VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[ffive]

I mean, I'm not discounting at all what Ian has done.
What he has done (intentionally trying to push Mina's buttons to see how far it takes till she breaks up with him) was him being a literal asshole and absolute deplorable thing to do.
Difference between then and now is that before, Ian wasn't aware (and didn't care about his actions), and now he does, given Edwin set him on the "self-reflect"/redemption path - assuming player chose this path for Ian.

I don't agree that Ian was somehow unaware of what he was doing. IMO he knew it very well, he simply did not care if not even revel in it. His attitude towards women is what it is, and a bit of newly gained self-reflection isn't really changing this, nor is it going to automagically mend his old ways and mentality.

He is someone i'd be very reluctant to see with any woman tbh (other than someone who understands exactly what sort of guy he is, and is into it) and Mina least of all. You'd be basically saddling her with constant reminder of what she's experienced from Ian in the past. Again, i don't think this is something she deserves.

Besides, let's set aside the "who Mina deserves" aspect, & looks at it down in terms of overall story aspect.
Can Ian hook up with billions of other women out there?
Sure. But establishing any as his potential girlfriend (as Edwin suggest just as Hell Week starts assuming player took "self-reflect" path with him) to enter the storyline?

Then we can simply live without "Ian gets himself a girlfriend". Looking at it overally, it's not like this is crucial part of the story, and if anything i think it'd stretch credibility to see Ian suddenly do a full 180 on his former behavior after just one talk with Edwin.

So having her forgive Ian, but they start off friends but gradually rekindle their romance I dunno about you but I can see working (compared to introducing a "nobody" LI for Ian whom I won't care about about at all at this stage).

I'm sorry but i can't see such development as anything but Stockholm Syndrome developed by a girl whose first boyfriend was an utter asshole and she's never had a chance to experience anything better. Which is to say, i hate the idea of doing Mina dirty like that.

Plus, there's just one week of the story left. I really don't see such reconcilement happening in such time frame as anything but an ass pull.

edit: also, i kind of want to challenge the idea that it's somehow too late to introduce new "gf for Killian" because the player wouldn't have time to care about her. It didn't exactly take long (both in the game's calendar and in terms of updates) to introduce Mina to the player as a likeable character that they'd start to care about, did it? Same for Hana and everyone else Edwin has developed rapport with. It's not like people were collectively sitting on the fence about them until Exhibition #3 rolled around.

 

[ffive]

That said, I'm now all in on shooting the moon and trying for the Ian/Mina/MC throuple instead.

After the last throuple experience Edwin had with Ian, that nearly crippled their friendship after but one week, i'm sure the second time will be a charm. Something something insanity.

I tried to help them stay together like a good friend should.

You think a good friend should be trying to have you stay with someone who is cheating on you without any remorse and at every opportunity, flaunting it to the point of taking videos and leaving them at your place? Man, save me from friends like that.

When you decided to cross the line with Mina, did you ever consider at the time that such an action would actually lower you and Mina to Ian's level?

No, because Edwin isn't cheating on his partner by fucking Mina, and Ian didn't fuck girls behind Mina's back after he has learned that she'd been continually cheating on him. These are very much apples and oranges, with both Mina and Edwin understanding that Ian has effectively burned the bridge down at this point and his relationship with Mina was no longer. Even if he's had yet to receive the formal note about it.

 

[ffive]

Better Exp than Maincharacter, like I do the name I use everytime I play a game, in which there isn't a default name for the main character.

I usually go for a normal name which sounds vaguely like "MC" in those cases. So it ends up with stuff like Mac, Mike, Malcolm, Micah etc.

 

[Nulldev]

I usually go for a normal name which sounds vaguely like "MC" in those cases. So it ends up with stuff like Mac, Mike, Malcolm, Micah etc.

Nobody uses "Hiro Protagonist"?

You must be registered to see the links

 

[ffive]

Nobody uses "Hiro Protagonist"?

You must be registered to see the links

I couldn't use it without being constantly reminded of the "original/real" character with this name, so no. I'd be like "uh what the hell is he doing here" the entire time.

 

[UmbralKnight]

Do you understand that his presence in the club is the reason for the existence of this game and that there isn't any life for the character, after the game's end?

you do realise that the game for all practical purposes ends by week 4 right ?
4 weeks and an epilogue that's realistic timeframe of the game
even if the MC sticks around and works for the club do you really think we are going to get to see what happens in the club after the current carnation events end ?
remember MC is premed so he has to hang around atleast another 4 years in the club until he completes his education
we are not going to see what going to happen in the next year's carnation games
this game ends with the current carnations
unless the devs decide that the end of carnation games is just an act III and the story will continue after a small time skip showing us all the impact it had on the lives of everyone involved
even then the main choices would pretty much be whether you're staying in the club or leave it all behind

By quitting early he forfeits the very thing that made him participate and put up with all this shit in the first place.

that kind of blackmail might have mattered much a few weeks ago but now not so much

kathy and chuck both might spend rest of their lives trying to ruin MC's life if he turns on them but hey
now he too (potentially) has new powerful friends

we have already seen grace and abel (through sophia) offer him money for his education/ job for him in exchange for helping them

so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that he could get help from one or few of the other patrons through some of his actions

for example
someone like elais might be willing to help the MC provided that he makes sure that felcia "wins" the games or something
It's not unrealistic
sure he might be very pissed off rn and felicia would probably hate you but elias did like hanging out with "bukowski" very much so he could help the MC potentially in the future

plus elais isn't the only one
samson is obsessed with veronica he would most definitely pay /do anything to learn her most vulnerable secrets from the MC who could pretend to be guardian angel/best friend all along only to betray her in her most desperate hour

so yeah chuck and kathy using "money" as a leverage won't work as effective as they used to in the beginning but they could make sure he stays complaint through other means

any deal with kathy is a guaranteed faustian bargain
nothing good can come from it

How tall is Veronica? I think she is around 190cm

yeah that sounds about right
she is as tall as samson / warren who are both tall men themselves

"... 10 years later, after the last carnation stopped answering Edwin's messages, one could still find him drinking alone in the bar, never wanting to talk about the past, but always playing this song in the jukebox."

"All we ever wanted was everything" by Bauhaus starts playing. Credits - and tears- roll.

Or just simply rename it to Pale Carnations - It did end in tears.

 

[HDussen]

Nobody uses "Hiro Protagonist"?

You must be registered to see the links

Parson Gotti

 

[ffive]

that kind of blackmail might have mattered much a few weeks ago but now not so much

kathy and chuck both might spend rest of their lives trying to ruin MC's life if he turns on them but hey
now he too (potentially) has new powerful friends

we have already seen grace and abel (through sophia) offer him money for his education/ job for him in exchange for helping them

so it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that he could get help from one or few of the other patrons through some of his actions

It's not blackmail. It's payment for service rendered. You know, a normal thing people get from a job.

Considering that Grace is likely to jump as high as her brother tells her (meaning if her brother tells her to disassociate from Edwin, she will) and Abel is actively working with the club in order to develop a mind-fucking drug, i'm not seeing why exactly you think Edwin swapping his current arrangement for one of those would be an improvement from either materialistic or moral point of view. Same for ideas like "maybe Elias will overlook the shit i pulled and tosses some money my way" and "hey, why don't i abuse Veronica's trust to sell dirt on her to the man who orchestrated the situation she is in because he is obsessed with fucking her, literally and figuratively".

Also, there is still a question why he would want to quit in the first place if he didn't already. He has already spent the "few most important weeks" degrading women on stage for entertainment of old farts, but you think being a middle manager in a brothel is where he will draw the line? He entered this contract in the first place thinking that would be his actual work.

any deal with kathy is a guaranteed faustian bargain
nothing good can come from it

Right, as opposed to working for Abel. Have you seen the state Sophia is in, something Abel is clearly okay with and fully taking advantage of? Or are you maybe hoping for Edwin to end up as another drugged up table for sushi at his master's instructions...

Also, again. Edwin's deal is with Chuck, not Kat. In fact, Chuck admonishes Kat a couple of times when she, in his opinion, takes things with Edwin too far.

 

[lustforsex]

No, because Edwin isn't cheating on his partner by fucking Mina, and Ian didn't fuck girls behind Mina's back after he has learned that she'd been continually cheating on him. These are very much apples and oranges, with both Mina and Edwin understanding that Ian has effectively burned the bridge down at this point and his relationship with Mina was no longer. Even if he's had yet to receive the formal note about it.

Mina herself has a different opinion on this matter:

Spoiler

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As for Edwin, he didn't cheat on anyone, but that doesn't mean he didn't know what he was doing (he's not in a situation where a girl deliberately hides or simply doesn't say that she's still technically in a relationship), and Ian is his best and only friend (not counting girls), and besides his numerous conflicting thoughts on the matter, even the devs hinted at this before watching the replay:

Spoiler

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[ffive]

Mina herself has a different opinion on this matter:

IIRC literally a moment later in that scene you can advocate as Edwin that Mina should officially break up with Ian as soon as possible, and Mina not only doesn't argue with it, but agrees. While one obviously isn't going to switch cleanly from thinking about partner as ex before making it official, i think Mina will also recognize sooner or later that what she did was only "being unfaithful" in the most technical sense, but it didn't give her any real sense what it truly feels like "to be unfaithful" i.e. to fuck behind your partner's back when you don't intend to leave them.

 

[Leinad_Sevla]

If we are still talking about what we name the MC, I also usually change the name of my MC´s.
It always confuses me a little when I see people using the MC´s actual name because I´m so used to using another one.

 

[UmbralKnight]

It's not blackmail. It's payment for service rendered. You know, a normal thing people get from a job.

Considering that Grace is likely to jump as high as her brother tells her (meaning if her brother tells her to disassociate from Edwin, she will) and Abel is actively working with the club in order to develop a mind-fucking drug, i'm not seeing why exactly you think Edwin swapping his current arrangement for one of those would be an improvement from either materialistic or moral point of view. Same for ideas like "maybe Elias will overlook the shit i pulled and tosses some money my way" and "hey, why don't i abuse Veronica's trust to sell dirt on her to the man who orchestrated the situation she is in because he is obsessed with fucking her, literally and figuratively".

Also, there is still a question why he would want to quit in the first place if he didn't already. He has already spent the "few most important weeks" degrading women on stage for entertainment of old farts, but you think being a middle manager in a brothel is where he will draw the line? He entered this contract in the first place thinking that would be his actual work.


Right, as opposed to working for Abel. Have you seen the state Sophia is in, something Abel is clearly okay with and fully taking advantage of? Or are you maybe hoping for Edwin to end up as another drugged up table for sushi at his master's instructions...

Also, again. Edwin's deal is with Chuck, not Kat. In fact, Chuck admonishes Kat a couple of times when she, in his opinion, takes things with Edwin too far.

first of all i never said that making deals with Abel or Grace is any better
It was meant to illustrate that MC has other options now than hope and pray for mercy that chuck/kathy keep up their end of the deal
second of all

Edwin's deal is with Chuck, not Kat. In fact, Chuck admonishes Kat a couple of times when she, in his opinion, takes things with Edwin too far.

do you really want to gamble everything on "uncle chuck's" benevolence?
he doesn't care what kathy does as long as he is sufficiently "entertained"
unlike ian or hana
MC has no blood relations in the club
he is easily replaceable like darius

It's not blackmail. It's payment for service rendered. You know, a normal thing people get from a job.

there is nothing "normal" about working in an underground sex club
even if you perform your duties to the letter as expected
do you really think kathy/chuck/august are going to let you walk away just like that one fine day when the MC completes his tenure with the establishment?
so far we haven't seen anyone successfully complete their time in the club and leave without any strings attached
what if you piss off kathy/chuck and they don't pay you / alter their deals what are you going to do ?
nothing
everyone who is already someone important in the city is part of the club so yeah that's why it's important for the MC to have "backup" plans if everything goes wrong
sure most of them are going to be very immoral and evil like helping samson but it's a last resort of sorts when everything goes wrong

and lastly the most important question of all

there is still a question why he would want to quit in the first place if he didn't already

very simple
he had no good reason to quit

up until now one of biggest reasons for the MC to not join the club is one day his mother somehow learning about it
but now there is one MORE compelling reason to leave the club (atleast if you're romancing Veronica that is)

Veronica hates the club and everyone who works in it (very understandable) and in the beginning she saw the MC as nothing but a errand boy working for Kathy but now even though she knows the reason why MC is working for the club and appreciates the effort MC has put into to becoming a doctor
there is no way she is ever going to accept him working for the club while being romantically involved with her
infact we have already seen glimpses of this
during her date
she can't help but feel bad that the only way they both "met" was through the club

so much so that she wants to both of them to begin anew
pretend as if it's the first time they're meeting eachother
and that's why both of them throughout the dance scene keep mentioning that it's the "first" time they both meet the true self of eachother
plus she repeatedly keeps saying that they both can hangout be friends (maybe more?) only till end of the month when the games end

even though by now she CLEARLY likes the MC
the fact that they both met under those circumstances is always going to be on her mind
one could say those horrible circumstances made for a good bonding moment while it's true there is no way the MC is going to justify working for the club for YEARS after the current carnation games end

this is the greatest hurdle in their relationship
not the fact that she is 1/3rd older than the MC or that she is bi-sexual
she is never going to be in love with "kathy's errand boy"

even if she wins the games and her gym becomes very successful as long as the MC works for kathy and the club
I don't think she would be willing to be the MC as long as he works for Kathy and the Club

plus she might not be only one either
sure hana and even felicia might be ok with the MC working for the club for years to come but I don't think mina or rose will be ok with that especially rose considering she has a daughter

 

[bonerland]

Does no one use names like Cash Money, Slam Rockfist, Thick Beefhammer, or Max Power?

 

[ffive]

do you really want to gamble everything on "uncle chuck's" benevolence?

Objectively, Edwin benefits from some level of nepotism, which he'd be lacking elsewhere, and which got him this job in the first place. He's friends with one of the owners and close friends with that owenr's nephew. He is also chummy with the daughter of another of the owners, and potentially on good terms with him. Ironically, he's quite better connected and positioned at this work than he'd be just about anywhere else.

there is nothing "normal" about working in an underground sex club

It is illegal, but other than that it's work like any other. It involves exploitation, but this aspect is common enough in legal workplaces, even if not always sexual in nature.

do you really think kathy/chuck/august are going to let you walk away just like that one fine day when the MC completes his tenure with the establishment?

What do you think Kat, Chuck and August have done to all girls which used to work in the club but no longer do? What do you believe they will do to Edwin if he calls it quits?

so far we haven't seen anyone successfully complete their time in the club and leave without any strings attached

Where do you think we would see such person? Edwin works at the club, not at "the place where people who succesfully completed their time in the club and left" go. Which is, coincidentally, the entire world, but people don't tend to advertise "I worked at secret sex club and all I got was this lousy t-shirt". So even if we met such person, it's not like Edwin would know.

Hell, you could say his own mother Victoria is pretty much such a person, considering she did quite a few porn movies for August's friend and yet apparently quit and spent years afterwards with no strings attached, until Grace decided to abuse the info she had on her.

what if you piss off kathy/chuck and they don't pay you / alter their deals what are you going to do ?
nothing

You piss off your boss anywhere in fictional U.S and you get your ass just as fired. Good luck suing them for money they own you. They'll just drag the proceedings out knowing their company can afford it, but you don't.

up until now one of biggest reasons for the MC to not join the club is one day his mother somehow learning about it
but now there is one MORE compelling reason to leave the club (atleast if you're romancing Veronica that is)

(...)

sure hana and even felicia might be ok with the MC working for the club for years to come but I don't think mina or rose will be ok with that especially rose considering she has a daughter

OK, this might be a reason for MC who is in romance with Veronica and can delude himself he is going to have a successful long-term relationship with a frisky lesbian who hits on anyone in a skirt. But i wouldn't really extrapolate it on every other Edwin. Not all of them are going to be making their important life decisions based on a girl they've met just a few weeks ago.

 

[Turret]

You think a good friend should be trying to have you stay with someone who is cheating on you without any remorse and at every opportunity, flaunting it to the point of taking videos and leaving them at your place? Man, save me from friends like that.

Hi!
Sorry man, but your argumentation here is one-sided and unfair! It might have slipped your memory, but esp. in the first part of the game you can repeatedly remind Ian of what he might throw away with his actions. Also even our hero is surprised about the video stick!
As a reminder, I still have a 6 point romance rating for them in my playthroughs. That is the result of our hero repeatedly helping both sides and talking to them about their relationship. I consider a friend trying to get his friends with their relationship in trouble to talk and solve their problems a good friend! You cannot solve their problems for them, but you can help them in many smaller ways. You might or might be not able to keep them together, that is something they decide.
But simply looking at it "enjoying the show", which is what you champion with your argumentation here, that is a dick move and unworthy of a friendship.

Considering that Grace is likely to jump as high as her brother tells her (meaning if her brother tells her to disassociate from Edwin, she will) and Abel is actively working with the club in order to develop a mind-fucking drug, i'm not seeing why exactly you think Edwin swapping his current arrangement for one of those would be an improvement from either materialistic or moral point of view.

I do not know if you blank out some facts and info the game gives us in order to be contrarian for contrary´s sake, but your argument here is a nothingburger, sorry. It has been hinted at with a fencepost for Edwin that Abel and Sophia are at club simply to prepare and execute a strike against the club leadership from the inside. They could easily develop further Sophia´s new invention in complete secrecy in their black ops labs. Giving some early versions of the superviagra to the club is their way to get a foot in the door.
If you want to stop Kath and Chuck, you need help and our two doctors have some hefty power at their disposal. Jumping ship to them is an improvement for a MC wanting change at PC.

Same for ideas like "maybe Elias will overlook the shit i pulled and tosses some money my way"

As for Elias, have you seen that he is far more eager to meet Abel than Chuck and that the game counts brownie/ friendship points for him? That our hero going for Allison alienates him, while going for Sophia does not? There will be the chance to get Elias on your side.

 

[Discrepancy]

It has been hinted at with a fencepost for Edwin that Abel and Sophia are at club simply to prepare and execute a strike against the club leadership from the inside. They could easily develop further Sophia´s new invention in complete secrecy in their black ops labs. Giving some early versions of the superviagra to the club is their way to get a foot in the door.
If you want to stop Kath and Chuck, you need help and our two doctors have some hefty power at their disposal. Jumping ship to them is an improvement for a MC wanting change at PC.

I think this is purely fan fiction, sorry Turret Abel and Sophia are testing a rape drug or whatever you want to call it on living humans. Whatever they doing on the basement of the club could be pretty nefarious and worse than anything Chuck or August ever done in the club, maybe not Kathleen hehe.
Your love for Sophia is great, I like her too, but she looks brainwashed on the last update and maybe she's not evil but Abel for sure is. Well at least that's how I saw things there, I might be completely wrong too

 

[GoldenEyeDrake]

Seeing Chuck and Kathleen in sync with one another during the Felicia reveal was impressive to say the least. Even August was in disbelief over how joyful they both were. I can't wait to see the immediate fallout from this Elias encounter.

Also, going back and replaying the game from the Hana FB/GF decision (three years worth of saves jesus christ), I can't help but get the feeling Sophia is becoming more and more of a LI rather than a simple lay every now and then. Not only is Sophia is opening up more and more, yet still playing mind games with the MC, Sophia is also trying to position for the MC to spend more time with her outside of the club by recruiting him as a researcher under herself. Before our MC cut her off, I have no doubt that Sophia was undoubtedly fine with him just being her in presence as a source of comfort rather than being another qualified individual on team, hence why she suggested the cleaning her beakers.
Even though, I'm gunning for a possible Mina/Hana throuple (my favorite LIs), I would be lying if I said I wasn't very curious about Sophia path/ending as long as said route doesn't bloat the game too much.

 

[ffive]

Sorry man, but your argumentation here is one-sided and unfair! It might have slipped your memory, but esp. in the first part of the game you can repeatedly remind Ian of what he might throw away with his actions. Also even our hero is surprised about the video stick!

If i recall correctly, Edwin can admonish Ian for hitting on other girls. That is before he learns Ian actually cheats on Mina full stop. After you get first row seat to him fucking some other girl you can basically tell him that what he's doing is fucked up, but i personally don't see it as "trying for them to stay together" but simply informing Ian that any consequences that now come his way, he's well earned them.

As a reminder, I still have a 6 point romance rating for them in my playthroughs. That is the result of our hero repeatedly helping both sides and talking to them about their relationship.

If i'm not mistaken the "romance points" are effectively just whatever feelings Mina may (still) have for Ian, mostly thanks to Edwin keeping her in the dark about what Ian is doing, excusing his behavior and not making any moves on Mina himself.

I consider a friend trying to get his friends with their relationship in trouble to talk and solve their problems a good friend!
You cannot solve their problems for them, but you can help them in many smaller ways. You might or might be not able to keep them together, that is something they decide.
But simply looking at it "enjoying the show", which is what you champion with your argumentation here, that is a dick move and unworthy of a friendship.

Their "problem" is that Ian is cheating on Mina while you are potentially covering his actions because "aww, bromance". The actual solution to this problem is for these two to stop being in relationship. Something you can help to happen not by simply looking at it and enjoying the show, which i never advocated, but by being upfront with Mina what sort of a guy Ian is like.

 

[lustforsex]

IIRC literally a moment later in that scene you can advocate as Edwin that Mina should officially break up with Ian as soon as possible, and Mina not only doesn't argue with it, but agrees. While one obviously isn't going to switch cleanly from thinking about partner as ex before making it official, i think Mina will also recognize sooner or later that what she did was only "being unfaithful" in the most technical sense, but it didn't give her any real sense what it truly feels like "to be unfaithful" i.e. to fuck behind your partner's back when you don't intend to leave them.

Therefore, all players who cross the line and pursue Mina should keep in mind that sooner or later Mina will want to truly experience infidelity. Pete has already thrown the bait

Jokes aside, the fact that a threesome with Mina and Felicia can only happen if you cross the line seems more like a "fuckboy" route, rather than an attempt to create some kind of serious relationship. And starting a serious relationship as a rebound guy isn't the best idea, although it would be complicated for a porn game. Who knows, maybe TD will surprise us here too, because if it doesn't have any consequences in the end, waiting for Mina and Ian to "officially" break up will be pointless. You'll lose scenes with Mina, the opportunity for a threesome with Felicia or her gaining a self-confidence point and maybe something else.

 

[Discrepancy]

Therefore, all players who cross the line and pursue Mina should keep in mind that sooner or later Mina will want to truly experience infidelity. Pete has already thrown the bait

Jokes aside, the fact that a threesome with Mina and Felicia can only happen if you cross the line seems more like a "fuckboy" route, rather than an attempt to create some kind of serious relationship. And starting a serious relationship as a rebound guy isn't the best idea, although it would be complicated for a porn game. Who knows, maybe TD will surprise us here too, because if it doesn't have any consequences in the end, waiting for Mina and Ian to "officially" break up will be pointless. You'll lose scenes with Mina, the opportunity for a threesome with Felicia or her gaining a self-confidence point and maybe something else.

Starting a serious relationship with Mina wouldn't be fair to her, considering Edwin will cheat on her automatically because of his job, with Hana can be possible because you don't have to hide anything from her.