VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Beduin123]

In your first posts, you've made abundantly clear why you don't like Felicia joining the Carnations.

Nope, in my first post I expressed my doubt in validity of her plan. Still nobody gave me the answer to the question I put in red. People call me names, call me stubborn and dumb but still nobody answered the question.

In your first posts, you've made abundantly clear why you don't like Felicia joining the Carnations. You had an image of her as a seductress / man-eater... And then, you saw her in action, and that image crumbled. Now you think she's just a cheap whore.

I'm just following the suggestions of people here who believe that Felicia has joined the club because she likes submission and basically to degrade herself. I personally hope that her targets are different but in the current plot I don't see what else they can be. The declared "to make connections" or "to blackmail somebody"" don't feel feasible. That's why I keep asking this question.

Sorry my guy, I made a rule for myself to not engage in debate with people like you at this forum. Pointless activity. You and the others are so locked on your own opinion (probably some sort of defensive mechanism, idk I'm not a psychologist) there is no possible way to correct it. Have seen it multiple times already. I'm kind of impressed though. You managed to summon Gil and because of you the most polite and reasonable people here started to get personal. Quite an achievement.

See. I'm talking about people like you who cannot answer my question but instead speak with such arrogance down to me. Tells much about your integrity.

OK I see nobody has a clue about Felicia's plan, let's hope the Devs have some believable idea about that and reveal it by the end of the game.
I quit the discussion may be till the next update.

 

[Ottoeight]

thank you for your detailed explanation...when at Mina's house I told her about going on the date with Hana and she mentioned a potential threesome...does Mina need to be on the lesbian path to have a Mina/Hana path or just follow your spoiler? thanks again

Spoiler

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MY educated guess is that you can have:

Spoiler

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this is my guess because I haven't played any Hana girlfriend path with Edwin cheating on her and I haven't played any Mina path with low bicurious points.

 

[Ottoeight]

Are you still answering that dude?

Jeeeeeez

 

[ffive]

I'm NOT sure what happens if you are in Mina&Hana path and Mina has less than 3 bicurious points: my guess is that you miss their whole conversation in the parking lot - I've never played any gameplay with low Mina bicurious points.

The conversation still happens, it just doesn't include the part where Mina hits on Hana and makes confession she's attracted to both Hana and Edwin. The scene just wraps up after Hana realizes that Mina has a thing for Edwin, declares she won't back off just because of that, but also doesn't mind Mina being in the run.

it't extremely difficult for me to have Hana as just fuck buddies because I like her a little more than Mina but I'm fucking greedy I want both of them...so I'll try that path and if it doesn't work out( if I screw up) I'll be happy with Hana...thanks for the feedback

For me it's the bit of opposite -- i like Hana enough, but i like Mina more. So i won't turn down option to fool around with Hana but i won't be too heartbroken if i have to opt out down the road.

NGL, i was really hoping in that little scene where Mina talks with Edwin about Hana's kiss, and mentioning that Edwin has just asked her not to contact the other guy... to have option for Edwin to hint --if not just state point blank-- that he wouldn't mind at all if Mina has staked similar claim on him, exclusivity-wise. It was a tiny bit disappointing he just goes for the "well i told you all about it" technicality there. Read the room, nerd.

 

[Ungawa]

You compare common whorehouses with the extreme BDSM club where unspoken violence is carried out? If you know of such places you probably should report it to the authorities.

...No? I mean, how are you not getting that those places have elements of what the story uses?

You're off on a whole new tangent that doesn't match reality. How can you not figure out the simple argument that Las Vegas, Amsterdam, even Chicago, have these types of histories in the 30s or bring in film noir elements with movies like Casablanca and just look at them with such a narrow minded view when I was pointing out stories,

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which have a history of being in comics since the 1930s?

How are you not understanding this?

Movies like

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borrows some of those elements.

My point is that the writers are borrowing from those elements which have been in other things, and even further, the BDSM you were criticizing have been in other stories, not that it's a reflection of Felicia.

 

[Ungawa]

Look, I don't like dogpiling, but you're stuck in circular reasoning, and the discussion is going nowhere.

In your first posts, you've made abundantly clear why you don't like Felicia joining the Carnations. You had an image of her as a seductress / man-eater... And then, you saw her in action, and that image crumbled. Now you think she's just a cheap whore. Simple as. This is fine, it's your opinion, and it is valid as anyone else's; except your perception of the narrative, characters and motivations has been poisoned. And now not only you're deconstructing the game and rebuilding it around this negative core - you're also compelled to push your opinion as an objective fact. This plot point is, and I quote, poorly written, implemented, fake, disappointing. Felicia is now an awkward insert, schizophrenic, and a waste of good character (stilll quoting). And when people (let alone the authors themselves) suggest things are not so clear cut, and possibly a litte more subtle than that, you have to explain that you know better. Cue pages and pages of discussions, and now we're just repeating the same points ad nauseam.

I'm perfectly fine with discussions and critiques of the game, that's what this thread is for. Just keep in mind you're slowly joining the ranks of the "unreasonables" - you know, the guys who think that "the game is great, but I know better than the authors, because". We had the guy who thought oral sex is submissive, all women are manipulative whores, and kissing your partner makes you taste the sperm of their ex... and the guy that thinks Kathleen's scenes are sub-par blackmail femdom bullshit. This is not a badge of honor, and it doesn't make for a compelling "me against the fanboys" story.

This is kind of where I am now. The entire point of my comment is that you can see some of this in a real world context and even that was wildly misinterpreted. Fictional elements are ignored such as film noir movies that give inspiration and even real world elements that give examples to pull from on the crazy excesses of the rich and powerful are ignored.

All this to pigeonhole Felicia and narrow her down because she's built different. At this point, I'm just left scratching my head how the character is minimized when they have so much more to offer if people look at what the story provides.

 

[Ungawa]

Also Kat somehow hasnt lost her respect despite this:

Kat knows one thing. If you lose respect, you earn it back. You lay low, you plan and you figure out how you claw your way back to the top. And what did Kat do next when Ron decided to humiliate her?

Pay her back with a receipt in the next game.

Also, when you visit Kat, she tells you she keeps to herself because they judge women different. So Felicia coming into that lion's den is really a personal affront to everything she believes and built in the existence of the Club.

 

[ffive]

Also, when you visit Kat, she tells you she keeps to herself because they judge women different. So Felicia coming into that lion's den is really a personal affront to everything she believes and built in the existence of the Club.

Kat is like one of those conservative feminists who spent their whole life thinking the only way for them to have some power is to put up with the men taking the top spots, and putting up with that despite thinking themselves so much smarter and better... only to then see some young woman who "doesn't know any better" just come in and show that no, it absolutely didn't have to be that way. It's personal because it carries the possibility that it's Kat who's been the dumb one all her life.

 

[Ungawa]

Kat is like one of those conservative feminists who spent their whole life thinking the only way for them to have some power is to put up with the men taking the top spots, and putting up with that despite thinking themselves so much smarter and better... only to then see some young woman who "doesn't know any better" just come in and show that no, it absolutely didn't have to be that way. It's personal because it carries the possibility that it's Kat who's been the dumb one all her life.

I disagree. More that Felicia and Kat are foils to one another. In a world of mirrors, both reflect different choices and outcomes in a situation.

Felicia can bring about what she wants with charm and sexuality.

Kat brings about what she wants with pain and calculated decisions.

What they put into the story is intrigue. As TD stated before, Kat is the most honest sadist and quickly capable of analyzing and securing a weak point. Felicia doesn't have to try if you look into her in Week... 3? 2? Where she knows what Edwin wants. You want her dominant, she can be that or she can sus out and mother you just like Rosalind and play to that.

Kat isn't dumb and even if she's lost a bit, she'll fight to keep what's hers. And that's the club. What she says over and over to Felicia is that you can't think it's a picnic. And she's right. But to the both of them, they have something to prove.

In a sense, it's a clash of ideals. And you know that those have to be proven or disproven with experience. Not that it doesn't have to be that way, but you don't find out until that clash in seeing what's stronger or weaker since what worked for you continues to happen.

 

[mytest111]

Can this game run in sandboxie?
It crashes for me.

 

[ename144]

Correct me if I'm wrong but he hasn't even seen Felicia's hideout where the most important scenes happen?

AFAIK, Felicia will always take the MC to her rooftop garden of solitude after the interview with Elias in Week 2. What changes if the MC is on her path is that she actually explains her motivations and talks about the old art school closing.

Patrons aren't equal, there's hierarchy there.

Edwin: "...I thought that everyone was equal brothers around here."
Samson: "Ha, you thought wrong, kid! You put any two shitheads together and poof! You got a hierarchy on your hands."

Samson and that slimy teacher are at the bottom, Abel is at the very top.

There is also that ambassador who licks other's cum, how could anyone shake is hand is beyond me and yet they do it. There is no kink shaming there.

Also Kat somehow hasnt lost her respect despite this:

To be fair, only Isaak and Samson were present to see Veronica go to town on Kathleen.

That said, Kathleen is something of an interesting case. As others have noted, Harper tells the MC most patrons don't respect her: they play along with her because she's an owner of the Club. In other words, Kat skates by on their respect for Chuck and/or August. I think that's a big part of why she's so gung-ho about Abel's experiments - she sees it as a way to shake up the status quo and carve out her own empire on her terms. If other people get their feathers ruffled in the process, well... sadist.

Still, for Felicia the practical upshot of the current story is that the Club can be a useful framework for artificially boosting her respect if she manages to join it. Even if other patrons badmouth her in private, they'll likely still play ball with her and that's what she needs from them.

How can she monetize this sort of "connections" / "influence"?

"Hey fellow patron, I see you're in a pissing match with [Person X]. I know a surefire way to get his goat, and I'd be happy to tell you if you just take care of a few things for me in return."

There are a bunch of different variations on that theme, and obviously anything I say is ultimately speculation, but this is the simplest way to interpret Felicia's words. Being a member of the Club will give her access to influential people within the right circles, AND give them a reason to trust that she'll deliver on her promises. Once she's shown she can get results, she'll probably be able to expand her services to things like collecting intel or staging embarrassing events directly, so she won't be reliant on her current knowledge forever.

Is this a solid enough plan to persuade you she's a well written character? I suspect not. But I find it reasonable given what we know of her and the patrons.

 

[Ottoeight]

Kat is like one of those conservative feminists who spent their whole life thinking the only way for them to have some power is to put up with the men taking the top spots, and putting up with that despite thinking themselves so much smarter and better... only to then see some young woman who "doesn't know any better" just come in and show that no, it absolutely didn't have to be that way. It's personal because it carries the possibility that it's Kat who's been the dumb one all her life.

Kat was born into wealth and raised up as someone who was suppose to rule over the mass: she never had to put up with anyone, except her sister, I guess.

I disagree. More that Felicia and Kat are foils to one another. In a world of mirrors, both reflect different choices and outcomes in a situation.

Felicia can bring about what she wants with charm and sexuality.

Kat brings about what she wants with pain and calculated decisions.

What they put into the story is intrigue. As TD stated before, Kat is the most honest sadist and quickly capable of analyzing and securing a weak point. Felicia doesn't have to try if you look into her in Week... 3? 2? Where she knows what Edwin wants. You want her dominant, she can be that or she can sus out and mother you just like Rosalind and play to that.

Kat isn't dumb and even if she's lost a bit, she'll fight to keep what's hers. And that's the club. What she says over and over to Felicia is that you can't think it's a picnic. And she's right. But to the both of them, they have something to prove.

In a sense, it's a clash of ideals. And you know that those have to be proven or disproven with experience. Not that it doesn't have to be that way, but you don't find out until that clash in seeing what's stronger or weaker since what worked for you continues to happen.

Kat is from a wealthy and influential family, and Felicia is from a family of labourers from the rural South.

Now... just think what the Old Bitch might think of Felicia as a patron of arts and young artists.

 

[ffive]

Kat was born into wealth and raised up as someone who was suppose to rule over the mass: she never had to put up with anyone, except her sister, I guess.

I don't know; Kat didn't have any real power herself, being at best "her husband's wife", and what she has now (in terms of being able to exercise some actual power) is thanks to the hand me down that was her sister's venture.

 

[bamachine]

I know this is not setup as a harem game. I just hope in the end, we get a throuple between the MC, Hana and Mina. I can be friends with the three Carnations, besides I already creampied all three, so if I can help them with their problems, I am fine not being in a relationship with them.

 

[ReservoirCreature]

Damn, someone has actually heard of Running Wild!

 

[Nulldev]

Can this game run in sandboxie?
It crashes for me.

I use windows sandbox and works.

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[Ungawa]

Kat was born into wealth and raised up as someone who was suppose to rule over the mass: she never had to put up with anyone, except her sister, I guess.




Kat is from a wealthy and influential family, and Felicia is from a family of labourers from the rural South.

Now... just think what the Old Bitch might think of Felicia as a patron of arts and young artists.

I don't know; Kat didn't have any real power herself, being at best "her husband's wife", and what she has now (in terms of being able to exercise some actual power) is thanks to the hand me down that was her sister's venture.

Well, I try to always remember that everyone is in relationship to each other in some way. If you compare and contrast characters, you look at what one says and how the other is the opposite. So yes, Otto, that's correct. If Felicia is from the poor side of society climbing up, Kat was born into it. But I'm not sure how she feels on the arts. More that the story hasn't given us anything on that side. What works better is what's already there. Husbands? Both are inept with Kat having a loving husband she can gently push in the direction she wants while Felicia has a stubborn one that isn't swayed out of their issues.

And while Felicia climbed up by herself, Kat had her sadism to corrupt what she touched.

And before we say "Oh, it was Elias" don't forget that Felicia has gained influence in aristocracy through her own influence. But that's as a trophy wife. Now she's got higher ambitions which require more than that would allow. Thus her ambitions are moving in a new direction.

 

[sunaboz]

(...) To be fair, only Isaak and Samson were present to see Veronica go to town on Kathleen. (...)

True, although I doubt someone like Samson (who like Jim has hots for Kat and likes to comment how sexy she is) would keep his mouth shut.

BTW, besides that hierarchy quote Samson also said (about Dalia):

"Nah, she hangs around the more well-to-do members. Never seen the Empress Whore slum it with a pleb like myself."

(...) Harper tells the MC most patrons don't respect her (...)

Half is not most and Harper is just a whore so anything she says must be taken with a grain of salt because:

a) She's not privy to most conversations / businesses Kat has.

b) Most of the disrespectful things they say about Kat they don't say to her face and they say it while they have their dicks in Harper's mouth bragging how much better they are.

She thinks the old, dead fucks of the club would take her less seriously. Truth be told, half of them don't see her as an equal to begin with..."

And to be honest dick measurement is common among the patrons and they are not equal to begin with so what Harper said seems like a platitude to me. Samson and Isaak know they're not equal while people like Abel and Chuck think they're the top dog.

Sure, people like Otto might not think highly of her (then again Otto doesn't respect Chuck either), some might joke about her (Samson or Jim for example) but in the end they all shut up when she speaks during exhibition (Chuck being the exception). There is a reason why Abel cooperates with her or why Warren is most loyal to her (AFAWK) or why she's one of the co-owners of the club for as long as she is.

I guess that Edwin's comments during their BDSM sex has made almost everyone believe his words but the fact that Kathleen didn't seem fazed by them (even after she returned to her senses) suggests that they're farther from the truth than most might think.

tl;dr
IMO Kathleen is underestimated by most people here. Sure, she doesn't have Chuck's or Abel's accomplishments (and who does?) but she's a top-tier manager with maxed persuasion and manipulation techniques. Also:

"Just a middle-aged woman, over the hill... the wife of an elected official, playing with money your father made... running a charity made by your sister."

Eh... Probably most patrons there are as high as they are thanks to their parent's wealth (Chuck being one of the rare exceptions) and making a charity is nothing to be too proud of if you ask me.

 

[Ottoeight]

IMO Kathleen is underestimated by most people here. Sure, she doesn't have Chuck's or Abel's accomplishments (and who does?) but she's a top-tier manager with maxed persuasion and manipulation techniques. Also:

I do not underestimate her: the Exhibition is her toy.

She's the only one who would crush the Carnations just because she would enjoy it. August only cares for the "business", and Chuck is more interested in his own "games", and the Exhibition is Kathleen's game.

 

[Bueno]

The story is becoming a bit cluttered. I wish the focus would be back on the carnations progress with the club.