VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[ffive]

do you really want to gamble everything on "uncle chuck's" benevolence?

Objectively, Edwin benefits from some level of nepotism, which he'd be lacking elsewhere, and which got him this job in the first place. He's friends with one of the owners and close friends with that owenr's nephew. He is also chummy with the daughter of another of the owners, and potentially on good terms with him. Ironically, he's quite better connected and positioned at this work than he'd be just about anywhere else.

there is nothing "normal" about working in an underground sex club

It is illegal, but other than that it's work like any other. It involves exploitation, but this aspect is common enough in legal workplaces, even if not always sexual in nature.

do you really think kathy/chuck/august are going to let you walk away just like that one fine day when the MC completes his tenure with the establishment?

What do you think Kat, Chuck and August have done to all girls which used to work in the club but no longer do? What do you believe they will do to Edwin if he calls it quits?

so far we haven't seen anyone successfully complete their time in the club and leave without any strings attached

Where do you think we would see such person? Edwin works at the club, not at "the place where people who succesfully completed their time in the club and left" go. Which is, coincidentally, the entire world, but people don't tend to advertise "I worked at secret sex club and all I got was this lousy t-shirt". So even if we met such person, it's not like Edwin would know.

Hell, you could say his own mother Victoria is pretty much such a person, considering she did quite a few porn movies for August's friend and yet apparently quit and spent years afterwards with no strings attached, until Grace decided to abuse the info she had on her.

what if you piss off kathy/chuck and they don't pay you / alter their deals what are you going to do ?
nothing

You piss off your boss anywhere in fictional U.S and you get your ass just as fired. Good luck suing them for money they own you. They'll just drag the proceedings out knowing their company can afford it, but you don't.

up until now one of biggest reasons for the MC to not join the club is one day his mother somehow learning about it
but now there is one MORE compelling reason to leave the club (atleast if you're romancing Veronica that is)

(...)

sure hana and even felicia might be ok with the MC working for the club for years to come but I don't think mina or rose will be ok with that especially rose considering she has a daughter

OK, this might be a reason for MC who is in romance with Veronica and can delude himself he is going to have a successful long-term relationship with a frisky lesbian who hits on anyone in a skirt. But i wouldn't really extrapolate it on every other Edwin. Not all of them are going to be making their important life decisions based on a girl they've met just a few weeks ago.

 

[Turret]

You think a good friend should be trying to have you stay with someone who is cheating on you without any remorse and at every opportunity, flaunting it to the point of taking videos and leaving them at your place? Man, save me from friends like that.

Hi!
Sorry man, but your argumentation here is one-sided and unfair! It might have slipped your memory, but esp. in the first part of the game you can repeatedly remind Ian of what he might throw away with his actions. Also even our hero is surprised about the video stick!
As a reminder, I still have a 6 point romance rating for them in my playthroughs. That is the result of our hero repeatedly helping both sides and talking to them about their relationship. I consider a friend trying to get his friends with their relationship in trouble to talk and solve their problems a good friend! You cannot solve their problems for them, but you can help them in many smaller ways. You might or might be not able to keep them together, that is something they decide.
But simply looking at it "enjoying the show", which is what you champion with your argumentation here, that is a dick move and unworthy of a friendship.

Considering that Grace is likely to jump as high as her brother tells her (meaning if her brother tells her to disassociate from Edwin, she will) and Abel is actively working with the club in order to develop a mind-fucking drug, i'm not seeing why exactly you think Edwin swapping his current arrangement for one of those would be an improvement from either materialistic or moral point of view.

I do not know if you blank out some facts and info the game gives us in order to be contrarian for contrary´s sake, but your argument here is a nothingburger, sorry. It has been hinted at with a fencepost for Edwin that Abel and Sophia are at club simply to prepare and execute a strike against the club leadership from the inside. They could easily develop further Sophia´s new invention in complete secrecy in their black ops labs. Giving some early versions of the superviagra to the club is their way to get a foot in the door.
If you want to stop Kath and Chuck, you need help and our two doctors have some hefty power at their disposal. Jumping ship to them is an improvement for a MC wanting change at PC.

Same for ideas like "maybe Elias will overlook the shit i pulled and tosses some money my way"

As for Elias, have you seen that he is far more eager to meet Abel than Chuck and that the game counts brownie/ friendship points for him? That our hero going for Allison alienates him, while going for Sophia does not? There will be the chance to get Elias on your side.

 

[Discrepancy]

It has been hinted at with a fencepost for Edwin that Abel and Sophia are at club simply to prepare and execute a strike against the club leadership from the inside. They could easily develop further Sophia´s new invention in complete secrecy in their black ops labs. Giving some early versions of the superviagra to the club is their way to get a foot in the door.
If you want to stop Kath and Chuck, you need help and our two doctors have some hefty power at their disposal. Jumping ship to them is an improvement for a MC wanting change at PC.

I think this is purely fan fiction, sorry Turret Abel and Sophia are testing a rape drug or whatever you want to call it on living humans. Whatever they doing on the basement of the club could be pretty nefarious and worse than anything Chuck or August ever done in the club, maybe not Kathleen hehe.
Your love for Sophia is great, I like her too, but she looks brainwashed on the last update and maybe she's not evil but Abel for sure is. Well at least that's how I saw things there, I might be completely wrong too

 

[GoldenEyeDrake]

Seeing Chuck and Kathleen in sync with one another during the Felicia reveal was impressive to say the least. Even August was in disbelief over how joyful they both were. I can't wait to see the immediate fallout from this Elias encounter.

Also, going back and replaying the game from the Hana FB/GF decision (three years worth of saves jesus christ), I can't help but get the feeling Sophia is becoming more and more of a LI rather than a simple lay every now and then. Not only is Sophia is opening up more and more, yet still playing mind games with the MC, Sophia is also trying to position for the MC to spend more time with her outside of the club by recruiting him as a researcher under herself. Before our MC cut her off, I have no doubt that Sophia was undoubtedly fine with him just being her in presence as a source of comfort rather than being another qualified individual on team, hence why she suggested the cleaning her beakers.
Even though, I'm gunning for a possible Mina/Hana throuple (my favorite LIs), I would be lying if I said I wasn't very curious about Sophia path/ending as long as said route doesn't bloat the game too much.

 

[ffive]

Sorry man, but your argumentation here is one-sided and unfair! It might have slipped your memory, but esp. in the first part of the game you can repeatedly remind Ian of what he might throw away with his actions. Also even our hero is surprised about the video stick!

If i recall correctly, Edwin can admonish Ian for hitting on other girls. That is before he learns Ian actually cheats on Mina full stop. After you get first row seat to him fucking some other girl you can basically tell him that what he's doing is fucked up, but i personally don't see it as "trying for them to stay together" but simply informing Ian that any consequences that now come his way, he's well earned them.

As a reminder, I still have a 6 point romance rating for them in my playthroughs. That is the result of our hero repeatedly helping both sides and talking to them about their relationship.

If i'm not mistaken the "romance points" are effectively just whatever feelings Mina may (still) have for Ian, mostly thanks to Edwin keeping her in the dark about what Ian is doing, excusing his behavior and not making any moves on Mina himself.

I consider a friend trying to get his friends with their relationship in trouble to talk and solve their problems a good friend!
You cannot solve their problems for them, but you can help them in many smaller ways. You might or might be not able to keep them together, that is something they decide.
But simply looking at it "enjoying the show", which is what you champion with your argumentation here, that is a dick move and unworthy of a friendship.

Their "problem" is that Ian is cheating on Mina while you are potentially covering his actions because "aww, bromance". The actual solution to this problem is for these two to stop being in relationship. Something you can help to happen not by simply looking at it and enjoying the show, which i never advocated, but by being upfront with Mina what sort of a guy Ian is like.

 

[lustforsex]

IIRC literally a moment later in that scene you can advocate as Edwin that Mina should officially break up with Ian as soon as possible, and Mina not only doesn't argue with it, but agrees. While one obviously isn't going to switch cleanly from thinking about partner as ex before making it official, i think Mina will also recognize sooner or later that what she did was only "being unfaithful" in the most technical sense, but it didn't give her any real sense what it truly feels like "to be unfaithful" i.e. to fuck behind your partner's back when you don't intend to leave them.

Therefore, all players who cross the line and pursue Mina should keep in mind that sooner or later Mina will want to truly experience infidelity. Pete has already thrown the bait

Jokes aside, the fact that a threesome with Mina and Felicia can only happen if you cross the line seems more like a "fuckboy" route, rather than an attempt to create some kind of serious relationship. And starting a serious relationship as a rebound guy isn't the best idea, although it would be complicated for a porn game. Who knows, maybe TD will surprise us here too, because if it doesn't have any consequences in the end, waiting for Mina and Ian to "officially" break up will be pointless. You'll lose scenes with Mina, the opportunity for a threesome with Felicia or her gaining a self-confidence point and maybe something else.

 

[Discrepancy]

Therefore, all players who cross the line and pursue Mina should keep in mind that sooner or later Mina will want to truly experience infidelity. Pete has already thrown the bait

Jokes aside, the fact that a threesome with Mina and Felicia can only happen if you cross the line seems more like a "fuckboy" route, rather than an attempt to create some kind of serious relationship. And starting a serious relationship as a rebound guy isn't the best idea, although it would be complicated for a porn game. Who knows, maybe TD will surprise us here too, because if it doesn't have any consequences in the end, waiting for Mina and Ian to "officially" break up will be pointless. You'll lose scenes with Mina, the opportunity for a threesome with Felicia or her gaining a self-confidence point and maybe something else.

Starting a serious relationship with Mina wouldn't be fair to her, considering Edwin will cheat on her automatically because of his job, with Hana can be possible because you don't have to hide anything from her.

 

[slightchance]

"When you found out about the company I was working for...did you...did you watch my videos?"
"No."
"Phew, thank goodness. I mean it's not something a boy..."
"No, what I meant was that I haven't watched ALL of your videos."
"Huh?"
"There are still a few I wasn't able to download yet."
"Oh..."

 

[ffive]

Therefore, all players who cross the line and pursue Mina should keep in mind that sooner or later Mina will want to truly experience infidelity. Pete has already thrown the bait

I mean, if you don't cross the line then that first item on her bucket list remains unchecked but she'll want to get that done sooner or later, too.

I actually quite agree that, realistically, there's little chance for Edwin and Mina to have a long-term relationship. The "rebound guy" effect does play a role, as does Mina's overall inexperience and Edwin actually connecting with Mina as a person unlike Ian, but the former is going to wear off and so will sooner or later the novelty of the latter -- it's not like Mina is never going to meet other people who treat her like a thinking human being, but who won't have Edwin's various baggage and as such will be objectively better pairings.

 

[DarkLords00]

Sorry man, but your argumentation here is one-sided and unfair! It might have slipped your memory, but esp. in the first part of the game you can repeatedly remind Ian of what he might throw away with his actions. Also even our hero is surprised about the video stick!
As a reminder, I still have a 6 point romance rating for them in my playthroughs. That is the result of our hero repeatedly helping both sides and talking to them about their relationship. I consider a friend trying to get his friends with their relationship in trouble to talk and solve their problems a good friend! You cannot solve their problems for them, but you can help them in many smaller ways. You might or might be not able to keep them together, that is something they decide.

Dude, the only possible way to keep that score high so far it's to blatantly lie for Killian about one of his several instances of him cheating on Mina.

You can also argue that, that ship (Mina x Killian) , completely sunk the moment she found that tape in her house since it's heavily implied by some of her comments surrrounding her mother and her breaking into tears if Edwin decides to comfort her via hug that one of the most promminent reasons she kept indulging the relationship despite Ian's misdeeds was because she didn't want her lovelife to resemble her mother.

Also, also if Mina were to fully get back together with Ian romantically after that amount of betrayal and it was portrayed as a good thing in the story (Regarldess of Ian changing or not) it would show her as a complete and utter pushover with no amount of self-love/self-respect that would contrast too much with how she is portrayed trough most if not all of her scenes. (Christsake, she has a full on memorial wall with important events of her life that fills her with happiness/pride and her meeting Ian was a footnote if we compare via photograph size )

I don't understand this sudden desire with Ian and Mina getting back together would be good for Ian's charcter where it would run contrary to him having to live with the fact that his way of life and tendencies to enjoy momentary satisfaction and pushing boundaries regardless of consequences led him to lose one of the best possible things he could've had in his life besides Edwin and Victoria.

If you guys just want to see Ian with anybody else there's always the hairstylist or his maid Alice even Hana would make more sense since she can determinally(almost) admit to Mina about finding Ian hot so if he resolves his personality issues I doubt anything could stop them from them developing into something more if Ian changes his way since there is no previous baggage and unlike Mina she probably know the most about him besides his uncle or the Turners.

If you, on the other hand prefer Mina to be with someone: there's always that guy at Hana's rockshow who was an acquaintance of her(Pete/Paul don't remember his name xD) or just any random person Mina would desire to try dating with.

 

[ffive]

If you, on the other hand prefer Mina to be with someone: there's always that guy at Hana's rockshow who was an acquaintance of her(Pete/Paul don't remember his name xD) or just any random person Mina would desire to try dating with.

Pete would be okay if he didn't look like a gremlin; i'm shallow and my suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

But it wouldn't surprise me too much if Mina met someone in that talent agency she's a part of, who could catch her interest. Having some common experiences to share and some similarity of mindsets can help quite a bit. (not to mention scoring higher in the looks departments, obv)

 

[Turret]

Dude, the only possible way to keep that score high so far it's to blatantly lie for Killian about one of his several instances of him cheating on Mina.

Sorry, but that is not true, my Edwin never lied to Mina! You do not have to. What is also overlooked here by some, since they are wanting Mina the first chance they can get, that there are choices which do not add to trashing the Ian/Mina relationship.

 

[lustforsex]

I mean, if you don't cross the line then that first item on her bucket list remains unchecked but she'll want to get that done sooner or later, too.

I actually quite agree that, realistically, there's little chance for Edwin and Mina to have a long-term relationship. The "rebound guy" effect does play a role, as does Edwin actually connecting with Mina as a person unlike Ian, but the former is going to wear off and so will sooner or later the novelty of the latter -- it's not like Mina is never going to meet other people who treat her like a thinking human being, but who won't have Edwin's various baggage and as such will be objectively better pairings.

I supposed it could be nitpicked, but I figured covering up every weak point in the messages would be ridiculous. That way, Edwin simply wouldn't give Mina a reason to... simple as that. Or if Mina decides to do to Edwin what Ian did to her, in which case I won't leave the club and will make sure she becomes the next Carnation

I agree. Even if you reject Mina the first time, the second time at the park she'll be more responsible about reciprocating your advances. I interpret the certain affection check to ensure she doesn't reject you as meaning that this time she doesn't see you as a rebound guy, and if you don't meet that check, she'll just call you a nerd with no hobbies

 

[lustforsex]

It feels like we're slowly but surely approaching the territory of Ian not being raised by his parents, not knowing the meaning of unconditional love, and Chuck's philosophy, which he imposed on him, clearly didn't help either. This certainly doesn't excuse his behavior toward Mina, but it also plays a significant role in who he became and we have a chance to show him that this is not the only way.

Going down such a rabbit hole on a fucking porn forum is certainly an interesting phenomenon. I've had enough for now

 

[slightchance]

Pete would be okay if he didn't look like a gremlin; i'm shallow and my suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

Pete looks fairly average to me. He won't have any trouble finding someone like Mina. In fact he reminds me of one lanky ass gremlin with a five head who scored one of the hotties back in the days. Dude was simply easy to be around and quite charming. That's enough for some people.

 

[DarkLords00]

Sorry, but that is not true, my Edwin never lied to Mina! You do not have to. What is also overlooked here by some, since they are wanting Mina the first chance they can get, that there are choices which do not add to trashing the Ian/Mina relationship.

That statement is completely false, it is actually impossble for Edwin not to lie to Mina, if you think it makes Edwin a better friend to cover better for Ian's misdeeds that's up to you as a person but don't try to gaslight me with false information please.

Regardless of how you play the game the choice I was talking about is as follow:

Spoiler: Regardless what you choose Edwin will lie...

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Spoiler: If you choose the first option...

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Spoiler: If you choose the second option...

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[shazamanone]

full save anyone?

 

[Turret]

That statement is completely false, it is actually impossble for Edwin not to lie to Mina, if you think it makes Edwin a better friend to cover better for Ian's misdeeds that's up to you as a person but don't try to gaslight me with false information please.

Regardless of how you play the game the choice I was talking about is as follow:

Spoiler: Regardless what you choose Edwin will lie...

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Spoiler: If you choose the first option...

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Spoiler: If you choose the second option...

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The first option is NOT a lie. A lie is intentionally telling someone something that the speaker knows to be false. Edwin omits knowledge he has, but he doe not lie.

 

[Discrepancy]

The first option is NOT a lie. A lie is intentionally telling someone something that the speaker knows to be false. Edwin omits knowledge he has, but he doe not lie.

Come on! An half-truth is still a lie, or at least we can't be truly honest to Mina, the truth will be a third option: Tell mina the truth say Ian is cheating on her. I would probably chose the half truth though, but that is still lying om my book

 

[Turret]

I think this is purely fan fiction, sorry Turret Abel and Sophia are testing a rape drug or whatever you want to call it on living humans. Whatever they doing on the basement of the club could be pretty nefarious and worse than anything Chuck or August ever done in the club, maybe not Kathleen hehe.
Your love for Sophia is great, I like her too, but she looks brainwashed on the last update and maybe she's not evil but Abel for sure is. Well at least that's how I saw things there, I might be completely wrong too

Hi!
No problem, our discussion lives from the various standpoints we have. My look at it is not simply fanfiction, I ´ll show you why I think so below. As an aside, with the game advancing further and further it becomes clearer that Sophia/Abel are shaped to be a middle path to go on. They certainly are not something akin to Kath and Chuck, opposing them, but also have few qualms to do what they consider necessary. Sophia (we know not much about Abel so far) is one of the few bright lights in the club, but she has a couple of black schlieren on her.

We should not forget that so far the game never shied away from showing consequences of events happening, e.g. Jacob putting Oliver into coma. Until now there has been no pics showing what happens in the cellar, while we have info on some other "delicate" happenings. There is someone kept prisoner in there, that´s for sure, but I doubt that Sophia does much to him/her. The advances of her "Viagra+" are far too quick even for a genius like her (remember Abel and Sophia are in the club not much longer than our hero is) to be made in that cellar with one "lab person".
It is far more likely that the newer versions are coming from Abel and Sophia´s black labs, with additional research info gained from the use in the club with older versions. It is complete BS to believe they research the drug at the club when they have black labs available. Abel and Sophia are shown as two geniuses, she even outshining him. There is no way in hell that they would be so dumb as to research an illegal medicine/drug in a location not really secret and under control from others. This could potentially ruin Abel and his firm´s sterling reputation, so a no go. The "research of super-viagra" in that cellar is most likely a scam, a stage play to seem similar deviant as many of the other VIP members.
You might remember our discussion on personality imprints, grafts and special training, worthy of secret services and stuff. I theorise Sophia (and Abel to a lesser degree) has several done on her to be able to function undercover in the den of depravity the club is. I think they underestimated what these imprints can and cannot do and what they will do to them over the long run.

What in this discussion on Abel/Sophia is also frequently lost, whatever the exact parameters of their relationship are, Sophia is his chosen successor. Given Abel´s age, he will retire within the next few years and Sophia will become leader of a medical empire. His corporation is depicted in the game as one of the truly major players in medical production and research.

Spoiler

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