VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[Kameri]

I swear to god, every six months or so after an update, when we exhaust all the recent plot points, people start getting antsy and default back to the Victoria debate. It feels like we've had this exact same conversation on here 20 times.

Yeah what else to expect from this forum? Socioeconomic and politics of Pale Carnation?

 

[Turret]

Yeah what else to expect from this forum? Socioeconomic and politics of Pale Carnation?

But honour where it is due: The discussion here is usually more mature, interesting and good than in many other threads. There are game threads I visit just once in a while to see if something new goes on, because otherwise your sanity would be in dire straits.

 

[torpedogoat]

Yeah what else to expect from this forum? Socioeconomic and politics of Pale Carnation?

I would consider discussing update schedules and technical problems with the game and its mods, and otherwise just shutting up, a very reasonable alternative. A game's forum doesn't have to accrete 4000 posts per year just because it's popular. Without all this noise, the actually important posts would be a lot easier to find, removing the frequency of posts by people frustrated by the search function.

 

[lustforsex]

I would consider discussing update schedules and technical problems with the game and its mods, and otherwise just shutting up, a very reasonable alternative. A game's forum doesn't have to accrete 4000 posts per year just because it's popular. Without all this noise, the actually important posts would be a lot easier to find, removing the frequency of posts by people frustrated by the search function.

You mean everyone should shut up for the sake of people who don't like using search? Well, that would be the last reason I would shut up

But honour where it is due: The discussion here is usually more mature, interesting and good than in many other threads. There are game threads I visit just once in a while to see if something new goes on, because otherwise your sanity would be in dire straits.

It seems like people are starting to take this for granted.

 

[dolfe67]

Then it's your interpretation. You were just too sure about it, but nothing in the game says it directly.

And nothing contradicts it. I also think that he faps to his mom's videos. I would

And the author says no every time. What a men. Or girl?

Either way, a feminist!

 

[Whatever whenever]

a feminist

I think every man who sitting in this site are Femenist.

 

[Turret]

You know that what makes someone's personality interesting is different for everyone? Do we know the bigger picture of why Veronica is so stubborn about this gym, just like Felicia is about her chosen one.

Yes, we know why she is so stubborn about the gym and it is the main reason I consider her stupid. It is good to have emotional attachments and rules of conduct, but when you knowingly ruin your marriage and are drowning in debts because of the fraking gym you trained in to become a wotld class sports person, you should take a step back and seriously think about if there is another way without that gym! It gets worse in that unlike Rosi and Feli, who would gain what they want from a win, Veronica knows and tells us that even a win at PC would be nothing more than a shortlived band aid. She would continue to drown in debt once the money from PC would be gone.
And it has been mentioned several times in-game, that Veronica could simply toss the gym, take the hit and start over with another, better fitting gym including living her dream with it.
I let you decide for yourself if Veronica is stubborn, consistent and/or stupid here. My verdict is clear due to the overwhelming evidence.

Like is Elias beating her for her to chose this route if it is just his disinterest for her then it's all in her mind and she is being childish just like Veronica because just like Felicia she can control her situation with a little bit or more of compromise but no both are stubborn enough to do the worst Veronica probably because of something with her ex and Felicia because she isn't having "affection" from her "money bag", she needs to learn that "you can't have your cake and eat it too".

You either never played the Felicia route or deliberately distort the situation. Elias was dumb to not recognise the raw gem Felicia could be for him. He could have gotten everything from her and unwavering loyality into the future, had he saved or reopened Felicia´s old art school.
Flippantly speaking, while a serious investment, Elias is so rich, he could have taken the money for the school from the post stamp money without blinking and totally win over Felicia forever. Even scoring PR brownie points along the way.
BUT he did not and even taunted Felicia with her powerlessness and he could easily save the school but did not to show her who has the money. That is a bad and seriously dumb move even in a mainly business marriage.

 

[Idontplay]

And nothing contradicts it. I also think that he faps to his mom's videos. I would

I suppose that using this logic, we could say that Ian and Edwin are secretely gay, that Rosalind's daughter is actually her clone, that Ian's housekeeper (the one Ian bangs) is actually Ian's grandaughter from the future, that Edwin's mom is also his father, who stored his semen, then changed sex to impregnate him/herself and so on…

 

[Turret]

Hana is a mirror image of Edwin and will go one of the two routes Edwin's personal slut and partner in the club or his gf and a runaway from the club possibly after burning it down to ashes.

Doubtful! While these routes are certainly an option how the game might end, you overlook paths like MC/Hana together as a couple still in the club. Which is a valid route too so far.

Sophia is just a mirror image of Felicia using her body to move up and she has a cold personality towards everyone accept a select few for whom she might become more cold or even evil towards the others nothing in her personality makes her an interesting character for me.

I know you are all for absolutes, but that will not help in PC, not even for main LIs like Hana, where you see just two paths ahead. Even the "averages" like Rosi, our scammer mommy, have a story and personality which are interesting! That goes even more so for those PC characters with more multifaceted personalities.
I am sorry for you that you cannot or do not want to see it. Sophia is one of the best characters in game, as mentioned many times she is an amoral, calculating, eccentric, socially challenged genius with a nerdy core. Also by the hints strewn in handy when it gets "interesting", having her personal number might save our hide when push comes to shove.







Look at Abel´s phrasing here, he is offering and warning, in his usual cryptic way, that something will happen.

 

[ffive]

If you ask me, you can't just be obsessed with your mother's porn or any porn in general and not jerk off to it.

Of course you can. Self-denial is a kink, too.

 

[Whatever whenever]

Of course you can. Self-denial is a kink, too.

Its criminal

 

[ffive]

Its criminal

Technically, out of those two it's the incest that's criminal, literally.

 

[Emperor1]

(sigh) well i suppose can't have incest here, it was good journey while it lasted, I suppose i just gotta join the AI course and make a game myself (lol)

But seriously I am starting to understand why people start making AI games now

 

[Whatever whenever]

Technically, out of those two it's the incest that's criminal, literally.

Like suicide , but no one seems to go to jail if everything is mutual or I'm wrong?

 

[ffive]

Like suicide , but no one seems to go to jail if everything is mutual or I'm wrong?

Hmm i honestly don't know if there's such instances. I mean, in many places it is still defined as a crime by law, even if both parties consent to it. But i imagine there isn't many cases where people are charged with it, because they probably know better than flaunt it in public.

 

[torpedogoat]

Hmm i honestly don't know if there's such instances. I mean, in many places it is still defined as a crime by law, even if both parties consent to it. But i imagine there isn't many cases where people are charged with it, because they probably know better than flaunt it in public.

I just googled this, and here is what I found for my country:

It appears that it is primarily men who are being convicted for incest, and the typical reason appears to be that it is believed that they raped a female relative but that could not be proved. The actual incest is often proved by the fact that it resulted in children, some of whom die early. If the father of these children is known as a violent person, the prosecutor quite reasonably assumes that it was rape even if the victim refuses to testify or says it was consensual. In these cases a conviction for incest is a good substitute for a rape conviction. Also, producing children with a close relative is in some sense a crime against society, as there is an unusually high probability they will forever rely on benefits rather than becoming productive members of society. Women usually don't get charged for incest as it is typically not clear that they weren't a victim.

(I think obviously consensual incest not resulting in children is typically just ignored so long as the partners aren't too public about it. Our prosecutors are free to dismiss proceedings if it is not in the interest of the state to continue, e.g. because there was no victim. As they are not publicly elected, they have no incentive to prosecute cases of questionable value.)

 

[pinuz1]

Yes, we know why she is so stubborn about the gym and it is the main reason I consider her stupid. It is good to have emotional attachments and rules of conduct, but when you knowingly ruin your marriage and are drowning in debts because of the fraking gym you trained in to become a wotld class sports person, you should take a step back and seriously think about if there is another way without that gym!

I'm sorry, but Veronica's marriage didn't work because her wife wanted to have kids while she did not, it had nothing to do with her gym problems. Also thinking she has always been this attached to the gym is naive, I feel like after losing the person you love the most, you'd probably grab onto the things that still matter to you, so you don't end up losing those too-- and that's where the gym comes in for Veronica. If she loses it, she quite literally has nothing else going on in her life (or at least that's how she sees it). No one to love, she's told us she basically has no hobbies, and her dream of owning a gym would be gone too.

For Veronica losing this gym is not the same as how you see it. You think "oh just move on, and do other stuff with your life" but for Veronica the gym is all she has left of her previous glorious life, when she was proud of being an olympic athlete, had a wife, and her dream job.

Also, acting like one of the carnations is smarter than the other, when clearly all 3 are very stupid in their own ways, is not a good argument either.

 

[Turret]

I'm sorry, but Veronica's marriage didn't work because her wife wanted to have kids while she did not, it had nothing to do with her gym problems.

Great, a nicely composed discussion post. Let´s get into it. Pardon, but Veronica not wanting kids was simply the last straw which broke the camel´s back. Their relationship was already heavily taxed by the gym problems.

Also thinking she has always been this attached to the gym is naive, I feel like after losing the person you love the most, you'd probably grab onto the things that still matter to you, so you don't end up losing those too-- and that's where the gym comes in for Veronica. If she loses it, she quite literally has nothing else going on in her life (or at least that's how she sees it). No one to love, she's told us she basically has no hobbies, and her dream of owning a gym would be gone too.

Sorry, but that is not true. It has been mentioned in the game that Veronica could start anew with another gym and live her dream, never needing to go through the crap Kath throws her way.
Losing the current gym would surely feel devastating, but she can recover and live her dream with a more fitting gym. Even Samson, who is responsible for most of her woes (not all, the gym was already in dire straits even before Samson began to meddle), said that she could simply walk away, put all the baggage into the "shitty life experiences" drawer and start fresh, living her dream with the second gym.
But that she does not do so because of her massive stubborness.

For Veronica losing this gym is not the same as how you see it. You think "oh just move on, and do other stuff with your life" but for Veronica the gym is all she has left of her previous glorious life, when she was proud of being an olympic athlete, had a wife, and her dream job.

If you read my earlier post you know that I mentioned the emotional attachment part, why it is important to have such attachments and that it is not easy to let go. But Veronica is drowning in debt, lost her dream marriage in great part because of the gym woes, even making yourself a sexual clown for bored rich people will not help long. She has to get rid of that poisoned rooms.
And see above why Veronica could still live her dream.

 

[labmouseblues]

I'm sorry, but Veronica's marriage didn't work because her wife wanted to have kids while she did not, it had nothing to do with her gym problems.

Eh, Veronica implies her dogged attachment to the gym did play a part in breaking up her marriage.

Coupled with a few other comments from her, it gives me the impression her issue stems less from the fear of losing what remains of her glory days (although that's still a factor by her own admission), and more from the act of losing itself, as if her ego was formed entirely around the concept of winning, and losing undoes her very sense of self.

 

[pinuz1]

Great, a nicely composed discussion post. Let´s get into it. Pardon, but Veronica not wanting kids was simply the last straw which broke the camel´s back. Their relationship was already heavily taxed by the gym problems.

From what I remember the only bits of information we've been given about their relationship is that Veronica did not want kids while her wife did, I don't remember at which point do they talk about the relationship being heavily taxed by gym problems, would be great if you could remind me where that is mentioned.

Sorry, but that is not true. It has been mentioned in the game that Veronica could start anew with another gym and live her dream, never needing to go through the crap Kath throws her way.
Losing the current gym would surely feel devastating, but she can recover and live her dream with a more fitting gym. Even Samson, who is responsible for most of her woes (not all, the gym was already in dire straits even before Samson began to meddle), said that she could simply walk away, put all the baggage into the "shitty life experiences" drawer and start fresh, living her dream with the second gym.
But that she does not do so because of her massive stubborness.

If you read my earlier post you know that I mentioned the emotional attachment part, why it is important to have such attachments and that it is not easy to let go. But Veronica is drowning in debt, lost her dream marriage in great part because of the gym woes, even making yourself a sexual clown for bored rich people will not help long. She has to get rid of that poisoned rooms.
And see above why Veronica could still live her dream.

Again, as much as it might seem logical and I could agree with you that Veronica should just let go of her current gym, for her it means letting go of much more than just 1 thing, it's the same as admitting defeat, and she would much rather fight for it even if it means debasing herself, so yea, is she stubborn? of course, but pretty much all the Carnations are.

I don't remember exactly how it's said in game, but even Edwin at one point says something along the lines of: "The thing Kat was looking for in the carnations is that they all share 1 thing, Single-mindedness."

And hey, maybe the good ending for Veronica is to let go of the gym and decides to move forward and start a new one later on, or she actually manages to fight for it and keeps it a float. It's all up to however TD wants to handle that, and I would be fine with either or.

Also I hate to be asking for proof in such a long game, but where is it implied she could just let go of this gym and start a new one? I don't remember that either, it could very well be I'm just forgetting but I'd love if you or someone else could provide the proof of this being said ingame, I'd love to reread that part.

Also you mentioned her personality being very average and boring compared to the other girls in the game, and I'd also have to disagree with that, she's a very well built character and I find her personality very complex, she's the only girl we see put up such a strong facade, and we've also seen her crumble down in tears, to me her character is 10x more interesting than Rose's for example. Ofc, what you consider average or not it's up to you, so there's no point on arguing this, but I just wanted to give my own opinion.

edit:

Eh, Veronica implies her dogged attachment to the gym did play a part in breaking up her marriage.

Coupled with a few other comments from her, it gives me the impression her issue stems less from the fear of losing what remains of her glory days (although that's still a factor by her own admission), and more from the act of losing itself, as if her ego was formed entirely around the concept of winning, and losing undoes her very sense of self.

Hmm I might need to reread that then, but now that you mention it, it does ring to me that at some point she might mention something like that.

and that other stuff you mention, I agree with, that's the whole deal with her character, she does not want to accept defeat.