VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.6 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[labmouseblues]

I'm sorry, but Veronica's marriage didn't work because her wife wanted to have kids while she did not, it had nothing to do with her gym problems.

Eh, Veronica implies her dogged attachment to the gym did play a part in breaking up her marriage.

Coupled with a few other comments from her, it gives me the impression her issue stems less from the fear of losing what remains of her glory days (although that's still a factor by her own admission), and more from the act of losing itself, as if her ego was formed entirely around the concept of winning, and losing undoes her very sense of self.

 

[pinuz1]

Great, a nicely composed discussion post. Let´s get into it. Pardon, but Veronica not wanting kids was simply the last straw which broke the camel´s back. Their relationship was already heavily taxed by the gym problems.

From what I remember the only bits of information we've been given about their relationship is that Veronica did not want kids while her wife did, I don't remember at which point do they talk about the relationship being heavily taxed by gym problems, would be great if you could remind me where that is mentioned.

Sorry, but that is not true. It has been mentioned in the game that Veronica could start anew with another gym and live her dream, never needing to go through the crap Kath throws her way.
Losing the current gym would surely feel devastating, but she can recover and live her dream with a more fitting gym. Even Samson, who is responsible for most of her woes (not all, the gym was already in dire straits even before Samson began to meddle), said that she could simply walk away, put all the baggage into the "shitty life experiences" drawer and start fresh, living her dream with the second gym.
But that she does not do so because of her massive stubborness.

If you read my earlier post you know that I mentioned the emotional attachment part, why it is important to have such attachments and that it is not easy to let go. But Veronica is drowning in debt, lost her dream marriage in great part because of the gym woes, even making yourself a sexual clown for bored rich people will not help long. She has to get rid of that poisoned rooms.
And see above why Veronica could still live her dream.

Again, as much as it might seem logical and I could agree with you that Veronica should just let go of her current gym, for her it means letting go of much more than just 1 thing, it's the same as admitting defeat, and she would much rather fight for it even if it means debasing herself, so yea, is she stubborn? of course, but pretty much all the Carnations are.

I don't remember exactly how it's said in game, but even Edwin at one point says something along the lines of: "The thing Kat was looking for in the carnations is that they all share 1 thing, Single-mindedness."

And hey, maybe the good ending for Veronica is to let go of the gym and decides to move forward and start a new one later on, or she actually manages to fight for it and keeps it a float. It's all up to however TD wants to handle that, and I would be fine with either or.

Also I hate to be asking for proof in such a long game, but where is it implied she could just let go of this gym and start a new one? I don't remember that either, it could very well be I'm just forgetting but I'd love if you or someone else could provide the proof of this being said ingame, I'd love to reread that part.

Also you mentioned her personality being very average and boring compared to the other girls in the game, and I'd also have to disagree with that, she's a very well built character and I find her personality very complex, she's the only girl we see put up such a strong facade, and we've also seen her crumble down in tears, to me her character is 10x more interesting than Rose's for example. Ofc, what you consider average or not it's up to you, so there's no point on arguing this, but I just wanted to give my own opinion.

edit:

Eh, Veronica implies her dogged attachment to the gym did play a part in breaking up her marriage.

Coupled with a few other comments from her, it gives me the impression her issue stems less from the fear of losing what remains of her glory days (although that's still a factor by her own admission), and more from the act of losing itself, as if her ego was formed entirely around the concept of winning, and losing undoes her very sense of self.

Hmm I might need to reread that then, but now that you mention it, it does ring to me that at some point she might mention something like that.

and that other stuff you mention, I agree with, that's the whole deal with her character, she does not want to accept defeat.

 

[labmouseblues]

where is it implied she could just let go of this gym and start a new one?

I think Samson implies as much during the sauna talk? I find the possibility rather unlikely. If she's up to her tits in debt, as Kath put it, she's not walking away from her current gym with the kind of startup money she'd need to get another joint running.

it does ring to me that at some point she might mention something like that.

She mentions it sometime during the drunk talk with the protagonist after the lesbian bar date.

 

[TD1900]

Also thinking she has always been this attached to the gym is naive, I feel like after losing the person you love the most, you'd probably grab onto the things that still matter to you, so you don't end up losing those too-- and that's where the gym comes in for Veronica.

This is a big factor, yes, and it magnifies her central character flaw of refusing to admit defeat. Obviously if she was still married, or had any other thing going on in her life, taking a hail mary on a sex club would seem insane to her.

 

[Kameri]

I imagine Veronica winning the summer exhibition, getting a big boost for her gym, then going a whole year without profit, sinking into massive debt again, and ending up back at the summer exhibition for a second try.

Veronica: I PLAYED THIS GAME BEFORE!

 

[alex13_zen]

Will the game continue with new characters after this summer exhibition ends? I really wish it does

 

[Meiri]

Will the game continue with new characters after this summer exhibition ends? I really wish it does

Seems a bit late in the story to be introducing new characters, unless you mean in a sequel.

 

[DETROIT123_io]

I don't remember Edwin jacking it to his mom, I do however remember him saying he frequently jerks it while imagining Ian's mom!
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WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?

 

[UmbralKnight]

really, relegating Veronica to fetish bait seems rather like throwing stones in a glass house, especially while championing Sophia at the same time.

Quite Ironic isn't it ?

Yes, we know why she is so stubborn about the gym and it is the main reason I consider her stupid. It is good to have emotional attachments and rules of conduct, but when you knowingly ruin your marriage and are drowning in debts because of the fraking gym you trained in to become a wotld class sports person, you should take a step back and seriously think about if there is another way without that gym! It gets worse in that unlike Rosi and Feli, who would gain what they want from a win, Veronica knows and tells us that even a win at PC would be nothing more than a shortlived band aid. She would continue to drown in debt once the money from PC would be gone.
And it has been mentioned several times in-game, that Veronica could simply toss the gym, take the hit and start over with another, better fitting gym including living her dream with it.
I let you decide for yourself if Veronica is stubborn, consistent and/or stupid here. My verdict is clear due to the overwhelming evidence.
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View attachment 5098773

You either never played the Felicia route or deliberately distort the situation. Elias was dumb to not recognise the raw gem Felicia could be for him. He could have gotten everything from her and unwavering loyality into the future, had he saved or reopened Felicia´s old art school.
Flippantly speaking, while a serious investment, Elias is so rich, he could have taken the money for the school from the post stamp money without blinking and totally win over Felicia forever. Even scoring PR brownie points along the way.
BUT he did not and even taunted Felicia with her powerlessness and he could easily save the school but did not to show her who has the money. That is a bad and seriously dumb move even in a mainly business marriage.

I think you and I had this exact argument few months ago

I said it then and i will say it again.
Yes ,veronica is very stubborn but definitely not stupid.
she is the "straight man" amongst the 3 carnations
call it a role reversal/inversion if you will

unlike the others she can file for an insolvency and still walk away
but doesn't want to because it's the only remaining part of her once famous and successful sports career
she wants to leave behind some kind of legacy
that's why she is so stubborn about not selling the gym and just like most middle aged straightmen she is going through a midlife crisis that cost her marriage,her wife left her , her buisness is in deep trouble ,she doesn't have any friends , she knows that her sports glory days are behind her ,she kind of feels bad about nothing having kids ,she is desperate enough that she is picking up random chicks at the bar
to fill the emptyness of her life and now that her ex is getting married
she is on a downward spiral and her crashout is inevitable even if she didn't become a carnation

her life is probably the depressing amongst the 3 carnations
rosie is desperate and vulnerable yes but atleast she has her daughter

felicia's marriage is a lie and an act ,she is contractually forced to act like a good trophy wife by her husband but even she has her own hobbies ,friends like mina and her family
she even says she loves her step-children very much.

Veronica on the other hand has noone.
even her coach the only last possible friend she has left betrayed her already.

that's why she is so determined to save her gym

ironically she gives the best piece of advice to the MC that's the best solution to her own problem

when the MC asks advice to Veronica about his mother selling their house and moving on

she agrees that it's a good thing for victoria and her moving on with her own life now that the MC is all grown up and has no need for the house
now that she no longer needs it even though the MC has a lot of sentimental value attached to the house

so maybe in the future the best course of action for veronica is to move on with her life past the gym too
now that that phase of her life is over

I'm sorry, but Veronica's marriage didn't work because her wife wanted to have kids while she did not, it had nothing to do with her gym problems. Also thinking she has always been this attached to the gym is naive, I feel like after losing the person you love the most, you'd probably grab onto the things that still matter to you, so you don't end up losing those too-- and that's where the gym comes in for Veronica. If she loses it, she quite literally has nothing else going on in her life (or at least that's how she sees it). No one to love, she's told us she basically has no hobbies, and her dream of owning a gym would be gone too.

For Veronica losing this gym is not the same as how you see it. You think "oh just move on, and do other stuff with your life" but for Veronica the gym is all she has left of her previous glorious life, when she was proud of being an olympic athlete, had a wife, and her dream job.

Also, acting like one of the carnations is smarter than the other, when clearly all 3 are very stupid in their own ways, is not a good argument either.

well, technically we don't know that
yes the topic of having children is one of the causes for her marriage breaking down

but in the diner scene she never explicitly says she doesn't want kids
she says "it hasn't happened to us" and she is kind of sad about it afterwards

so either they couldn't physically have children because of biological issues or they didn't want children because of commitment issues

Either way it's still a very touchy subject for her

 

[Vic Sage]

WHEN DID THIS HAPPEN?

It will happen the morning after if you fail the Hana date

 

[Turret]

Also I hate to be asking for proof in such a long game, but where is it implied she could just let go of this gym and start a new one? I don't remember that either, it could very well be I'm just forgetting but I'd love if you or someone else could provide the proof of this being said ingame, I'd love to reread that part.

One event for example where it is mentioned I posted yesterday, since I had the screenshots still available. It is during a talk with Samson in the sauna.

Also you mentioned her personality being very average and boring compared to the other girls in the game, and I'd also have to disagree with that, she's a very well built character and I find her personality very complex, she's the only girl we see put up such a strong facade, and we've also seen her crumble down in tears, to me her character is 10x more interesting than Rose's for example. Ofc, what you consider average or not it's up to you, so there's no point on arguing this, but I just wanted to give my own opinion.

You might have also seen my post where I wrote that even the comparatively "average" characters in PC are interesting, simply just not quite as much as those characters TD totally nailed. Oh, and it seems we agree on that Rosi might be perfect for the Milf lovers, but that her personality and history is rather average among the major characters.

 

[Kameri]

she is going through a midlife crisis that cost her marriage,her wife left her , her buisness is in deep trouble ,she doesn't have any friends , she knows that her sports glory days are behind her ,she kind of feels bad about nothing having kids ,she is desperate enough that she is picking up random chicks at the bar
to fill the emptyness of her life and now that her ex is getting married
she is on a downward spiral and her crashout is inevitable even if she didn't become a carnation

When I played Felicia’s route, I felt the most intrigued. Rose’s route gave me this odd sense of hope, but Veronica’s route left me with a creeping sadness I couldn’t quite place. Her confidence and strong will almost hide it, until you actually lay out everything she’s been through.

Yeah, I totally agree, she’s far from an “average” character. It’s one of those layers that’s invisible to casual eyes until someone points it out.

 

[Fapparition]

One event for example where it is mentioned I posted yesterday, since I had the screenshots still available. It is during a talk with Samson in the sauna.

You might have also seen my post where I wrote that even the comparatively "average" characters in PC are interesting, simply just not quite as much as those characters TD totally nailed. Oh, and it seems we agree on that Rosi might be perfect for the Milf lovers, but that her personality and history is rather average among the major characters.

I'm sorry, but it sounds like you've been cornered and now you're trying to weasel your way out. Can you give us an example of a character that you think TD nailed? Because I personally think Veronica is that character.

 

[Turret]

I'm sorry, but it sounds like you've been cornered and now you're trying to weasel your way out. Can you give us an example of a character that you think TD nailed? Because I personally think Veronica is that character.

No, I do not! You can see several of my previous posts that I mentioned even the average characters in PC are interesting, simply less interesting than those TD bullseyed.
Examples where TD hit right from the start would Felicia, Sophia, Hana, even Kath when it comes to the negative ones. For example Kath, despite being in a very cushy position for a functional sadist, is now trying to overthrow her partners in PC. Something that is not per se logical, but nearly textbook bahaviour for sadists/psychopaths, who feel too sure about their position in life. If Kath would keep her feet still, she woud be in a nearly unassailable position to continue her sadistic games for years or decades.

 

[strangelandQQ]

if you fail the Hana date

 

[prpa]

You keep coming back to convince others that specific characters should be interesting for them too and other characters are average (but also interesting because they are in PC, doesn't make sense but that's what you said) because to you it's the universal truth/fact. Let's assume you are correct then the question arises that why did the developer gave these characters such interesting personalities but left others with average ones?

I personally believe they gave Felicia and Hana (in that order) most attention and Rose has their least attention but I don't know why that is the case, I could be wrong but that's what I felt when I played this game.

Nevertheless to me Rose, Veronica and Hana are the most interesting characters (in that order) in this game, no matter how much less or more attention the developers gave to them.

Oh, get off it, like you're one to talk. You were trolling here with your alt accounts and trashing Felicia for how long? You turned this thread into a dumpster fire. But now he says he finds Veronica boring, and suddenly you're the one who's offended?

 

[Turret]

You keep coming back to convince others that specific characters should be interesting for them too and other characters are average (but also interesting because they are in PC, doesn't make sense but that's what you said)

I do not want to convince you or others that a specific character should be interesting. If I do nice, if I do not that life. I think there is a missunderstanding due to different native languages and the fact that I look on the characters of PC as both a player and hobby writer.
Let me phrase it like this: Very few other AVNs have the writing quality of Pale Carnations, so even side characters like nerv trampler Jerrica or poison pediatrician Grace have some interest to them. Among PCs major characters/characters with scenes all are more interesting than many main characters from other AVNs.
On the major characters I look, as said, both with the eyes of a player and writer. How are they, what makes them tick, what are their histories, does it fit, how do I like this permutation and so on. And TD absolutely aced Felicia, Hana, Sophia, Kath, Mina, Vicki, even Ian, August, Chuck and Abel, our dark humanitarian. They all have their pros and cons, drives and goals, fitting to their personalities and how they like to reach them.

Veronica´s woes, while interesting as a story of betrayal, backstabbing, stupidity and stubborness, are more of a cautionary tale by TD! Veronica has many things going for her, but it is her overstrong stubbornness which is leading her down the way to hell! I am a taurus, so I know very well being steadfast, stubborn, "Where´s a will, there´s a way", but Veronica tops this easily, where I can just shake me head.
There are topics where she is so singleminded that she goes towards selfdestruction. It is a coin toss if she is really stupid or her stubbornness makes her unable to see a solution. She ruined her happy marriage, is drowning slowly in debt for a couple rooms filled with gym gear and there is a solution which let´s her living her dream, just in another, better fitting gym!
Instead of chosing the smart choice, no matter how emotionally taxing, she is now in a competition, which can be degrading in the extreme and will not help her long at all! And Veronica´s crowning moment of stupid or living in another universe came when she proposed to Feli and Rosi to go on strike!

 

[Kameri]

Oh, get off it, like you're one to talk. You were trolling here with your alt accounts and trashing Felicia for how long? You turned this thread into a dumpster fire. But now he says he finds Veronica boring, and suddenly you're the one who's offended?

Is it really that multiple accounts dude? How can you tell? I'm not defending him but that multiple accounts dude was more... Unhinged

 

[Turret]

Is it really that multiple accounts dude? How can you tell? I'm not defending him but that multiple accounts dude was more... Unhinged

If you have multiple accounts, if you are so inclined, you can go off the rails, over the top, being an assi, idiot or troll, you still have reserves. If you are down to 1-2 accounts your troll career is in serious jeopardy. This can make some trolls more careful than they otherwise would be.

 

[prpa]

Is it really that multiple accounts dude? How can you tell? I'm not defending him but that multiple accounts dude was more... Unhinged

His writing style, use of commas and periods, and most notably his opinions of Felicia (though more subdued) are still apparent. Since new accounts are banned from posting in this thread, he keeps his trolling more subtle to avoid losing his main account.