one, I'd imagine may be divisive among this game's fans - is it just me, or does anyone think Ian & Mina should get back together? Some may disagree; especially players having Edwin romancing Mina.
But I honestly think that assuming the player has Edwin steer Ian towards path of redemption (him genuinely trying to apologize to Mina is a start), Ian and Mina getting back together would be good for Ian.

There is already the chemistry there, with the whole "Never have I ever" game that Edwin, Hana, Ian & Mina played in early game.
Plus, Ian being an asshole to Mina in early game (and conversely me having Edwin be the nice guy) whittled Mina's "Killian romance" points down to zero at this stage.
It would be nice to stack that stat back up, with Edwin & Hana playing wingman & wingwoman, given Hana is now a good friend to Mina to (with Ian, it goes without saying; my Edwin's Bromance stat with Ian is maxed lol).

One serious obstacle there would be is Ian's affiliation of the club, and how Mina reacts to it if cat ever gets out of the bag on that one. But that's actually something Mina will have to overcome not just with Ian, but with every single one of her friends (Edwin, Felicia, Hana).

Just some random thoughts on it, though I'm sure TD1900 will have fitting arcs planned for Grace and Ian (and by extension Mina).

 

[Chakas]

I'd feel incredibly dissatisfied

Welcome to the morally high road, forgive and forget otherwise deal with it at the same level.

 

[ffive]

2) This one, I'd imagine may be divisive among this game's fans - is it just me, or does anyone think Ian & Mina should get back together? Some may disagree; especially players having Edwin romancing Mina.
But I honestly think that assuming the player has Edwin steer Ian towards path of redemption (him genuinely trying to apologize to Mina is a start), Ian and Mina getting back together would be good for Ian.

If the entire premise for their renewed relationship is supposed to be "it would be good for Ian" then no, thank you. Mina really doesn't deserve to be treated as nothing but a device for the fuckboi to have some sort of redemption arc after the shit he's put her through.

There are literal billions of other women out there Ian can hook up with, and he's working hard towards that goal already (and always has been)

 

[JJJ84]

If the entire premise for their renewed relationship is supposed to be "it would be good for Ian" then no, thank you. Mina really doesn't deserve to be treated as nothing but a device for the fuckboi to have some sort of redemption arc after the shit he's put her through.

There are literal billions of other women out there Ian can hook up with, and he's working hard towards that goal already (and always has been)

I mean, I'm not discounting at all what Ian has done.
What he has done (intentionally trying to push Mina's buttons to see how far it takes till she breaks up with him) was him being a literal asshole and absolute deplorable thing to do.
Difference between then and now is that before, Ian wasn't aware (and didn't care about his actions), and now he does, given Edwin set him on the "self-reflect"/redemption path - assuming player chose this path for Ian.

Besides, let's set aside the "who Mina deserves" aspect, & looks at it down in terms of overall story aspect.
Can Ian hook up with billions of other women out there?
Sure. But establishing any as his potential girlfriend (as Edwin suggest just as Hell Week starts assuming player took "self-reflect" path with him) to enter the storyline?

Well, I don't see any.
Literally 99% of the women we saw Ian with have all been flings and never been in an actual relationship, so to establish someone new suddenly to establish as Ian's girlfriend in the future I just don't see working this far deep into the game (especially given I think this game is slowly heading closer towards its finishline).
Even character like Amber (girl who works at the hair salon, who did Edwin's new hair), was just given barely any characterization.

In contrast to that, following is what Mina has;

- was in a relationship with Ian previously (though not a good experience)
- already has much established characterization (hence no need to go into all the backstory of who she is and bla bla like with a new LI character for Ian)
- good friends with Edwin & Hana already (and decent relationship with the Carnations too, if her meet with them at Hana's concert is anything to go by)


additionally;
- with Mina, her story has always had a bit of an issue that it felt disjointed from the main storyline compared to other characters like Hana, Rose, Felicia, Veronica since she doesn't work at the club.

So having her forgive Ian, but they start off friends but gradually rekindle their romance I dunno about you but I can see working (compared to introducing a "nobody" LI for Ian whom I won't care about about at all at this stage).

By re-establishing the Mina-Ian romance, it solves a lot of issues in terms of introducing a new girlfriend for Ian (literally hitting 2 or even 3 birds with one stone lol).
Only thing which it comes down to is whether Mina decides to forgive Ian or not and start afresh for both of them.

Welcome to the morally high road, forgive and forget otherwise deal with it at the same level.

Uh, not really.
There doesn't just need to be the 2 extremes, but also the middle ground.

For instance, with taking the high road; sure.
Ian will likely give up on his vengeance plan (with Edwin's persuasion), but that doesn't mean he and MC can't go about ways in which they can make Grace feel really ...... defeated (for the lack of better term).

For instance, Ian's hobby is photography. Even Victoria states to Grace to possibly build that up as a job.
But Grace shows disdain/digust at even the mention of it. So what if Ian, becomes an actual photographer (as a legit job he takes seriously) and with help of MC gets some kind of leverage (like stated in this update) which stops Grace from cutting Ian off financially?

Grace failing in her scheme to send Ian to college and him getting the job she looks down upon (while unable to cut him off), I'd say is a good enough comeuppance for her (let's add Ian actually acting cold around her or even cutting off contact with her for good measure ).

Just because it's the high road route, it doesn't necessarily mean forgive and forget (and yes, I did use forgiveness for Ian and Mina example above, but difference between Ian and Grace is that Ian is completely different from Grace. Not to mention Grace's action not just impacted Ian, but also Victoria and Edwin, and Ian's actions towards Mina, despite being deplorable didn't affect other people causing them distress, tears & fury).
Doing so would just absolutely diminish the impact of Grace's Victoria blackmail & emotional effect it had on both Edwin & Ian.

 

[ename144]

If the entire premise for their renewed relationship is supposed to be "it would be good for Ian" then no, thank you. Mina really doesn't deserve to be treated as nothing but a device for the fuckboi to have some sort of redemption arc after the shit he's put her through.

There are literal billions of other women out there Ian can hook up with, and he's working hard towards that goal already (and always has been)

I agree that Mina shouldn't be reduced to a mere reward for Ian, but I do think there are some valid reasons why the two might try to reconcile if Ian is on the path to becoming a better person, and there is some potential chemistry between them. That said, I'm now all in on shooting the moon and trying for the Ian/Mina/MC throuple instead.

Plus, Ian being an asshole to Mina in early game (and conversely me having Edwin be the nice guy) whittled Mina's "Killian romance" points down to zero at this stage.
It would be nice to stack that stat back up, with Edwin & Hana playing wingman & wingwoman, given Hana is now a good friend to Mina to (with Ian, it goes without saying; my Edwin's Bromance stat with Ian is maxed lol).

Amusingly, my new Mina-centric run wound up with a staggering 5 Killian Romance points by the time the MC was hanging out with her before the Exhibition.

Apparently waiting those extra few days to make a move on her shields the Romance value from that crippling -3 hit. She's still officially just an Acting Partners, too. I'm not sure if that's intentional or an extremely obscure bug, but if it helps get that throuple I won't complain.

 

[JJJ84]

I agree that Mina shouldn't be reduced to a mere reward for Ian, but I do think there are some valid reasons why the two might try to reconcile if Ian is on the path to becoming a better person, and there is some potential chemistry between them.

Yup, this.

And as I stated in my original post, it would be far too much (and rushed/sloppy work) to establish a brand new LI for Ian who he genuinely gets in a real relationship with, and not just just a fling.
The whole "billions of other women out there" would work if it was early game where Ian self-reflected.

But it's not, and any "new" girlfriend character who comes into light will need to start the relationship building literally right from the scratch (with Mina, no need).

Plus, given Mina's bubbly/wholesome personality, I honestly can't see Mina having a grudge against Ian for long if she sees that his apology is genuine & he's changed.
I can see her reply to his apology "let's just be friends again and take it from there." starting their relationship building slowly.

Otherwise, if Mina continues to hold grudge, all that's gonna result is Ian just top-toeing around avoiding Mina just making it a very awkward environment for Mina, Edwin & Hana (like with the concert situation when they were smoking pot).